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Author Topic: The Feminine Form...  (Read 1215 times)
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DiamondDecision
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« on: December 10, 2005, 01:36:19 PM »

What kind of rubbish is on the news page of GamingTrend?  Are you guys that hard up for a news post?

Yes, do game designers put supermodels in games?  Of course!  It's not because they are trying to mock woman, it's because they are beautiful and appealing to look at.

Statements like this are just ridiculous - "...the woman's every movement revealed a risible mockery of the female form and insulted our intelligence. Exit game, uninstall and abandon ship."


GamingTrend, please stick to articles about games and leave the opinions of 13-year-olds off of the news page.
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Gratch
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« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2005, 02:19:00 PM »

Dude, it's a link to an opinion piece.  Not really that big of a deal.
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DiamondDecision
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« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2005, 02:20:34 PM »

Yeah, I probably do sound a bit too animated. ;-)  I'm soooooooooo tired of seeing articles like that though.
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CrayolaSmoker
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« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2005, 02:48:43 PM »

Quote from: "DiamondDecision"
Yes, do game designers put supermodels in games?  Of course!  It's not because they are trying to mock woman, it's because they are beautiful and appealing to look at.

Um, no.  They put supermodels in games because they sell.  There's a whole host of psychosocial factors on why that is.  One can't simply boil it down to "they are beautiful and appealing to look at."

Quote
Statements like this are just ridiculous - "...the woman's every movement revealed a risible mockery of the female form and insulted our intelligence. Exit game, uninstall and abandon ship."

It's not a particularly poignant statement, and certainly loses its impact when taken out of context.  When taken by themselves, both paragraphs smack of someone trying way too damn hard.  Using the first two paragraphs of the article as the teaser would've served the article and (arguably) reader interest far better.  This is a case where shooting the messenger would be an appropriate course of action. biggrin

Quote
GamingTrend, please stick to articles about games and leave the opinions of 13-year-olds off of the news page.

While the article has the meandering feel of a term paper forced to be longer than the subject warrants, the article is well researched and fairly well written.  Hardly the hallmark of a 13-year-old.  And judging from the following folks like Paris Hilton have, I doubt many 13-year-old females are that concerned about the portrayal of the female form.  Having been a 13-year-old male, I'm pretty sure they're not looking to change the face of videogaming, and instead are looking to hit it.

Give the article itself a try.  It reads better than the GT blurb would lead you to believe.
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DiamondDecision
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« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2005, 03:12:38 PM »

Quote from: "CrayolaSmoker"
Quote from: "DiamondDecision"
Yes, do game designers put supermodels in games?  Of course!  It's not because they are trying to mock woman, it's because they are beautiful and appealing to look at.

Um, no.  They put supermodels in games because they sell.  There's a whole host of psychosocial factors on why that is.  One can't simply boil it down to "they are beautiful and appealing to look at."


We don't disagree, we agree here. My point in indicating that something beautiful and appealing is put in the game is that obviously enhances the overall appeal of the game.  Of course it helps to sell the game.

Quote from: "CrayolaSmoker"
Quote
Statements like this are just ridiculous - "...the woman's every movement revealed a risible mockery of the female form and insulted our intelligence. Exit game, uninstall and abandon ship."

It's not a particularly poignant statement, and certainly loses its impact when taken out of context.  When taken by themselves, both paragraphs smack of someone trying way too damn hard.  Using the first two paragraphs of the article as the teaser would've served the article and (arguably) reader interest far better.  This is a case where shooting the messenger would be an appropriate course of action. biggrin


Actually, I think GT actually quoted one of the more lowkey paragraphs.  See below for even more outrageous claims from the article.  It truly gets much wose.

Quote from: "CrayolaSmoker"
Quote
GamingTrend, please stick to articles about games and leave the opinions of 13-year-olds off of the news page.

While the article has the meandering feel of a term paper forced to be longer than the subject warrants, the article is well researched... <snip>


We can certainly agree to disagree here. Again, the claims in this paper are just outrageous.  The person clearly has a vendetta against showing a woman in a womanly way.

Quote from: "CrayolaSmoker"
...and fairly well written.


The grammar and punctuation are fine as long as you can stomach a lot of crapola and outrageous claims.

Quote from: "CrayolaSmoker"
Hardly the hallmark of a 13-year-old.  And judging from the following folks like Paris Hilton have, I doubt many 13-year-old females are that concerned about the portrayal of the female form.  Having been a 13-year-old male, I'm pretty sure they're not looking to change the face of videogaming, and instead are looking to hit it.

Give the article itself a try.  It reads better than the GT blurb would lead you to believe.


The fuller article is certainly more ridiculous and outrageous than the blurb indicates.  Here is a sampling of some of the more inane comments:

"...Naomi Wolf is much more blunt. In her book The Beauty Myth, she argues that this very standard of beauty set forth by the media is the primary mechanism of women’s oppression by men."

Men are trying to oppress woman?  Oh please!  

Like that statement?  How about this one... "Camille Paglia, in her book Sexual Personae, maintains that at the core, women represent nature, and man strives to control nature, thus he strives to control woman."

More wild talk.  Ridiculous.
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-Lord Ebonstone-
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« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2005, 06:54:37 PM »

Are you a chick?  No?  Then Shhhh.
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mytocles
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« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2005, 07:54:31 PM »

You know, it took me forever to read all these posts and the article and start thinking about what I wanted to write back... and all the nested quotes just confuse my poor mind.

For now (more later, possibly), I will say two things:  ONE - I love that quote that goes something like "shame on you for bringing a knife to a gun fight" - and that's all I can think of when I see the "armor" on the women in games. And when I don't even have a choice to play as a female character with reasonable armor for the challenge - then I play as a man, because I can't stand watching this dopey female wearing two bottle caps and a metal triangle as armor - and it's supposed to be me fighting those aliens or zombies. :?

The second thing I want to say is that Lord Ebonstone nailed it (thank you!) -
Quote
Are you a chick? No? Then Shhhh.
- If you're not, say,  African American, then you can only imagine or empathize to some extent what it's like day-to-day to be African American - you can't know  (or Asian, or Muslim, or "anything else" - including a Caucasian Male!)  If you're not a woman,  you really don't know how all the "little insults" build up to affect "some of us" - I don't plan on speaking for all women here. I worked in a male-dominated profession for 35 years, and have an incredible number of examples for you, if you're at all interested.  If not, just trust me - you can get quite prickly after awhile, even if the "unintentional insults" were small - believe me, they were numerous, unending - and sometimes quite large.

I thought the article was quite reasonable, there were a few comments that I thought could be easily misunderstood - "Irony, how I love you!" - but most of it was pretty spot-on.

That's really all I have time for now, I'm supposed to be traveling to another state for a birthday party... but I'll be glad to answer anyone's questions, and review what I said (which was in a hurry, lol), to see if it was not quite right.   smile
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DiamondDecision
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« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2005, 08:39:42 PM »

The author of the quoted article is a woman that seems to have a complete insight into male motivations even though she's a woman.  Are you going to quiet her as well?  Be consistent here Lord Ebonstone.

Quite simply Lord Ebonstone, there are some very serious charges in her work; namely, that men are systematically oppressing women.  That's a very serious charge.  If she feels that strongly, she should file a class action lawsuit.  Apparently, you don't mind (and evidently agree!?) the charge that YOU do oppress women?  Since I do NOT do that, a take great offense at her charge.

Quote from: "-Lord Ebonstone-"
Are you a chick?  No?  Then Shhhh.
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DiamondDecision
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« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2005, 08:40:27 PM »

The same reply I gave Lord Ebonstone applies to you as well.  

What this author is setting forth as charges against the male population is quite serious and not to be taken lightly.

As far as your endorsement ("...spot on"), we will simply agree to disagree.

By the way, are you male or female?

Quote from: "mytocles"
You know, it took me forever to read all these posts and the article and start thinking about what I wanted to write back... and all the nested quotes just confuse my poor mind.

For now (more later, possibly), I will say two things:  ONE - I love that quote that goes something like "shame on you for bringing a knife to a gun fight" - and that's all I can think of when I see the "armor" on the women in games. And when I don't even have a choice to play as a female character with reasonable armor for the challenge - then I play as a man, because I can't stand watching this dopey female wearing two bottle caps and a metal triangle as armor - and it's supposed to be me fighting those aliens or zombies. :?

The second thing I want to say is that Lord Ebonstone nailed it (thank you!) -
Quote
Are you a chick? No? Then Shhhh.
- If you're not, say,  African American, then you can only imagine or empathize to some extent what it's like day-to-day to be African American - you can't know  (or Asian, or Muslim, or "anything else" - including a Caucasian Male!)  If you're not a woman,  you really don't know how all the "little insults" build up to affect "some of us" - I don't plan on speaking for all women here. I worked in a male-dominated profession for 35 years, and have an incredible number of examples for you, if you're at all interested.  If not, just trust me - you can get quite prickly after awhile, even if the "unintentional insults" were small - believe me, they were numerous, unending - and sometimes quite large.

I thought the article was quite reasonable, there were a few comments that I thought could be easily misunderstood - "Irony, how I love you!" - but most of it was pretty spot-on.

That's really all I have time for now, I'm supposed to be traveling to another state for a birthday party... but I'll be glad to answer anyone's questions, and review what I said (which was in a hurry, lol), to see if it was not quite right.   smile
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stiffler
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« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2005, 01:36:34 AM »

Quote from: "DiamondDecision"
By the way, are you male or female?


Mytocles is a female.  Or at least she plays one on the internet. Cool
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Thin_J
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« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2005, 06:59:26 AM »

Quote from: "stiffler"
Quote from: "DiamondDecision"
By the way, are you male or female?


Mytocles is a female.  Or at least she plays one on the internet. Cool


This is so fitting right now.

It's also hilarious.
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« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2005, 07:07:06 AM »

As someone who doesn't like bikini armor on female characters for practical use, you can rest assured I will b

Now, if they're just showing off, sure. slywink

As for the physical form.  I like drawing women that aren't the typical supermodel beautiful, guess I'm just spoiled by all the beautiful artsy girls at my college.

One day, I'm hoping to do the art for a game that includes many strong female characters that don't adhere to the cliched bikini armored supermodel.
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mytocles
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« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2005, 05:30:29 PM »

Thin_J, that's great!  :lol:   I have a hard time convincing anyone online (PS2) that I am: A) a woman, and;  B) 53 years old.  What really irritates me is when they say that I'm only saying that so I can trashtalk that a "girl" beat them - like that would be terribly shameful for them.  

Same old, same old - sometimes it's the little stuff that just puts you on a slow burn, until just the right thing makes you boil over.

Some of my pet peeves include when the gym coach calls a boy "girl" because he limps off the court if he hurts his knee or whatever.  Bill Parcels (with Patriots) said "ask her" when asked if Terry Glenn would be able to play the next game.  My Police Chief referred to the 55 "men" in his department in a half-page news article about our police department - a statement he made 6 times in the article - and the word "policemen" I couldn't even count (apparently I didn't exist). I also had several co-workers who could not look me in the face when talking to me when I was in civvies - using the permanent "foot or so below eye-level" stare that some men don't even know they're doing.

Another Chief gave me a letter of commendation for the morale-lifting event of making sandwiches for one of our firearms qualification days (we'd all agreed ahead of time who would bring what, and I volunteered that).  It just happened to be the same week I chased, tackled, and arrested a rapist... no letter for that.

I had a sargeant,who'd been transferred to my shift, and his wife was hyper jealous - so he set up a series of events to prove that I wasn't doing my job and should be fired.  Luckily, I had plenty of witnesses and great job evaluations, and it was he that paid the price. But it was a long, obnoxious, stressful (even dangerous) event.

Don't get me wrong - I love men!  I've worked for 25 years with mostly men, "some of my best friends are men" - and I feel like I have a ton of cool brothers here.  But, the little insults to women, particularly at work and in some public places - that go on pretty much every day, gets quite wearing for us after awhile.

I know that males have their own complaints - and I did not realize the author of the article is a woman - but please, DD, don't think that all the little things don't add up, or that they're not legitimate because you've read about them before...

And just because you feel that you don't oppress women - although you seem to be inordinately upset about this whole issue - doesn't mean it doesn't happen.  Much of what the author mentioned can be found in introductory Sociology, Anthropology,  Psychology - even Biology textbooks.  And she seemed to be referring to other peoples' works more often than expressing her own opinion.  

Plus, please calm down a little about comments regarding the systematic oppression of women by men... first of all, there's no mention that any of it was done consciously (although some of it has been, historically), or that all men engage in it.  A Chill Pill with a side of Anti-Defensive supplement might help a bit - IMO, your posts are a bit harsh-sounding. And I don't mean that in a bad way...  :lol:  

I totally believe in the right of free speech - so carry on, but let others do their thing as well...

*rant over*   Tongue
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Mytocles (MY-toe-cleez)

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- I don't remember who said it, and probably neither do they...
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