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Author Topic: The PS3 downscales 720p on incapable TVs  (Read 2072 times)
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Captain Caveman
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« on: November 16, 2006, 12:06:49 AM »

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/746/746282p1.html

 eek

That seals it for me. Forget the PS3. I have an older HDTV that only accepts 480i, 480p and 1080i. You're telling me I'd have to play at low-rez?? Ridiculous.
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gellar
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« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2006, 12:20:49 AM »

That is... not good at fucking all.

It doesn't affect me, but that's actually the first Sony fuckup that I think is serious.  Holy shit.

gellar
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jblank
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« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2006, 12:24:31 AM »

Simply inexcusable. I would hate to be the owner of a CRT based HDTV or RP HDTV that doesn't take 720p (and there are a lot of them out there).
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« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2006, 12:28:48 AM »

This wouldn't affect me at all, but this is absolutely inexcusable. Outright stupid. What dumbass designed this piece of shit?
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« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2006, 12:30:29 AM »

Quote from: Destructor on November 16, 2006, 12:28:48 AM

This wouldn't affect me at all, but this is absolutely inexcusable. Outright stupid. What dumbass designed this piece of shit?

Probably the same dumbass that decided it was smart to launch the console with only 400,000 units for North America.  Tongue
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Hetz
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« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2006, 12:33:47 AM »

Quote from: gellar on November 16, 2006, 12:20:49 AM

That is... not good at fucking all.

It doesn't affect me, but that's actually the first Sony fuckup that I think is serious.  Holy shit.

gellar

Same here. I'm all set, but MANY others don't have TV's that do 720p or 1080p. I really hope they correct that problem with a system update, or they may be screwed.
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Pharaoh
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« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2006, 12:43:09 AM »

Oh wow, thats quite a feature to not talk about or reveal until two nights before the launch.

Talk about fucking most of your mid-range customers...and those who don't understand what its doing will be pissed in about 2 years when they find out trying to play Final Fantasy 14 or whatever and it bumps it down to 480 mudville.

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« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2006, 12:59:39 AM »

I really dont give a shit.
I have a old fat ass TV that you have to get up and change the channel manually.
So I'll be happy if my PS3 playings, never mind all these large numbers and HD junk.
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« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2006, 01:00:15 AM »

Quote from: Pharaoh on November 16, 2006, 12:43:09 AM

Oh wow, thats quite a feature to not talk about or reveal until two nights before the launch.

They haven't revealed it now, either...
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Dimmona
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« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2006, 01:40:56 AM »

Wow, just wow.   eek  I know quite a few folks who's TV does 1080i only, many of whom are going to be very pissed when they hear about this...
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Kevin Grey
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« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2006, 01:51:38 AM »

Uh, yeah, that really sucks (I have two 1080i TVs).  Really hope that is something fixable in a firmware upgrade. 
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The Grue
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« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2006, 01:59:56 AM »

This would affect me.  Fuck Sony.

Actually, I am kind of confused on this.  My TV says it takes 480i-1080i inputs and mentions 720p.  It doesn't mention anywhere that it actually upscales 720p to 1080i, but it is a CRT HDTV and I have read that all CRT HDTVs upscale from 720p to 1080i and don't actually display in 720p.  Is this true?  Unfortunately, I have no way to determine what mode my TV displays in actuality.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2006, 02:04:27 AM by The Grue » Logged

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JCC
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« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2006, 02:00:59 AM »

As I noted on OO, I am incredulous that a premium priced console has such a glaring technical flaw. I would almost consider it broken. I can't think of any other "box" that provides an HD signal that doesn't provide you a choice of 1080i or 720p. Good lord, even cheap ass upconverting DVD players do it.
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Kevin Grey
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« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2006, 02:12:38 AM »

Quote from: The Grue on November 16, 2006, 01:59:56 AM

This would affect me.  Fuck Sony.

Actually, I am kind of confused on this.  My TV says it takes 480i-1080i inputs and mentions 720p.  It doesn't mention anywhere that it actually upscales 720p to 1080i, but it is a CRT HDTV and I have read that all CRT HDTVs upscale from 720p to 1080i and don't actually display in 720p.  Is this true?  Unfortunately, I have no way to determine what mode my TV displays in actuality.

Most CRTs won't upscale that way.  I think when they say 720p, they mean it accepts Over-the-Air antenna signals from nets that broadcast in 720p (ABC is one I believe), but won't accept a 720p signal input via component or HDMI.  I know that's the case with my TVs at least.  You need the box doing the decoding to upscale the content- usally the Sat/Cable box, upconverting DVD player, or the 360.  Sounds like the PS3 won't do that. 
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Graham
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« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2006, 02:44:52 AM »

I think I should be OK with my TV (if I get a PS3).  According to my TV specs it takes 1080i/720p/480i/480p.
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The Grue
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« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2006, 03:23:17 AM »

Quote from: Kevin Grey on November 16, 2006, 02:12:38 AM

Most CRTs won't upscale that way.  I think when they say 720p, they mean it accepts Over-the-Air antenna signals from nets that broadcast in 720p (ABC is one I believe), but won't accept a 720p signal input via component or HDMI.  I know that's the case with my TVs at least.  You need the box doing the decoding to upscale the content- usally the Sat/Cable box, upconverting DVD player, or the 360.  Sounds like the PS3 won't do that. 

They list 720p as a resolution on the diagram when discussing the component inputs, though.  To me, that seems to indicate that those inputs take 720p.  However, it says nothing about whether it displays it at that resolution or not.  I hate that my TV has no way to tell me what mode it is currently at right now.  It is a SOny Wega, so you would think it would, but I can't find anywhere that gives me this information.
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Hetz
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« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2006, 03:32:42 AM »

Quote from: Graham on November 16, 2006, 02:44:52 AM

I think I should be OK with my TV (if I get a PS3).  According to my TV specs it takes 1080i/720p/480i/480p.

Hey, how are the lines in Green Bay? Down in Appleton, there are a bunch of people already outside the two Best Buys....
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Chaz
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« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2006, 03:43:23 AM »

I'm pretty sure that my RP CRT upscales 720p content to 1080i internally, so it can accept a 720p signal, it just won't display it in 720p.  I know that I can cycle between 720p and 1080i in the 360 dashboard, and they both display.

As much as I think this is a stupid as hell thing for Sony to do, I'd be curious how many TVs out there won't accept a 720p signal.  I honestly don't know how many of them it will actually affect, and I think it's safe to say that it shouldn't affect any HD sets sold within the last two years.

Believe me, I'll be the first one jumping on the anti-PS3 train, but I just wonder if this isn't knee-jerk speculation at this point.
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« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2006, 03:59:39 AM »

this is the same company that is shipping 2 dollar composite cables with a $600 high definition gaming system. How many consumers do you think even understand that they're getting hosed 4 ways to Sunday on this deal. I'll just have to wait for the slimmed down PSthree...


Oh and my TV can handle all this stuff, just annoying and I refuse to support a company like this. I will continue to play my PS2 though
« Last Edit: November 16, 2006, 04:02:13 AM by Tebunker » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2006, 03:59:54 AM »

Quote from: The Grue on November 16, 2006, 03:23:17 AM

Quote from: Kevin Grey on November 16, 2006, 02:12:38 AM

Most CRTs won't upscale that way.  I think when they say 720p, they mean it accepts Over-the-Air antenna signals from nets that broadcast in 720p (ABC is one I believe), but won't accept a 720p signal input via component or HDMI.  I know that's the case with my TVs at least.  You need the box doing the decoding to upscale the content- usally the Sat/Cable box, upconverting DVD player, or the 360.  Sounds like the PS3 won't do that. 

They list 720p as a resolution on the diagram when discussing the component inputs, though.  To me, that seems to indicate that those inputs take 720p.  However, it says nothing about whether it displays it at that resolution or not.  I hate that my TV has no way to tell me what mode it is currently at right now.  It is a SOny Wega, so you would think it would, but I can't find anywhere that gives me this information.
As Chaz mentioned, the easiest thing to do would be to set your 360 or an upconverting DVD player to 720p.  If it works then you're good to go. 
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Kevin Grey
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« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2006, 04:01:02 AM »

Quote from: Chaz on November 16, 2006, 03:43:23 AM

I think it's safe to say that it shouldn't affect any HD sets sold within the last two years.

Bought my "gaming" HDTV last September (a 32" Panny CRT) and it won't accept 720p signals. 
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« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2006, 04:25:05 AM »

Quote from: Kevin Grey on November 16, 2006, 04:01:02 AM

Quote from: Chaz on November 16, 2006, 03:43:23 AM

I think it's safe to say that it shouldn't affect any HD sets sold within the last two years.
Bought my "gaming" HDTV last September (a 32" Panny CRT) and it won't accept 720p signals. 

Ouch.

Oh, and I think this image sums up the many problems of the PS3 launch quite nicely:

[attachment deleted by admin]
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« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2006, 04:25:17 AM »

Quote from: Chaz on November 16, 2006, 03:43:23 AM

As much as I think this is a stupid as hell thing for Sony to do, I'd be curious how many TVs out there won't accept a 720p signal.  I honestly don't know how many of them it will actually affect, and I think it's safe to say that it shouldn't affect any HD sets sold within the last two years.

A cursory glance at the HD CRT televisions sold at Best Buy shows that most only display 1080i.
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« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2006, 04:30:02 AM »

And here's a few questions for you all: How did a developer for the console not realize this and bring it up to Sony within the last 6 months or so? How/why can the 360 display any game at 480p/720p/1080i without any issues at all and the PS3 can't? How can the PS3 be called the 'first true HD game console' when if you don't have a TV that supports 720p (but can do 1080i/p), you don't get HD period on some games?
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« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2006, 04:42:55 AM »

Quote from: Destructor on November 16, 2006, 04:30:02 AM

And here's a few questions for you all: How did a developer for the console not realize this and bring it up to Sony within the last 6 months or so? How/why can the 360 display any game at 480p/720p/1080i without any issues at all and the PS3 can't? How can the PS3 be called the 'first true HD game console' when if you don't have a TV that supports 720p (but can do 1080i/p), you don't get HD period on some games?

I'm not at all up on the details of all the high resolution issues here, but it strikes me as stupid beyond belief for Sony to do this. There must be more to this story that will unfold over the next day or so. Even Sony can't be this dumb.

But do most of the PS3 launch games top out at 720p? Don't most of them go higher?
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« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2006, 07:36:26 AM »

Quote from: Hetz on November 16, 2006, 03:32:42 AM

Quote from: Graham on November 16, 2006, 02:44:52 AM

I think I should be OK with my TV (if I get a PS3).  According to my TV specs it takes 1080i/720p/480i/480p.

Hey, how are the lines in Green Bay? Down in Appleton, there are a bunch of people already outside the two Best Buys....

I heard on the radio that they won't let people camp until 24 hours before the PS3 goes on sale.  I'm going to drive past tomorrow and see how Best Buy and Circuit City are.  I am going to be heading to Sam's after work so I might hang out at Wal-Mart to try to pick one up at the midnight launch there, but I have a feeling it's going to be crazy there.

I do have a plan to get one that might work, but I think I'm going to have to be pretty lucky.

According to my gf, she drove past a Best Buy and a Circuit City on the way home and there was a line with at least 20 people at each.  Crazy.
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« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2006, 11:50:44 AM »

Quote from: Godzilla Blitz on November 16, 2006, 04:42:55 AM

But do most of the PS3 launch games top out at 720p? Don't most of them go higher?

I think the big issue is that a good number of the games seem to not support 1080i, which is the native resolution on many sets.
Very few people have a 1080p capable TV. Many TVs should (I think) be able to support 1080i or 720p by converting one to the other,
but if you happen to have one that doesn't, you're going to be in trouble.

And does that NBA game really support ONLY 1080p? That just doesn't make sense.
You'd think Sony would have required every game to work with the basic resolutions people use for certification.
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« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2006, 01:04:42 PM »

Quote from: Kevin Grey on November 16, 2006, 03:59:54 AM

As Chaz mentioned, the easiest thing to do would be to set your 360 or an upconverting DVD player to 720p.  If it works then you're good to go. 

In that case, mine does work.  I have my 360 set to 720p right now.
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HankRaptor
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« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2006, 01:45:21 PM »

Stupidity,  I hope its something they can fix with a downloadable upgrade.
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« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2006, 01:47:07 PM »

Quote from: Kevin Grey on November 16, 2006, 03:59:54 AM

As Chaz mentioned, the easiest thing to do would be to set your 360 or an upconverting DVD player to 720p.  If it works then you're good to go. 

While most HDTVs that only accept a 1080i HD signal will do this, it won't help when it comes to the PS3. Here are some comments from joystiq that explain:

Quote
Just so everyone is clear, in games like Resistance (which runs in 720p but not 1080i or 1080p), if your HDTV does not support a 720p input signal, then the PS3 will DOWNSCALE the output to 480p. It doesn't matter what your XMB resolution is... in fact, if you try to play Resistance with your XMB resolution set to higher than 720p, then it will give you an error message when you try to run the game telling you to use another screen mode. And for those HDTVs that don't support a 720p input signal, this means that you'll be playing your brand new shiny $600 PS3 in glorious 480p/PS3 resolution.

Quote
if you read the article you see what they are saying is that if you have an HDTV that only does 1080i and you set the resolution in the OS to 1080i, when you boot up a 720p only game, it switches resolution to 480p.

sucks. and I ain't buying one until they fix that. I don't know why they can't just scale it with all that amazing power of the cell and blah blah blah.
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« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2006, 03:57:27 PM »

All the more reason to wait for the second gen systems as it sounds like the early adopters are going to be beta testing the system for that.
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« Reply #31 on: November 16, 2006, 09:52:47 PM »

Quote
if you read the article you see what they are saying is that if you have an HDTV that only does 1080i and you set the resolution in the OS to 1080i, when you boot up a 720p only game, it switches resolution to 480p.

so lets say i have a tv that does only 1080i.  when i set my xbox360 to 720p it does in fact display.  lets say i set the os on my ps3 to 720p and keep it there - it wont display? 

i can see if i set it at 1080i in the os and pop in a non-1080i game why it wouldnt - but shouldnt i be fine if i just keep the os set to 720p?  or is the only reason i can get a display on my xbox360 at 720p because the xbox is doing some kind of scaling?  i always just figured it was the tv... ???
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« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2006, 10:03:43 PM »

Yes, the 360 scales it for you, like most upscaling-type of DVD players do.

What the IGN article is saying is that when the PS3 detects that your display device does not accept the 720p signal, the PS3 downscales the image instead of upscaling it.  At that point, it doesn't matter if your display device can upscale from 720 - 1080, because the signal it receives will be at 480.

Gives more insight into why Sony decided not to include any kind of VGA support.
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