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Author Topic: The Revolution has begun...(IGN chan, specs, launch date?)  (Read 10355 times)
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« Reply #120 on: December 07, 2005, 08:58:32 PM »

Quote from: "Devil"
How's that!  :wink:


I wasn't comparing the two. I was only speaking to the PSP. Tongue I now own a DS, and fully intend to return it after my trip is over. biggrin
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« Reply #121 on: December 07, 2005, 09:06:43 PM »

You're out of line Purge, posting about the Revolution in this thread! smile

Quote
Erm, that doesn't make sense. Compare a portable system that costs 50% less than the PSP to a full console... right.

Ahh, now that I've shown the PSP is a more powerful system with different standards for games, and a system that does so much more, we worry about that extra $100 price tag?  Nice.

I'll take a shot at your criteria for the DS:

Gaming: crappy controls without analog system, lame stylus system based on 10 year old Palm PDA technology

Music: oops, DS doesn't really do that...  PSP does, and works with my MP3s just fine.  My pocketable MP3 players don't play games or show movies...  

Movies: oops, no real DS movies... sigh.  PSP at least lets you easily rip them down.  I know, I know, heaven forbid you buy a mem card.  UMD is a lame format, but I'm amazed at how many movies there are for it.  Still, much easier to rip down my DVDs, just as easy as with the Video iPod (another shitty product that doesn't play games smile )

Screen: Two small, low resolution screens, that you can smudge away, because you can see the large pixels through any smudges you get on them

Portability: DS doesn't fit in my pocket, most of the surface area is a lovely color of my choice, with two small screens in between.  Maybe, DS version 2, that everyone will buy, will be smaller, but then you've spent as much as a PSP!  Oh no!

Games: The DS games pretty much seem to be dumbed down N64 ports, but oh oh, without that analog control!  Either that, or they are GBA sequels, which are based on worse then N64 tech!

LCD Screen: Those large pixels are definitely responsive on those smaller then cell phone screens

Since the PSP games are pretty modern, I can see how you don't like them, since they are current.  Much better to play games current 10 years ago.

The PSP now ships with a 1 gig memory card included, the Giga pack.  That's enough for 2 movies, game saves, pictures, and some mp3's.
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« Reply #122 on: December 07, 2005, 09:13:22 PM »

Quote
A) We won't be getting lack-luster ports of games on 3 systems, only 2.
B) Nintendo will NEED to be producing more for their shelves as their library won't be artificially filled with games that were "token" like the cube.
C) They may well be facing a competition with the PS2 / Xbox market and stomping them out. My thinking is this : If I can buy a new car which isn't a porsche but ain't no slouch for the same price as the used minivan, why wouldn't I?


a) not all ports are lackluster, but you're right, you'll be cutting the Revolution game library way down, hardly a plus
b) Nintendo showed they are more then willing to increase the amount of first party games with both the N64 and Gamecube, and I'm sure they'll continue there excellent tradition with the Revolution... (note the sarcasm)
c) a car comparison is hardly fair, we're talking about $100-$200 difference between consoles, not $1000s between cars.  That's just a few games difference, most gamers will go for the better system.  Heck, most parents, as shown by the crazy eBay prices for the 360, will go for the better system!

I think Nintendo should focus on the gaming market, maybe produce a relevant portable machine to compete with the PSP, or go to software development.  How many more Zelda's would they sell if they released them on the 360 and PS3?  

Nintendo is becoming like Apple, just stubborn for stubborn sake.  Without the iPod, Apple would be struggling.  As the PSP slowly eats into the portable market, Nintendo may struggle some.
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« Reply #123 on: December 07, 2005, 10:01:04 PM »

Without PS2, Sony would be struggling.
Let's take that one step further... Without water we'd be dead. :roll: I didn't realize we were playing the "what-if" game.

Look, Scott, I stated my take on the PSP as clearly it's something you want to talk about (3 pages of PSP vs DS vs Revo). *AS I SEE IT*, it's almost as expensive as a full console, and comes with very few titles that interest me, and it's poorly implemented "multimedia" has been bad enough where people are downgrading their bioses (AIUI) so they can actually use the product with non-licensed software. Kinda like saying the Xbox kicks ass cuz of the pirated media center.  The plusses are unrelated to the product released to the manufacturers specification. I could say the PSP is a terrific device: it took the wobble out of my dining room table with the one short leg.

The only relevance to the Revo is my concern for their own gaming library, I don't see the PSP as being a better "gaming system" than the DS ... both play games; one has more potential than the other for truly innovative experiences. The other is a more powerful version of a gameboy. Kudos to Sony for bringing dumbed down PS2 games to the handheld market. When they step it up and make me want it with better games, I'll be there in line. I've got a truckload of electronics and no willpower to speak of. For now though, it's a pretty shallow creek.

I'm also not a DS fan. I've just played my first game on the DS that I bought (and will be returning after my LA trip), and I'd have to say that it impresses me, but not enough to want to keep it. The buttons are too small, and the whole thing feels like it's got a low production value.

You've obviously got an agenda, or have never really sampled both sides. Gross generalizations are not a way to carry on a healthy discussion. You can blow up, calm down, or whatever. I'll wait for the next revo thread to actually, you know, TALK ABOUT THE CONSOLE in question.

/walks away.
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« Reply #124 on: December 07, 2005, 10:11:47 PM »

Do you like it when Mormons come to your door and try to convert you to their religion?  So why try to convert people on here?  Stick with what you have and support.  Who gives a flying fuck-a-roo what the next guy/girl is playing.  IT DOESNT MATTER ONE BIT.
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« Reply #125 on: December 07, 2005, 10:26:07 PM »

Nintendo has been trying to get the non-gamer for years, what makes this console and it's games any different, a controller that looks like a dvd remote?  What is really gonna seperate what they are doing now from what they have done the last 7 years.  All I see is them again failing to get that non traditional gamer they have been after, but also not getting the hardcore gamer because we'll all be too busy playing on next generation consoles to fiddle with a system not too much improved over an xbox.  In the grand scheme of things, this console looks like it will fail miserably and lead to nintendo just doing handhelds and software for the big two.
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« Reply #126 on: December 07, 2005, 11:03:22 PM »

Quote from: "StitchJones"
Nintendo has been trying to get the non-gamer for years, what makes this console and it's games any different, a controller that looks like a dvd remote?  What is really gonna seperate what they are doing now from what they have done the last 7 years.  All I see is them again failing to get that non traditional gamer they have been after, but also not getting the hardcore gamer because we'll all be too busy playing on next generation consoles to fiddle with a system not too much improved over an xbox.

Exactly.  A remote isn't going to be the cure for Nintendo's ills.  I agree that they have already been (unsuccessfully) targeting the non-gamer for years in the home console arena, and they're going to have to have far more up their sleeve than an unergonomic controller if they want to sell to the non-gamer...

A side note as far as the controller goes:  you can talk 'til you're blue in the face about how "innovative" it is, but innovative doesn't necessarily equal "good".
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« Reply #127 on: December 07, 2005, 11:51:43 PM »

I have to make a comment on the games thing for the DS though, specifically to Devil's and Scott's points on games.


Tell me where else you can play games like the ones listed below:

Yoshi Touch and Go
Kirby Canvas Curse
Pac N Roll
Pac Pix
Trauma Center
Nintendogs
WarioWare Touched(is only playable with a touch screen)
Elektroplankton

So please tell me which of those are rehashes that bring nothing new or could be done elsewhere? It's easy to make a good arguement when you ignore several great games that totally destroy what you are saying. The DS is loaded with games like this and more are on the way.

I'm not saying that you have to love it or Nintendo or any crap like that, I am saying that the arguement that the good games are all rehashes or remakes or ports is Crap because I just listed just as much good software that doesn't fit your description.
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« Reply #128 on: December 08, 2005, 12:04:49 AM »

Quote from: "Laner"
A side note as far as the controller goes:  you can talk 'til you're blue in the face about how "innovative" it is, but innovative doesn't necessarily equal "good".


I wrote a paper analyzing the Iwata's keynote address when he unveiled the controller for my ComSt. 401 class and I wrote about how innovative it would be for the public, and my professor said EXACTLY of what you wrote!  Just thought that was funny  :lol:

The "remote" controller, without any sort of shell (which I guess is planned to turn it into a wavebird-type controller), enhances the party aspect of the console.  Something that I think the GameCube nailed.
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« Reply #129 on: December 08, 2005, 02:39:48 AM »

Quote
I have to make a comment on the games thing for the DS though, specifically to Devil's and Scott's points on games.


Tell me where else you can play games like the ones listed below:

Yoshi Touch and Go
Kirby Canvas Curse
Pac N Roll
Pac Pix
Trauma Center
Nintendogs
WarioWare Touched(is only playable with a touch screen)
Elektroplankton

So please tell me which of those are rehashes that bring nothing new or could be done elsewhere? It's easy to make a good arguement when you ignore several great games that totally destroy what you are saying. The DS is loaded with games like this and more are on the way.

I'm not saying that you have to love it or Nintendo or any crap like that, I am saying that the arguement that the good games are all rehashes or remakes or ports is Crap because I just listed just as much good software that doesn't fit your description.


"Loaded" might be a little over the top. We all know these forums were abuzz with talk of Pac Pix for weeks. You couldn't do Ping Pals on any other system either (you leave things out too  biggrin ).

I liked Kirby and Trauma Center and you're forgetting Feel the Magic but that's my point. THOSE are the DS games that should be commended NOT Advance Wars. NOT Mario 64. NOT Castlevania. NOT Mario Kart. While they are all good/great games there wasn't a need for another system to play them on which (oh my God!  :wink: ) brings me back to the Revolution.

Are they going to give us a system that plays ANOTHER Mario Kart (and all the versions before it, as if you could tell the difference!) or are we going to get Trauma Center and Kirby?

My guess is a liberal amount of the same old stuff and a few solid gems thrown in for good measuse.

Let me remind you that I own 2 GCs, a DS, a GBA-SP and a Micro. I'll be grabbing a Revolution, but I'm not expecting too much. I think "Nintendo is making money" might just apply to what they get from ME!  :wink:
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« Reply #130 on: December 08, 2005, 04:31:07 AM »

The very fact that you can name 8 "unique" games for a system that has only been out for around a year says quite a bit.  How many unique Xbox games are there?  How about the PS2?  PSP?  I think people have impossibly high standards for Nintendo.  They demand the absolute best in hardware and a redefining of a gaming genre every 6 months.  For some reason no one applies these ridiculous standards to Sony or Microsoft.
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« Reply #131 on: December 08, 2005, 05:09:57 AM »

Quote from: "Devil"
Are they going to give us a system that plays ANOTHER Mario Kart (and all the versions before it, as if you could tell the difference!) or are we going to get Trauma Center and Kirby?


Why not both?  If anything the Revolution's low-end hardware makes it much more affordable to try different types of games since the production assets will be far less than those expected on the 360 and PS3.

Of course there is going to be Mario Kart, Zelda, and whatnot on Revolution.  Those games sell great and it would be fiscally irresponsible of Nintendo not to make those games.

And if you're complaining about ANOTHER Mario Kart then you had better be complaining about ANOTHER Halo, GTA, Gran Turismo, Resident Evil, Final Fantasy, and every other franchise still going strong that ensures further iterations next generation.  Nintendo is only unique in that they've been on the console scene a decade longer than anyone.  If the Halo franchise is still selling 1 million+ copies in ten years then you can be damn sure that MS will still be riding the Master Chief train.
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« Reply #132 on: December 08, 2005, 06:40:29 AM »

Quote from: "Kevin Grey"
...you can be damn sure that MS will still be riding the Master Chief train.


Ewwwwwww.
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« Reply #133 on: December 08, 2005, 06:53:58 AM »

One point that I haven't seen mentioned yet, which I think is the biggest feather in Nintendo's cap in regards to the Revolution:

Developers are getting downright EXCITED about it and the potential that the new controller represents.

That is HUGE.  Potentially paradigm shifting huge.

My stance on this new generation of systems is that Nintendo is the wild card.  I have a feeling that they will come out of the gate strong and solidly push the envelope with new experimental gameplay, third party games will be more interesting with not as many ports of the same old shit as the other two.  There will certainly be some misses, but the hits could very well redefine gaming for the years to come.

I also think that the fact that Microsoft and Nintendo are solidly pushing online distribution methods with their new systems is going to be what could eventually topple Sony's grip on the market.  We are already seeing some of the potential of the Live Marketplace, and we will see a lot more interesting 'budget' games that take advantage of this in the coming years.  Who says that all the Rev will offer online are their old games?  This is what could revitalize the gaming industry and take the focus away from the sink or swim blockbuster mess we are in right now.  Smaller developers will have a better opportunity to get their product to gamers than they have had in years (this should have happened on the PC a long time ago, actually).  The fact that Sony is turning their back on this concept for the PS3 is what is going to hurt them the most.

Oh, and my opinion of the PSP/DS thing?  I think it is a great little movie player, but 90% of the games I would rather play on my TV with all of the bells and whistles a full console lends.  I hope that changes and if it does I'll be buying one.  On the other hand, the DS has been surprising the shit out of me and devs have only just started to realize it's potential.  New forms of gameplay are popping up on it and my curiosity is piqued.  I plan to get one right after I am finally able to afford a 360, I want in on that action.
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« Reply #134 on: December 08, 2005, 01:12:36 PM »

Quote
Yoshi Touch and Go
Kirby Canvas Curse
Pac N Roll
Pac Pix
Trauma Center
Nintendogs
WarioWare Touched(is only playable with a touch screen)
Elektroplankton

There is a kids game, Virtual Pets or such, that you can play on the PC that is very close to Nintendogs.  Kirby and Trauma Center are pretty cool, and those would be the first two games I'd play on the system.  

I don't think Warioware is that great, a bunch of minigames with pen control, vs Warioware on the GBA, a bunch of games with gamepad control.  Why does the pen make the experience better?  PDA's have had pen controls for years, and I can play games using a my tablet on my PC if I want.

And like Devil said, where was the love for Pac N Roll and Pac N Pix?

If you think the stylus is so great, here: http://www.palm.com/us/  You can have more Stylus fun and be productive.  Lots of great games here: http://www.handango.com/SoftwareCatalog.jsp?jid=F2D66EE8EEF1FX23368A2CB259C65212&platformId=1&siteId=1&N=96804+93258&navTitle=Games

edit: Here's an even better site with stylus games: http://www.pdarcade.com/  More new, unique fun to be had!

Don't let the fact that PDA's have had fun games for years, with pen input, stop you from calling the DS original and unique though.

Oh, Petz for the computer: http://petz.ubi.com/  It is on version 5, apparently its been around longer Nintendogs.  But I'm sure Nintendo gave them the idea smile.

Back to the Revolution.  I hope it works out.  If the controller really is innovative, great.  As far as developers getting excited, we'll see.  Developers are 'excited' about the PS3 and 360 too, about XBox Live Arcade, and tons of other stuff, like free coffee.

I think Nintendo is losing ground though, and that Sony is catching them some with popular franchises.  Microsoft still has nothing to compete with Mario, but Sony, with Sly, Ratchet, and others is closing the gap.

Quote
We are already seeing some of the potential of the Live Marketplace, and we will see a lot more interesting 'budget' games that take advantage of this in the coming years. Who says that all the Rev will offer online are their old games? This is what could revitalize the gaming industry and take the focus away from the sink or swim blockbuster mess we are in right now. Smaller developers will have a better opportunity to get their product to gamers than they have had in years (this should have happened on the PC a long time ago, actually). The fact that Sony is turning their back on this concept for the PS3 is what is going to hurt them the most.

This is great though, and their was a mini blurb on Evil Avatar yesterday about how excited Devs were XBox Arcade.  I love the Arcade.  I'm more excited about it then a lot of the games for any of the systems, because small developers have a chance, and we can see some fun, quirky games .  Or just more fun games like Geometry Wars.

I won't buy the Revolution to play old Nintendo games, but if they also have new, fun games, I'm there.  I do think the Arcade Live games are enhanced by the HDTV support though.  Geometry Wars looks much better in HDTV, as does Outpost Kaloki, so we'll see what the Revolution does.
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« Reply #135 on: December 08, 2005, 01:23:38 PM »

Man, is there a tougher fan base than Nintendo Fans???

LOL
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« Reply #136 on: December 08, 2005, 02:02:13 PM »

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Man, is there a tougher fan base than Nintendo Fans???


As if their lives depended on it.  biggrin

We'll see what happens, but I'll predict another 3rd place finish for Nintendo in this round.

I know "they are making money" but 3rd out of 3 shouldn't be the ultimate goal. Especially when you were #1.

Sorry.
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« Reply #137 on: December 08, 2005, 02:16:26 PM »

Quote from: "HankRaptor"
Man, is there a tougher fan base than Nintendo Fans???

LOL

Pretty much any group that really, really likes a particular system.  See Hetz for a prime example of an extremely pro-360 fan.  You'll find people just as rabid about Sony and you'll find people (like Lord Ebonstone and the PSP) who take pride in being against particular systems.

Live and let live.  We are playing games to have fun right?
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« Reply #138 on: December 08, 2005, 02:23:41 PM »

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Live and let live. We are playing games to have fun right?

Yeah, but if we agreed on everything the forums would be dull! smile  It is fun to have arguments, passes the time at work, school, or whatever.
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« Reply #139 on: December 08, 2005, 02:49:03 PM »

Quote from: "Scott"
Quote
Live and let live. We are playing games to have fun right?

Yeah, but if we agreed on everything the forums would be dull! smile  It is fun to have arguments, passes the time at work, school, or whatever.

Yeah but it just gets so boring.  I mean seriously, read through this thread and you could have easily predicted who was going to make what argument.  You knew Lord Ebonstone and Hetz would show up.  You know TML and Depward would show up.  You knew Devil would mention about Nintendo making money.  Farley will question double standards among Xbox lovers.  PSP vs. DS will make an appearance.  The phrase "remote control" will be bandied about like a six shooter.  Penis sizes will be mentioned, compared and argued over (NO!  You measure from the bottom side NOT the top!).  It's all so predictable except that, somehow, we didn't invoke Hitler or call anyone an imbecile (yet).  It just gets so... rehashed and stale.

And you're all imbeciles!
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« Reply #140 on: December 08, 2005, 02:56:16 PM »

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Devil would mention about Nintendo making money


I don't mention it - I predict it will be mentioned as part of the GT Rules (It's #2, right behind "Any game played on a console is better on PC due to higher resolutions and the ability to use a keyboard and mouse")

I love the discussion though!
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« Reply #141 on: December 08, 2005, 03:05:09 PM »

I like to think of it as a Mafia family.  Every once in awhile these things have to happen.  It clears out the bad blood and air out our opinions

:p   Just watched Godfather last night
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« Reply #142 on: December 08, 2005, 03:25:09 PM »

Quote from: "Devil"
Quote
Devil would mention about Nintendo making money


I don't mention it - I predict it will be mentioned as part of the GT Rules (It's #2, right behind "Any game played on a console is better on PC due to higher resolutions and the ability to use a keyboard and mouse")

Which would make sense except that I don't remember anyone else but you mentioning that Nintendo's making money in this thread.  My point was that it is all predictable including you stating what you did.

Quote from: "Devil"
I love the discussion though!

Yeah it is kinda fun in a giant flaming zeppelin sort of way.   biggrin
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« Reply #143 on: December 08, 2005, 04:08:52 PM »

Way back in page 2, hitbyambulance played the trump card.

It's all predictable, I think that's why it's fun!
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« Reply #144 on: December 08, 2005, 04:21:14 PM »

I agree, I love these debates because you always know who thinks what, it's hilarious. biggrin  I WANT A THREAD LIKE THIS WEEKLY!
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« Reply #145 on: December 08, 2005, 04:44:30 PM »

I like that the recap of the thread is actually keeping it going!

It's like the end of a playoff series in the NHL. We're all shaking hands as we go off the ice knowing that we'll be back at it soon enough.
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« Reply #146 on: December 08, 2005, 05:25:12 PM »

Quote from: "Devil"
It's like the end of a playoff series in the NHL. We're all shaking hands as we go off the ice knowing that we'll be back at it soon enough.

A situation you and your team will be very familiar with in the first round of the playoffs this year huh Devil? :wink:
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« Reply #147 on: December 08, 2005, 05:56:16 PM »

Quote from: "Devil"
I like that the recap of the thread is actually keeping it going!

It's like the end of a playoff series in the NHL. We're all shaking hands as we go off the ice knowing that we'll be back at it soon enough.


That's so accurate it's great.  slywink

Also wanted to mention that, as many people have said, I certainly won't argue that Nintendo will finish third in terms of installed userbase this coming generation again.  However, I don't think that's necessarily bad.  I think they're aiming for a new target, but I don't think that target is one that will pay off immediately.  It has the potential for an even bigger base than the other two big players currently have, but that potential may or may not pay off.
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« Reply #148 on: December 08, 2005, 06:45:58 PM »

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A situation you and your team will be very familiar with in the first round of the playoffs this year huh Devil?


That will require a top 8 finish in the conference and I'm not ready to say that's going to happen. :cry:
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« Reply #149 on: December 08, 2005, 06:54:20 PM »

just to add my two cents, even though it's been said.  

The majority of people who are hardcore gamers are going to have either a xbox360 and a revolution, or a ps3 and a revolution.  If you do the math, Nintendo is not doing to bad.  You can't expect everything in one system, so why limit yourselves.
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adamsappel
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« Reply #150 on: December 08, 2005, 07:30:29 PM »

I used to like Dr Pepper, then I found out it was third-most-popular, so now it tastes terrible to me. Plus, it had a very different flavor than the two better-selling brands, so it can't be any good.
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HankRaptor
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« Reply #151 on: December 08, 2005, 07:34:24 PM »

Nintendo Honorably Bows Out?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There's an article on About.com discussing Nintendo's strategy on the Revolution. Considering IGN's recent updates on how powerful the Revolution is going to be, it certainly looks like Nintendo is attempting to be non-competitive; they're not taking on Sony and Microsoft in the home console market directly. Is Nintendo bowing out of the home console market in favor of a more friendly industry?


Quote:
Nintendo looks to be introducing a system that compares to Sony and Microsoft's consoles about as well as a Game and Watch system compares to the original Game Boy. People just didn't see them on the same level.  


Source: Evil Avatar
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Devil
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« Reply #152 on: December 08, 2005, 07:36:01 PM »

Quote
I used to like Dr Pepper, then I found out it was third-most-popular, so now it tastes terrible to me. Plus, it had a very different flavor than the two better-selling brands, so it can't be any good.


I used to like it too and then 2 companies came out with something better so I hardly drink it anymore.
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Nth Power
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« Reply #153 on: December 08, 2005, 07:41:57 PM »

Quote from: "adamsappel"
I used to like Dr Pepper, then I found out it was third-most-popular, so now it tastes terrible to me. Plus, it had a very different flavor than the two better-selling brands, so it can't be any good.
I'm a Diet Coke addict myself.

Personally, I'm excited to see the Revolution.  I have a feeling Nintendo has something up their sleeve.  It's still going to come in third behind the 360 and PS3, in America at least.  I'm curious to see how the Japan launch goes for the 360 this weekend.  Aren't there only going to be like six titles available at launch over there?
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adamsappel
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« Reply #154 on: December 08, 2005, 07:59:11 PM »

Actually, it's Pepsi One for the win, but that didn't fit the analogy.
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Dante Rising
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« Reply #155 on: December 08, 2005, 09:14:45 PM »

Quote
The majority of people who are hardcore gamers are going to have either a xbox360 and a revolution, or a ps3 and a revolution.


Hardcore gamers will have all three systems. There are always enough exclusive titles for this group to rationalize the purchase of all three systems.
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Tebunker
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« Reply #156 on: December 09, 2005, 01:41:47 AM »

I try to avoid Pop whenever I can, but Root Beer trumps all.


And Devil thanks for the reply and extra elaboration on your point, I understand what you're saying much better now, still don't agree totally, but I see what you're saying.


Oh and at least your team didn't trade their best player to the Sharks for nothing and are pretty much calling the season...
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« Reply #157 on: December 09, 2005, 02:11:44 AM »

I know it was mentioned in here somewhere, but the (assumed?) fact that development costs for Revo games will be lower than the PS3 and 360 can't hurt the system either. If devs support the platform, maybe we could expect shorter development times, lower costs, lower title prices, greater risks taken in gameplay, and other nonsense like that.

I dunno ... does any of that make sense?
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HankRaptor
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« Reply #158 on: December 09, 2005, 01:24:14 PM »

Sounds good in theory. But I think its a cycle, if it doesnt do big enough sales numbers to support the investment in Dev Kits and the like... they wont make software for it.
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« Reply #159 on: December 09, 2005, 01:31:33 PM »

Nintendo is doing just fine...

November HARDWARE sales numbers.

GBA: 892,438
PS2: 546,096
NDS: 381,619
PSP: 359,772
Xbox 360: 332,121
NGC: 278,284
Xbox: 191,320

Now that is INSANE.. GBA outselling EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They are not so stupid eh?
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