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Author Topic: The Lord of the Rings: War in the North  (Read 15732 times)
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CeeKay
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« on: March 18, 2010, 04:09:08 PM »

a 'mature RPG game' where the Shire invades Canada.

ok, not really (doubt the Hobbits could survive the arctic weather up there).  still, co-op play is a big plus and it sounds like it's going to be outside of the 'follow the fellowship' methid most LotR games take.
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« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2010, 05:30:05 PM »

I'll admit that I was immediately disappointed when I saw the label Action RPG.  I was hoping for a tactical party based RPG, set in the North.  My first reaction was, ugh, another EA LOTR Conquest game.  But after watching the trailer, it looks promising.  I like action rpgs, but man, the lotr setting would be well complimented by a good tactical rpg system like Dragon Age. 
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« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2010, 07:56:55 PM »

I had the same reaction when I saw it was an action RPG, but I watched the trailer anyway.  Does it show any actual gameplay?  Looked like a cutscene to me. 
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« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2010, 08:58:33 PM »

It's just a teaser trailer, not game footage.

Frankly I'm excited about an action RPG, as long as it is done well.  LOTR Conquest was not an action RPG, it was a straight-up action game.
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« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2010, 10:08:18 PM »

What the heck does "a mature RPG" mean?  When I hear "mature RPG" I picture Fallout 2 with drugs and prostitution or maybe The Witcher which touted collecting cards for all the women you sleep with.  Even a Diablo version of "maturity" with lots of people stuck on pikes and massive explosions of blood does not fit in with this IP at all.  Do we have to make everything mature?  I fail to see how making everything mature and edgy fits into the Lord of the Rings IP.
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« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2010, 10:38:47 PM »

perhaps they mean mature in the same way the movies are mature, and not kids movies...
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« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2010, 11:42:49 PM »

Quote from: Razgon on March 18, 2010, 10:38:47 PM

perhaps they mean mature in the same way the movies are mature, and not kids movies...

I suppose that's possible.  The latest LotR game announced looks to be the exact opposite of mature.  So maybe they are just trying to differentiate themselves from The Lord of the Rings: Aragorn's Quest.
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« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2010, 02:31:06 AM »

I assume "mature" means it will be much more bloody and violent than the movies or previous games.  I just hope it isn't too over the top.  Also, the game comes from Snowblind Studios, makers of Baldur's Gate : Dark Alliance, Champions of Norrath, and Justice League Heroes.  It looks like this game will be similar to those, i.e. hack and slash, loot-heavy action RPGs.
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« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2010, 04:55:06 PM »

screenshots!
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« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2010, 06:03:09 PM »

I lost interest in this one when a preview I read talked at length about how one of the characters is a wizard (not a Wizard. A wizard. Like a spellcasting human. Those don't exist in Lord of the Rings).

Why oh why do developers feel the need to introduce generic fantasy trappings into the LOTR universe?
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« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2010, 06:05:45 PM »

I think it's "mature" in that they finally develop the Sam/Frodo romance that develops on Brokeback Mountain.

Frodo:  "Gimme the Ring, bitch!"
Sam:  "I wish I could quit you!"

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« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2010, 06:08:42 PM »

Quote from: rittchard on June 14, 2010, 06:05:45 PM

I think it's "mature" in that they finally develop the Sam/Frodo romance that develops on Brokeback Mountain.

Frodo:  "Gimme the Ring, bitch!"
Sam:  "I wish I could quit you!"



Quote
Randal Graves: That look was so gay. I thought Sam was gonna tell the little hobbits to take a walk so he could saunter over to Frodo and suck his f*cking cock. Now *that* would have been an Academy Award worthy ending.
Hobbit Lover: Hey faggot, they're not gay! They're hobbits!
Randal Graves: And then, right after the Sam/Frodo suckfest, right before the credits roll, Sam f*cking flat out bricks in Frodo's mouth.
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« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2010, 06:53:26 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on June 14, 2010, 06:03:09 PM

I lost interest in this one when a preview I read talked at length about how one of the characters is a wizard (not a Wizard. A wizard. Like a spellcasting human. Those don't exist in Lord of the Rings).

Huh?  Isn't that what Gandalf is?

I'm not really into the LotR universe, but I've watched the movies and I thought that's what it looked like he was.
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« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2010, 06:56:07 PM »

What spells have you read Gandalf casting? Its more subtle than that, and its the same issues LOTRO had with purists...
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« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2010, 07:03:02 PM »

Quote from: KePoW on June 14, 2010, 06:53:26 PM

Quote from: TiLT on June 14, 2010, 06:03:09 PM

I lost interest in this one when a preview I read talked at length about how one of the characters is a wizard (not a Wizard. A wizard. Like a spellcasting human. Those don't exist in Lord of the Rings).

Huh?  Isn't that what Gandalf is?

I'm not really into the LotR universe, but I've watched the movies and I thought that's what it looked like he was.

I pointed out that this game contains a wizard, not a Wizard. The difference that capital letter makes is very important when it comes to LOTR. The latter is a race of 5 half-gods (Maiar actually. Gandalf and Saruman being among them. The other three were Radagast, Alatar and Pallando. The character in this game is neither of these). They are not human. The former is something that doesn't exist in LOTR.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2010, 07:06:53 PM by TiLT » Logged
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« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2010, 07:09:54 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on June 14, 2010, 07:03:02 PM

Quote from: KePoW on June 14, 2010, 06:53:26 PM

Quote from: TiLT on June 14, 2010, 06:03:09 PM

I lost interest in this one when a preview I read talked at length about how one of the characters is a wizard (not a Wizard. A wizard. Like a spellcasting human. Those don't exist in Lord of the Rings).

Huh?  Isn't that what Gandalf is?

I'm not really into the LotR universe, but I've watched the movies and I thought that's what it looked like he was.

I pointed out that this game contains a wizard, not a Wizard. The difference that capital letter makes is very important when it comes to LOTR. The latter is a race of 5 half-gods (Maiar actually. Gandalf and Saruman being among them. The other three were Radagast, Alatar and Pallando. The character in this game is neither of these). They are not human. The former is something that doesn't exist in LOTR.

Oh ok, I don't read the books or anything.

But for the mass-population gamers like me, does it really matter?  As long as the game is fun and well-developed.
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« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2010, 07:26:03 PM »

Quote from: KePoW on June 14, 2010, 07:09:54 PM

Quote from: TiLT on June 14, 2010, 07:03:02 PM

Quote from: KePoW on June 14, 2010, 06:53:26 PM

Quote from: TiLT on June 14, 2010, 06:03:09 PM

I lost interest in this one when a preview I read talked at length about how one of the characters is a wizard (not a Wizard. A wizard. Like a spellcasting human. Those don't exist in Lord of the Rings).

Huh?  Isn't that what Gandalf is?

I'm not really into the LotR universe, but I've watched the movies and I thought that's what it looked like he was.

I pointed out that this game contains a wizard, not a Wizard. The difference that capital letter makes is very important when it comes to LOTR. The latter is a race of 5 half-gods (Maiar actually. Gandalf and Saruman being among them. The other three were Radagast, Alatar and Pallando. The character in this game is neither of these). They are not human. The former is something that doesn't exist in LOTR.

Oh ok, I don't read the books or anything.

But for the mass-population gamers like me, does it really matter?  As long as the game is fun and well-developed.

Yes, I believe it does matter. It seriously dilutes the source material. I mean, look at yourself! You actually thought that there were wizards in the LOTR universe, probably because you've seen them in games or you just made an assumption based on generic fantasy, and there are probably a lot of people who think the same. Neither the books nor the movies contain any spellcasters apart from the Maiar. In a time when games are such a considerable part of culture as they have become, I feel it's important that things are done properly and with respect.

There's also the fact that by using the LOTR name and breaking the setting in such a heavy-handed way, the developers will be pushing away the fans of the setting instead of pulling them in.
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« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2010, 07:35:58 PM »

I wanna play a Hobbit wizard paladin who cats balls of holy fire to smite the enemy hordes of skeletons!
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« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2010, 08:56:21 PM »

CG trailer.
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« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2010, 09:03:46 PM »

Quote from: CeeKay on June 14, 2010, 07:35:58 PM

I wanna play a Hobbit wizard paladin who cats balls of holy fire to smite the enemy hordes of skeletons!

Did you play the Star Wars RPG as a force-sensitive Ewok with Force Lightning?
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« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2010, 10:26:10 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on June 14, 2010, 07:26:03 PM

Yes, I believe it does matter. It seriously dilutes the source material. I mean, look at yourself! You actually thought that there were wizards in the LOTR universe, probably because you've seen them in games or you just made an assumption based on generic fantasy, and there are probably a lot of people who think the same. Neither the books nor the movies contain any spellcasters apart from the Maiar. In a time when games are such a considerable part of culture as they have become, I feel it's important that things are done properly and with respect.

Is it that hard to disassociate yourself from a game and the lore material?  I don't freak out while playing Lego Star Wars because the real characters aren't made of Lego blocks!
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« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2010, 10:39:34 PM »

Quote from: skystride on June 14, 2010, 10:26:10 PM

Quote from: TiLT on June 14, 2010, 07:26:03 PM

Yes, I believe it does matter. It seriously dilutes the source material. I mean, look at yourself! You actually thought that there were wizards in the LOTR universe, probably because you've seen them in games or you just made an assumption based on generic fantasy, and there are probably a lot of people who think the same. Neither the books nor the movies contain any spellcasters apart from the Maiar. In a time when games are such a considerable part of culture as they have become, I feel it's important that things are done properly and with respect.

Is it that hard to disassociate yourself from a game and the lore material?  I don't freak out while playing Lego Star Wars because the real characters aren't made of Lego blocks!

WTF?  Han Solo isn't made of Legos?!?!  Where's the spoiler alert!!!!
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« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2010, 04:38:49 AM »

Quote from: skystride on June 14, 2010, 10:26:10 PM

Quote from: TiLT on June 14, 2010, 07:26:03 PM

Yes, I believe it does matter. It seriously dilutes the source material. I mean, look at yourself! You actually thought that there were wizards in the LOTR universe, probably because you've seen them in games or you just made an assumption based on generic fantasy, and there are probably a lot of people who think the same. Neither the books nor the movies contain any spellcasters apart from the Maiar. In a time when games are such a considerable part of culture as they have become, I feel it's important that things are done properly and with respect.

Is it that hard to disassociate yourself from a game and the lore material?  I don't freak out while playing Lego Star Wars because the real characters aren't made of Lego blocks!

The obvious difference is that Lego Star Wars is a parody of the source material, and as such doesn't hurt it.
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« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2010, 12:53:32 PM »

As a huge huge fan of Tolkein's work, I must say I agree with Tilt.  There is a depth to the Tolkein universe (including one of the most beautiful creation myths I have ever read) that shouldn't be messed with, imho -- it is moving enough and deep enough as it is.  It was offensive enough that the 2nd two movies in the Jackson series took such liberties with the text to keep themselves in the "blockbuster" realm, but now games (yes even you, LotRO), are further diluting the richness.  Many children and adolescents, most even, will never read the books and will take Jackson's Tolkein and Gaming's Tolkein as canonical Tolkein.  Something beautiful, unique and truly life-affirming is going away.

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« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2010, 01:01:56 PM »

Is it videogames job to educate about cultural things, like Lord of the Rings books?  I dont think so.

If an executive was presented the choice between making a popular version of a wellknown brand, or a faithfull but relatively unknown version, which one do you suppose would be chosen?

While we can wish for things to be different, the classical education one might wish on the "masses", is not likely to happen.

I happen to like both versions, and while a big fan of Tolkien and what he created, one must also consider that times change, and so does the media and the way we tell stories. For some this may be seen as bastardization of a well-known brand, but its also the way stories are told today (The blockbuster realm) and as such, what movie and game executives must adhere to.
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« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2010, 01:19:22 PM »

Quote from: Hotfreak on June 15, 2010, 12:53:32 PM

Many children and adolescents, most even, will never read the books and will take Jackson's Tolkein and Gaming's Tolkein as canonical Tolkein.  Something beautiful, unique and truly life-affirming is going away.

Better the bastardization than nothing at all? Tolkien is *not* easy to read. Harry Potter and Twilight are. Guess which are going to get read.
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« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2010, 02:14:34 PM »

Quote from: Isgrimnur on June 14, 2010, 09:03:46 PM

Quote from: CeeKay on June 14, 2010, 07:35:58 PM

I wanna play a Hobbit wizard paladin who cats balls of holy fire to smite the enemy hordes of skeletons!

Did you play the Star Wars RPG as a force-sensitive Ewok with Force Lightning?

of course not.


it was a Gungan.

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« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2010, 03:38:05 PM »

I can't imagine hobbits without their gayness for each other.  Dreamy stares into each others eyes as they profess their adoration for one another is just part of the gig.  That's why this game needs to focus on nothing but hobbits, a party of free loving hobits fighting evil together.  It's a proven formula for success.  If 300 brotherly Spartans can stop 10,000, imagine what a party of 6 hobbits could do?  Forget lore butchering human wizards, I want to see 6 hobbits shield to shield, holding hands, singing songs and kicking evil's ass all over Middle Earth. 
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« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2010, 12:07:24 PM »

I don't want to get in a debate about canon, preserving the old (true conservatism), economic viability, education etc.  There are many reasons why someone would take liberties with the source material -- and almost all of them have to do with making money, when it comes down to it.  We all know this and don't need to be told again. 

My comments have nothing to do with economic efficacy, but neither are they cynical.  And since reading is being presented here as such a challenge to a society which can consume "the gist of it" so much easier and faster by playing a game or seeing a movie, let me just reiterate this simple sentiment (from Tilt):

Quote
...I feel it's important that things are done properly and with respect.

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« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2010, 12:09:51 PM »

Quote from: Roguetad on June 15, 2010, 03:38:05 PM

I can't imagine hobbits without their gayness for each other.  Dreamy stares into each others eyes as they profess their adoration for one another is just part of the gig.  That's why this game needs to focus on nothing but hobbits, a party of free loving hobits fighting evil together.  It's a proven formula for success.  If 300 brotherly Spartans can stop 10,000, imagine what a party of 6 hobbits could do?  Forget lore butchering human wizards, I want to see 6 hobbits shield to shield, holding hands, singing songs and kicking evil's ass all over Middle Earth. 
Agreed.  But why 6 hobbits?  I don't see that number in the books.
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« Reply #30 on: June 16, 2010, 12:27:07 PM »

Quote from: Hotfreak on June 16, 2010, 12:09:51 PM

Quote from: Roguetad on June 15, 2010, 03:38:05 PM

I can't imagine hobbits without their gayness for each other.  Dreamy stares into each others eyes as they profess their adoration for one another is just part of the gig.  That's why this game needs to focus on nothing but hobbits, a party of free loving hobits fighting evil together.  It's a proven formula for success.  If 300 brotherly Spartans can stop 10,000, imagine what a party of 6 hobbits could do?  Forget lore butchering human wizards, I want to see 6 hobbits shield to shield, holding hands, singing songs and kicking evil's ass all over Middle Earth. 
Agreed.  But why 6 hobbits?  I don't see that number in the books.

It's Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin, plus a wizard hobbit and a cleric hobbit that were vaguely alluded to in the books if you squint and turn your head a little and read a different book. Tongue
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« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2010, 12:52:23 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on June 16, 2010, 12:27:07 PM

Quote from: Hotfreak on June 16, 2010, 12:09:51 PM

Quote from: Roguetad on June 15, 2010, 03:38:05 PM

I can't imagine hobbits without their gayness for each other.  Dreamy stares into each others eyes as they profess their adoration for one another is just part of the gig.  That's why this game needs to focus on nothing but hobbits, a party of free loving hobits fighting evil together.  It's a proven formula for success.  If 300 brotherly Spartans can stop 10,000, imagine what a party of 6 hobbits could do?  Forget lore butchering human wizards, I want to see 6 hobbits shield to shield, holding hands, singing songs and kicking evil's ass all over Middle Earth.  
Agreed.  But why 6 hobbits?  I don't see that number in the books.

It's Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin, plus a wizard hobbit and a cleric hobbit that were vaguely alluded to in the books if you squint and turn your head a little and read a different book. Tongue
okay, fair enough, but who is going to find traps and disarm them?
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« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2010, 01:35:18 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on June 16, 2010, 12:27:07 PM

Quote from: Hotfreak on June 16, 2010, 12:09:51 PM

Quote from: Roguetad on June 15, 2010, 03:38:05 PM

I can't imagine hobbits without their gayness for each other.  Dreamy stares into each others eyes as they profess their adoration for one another is just part of the gig.  That's why this game needs to focus on nothing but hobbits, a party of free loving hobits fighting evil together.  It's a proven formula for success.  If 300 brotherly Spartans can stop 10,000, imagine what a party of 6 hobbits could do?  Forget lore butchering human wizards, I want to see 6 hobbits shield to shield, holding hands, singing songs and kicking evil's ass all over Middle Earth. 
Agreed.  But why 6 hobbits?  I don't see that number in the books.

It's Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin, plus a wizard hobbit and a cleric hobbit that were vaguely alluded to in the books if you squint and turn your head a little and read a different book. Tongue
Exactly.  I think they all have some dual class rogue, so they could take turns disarming bombs, I mean traps.
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« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2010, 02:04:56 PM »

Quote from: Hotfreak on June 16, 2010, 12:52:23 PM

Quote from: TiLT on June 16, 2010, 12:27:07 PM

Quote from: Hotfreak on June 16, 2010, 12:09:51 PM

Quote from: Roguetad on June 15, 2010, 03:38:05 PM

I can't imagine hobbits without their gayness for each other.  Dreamy stares into each others eyes as they profess their adoration for one another is just part of the gig.  That's why this game needs to focus on nothing but hobbits, a party of free loving hobits fighting evil together.  It's a proven formula for success.  If 300 brotherly Spartans can stop 10,000, imagine what a party of 6 hobbits could do?  Forget lore butchering human wizards, I want to see 6 hobbits shield to shield, holding hands, singing songs and kicking evil's ass all over Middle Earth.  
Agreed.  But why 6 hobbits?  I don't see that number in the books.

It's Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin, plus a wizard hobbit and a cleric hobbit that were vaguely alluded to in the books if you squint and turn your head a little and read a different book. Tongue
okay, fair enough, but who is going to find traps and disarm them?

that would be the ninja Hobbit who comes back from the far East.
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« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2010, 04:01:50 PM »

Quote from: Hotfreak on June 15, 2010, 12:53:32 PM

 Many children and adolescents, most even, will never read the books and will take Jackson's Tolkein and Gaming's Tolkein as canonical Tolkein.  


Nonsense.  How many kids today do you think are reading those novels because of the movies?  Now how many of those would have read them if the movies never came out?  Not many.  I have two nephews who are readign them now and never would have if not for the movies.  The movies (love or hate them) reinvogarted al lthings Tolkein and helped expose a whole new generation to them that would have never given them a thought.
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« Reply #35 on: June 16, 2010, 04:09:13 PM »

Quote from: Hotfreak on June 15, 2010, 12:53:32 PM

As a huge huge fan of Tolkein's work, I must say I agree with Tilt.  There is a depth to the Tolkein universe (including one of the most beautiful creation myths I have ever read) that shouldn't be messed with, imho -- it is moving enough and deep enough as it is.  It was offensive enough that the 2nd two movies in the Jackson series took such liberties with the text to keep themselves in the "blockbuster" realm, but now games (yes even you, LotRO), are further diluting the richness.  Many children and adolescents, most even, will never read the books and will take Jackson's Tolkein and Gaming's Tolkein as canonical Tolkein.  Something beautiful, unique and truly life-affirming is going away.

I understand the sentiment.  However, there are magical artifacts/items in the books, so one could just have the item be the source of the "wizard's" power.  Heck, one could say that Bilbo and Frodo were "wizards" in a loose sense due to their use of the one ring.
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Roguetad
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« Reply #36 on: June 16, 2010, 05:40:49 PM »

Quote from: Fez on June 16, 2010, 04:09:13 PM

Heck, one could say that Bilbo and Frodo were "wizards" in a loose sense due to their use of the one ring.

I like where you're going with this...that Frodo and Bilbo were hobbit wizards.  I think Merry and Pippin were hobbit druids.  I've always suspected that events in the forest happened a little differently than what's portrayed in the books and movies.  I think what might have happened was that Merry and Pippin were frustrated and lost, got high from whatever they ate, drank or smoke, imagined they were having conversations with the trees, and then *hobbit druid magic*... they created an army of Ents ready for war.  It makes sense.  

Bilbo could cast weapon enchants...Frodo could shadowstep...Sam could conjure food...Smeigel shapeshifted into a fish hobbit.  
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Hotfreak
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« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2010, 08:41:45 PM »

Quote from: morlac on June 16, 2010, 04:01:50 PM

Quote from: Hotfreak on June 15, 2010, 12:53:32 PM

Many children and adolescents, most even, will never read the books and will take Jackson's Tolkein and Gaming's Tolkein as canonical Tolkein.  


Nonsense.  How many kids today do you think are reading those novels because of the movies?  Now how many of those would have read them if the movies never came out?  Not many.  I have two nephews who are readign them now and never would have if not for the movies.  The movies (love or hate them) reinvogarted al lthings Tolkein and helped expose a whole new generation to them that would have never given them a thought.
Touche.  But your assertions are just as much conjecture as my "nonsense" statement.  I know many people too who will never read the books because they can just watch the movies, etc.  This argument goes nowhere.  Thank you for pointing that out in my original post.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 09:23:15 PM by Hotfreak » Logged

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KePoW
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« Reply #38 on: June 16, 2010, 08:48:53 PM »

Quote from: Hotfreak on June 16, 2010, 08:41:45 PM

Quote from: morlac on June 16, 2010, 04:01:50 PM

Quote from: Hotfreak on June 15, 2010, 12:53:32 PM

 Many children and adolescents, most even, will never read the books and will take Jackson's Tolkein and Gaming's Tolkein as canonical Tolkein.  


Nonsense.  How many kids today do you think are reading those novels because of the movies?  Now how many of those would have read them if the movies never came out?  Not many.  I have two nephews who are readign them now and never would have if not for the movies.  The movies (love or hate them) reinvogarted al lthings Tolkein and helped expose a whole new generation to them that would have never given them a thought.
Touche.  But your assertions are just as much conjecture as my "nonsense" statement.  I know many people too who will never read the books because they can just watch the movies, etc.  This argument goes nowhere.  Thank you for pointing that out in my original post.

Btw, can we avoid insults?  I'm probably taking it the wrong way, but was a little irritated, despite agreeing with you.  icon_wink

How in the world did he insult you?  He didn't say anything personal whatsoever.

"Nonsense" is not personal.  Might want to lighten up... thick skin is a virtue.
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Hotfreak
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« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2010, 09:22:42 PM »

Quote from: KePoW on June 16, 2010, 08:48:53 PM

Quote from: Hotfreak on June 16, 2010, 08:41:45 PM

Quote from: morlac on June 16, 2010, 04:01:50 PM

Quote from: Hotfreak on June 15, 2010, 12:53:32 PM

 Many children and adolescents, most even, will never read the books and will take Jackson's Tolkein and Gaming's Tolkein as canonical Tolkein.  


Nonsense.  How many kids today do you think are reading those novels because of the movies?  Now how many of those would have read them if the movies never came out?  Not many.  I have two nephews who are readign them now and never would have if not for the movies.  The movies (love or hate them) reinvogarted al lthings Tolkein and helped expose a whole new generation to them that would have never given them a thought.
Touche.  But your assertions are just as much conjecture as my "nonsense" statement.  I know many people too who will never read the books because they can just watch the movies, etc.  This argument goes nowhere.  Thank you for pointing that out in my original post.

Btw, can we avoid insults?  I'm probably taking it the wrong way, but was a little irritated, despite agreeing with you.  icon_wink

How in the world did he insult you?  He didn't say anything personal whatsoever.

"Nonsense" is not personal.  Might want to lighten up... thick skin is a virtue.
True.  Bad day. Sorry. Making the edit.  Derail over.  paranoid
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