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Author Topic: [PC] Torchlight 2 (Review on pp5)  (Read 18382 times)
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rittchard
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« Reply #160 on: July 18, 2012, 11:00:07 PM »

Quote from: CeeKay on July 18, 2012, 08:32:21 PM

Quote from: EngineNo9 on July 18, 2012, 04:31:13 PM

The PC Gamer preview they wrote based on the beta has me even more excited for this game.  It sounds like for all the decisions Blizzard made for Diablo 3 about streamlining character customization and loot wonkiness to satisfy the auction house, the Torchlight 2 guys have made the opposite decision. 

I think them not rushing this out to beat Diablo 3 to the market is going to be a good thing, as they can look at all the complaints and do better.  sure, I was annoyed with it taking so long, but by the time it's released and put on sale it should have a nice polish to it.

More importantly I think these are some of the "old school" D2 guys who really understood what made D2 so great over the long haul.  The PC Gamer article(s), as well as the dev blog, really make it clear that they truly understand the concept of individual investment into a character/build, rewarding the player for making tough choices and commitments. 

Quote
I'll take the Engineer's Machinegun bot as a quick example (subject to change, of course). At 5 points, his shots begin ricocheting. At 10, they pierce, and at 15 they are tripled. So, a level 15 machinegun bot skill has triple, piercing, ricocheting shots. Way cooler than level 1. Of course, damage, and other properties are improved with every point of investment, but there's a bigger jump every 5. I should stress that we didn't REMOVE cool stuff from skills and ball it all up to make the tiers neater. We have tried to make sure that the skills are designed to be cool as is, and just get a notable 'extra' at the tiers.
 

What many people who before D3 released failed to understand is how that change in mentality would affect the longevity of the game, both in terms of replayability and in how it profoundly changes the loot system.  Freezing a skill's potential to evolve and become cooler than it started at is/was D3's biggest flaw IMHO; I am really happy TL2 is sticking with a more D2-like system.
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« Reply #161 on: July 18, 2012, 11:26:29 PM »

Quote from: rittchard on July 18, 2012, 11:00:07 PM

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I'll take the Engineer's Machinegun bot as a quick example (subject to change, of course). At 5 points, his shots begin ricocheting. At 10, they pierce, and at 15 they are tripled. So, a level 15 machinegun bot skill has triple, piercing, ricocheting shots. Way cooler than level 1. Of course, damage, and other properties are improved with every point of investment, but there's a bigger jump every 5. I should stress that we didn't REMOVE cool stuff from skills and ball it all up to make the tiers neater. We have tried to make sure that the skills are designed to be cool as is, and just get a notable 'extra' at the tiers.
 

What many people who before D3 released failed to understand is how that change in mentality would affect the longevity of the game, both in terms of replayability and in how it profoundly changes the loot system.  Freezing a skill's potential to evolve and become cooler than it started at is/was D3's biggest flaw IMHO; I am really happy TL2 is sticking with a more D2-like system.

I'm not sure what you mean about D3's skills.  They improve in a much more dramatic way than in D2 and Torchlight.  With each rune you unlock, the skill changes drastically, you get a new animation or look for the skill, and it can often change the way you use other skills or even your whole playstyle.  In D2 and Torchlight, the skill just gets a few more damage points or a little bit more range.  Torchlight 2's improving skill system sounds to me like a variation of D3's rune system, where skills actually change over time rather than simply becoming more powerful.
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« Reply #162 on: July 19, 2012, 03:28:30 PM »

It sounds like the skill upgrades in Torchlight 2 are cumulative, which is great.  Skills in D3 don't necessarily get better the more you level, they just unlock new versions of that skill via runes that are all mutually exclusive of each other.  It's almost like getting an entirely new skill, but without the payoff of being able to use the previous upgrades.  Sure, it forces the player to make choices on skill/rune load-outs (which can offer more flexiblity), but after playing D3 since launch, I think I prefer the older, more traditional skill development of previous games.  If D3 allowed runes within the same skill to be combined with cumulative effects, that would be cool.     
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« Reply #163 on: July 20, 2012, 08:21:24 PM »

Quote from: EddieA on July 18, 2012, 11:26:29 PM

Quote from: rittchard on July 18, 2012, 11:00:07 PM

Quote
I'll take the Engineer's Machinegun bot as a quick example (subject to change, of course). At 5 points, his shots begin ricocheting. At 10, they pierce, and at 15 they are tripled. So, a level 15 machinegun bot skill has triple, piercing, ricocheting shots. Way cooler than level 1. Of course, damage, and other properties are improved with every point of investment, but there's a bigger jump every 5. I should stress that we didn't REMOVE cool stuff from skills and ball it all up to make the tiers neater. We have tried to make sure that the skills are designed to be cool as is, and just get a notable 'extra' at the tiers.
 

What many people who before D3 released failed to understand is how that change in mentality would affect the longevity of the game, both in terms of replayability and in how it profoundly changes the loot system.  Freezing a skill's potential to evolve and become cooler than it started at is/was D3's biggest flaw IMHO; I am really happy TL2 is sticking with a more D2-like system.

I'm not sure what you mean about D3's skills.  They improve in a much more dramatic way than in D2 and Torchlight.  With each rune you unlock, the skill changes drastically, you get a new animation or look for the skill, and it can often change the way you use other skills or even your whole playstyle.  In D2 and Torchlight, the skill just gets a few more damage points or a little bit more range.  Torchlight 2's improving skill system sounds to me like a variation of D3's rune system, where skills actually change over time rather than simply becoming more powerful.

I'm not talking about "skills" the way D3 structured it per se; the fact is just as Roguetad mentioned, the Runeskills ARE the skills.  The base skill is a simple placeholder, as there is absolutely no reason to use the base skill once you've "unlocked" the first rune.  Compare it to the description from TL2 above.  In D3 each of the variants (multiple shots, better piercing, etc) would be considered a separate runeskill which you'd have to choose from.  There's no investment on your part and no variation in terms of the relative power that you can affect (except through base damage).  In TL2's system, it's your personal investment choices that allow you to keep improving upon the base skill (including cumulative effects), so much so that you might make the commitment to base your entire build around that particular skill.  In D3, the runeskill creates one variant that has the same fixed effect (example: Puncturing arrow which gives a higher chance to pierce).  For the majority of runeskills there is nothing I can do to affect or change them any further, and that's partially why loot drops became stale so quickly. 

Another good example of how D3's skill system can actually be frustratingly limiting.  On my wizard, I want to create a cold-based wizard with one of the cornerstone skills being the Frost Hydra.  In a system like TL2's presumably I'd be able to save points and get gear to work my way to that ability asap, and enhance it as much as I possibly can.  Maybe eventually I can summon two hydras, and have them last twice as long and fire twice as fast.  At bare minimum I know my choices and decisions will help lead me to create the character I want and focus on the skills I've made a commitment to.  In D3, the variant unlocks at level 46 and there's nothing I can ever do to change when I get access to it.  Which means my imagined build can never be played in normal difficult (probably won't see the light of day til near the end of Nightmare.  Not to mention once I've "unlocked" it, I can never make it any more effective or add any additional effects.
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« Reply #164 on: July 21, 2012, 01:01:48 AM »

I'm not sure about TL2, but skills were locked by level in Torchlight and Diablo 2 limited skills by requiring you to learn other skills first.  If the Frost Hydra skill you mentioned were a high-level skill, you'd still be locked out of it for a majority of the game and the game would still dictate when you were able to use it.  I can see what you're saying about not being able to improve a skill once you get it, but I don't think that it's necessarily better to be able to do so.  I'd rather have a skill that was constantly changing into different versions than one that just got a few more points of damage.
When I change skills upon levelling up in D3, it almost feels like I'm playing a completely different character, and I never felt anything like that in D2 or TL.  In most action RPGs, I usually end up just using a few skills throughout the game, and this always gets boring.  I've already spent more time playing D3 than I did playing D2, and I haven't been bored or gotten burned out once.  For me, D3 gives me the ability to play lots of different types of characters without the massive time investment it would require to play all those different builds, and I love that about the game.  Just taking one of each type of character through Normal and Nightmare is going to give me a couple hundred of hours with the game, and that's plenty for me.
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« Reply #165 on: July 21, 2012, 04:42:41 AM »

I think it will be worth the $20  smile

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« Reply #166 on: July 21, 2012, 03:00:50 PM »

Quote from: EngineNo9 on July 21, 2012, 04:42:41 AM

I think it will be worth the $20  smile



This is encouraging to me.  My biggwt problem with TL1 is that it was sooooooo repetitious staring at the same area and 2-3 monster models for hours on end.  More variety will go a long way towards keeping my interest over the long haul.
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« Reply #167 on: August 09, 2012, 05:30:10 PM »

I've been away. Travis posted a blog Aug. 3 with a bit of an update. Bug fixes are usually boring to read; I underlined some things that stood out to me (you might see other things of interest too).

Not A Blog Redux IV
http://forums.runicgames.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=31528
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I'm now done with everything in Act 2 except the last boss - which I hope to mostly complete over the weekend. There will probably be a few trailing animations and FX that get picked up on Monday, but my aim is to be wrapped on Act 2 at that point. This makes me very happy. I think Act 2 has turned out really well, and am pretty jazzed about how very different it feels from the other acts. I was hoping to be done with the whole Act by the end of the week, but didn't quite make it, largely due to some unexpected bugs cropping up that chewed up a good day and a half of time.

We ended up putting together some new art this week for the three superchampions in Act 2 part 2 ( which are part of a boss chain ), and they came out pretty cool. Their previous incarnation was 'meh', and this is a big improvement.

This isn't a comprehensive list of other tasks - but here goes.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This week Marsh and I ended up spending a good bit of time doing some bugfixing.

*There was an erratic issue with UI sorting which we found, due to an uninitialized variable somewhere.
*There were some 'dirty pathnode' occupation issues in warping situations that I fixed.
*We fixed an issue with dead boss units on level loads triggering certain events they shouldn't.
*We found a problem with ai-animations not properly updating when offscreen for level owners in certain situations.
*I fixed improper culling of scaled animated background room pieces. I fixed several problems with quest flags not restoring properly.
*We had a problem with magic find where unnaturally high boosts (which we sometimes use in spawnclasses to guarantee nice items) could pass the max limit and cause unexpected results. I added in protective code which prevents that but maintains the ratio between item types.
*I made it possible for any unit to consistently ignore your pet as a targetable.
*Marsh added the ability to have footstep particles ( he really needed it for one of his boss battles, because it felt lame not to have splashes ). I added some to desert and snowy regions after that went in.
*Some music fading issues with boss battles were resolved.
*I fixed some problems with certain kind of local only triggerable units ping ponging messages in multiplayer
*Matt Uelmen [of Diablo I/II music/sounds fame-bj] put together a even more cool ambient sounds which Patrick integrated
*Some special modifications were made to the level running up to the last Act 2 boss to make it cooler.
*Erich did some more fishing hole work and some unique work
*Erich did some magic find balance and made merchants cooler
*Matt worked on NG+ UI stuff and some trailing portal/waypoint UI fixes.
*Achievements are now being hooked up.
*A new unit was made for the last Act 2 boss battle I'm working on right now which should make it much, much cooler.
*Marsh continued to make good progress on his act and fixed bugs
*Everyone everywhere continued with polish.
*Jeff added some more face and hair options, among other things

My plan for next week is to focus almost entirely on skill tree polish for the classes (although I may switch gears throughout the week to help Marsh out on Act 3 )
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« Reply #168 on: August 09, 2012, 05:42:14 PM »

And here's a June 2012 interview just posted Aug. 7 (I assume either there was an embargo or maybe gamer living has a print magazine, something like that?) with Max Schaefer:

From Tristram To Torchlight – An Interview With Max Schaefer
http://gamerliving.net/archives/11526
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Erik Miller: So with the developer tools, are we talking level creation and stuff like that?

MS: Everything.  It’s literally the complete set that we use to make the game.  It’s everything from UI mods, levels, quests, skills, animations. We are even giving you a pre-rigged character, so you can mod it and make an entirely new character class if you want.   So they’re super, super powerful.  But the downside is that they’re made for us and not the public, so it’ll take some doing, but they’re really powerful.  And with multiplayer, it’s much more fun to make a mod too, because you play it with people and share it more directly with people.  We expect there to be a pretty big response.

EM: With all the mods flying around, how will the sharing work?

MS: There will emerge a repository of files.  It’ll be on one of the fan sites; we can’t do it ourselves, because we don’t know if someone’s taken IP from other games.  So we don’t want to be in the business of policing their content all the time.   So we’re just going to say the fan site will handle the mods, and you can go there.  We’ll make it easy to see what mods are installed, and make it easy to install and uninstall it.  So you’ll see joining or creating a game, what mods that people are playing with and you’ll be able to easily go get those mods.
I recall Iron Lore kind of had a similar idea with Titan Quest but in my experience the tools weren't user-friendly enough, and they didn't have an easy way to install/uninstall stuff (users came up with some tools to ease that, but I can't really speak from experience on those)

Max talks about the proximity to D3's release being a good thing (T3 pre-orders apparently shot up 40% the day D3 released). He's very kind to it, although he seems to want to emphasize they'll make sure Torchlight II is different from it.
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WA: Now I do have to ask, because Diablo and Diablo II are your babies.  Now that Diablo III is out… have you guys…

MS: It’s weird. It’s weird seeing someone else make the game. You know what my history is.  But I think they did a really great job.  I’m happy to see that [Diablo III] didn’t suck, that was my fear.  My fear wasn’t that it’d be very good; my fear was that it was going to suck, you know.  The same way that they’re benefiting us now, so if they sucked, it’d hurt us.  My biggest relief is that it didn’t suck.   And it’s super slick; We’ve all been  playing it, obviously.

It’s made a lot of different decisions than we’ve made, which is also good because we wanted to keep that big distinction between us.  But yeah, it’s kind of surreal.  In a way, I’m kind of glad that I didn’t have to do it, because how do you meet the expectations of the Diablo crowd after 10 years, you know?  Wow, talk about pressure.

WA: So, obviously you’ve played the game.  What’s your favourite thing about Diablo III that they’ve changed from the original?

MS: I like the way that they’re telling the story during the course of the game. I don’t feel that it’s being forced on me, and yet it’s kind of in a compelling way that it’s being unfolded.  I think they did a really great job on that.  The art work is great.  Especially the background, it’s super detailed.  A lot of the time, I’d just stop and just explore around rather than play the game.  And it’s slick, you play it and it’s like, “Oh hey, I’m playing Diablo.” (laughs
And the future...
Quote
WA: So, you know with Torchlight II, you’re almost wrapped up.  I know that with developers, it’s kind of like, you get to the end of the line and everybody’s gonna start asking you for what’s the next big thing. Do you have any ideas out there?

MS: There’s 30 people in our company and we’ve got 30 different ideas of what should happen next. And we’re deliberately not trying to make a decision about that now. We want to see how it does, what people are clamoring for. Do they want an expansion of this?  And if we do Diablo numbers and sell six million copies, we’re going to do an expansion – we’re not idiots (laughs).  So we’re gonna see how that goes.

See if people are clamoring for tablet versions or console versions.  And also kind of judge our mental state, you know, after doing two Torchlights in a row, you might want to do something else a little while and then come back to Torchlight.  We’re going to let the dust settle.

We’re going to do the Mac version after this, Mac port, new language translations, release the modding tool, fix all the problems that happened in our Error 37 (or whatever our equivalent’s gonna be), and then kind of gauge what we wanna do and what the world looks like.  But yeah, there’s all sorts of ideas for expansions to new stuff altogether on MMO, consoles, tablets – everyone’s got ideas.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 05:44:54 PM by Blackjack » Logged

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« Reply #169 on: August 25, 2012, 11:52:00 AM »

Runic has said we'll learn the release date on August 31.
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« Reply #170 on: August 25, 2012, 02:51:07 PM »

Quote from: EddieA on August 25, 2012, 11:52:00 AM

Runic has said we'll learn the release date on August 31.

If it's not also released on August 31, I'll be pissed. Want. This. Now.
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« Reply #171 on: August 27, 2012, 02:41:49 AM »

Quote from: whiteboyskim on August 25, 2012, 02:51:07 PM

Quote from: EddieA on August 25, 2012, 11:52:00 AM

Runic has said we'll learn the release date on August 31.

If it's not also released on August 31, I'll be pissed. Want. This. Now.

Well, Steam has it listed as Summer, but also in between items at the end of September and the start of October in their release order. I'd guess around then is more likely.
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« Reply #172 on: August 27, 2012, 04:30:36 AM »

Designer Travis Baldree's August 24 blog entry has this to day -

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We are super-buckled-down over here, trying to get everything bolted into its final location.
I've made it halfway through Act3 and am almost totally caught up with Marsh now. He's further into Act 3 than me (I'm right at the halfway point ), but it only took me 6 days to get there, so we are really rolling.
The game is awesome.
As has been mentioned, we will be telling everyone the Release Date next week.
We are still aiming for Summer...Thursday night I will let you know the release date here in the forums. You guys deserve to know first.
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« Reply #173 on: August 31, 2012, 06:54:29 AM »

Release date is September......wait for it.......20 smile
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« Reply #174 on: August 31, 2012, 06:56:52 AM »

Wait, so 2 days after Borderlands 2?   saywhat  Very poor timing. 
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« Reply #175 on: August 31, 2012, 07:38:40 PM »

Yeah, agh, too many games! At least my friends will likely be doing Borderlands and maybe not Torchlight, so i can split my time...
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« Reply #176 on: August 31, 2012, 08:03:41 PM »

Quote from: Azhag on August 31, 2012, 07:38:40 PM

Yeah, agh, too many games! At least my friends will likely be doing Borderlands and maybe not Torchlight, so i can split my time...

Borderlands 2 wants what, $90 to 'play all of it'? And T2 is $20? Yeah, I'm sticking with T2.
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« Reply #177 on: August 31, 2012, 09:00:57 PM »

T2 is getting my money now, B2 later when the GOTY comes out.
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« Reply #178 on: August 31, 2012, 09:14:03 PM »

Quote from: Destructor on August 31, 2012, 08:03:41 PM

Quote from: Azhag on August 31, 2012, 07:38:40 PM

Yeah, agh, too many games! At least my friends will likely be doing Borderlands and maybe not Torchlight, so i can split my time...

Borderlands 2 wants what, $90 to 'play all of it'? And T2 is $20? Yeah, I'm sticking with T2.

Borderlands 2 is available at GreenManGaming for $37.50 with a discount code.
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« Reply #179 on: August 31, 2012, 09:25:41 PM »

Quote from: EddieA on August 31, 2012, 09:14:03 PM

Quote from: Destructor on August 31, 2012, 08:03:41 PM

Quote from: Azhag on August 31, 2012, 07:38:40 PM

Yeah, agh, too many games! At least my friends will likely be doing Borderlands and maybe not Torchlight, so i can split my time...

Borderlands 2 wants what, $90 to 'play all of it'? And T2 is $20? Yeah, I'm sticking with T2.

Borderlands 2 is available at GreenManGaming for $37.50 with a discount code.

the code they list isn't valid until September 2nd.
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« Reply #180 on: September 01, 2012, 07:16:23 AM »

Quote from: CeeKay on August 31, 2012, 09:25:41 PM

Quote from: EddieA on August 31, 2012, 09:14:03 PM

Quote from: Destructor on August 31, 2012, 08:03:41 PM

Quote from: Azhag on August 31, 2012, 07:38:40 PM

Yeah, agh, too many games! At least my friends will likely be doing Borderlands and maybe not Torchlight, so i can split my time...

Borderlands 2 wants what, $90 to 'play all of it'? And T2 is $20? Yeah, I'm sticking with T2.

Borderlands 2 is available at GreenManGaming for $37.50 with a discount code.

the code they list isn't valid until September 2nd.

I retroactively postdate my post until September 2nd then  icon_razz
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« Reply #181 on: September 16, 2012, 01:41:59 PM »

Steam is doling out free copies of Torchlight when you pre-purchase Torchlight II. Of course if you're prepurchasing Torchlight II, chances are you already played Torchlight so this seems like an odd pre-purchase bonus imho.

Anyway, if someone didn't play Torchlight and wants a Steam copy, let me know.  icon_smile
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« Reply #182 on: September 16, 2012, 04:06:50 PM »

I'll pick this up down the road but I expect Borderlands to take a large chunk of my time after launch.
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« Reply #183 on: September 17, 2012, 05:02:42 AM »

Totally looking forward to this come Thursday. Oh, and the Neverwinter beta access as well that my PWE copy comes with. biggrin
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« Reply #184 on: September 18, 2012, 09:18:01 PM »

Can you pre-load if you bought through Perfect World for the Neverwinter access? If so, how?
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« Reply #185 on: September 19, 2012, 01:44:26 PM »

Quote from: Azhag on September 18, 2012, 09:18:01 PM

Can you pre-load if you bought through Perfect World for the Neverwinter access? If so, how?

Sadly, no, you can't preload T2 via PWE if you go that way, and you do not get a Steam key either. But I knew that going in. I wanted NW beta access and to me it was worth it.
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« Reply #186 on: September 19, 2012, 08:14:26 PM »

If anyone is interested, I'm trying to put together a guild league/group (I don't know what to call it) over at the Wanderers boards for TL2, the idea being any toon you choose to dedicate to this group, you only play it alone or with others in the group.  Since there aren't closed servers, this prevents the group "economy" from being tainted by cheats and mods and the like.  Obviously it's all based on the honor system, but the hope is that everyone involved wants to play in this kind of system.  PM me or head to the Wanderers forums if you are interested.
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« Reply #187 on: September 20, 2012, 01:00:56 AM »

Maybe a dumb question, but I can't find the answer anywhere.  Is there any reason to believe Torchlight 2 won't support 2560x1440 resolution?
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« Reply #188 on: September 20, 2012, 01:54:50 AM »

Quote from: Lockdown on September 20, 2012, 01:00:56 AM

Maybe a dumb question, but I can't find the answer anywhere.  Is there any reason to believe Torchlight 2 won't support 2560x1440 resolution?

I don't have a monitor to test it - mine goes up to 1080p.
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« Reply #189 on: September 20, 2012, 01:55:19 AM »

Who got to run their review early?  Oh that's right....we did:

http://gamingtrend.com/game_reviews/torchlight-ii/

Yea...it's that good.
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« Reply #190 on: September 20, 2012, 04:07:58 AM »

*waits for e-mail to start downloading it via PWE*
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Azhag
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« Reply #191 on: September 20, 2012, 02:51:37 PM »

Apparently the real releas is like 9:00pm tonight... stupid nighttime release..
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rittchard
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« Reply #192 on: September 20, 2012, 05:20:26 PM »

Quote from: Knightshade Dragon on September 20, 2012, 01:55:19 AM

Who got to run their review early?  Oh that's right....we did:

http://gamingtrend.com/game_reviews/torchlight-ii/

Yea...it's that good.

I saw you playing it the last few nights!  Curses!! 
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Isgrimnur
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« Reply #193 on: September 20, 2012, 05:34:21 PM »

Quote from: Azhag on September 20, 2012, 02:51:37 PM

Apparently the real releas is like 9:00pm tonight... stupid nighttime release..

They dropped the gate early.  The game is released.  I was at the character creation screen moments ago.
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« Reply #194 on: September 20, 2012, 06:30:10 PM »

I've got about half an hour in and it's fantastic so far.
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« Reply #195 on: September 20, 2012, 07:18:27 PM »

I'm on level 20 on Torchlight, should I finish before I start 2?
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« Reply #196 on: September 20, 2012, 07:23:26 PM »

Quote from: ATB on September 20, 2012, 07:18:27 PM

I'm on level 20 on Torchlight, should I finish before I start 2?

No need - the stories are completely separate. 
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« Reply #197 on: September 20, 2012, 08:25:25 PM »

Follow-up question, Mr. Dragon.

If I play Torchlight 2, will Torchlight 1 become unplayable do to improved interface, etc?
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« Reply #198 on: September 20, 2012, 09:04:41 PM »

lv.8 Eng.
Very slick class to crack cranium with. I haven't had any trouble yet progressing through story quests, or side-line one.
Putting point into only 2 stats atm. Strength and Vitality. Seems to fit the bill for this class. Loving the loot so far.
Much more rewarding than D-3.
20 bucks, its a no brainer.
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CeeKay
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« Reply #199 on: September 20, 2012, 10:01:20 PM »

playing an Outlander, loving how fast she moves.  had trouble deciding which pet to pick at the beginning: ended up with the bulldog but was tempted by the Papillon and the hawk.
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