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Author Topic: The anything BUT Jade Empire discussion thread  (Read 15811 times)
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dandylife
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« Reply #80 on: April 12, 2005, 04:19:25 AM »

Quote from: "Rage"
perhaps read the several above posts (and many other threads on the forums) where many discuss that they feel the same way about Kasavin's XBox reviews in general before going batshit? It may certainly not be true, but I have read enough of his XBox reviews to feel like there is a negative bias there-although Kevin may be right, it might just be bias against everything.


Gamespot doesn't score inflate.  They also aren't as generous towards the Splinter Cell series as alot of other sites, but they do this with other games, too, both on and off the Xbox.  Just look at their MGS 3 review.  Or their Deus Ex review.  Or, hell, what about their F-Zero GX review?  Many of his complaints are completely valid.  

It all comes down to expectations.  Greg expects more.  Sites like IGN generally review games as if each and every one of them exists in a vacuum.  Gamespot always reviews a game with great attention paid to what has already been done by past games.  The law of diminishing returns is always in effect.  Splinter Cell doesn't get a better review because it's on rails (Thief, 5 years before, much more open ended.  MGS 2, more flexible AI).  Chaos Theory doesn't get a better review because the multiplayer, already introduced in Pandora Tomorrow, is nitch oriented, the coop actions, controlled by one, context sensitive button, always the same, feel artificial, and the single player, while not as linear, is still not open ended like Theif 1 and 2 were 7 and 6 years ago.  Jade Empire has underdeveloped combat and unsatisfying character progression.  KotoR was grander in scale.  So all these games get lower scores.  If Greg hates the Xbox, then why did the ports of the Splinter Cell series not score higher on their respective platforms?  What about the Halo and Kotor ports?  How come they weren't higher on the PC?  If Greg hates the Xbox, what better way to manifest it than knocking up the scores for the ports?

At any rate, my initial post burned with the irritation of hearing everyone bash Gamespot repeatedly over a silly little number (why is everyone so obsessed with quantification anyway - are games such a souless experience that they can't be given scoreless reviews?  or, more likely, gamers just couldn't handle such an occurence) that means not much at all without it's respective review in tow, and KD's comment put me over the edge, so apologies where necessary for being crazy harsh.  But I stand by the meaning of what I initially said.
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« Reply #81 on: April 12, 2005, 04:24:23 AM »

Quote from: "dandylife"

  Jade Empire has underdeveloped combat and unsatisfying character progression.  KotoR was grander in scale.  So all these games get lower scores.  If Greg hates the Xbox, then why did the ports of the Splinter Cell series not score higher on their respective platforms?  What about the Halo and Kotor ports?  How come they weren't higher on the PC?  If Greg hates the Xbox, what better way to manifest it than knocking up the scores for the ports?


The only parts of the post that I take issue with: For Jade Empire, come on man, at least PLAY the game or get more impressions before you automatically agree with him (of course that goes for us fanboys and the positive reviews as well). From everything BUT gamespot that I have read, character progression is not only satisfying, its some of the best in recent memory-they say that the story is superb, the cast of characters fascinating, and that the character development with skills and paths is pretty developed-but anyways!

The other thing with regards to the ports is that I think almost every game you listed happens to be a significantly WORSE port than the original, which would not allow for better scores.
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dandylife
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« Reply #82 on: April 12, 2005, 04:24:45 AM »

Quote from: "Knightshade Dragon"
There are no ads for Jade Empire running on my site, I receive absolutely nothing but your respect for my honest opinion.  We may disagree at the end of the day, but it really is what I believe.  The same will be true when we do run ads for the major publishers...I assure you that when I hand a 79 to a developer or publisher they tell me that it is a fair and balanced review.  They may not like it because its not some gushing BEST GAME EVAR review like other sites, but I'm always honest.  I'd shut Console Gold down before I let it become some of the cesspool sites I've seen.


It warms my heart to hear this, KD, it really does.  As the game industry becomes increasingly massified, the temptations to go with the money will surely increase, and choosing to do as you describe above will probably become harder.  I hope you continue to stick it out and stay true to yourself and your opinion.

Quote from: "Knightshade Dragon"
You want to know why I think Gamespot doesn't play fair? I go there this afternoon and I get...

Quote:
You have been banned from the GameSpot Forums.


Impressive bunch of mods there eh?


This is certainly suspect.  You post anything there recently?  They give you a reason for the ban?
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« Reply #83 on: April 12, 2005, 04:35:22 AM »

Quote
This is certainly suspect. You post anything there recently? They give you a reason for the ban?

Somebody posted a link to my review, I offered to answer their questions same as I did on Evil's site, Ve3d, and a few others.  Didn't engage in any flaming or the like, they just don't like the independent voice.

Edit:
http://forums.gamespot.com/gamespot/show_messages.php?board=314159268&topic=20367023&message=218187181#M218187181

There ya go, follow the asshat.
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« Reply #84 on: April 12, 2005, 05:07:45 AM »

Quote
Gamespot always reviews a game with great attention paid to what has already been done by past games. The law of diminishing returns is always in effect.


This is a big one in understanding GS's review policies.  By default they tend to rate sequels lower even if they are objectively better than the original.  It generally takes a sequel making great strides (for example Pandora Tomorrow's innovative multilplayer) or a significant change in direction to warrant a significant upcheck in ratings for sequels.
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Kevin Grey
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« Reply #85 on: April 12, 2005, 05:08:56 AM »

Quote from: "Knightshade Dragon"
Quote
This is certainly suspect. You post anything there recently? They give you a reason for the ban?

Somebody posted a link to my review, I offered to answer their questions same as I did on Evil's site, Ve3d, and a few others.  Didn't engage in any flaming or the like, they just don't like the independent voice.

Edit:
http://forums.gamespot.com/gamespot/show_messages.php?board=314159268&topic=20367023&message=218187181#M218187181

There ya go, follow the asshat.


But is there any overlap between forum moderation and those who write/run the site?  Genuine question- I don't think I've ever visited their forums.
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« Reply #86 on: April 12, 2005, 05:14:08 AM »

Quote from: "Knightshade Dragon"
You want to know why I think Gamespot doesn't play fair?   I go there this afternoon and I get...

Quote
You have been banned from the GameSpot Forums.


Impressive bunch of mods there eh?


Well you'll still have the IGN Boards, right?

Mwaaahaaaahaaaa!
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« Reply #87 on: April 12, 2005, 05:19:16 AM »

Quote from: "Knightshade Dragon"
Quote
This is certainly suspect. You post anything there recently? They give you a reason for the ban?

Somebody posted a link to my review, I offered to answer their questions same as I did on Evil's site, Ve3d, and a few others.  Didn't engage in any flaming or the like, they just don't like the independent voice.

Edit:
http://forums.gamespot.com/gamespot/show_messages.php?board=314159268&topic=20367023&message=218187181#M218187181

There ya go, follow the asshat.


I think I felt my IQ drop 10 points just from checking out that GameSpot thread. Thanks, chief! biggrin

BTW - why not try and reign this puppy back in guys, and talk about the game Jade Empire, not whether GameSpot/CG/IGN/Whatever liked or disliked it? The game should be in everyones hands starting tomorrow, so please throw more Q and less A towards those who have played it. smile
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« Reply #88 on: April 12, 2005, 06:00:33 AM »

Well my EB insists its still not till Wednesday. Have I mentioned I hate them?

Anwyays, I read that thread too, and the sheer idiocy simply floored me. We are  SO lucky to have this group of gamers here.

As for JE, well I am thinking about starting another thread to talk about what styles/character model/names people are planning! smile
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« Reply #89 on: April 12, 2005, 06:25:06 AM »

Yes, names....I need to think of a badass name...
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« Reply #90 on: April 12, 2005, 06:26:44 AM »

1UP has posted their review: 8.5

http://www.1up.com/do/reviewPage?cId=3139565&did=1
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« Reply #91 on: April 12, 2005, 01:25:00 PM »

Quote from: "Kevin Grey"


This criticism concerns me more than any other:

Quote
Less free-roaming and more tightly scripted than KOTOR (there is nothing, naturally, in the Empire that would encourage planet-hopping around the galaxy as in KOTOR), Jade Empire leads you on a tightly controlled path peppered with "optional" quests.


One of my main complaints about KOTOR was that the game was too linear. If this review is accurate, it looks like Jade Empire is worse than KOTOR in that regard.
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« Reply #92 on: April 12, 2005, 01:42:22 PM »

I'll let you guys be the judge.  I didn't find it to be 'abbreviated' or 'not Bioware's finest hour' or any crap like that.  People need to realize two things:

1.) This isn't Baldurs Gate II so stop expecting 90 hours of gameplay.  It is roughly 25 hours, more than an average action/adventure...which is what this game is.

2.) This isn't Tekken, so don't expect 50 moves per martial art.  Does anyone yell about Sam Fisher only being able to do a handfull of moves to incapacitate somebody? No...because its an action/adventure title.  

Meh.
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« Reply #93 on: April 12, 2005, 01:53:06 PM »

My Jade Empire preorder has been in "processing" for 4 days. Come on gamestop. Get on with the shipping...
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dandylife
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« Reply #94 on: April 12, 2005, 03:11:40 PM »

Quote from: "Knightshade Dragon"
I'll let you guys be the judge.  I didn't find it to be 'abbreviated' or 'not Bioware's finest hour' or any crap like that.  People need to realize two things:

1.) This isn't Baldurs Gate II so stop expecting 90 hours of gameplay.  It is roughly 25 hours, more than an average action/adventure...which is what this game is.

2.) This isn't Tekken, so don't expect 50 moves per martial art.  Does anyone yell about Sam Fisher only being able to do a handfull of moves to incapacitate somebody? No...because its an action/adventure title.  

Meh.


KD, what can you tell us about the linearity of the game?

This whole fiasco is starting to bring back memories of the Deus Ex/ Deus Ex 2 conflict 2 years ago...is Jade Empire really just a streamlined cousin of the KotoR framework?  Is this a good thing?

grammer Edit
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« Reply #95 on: April 12, 2005, 05:01:13 PM »

Quote from: "dandylife"
 This whole fiasco is starting to bring back memories of the Deus Ex/ Deus Ex 2 conflict 2 years ago...


Other then the small fact that this isn't a sequel (to anything), and that isn't a PC title gone console, that's definitely a really well thought out comparison :roll:
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« Reply #96 on: April 12, 2005, 05:05:49 PM »

The game is linear to a degree but there are options.  Right now I am facing a few different options for accomplishing a mission.  One side wants me to do this thing (trying to be spoiler free) and I was approached by another person who is trying to bribe me to sabotage the mission.  A third faction is trying to have me accomplish the mission but with a different reason.  Granted, I'll be going to the same place but the outcome will be different.  On the way to this place I also have a 'left or right path' option that has different outcomes.  

Honestly...was Baldur's Gate II any less great?  It was VERY linear...
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« Reply #97 on: April 12, 2005, 05:11:00 PM »

I paid for my pre-order last night, even picked up the guide.  Ron's review was pretty much what sold me.  I think IGN has a definite habit of inflating their scores and declaring every major title that comes down the road "the best game ever! ".  Frankly I'm really sick and tired of hearing that.  Over on the opposite end of the spectrum we have GameSpot, who's reviews are honest and direct, but too nitpicky.  Their reviewers always spend way too much time talking about how this game mechanic isn't like some other game, or how this design decision should have been done different, etc.  This is evident in Greg's review as he bashes Jade Empire for not having a combat system more like Tekken or Virtua Fighter.  To me that's completely idiotic; I don't buy BioWare for deep and engrossing fighting games, I buy Namco and Sega.  I buy BioWare for a deep and engrossing RPG, which is what I think Jade Empire is.  I agree with Ron in that I think GameSpot is way too critical and doesn't spend enough time talking about the single most important thing that should be considered:  whether the game is fun, or not.

Glycerine
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« Reply #98 on: April 12, 2005, 05:14:14 PM »

Quote from: "Glycerine"
I think GameSpot is way too critical and doesn't talk about the single most important thing that should be considered:  whether the game is fun, or not.

Yeah, I agree here.  I think a lot of sites with their longer reviews tend to talk about technical merits and not how fun the game is to play.  I know I try to say how fun the game is while also pointing out technical merits when I do my reviews, but I don't always succeed I'm sure.

BTW...anyone here from EB/Gamestop yet as to if they're getting their copy today or not?  I'll check my voice messages later.
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« Reply #99 on: April 12, 2005, 06:01:03 PM »

Quote from: "AgtFox"
[BTW...anyone here from EB/Gamestop yet as to if they're getting their copy today or not?  I'll check my voice messages later.

My EB is one of those stores that drives down to the main distrubuition site (or is the main one) for my area, and as of Monday, they told me Wednesday.

Oh, and BTW - I've taken Wednesday through Saturday off for this game. biggrin
First time I've done that in a while.
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« Reply #100 on: April 12, 2005, 06:57:21 PM »

By ebgames called, they'll have it around 6. I cant wait. its going to be a long 4 hours.
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« Reply #101 on: April 12, 2005, 07:27:09 PM »

Quote from: "jersoc"
By ebgames called, they'll have it around 6. I cant wait. its going to be a long 4 hours.


Ditto.  smile
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« Reply #102 on: April 12, 2005, 07:47:28 PM »

Quote from: "Booner"
Quote from: "jersoc"
By ebgames called, they'll have it around 6. I cant wait. its going to be a long 4 hours.


Ditto.  smile


So how long until it is available as a torrent?  :lol:

Sorry...
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« Reply #103 on: April 12, 2005, 08:02:37 PM »

Quote from: "Booner"
Quote from: "jersoc"
By ebgames called, they'll have it around 6. I cant wait. its going to be a long 4 hours.

Ditto.  smile

Woohoo!

I'll be working until early evening, so that time doesn't bother me at all.

Now to call my EB and make sure they're doing it too... biggrin
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« Reply #104 on: April 12, 2005, 08:19:32 PM »

EB called and said that it'll be in at 5.  This evening after I put the kids to bed I'm cracking open the Jalapeno Krunchers and Lime Coke and playing JE till I can't stay awake any more.  I'm taking tomorrow off to sleep and then play some more.  It's been years since I've done that for any game.
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« Reply #105 on: April 12, 2005, 08:45:42 PM »

You rogues - I have to wait till tomorrow.
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« Reply #106 on: April 12, 2005, 08:50:48 PM »

Yeah, they called me and told me it would be in "later".
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« Reply #107 on: April 12, 2005, 08:52:27 PM »

Try as I might, I just can't get excited about this game.  

Bioware hit it's zenith with Baldurs Gate 2. Neverwinter Nights started the downward trend and now it's hit rock bottom in my eyes with Jade Empire. It sounds more like an action game than an RPG.  It took an already way too linear "RPG" (KoTR) and made it even more linear and more action/adventure. Just like the Ultima series, Bioware is making things wrose trying to appeal to a new audience. frown

Where o where did the old Bioware go???
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« Reply #108 on: April 12, 2005, 09:00:20 PM »

Personally I wish Bioware would do both aspects of the genre, I am getting Jade Empire and think I will love it, but I also loved Baldur's Gate 1/2.  Both can coexist.
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« Reply #109 on: April 12, 2005, 09:04:05 PM »

Quote from: "Arkon"
Personally I wish Bioware would do both aspects of the genre, I am getting Jade Empire and think I will love it, but I also loved Baldur's Gate 1/2.  Both can coexist.


I wish they would as well, but they seem to be hell bent on getting as far away from the Baldurs Gate style of true RPG as they can...
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« Reply #110 on: April 12, 2005, 09:06:59 PM »

Quote from: "Hetz"
Quote from: "Arkon"
Personally I wish Bioware would do both aspects of the genre, I am getting Jade Empire and think I will love it, but I also loved Baldur's Gate 1/2.  Both can coexist.


I wish they would as well, but they seem to be hell bent on getting as far away from the Baldurs Gate style of true RPG as they can...


What's the low-down on Dragon Age? I was under the impession that it was going back toward their deep-rpg gameplay roots, but with a really nice looking engine.
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« Reply #111 on: April 12, 2005, 09:12:59 PM »

Quote from: "Hetz"
Quote from: "Arkon"
Personally I wish Bioware would do both aspects of the genre, I am getting Jade Empire and think I will love it, but I also loved Baldur's Gate 1/2.  Both can coexist.


I wish they would as well, but they seem to be hell bent on getting as far away from the Baldurs Gate style of true RPG as they can...


To some extent I can understand- how many of those who purchased BG2 do you think ever saw any content outside of Chapters 2 & 3 (and even all of the content in those first chapters)?  Or became frustrated at the fairly tough mage battles with their spells and counter-spells that were a fundamental facet of the game right from the start?  

Its got to be frustrating to developers to put so much work into the final levels of a game that most people will never see.  From that standpoint I can understand the appeal of making a shorter, streamlined game that's intended to draw you continuously forward and hopefully make it to the end.  

Jade Empire is a huge risk for the company so I think making the game more streamlined  is a wise move on their part.
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« Reply #112 on: April 12, 2005, 09:22:26 PM »

Quote from: "Hetz"

Where o where did the old Bioware go???

Ummm, I assume they are working on Dragon Age?

Really folks, keep your PC RPG fantasies off my console.  Morrowind was enough to prove to me that a traditional PC RPG just doesn't cut it on the XBox.
Instead of complaining that a console RPG has been released that isn't expansive and is action oriented, revel in the fact that Bioware has given you another Console RPG where you have control over your actions and can actually affect the storyline of the game.
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« Reply #113 on: April 12, 2005, 09:31:52 PM »

Wow, after reading through this thread, I didn't realize reviews was such a tough business.  :?

KD's review really sold me on this game. I think he is pretty clear where this game's strengths are and what not to expect.

I think it's pretty funny how spoiled gamers and developers have become. We expect the end all be all game for everyone for almost every title.

I remember when I was LUCKY in the old days to get ONE game a year that was really awesome. ONE A YEAR.  :shock:

Now I expect to get at least 5 to 6 awesome games a year. The funny thing is the developers are putting out great games. Some aren't for me, some are. We are really lucky we get this much quality and attention these days. I know we pay for it but still, we are lucky.
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« Reply #114 on: April 12, 2005, 11:24:45 PM »

Quote from: "TheMissingLink"
Yes, names....I need to think of a badass name...


You want a badass name?  Just type in "Stiffler" and give it a whirl.  You'll kick so much ass you'll be begging your brother to delete the saves before you can enter the room again.  Frightening stuff, but that name has recently dragged me through the likes of Castlevania: Harmony of Dissonance on the GBA and with a little Second Sight on the side.  And that's just in the last week!

Recently infused with whips, chains, and psychic powers, I think kung-fu mastery should be no problem for this humble avatar.  Approach with caution, as the power you wield will certainly be frightful at first.  But you should soon feel your own power grow as you come to terms with your new-found power over life and death.

Seriously, I'm going to kick like three dozen pagodas full of ass and then sign my name on that demon lord's ass with a Sharpie.

Do you dare take the challenge?
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« Reply #115 on: April 12, 2005, 11:27:44 PM »

Okay then, it is decided!  My female character will be named Stiffler!  Thanks for the help, Stiffler!

*insert PWNED11!11! picture*

No, seriously, anyone got an original name that they're gonna use thought up yet?  I know, incredibly dorky, but hey, gotta start now or else you'll freeze when the time arrives!
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« Reply #116 on: April 12, 2005, 11:59:40 PM »

OK, I got Jade Empire in my grubby hands and just started a game. I have a question for KD or anyone else.

Should I go evil or good?

In the KOTOR games I always went good and unfortunately, its my first impluse to be good and nice.

I want to be evil but its so friggin hard to be a smart ass. I have only played a few minutes and already pissed off two students.

Am I hurting my character be answering with the rude, smart ass answers?
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« Reply #117 on: April 13, 2005, 12:44:20 AM »

Some Names:

Hung Long
Sho Nuff
Ped Xing
Egg Shen
Lo Pan
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Mike Dunn
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Arkon
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« Reply #118 on: April 13, 2005, 01:30:05 AM »

Well, got an hour in and I love it... although the wife made me stop to watch House.  What character is everyone using?  I am using the bonus character as I wanted to go magic and wanted to try first as a male character.  That said I am curious as to the other characters, for exammple transformation, what style character best makes use of it?
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Devil
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« Reply #119 on: April 13, 2005, 02:12:34 AM »

I'm an hour in too. Pretty good so far.

'Kicker of Asses' might actually finish this game!  smile
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