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Author Topic: Suikoden 4 ... seeing screenshots, thinking :  (Read 4849 times)
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« on: December 08, 2004, 05:29:16 PM »

Crap.

Not because the screenshots look bad, but that Knightshade liked the previous one, so this game *must* be bad. slywink

Any chance of you guys getting a preview copy to hash over, KD? smile
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« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2004, 05:46:40 PM »

I'm working on that. smile
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« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2004, 07:32:29 PM »

Man I hope the rumors about it are wrong.  3 was such a great game.

s
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« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2004, 07:42:44 PM »

Purge, OPM had a Suikoden IV demo in last month's issue. If you haven't played it, give it a whirl. The demo is not impressive at all.
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« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2004, 07:45:38 PM »

Just FYI, the Japanese version is getting panned.
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« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2004, 01:52:36 AM »

Quote from: "Sepiche"
Man I hope the rumors about it are wrong.  3 was such a great game.

s



Yeah, when a previous game is so great tho, we want and expect the same with better graphics and story and bells and whistles and that isn't usually what we get.  :lol: I don't see how it can't be great if they kept the same style of game. It was the style and gameplay that made it good, that is the hardest thing to break, pretty much have to do it on purpose by like turning the turnbased combat into realtime? FFX-2 anybuddy?  :lol:
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« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2004, 10:39:25 AM »

From what I've read, 4 pretty much disregards the changes to 3 and returns more to the style of the first two games.  I really disliked the "team" concept in 3's battles, so hopefully, this is a good thing.  Hopefully, we'll get some better impressions of the game as the US release draws near.

And, since it is my duty to defend FFX-2 wherever it is attacked slywink I have to say that the FFX battle system was good, but FFX-2's battle system is the best the series has seen.
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« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2004, 04:47:35 PM »

Quote from: "Andrew Mallon"
Purge, OPM had a Suikoden IV demo in last month's issue. If you haven't played it, give it a whirl. The demo is not impressive at all.



Do I feel like losing savegames and getting a free game from sony....  :?  :twisted: heh. heh. heh.
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« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2004, 08:43:57 PM »

Quote from: "EddieA"
And, since it is my duty to defend FFX-2 wherever it is attacked slywink I have to say that the FFX battle system was good, but FFX-2's battle system is the best the series has seen.



It is not a matter of defending the game or not, it is just a matter of whether you prefer realtime combat or turn based. Obviously you like real time.  I will always prefer turnbased.  But, from this perspective, if FF-X is turnbased, wouldn't you expect FFX-2 would be as well? FFX-2 was a dismal failure as well. It is the red headed stepchild of the series and didn't sell anywhere near the copies of FFX I am sure, not to mention it doesn't have the same reputation because it wasn't anywhere near as good. Just the combat changes aren't what made it worse, but in my opinion it was one of the things. But, my point is, when you have something good, why make big sweeping changes like that in the first place?
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« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2004, 10:13:33 PM »

Hehehe Purge - I cant remember who said it but they said it best... "Athens 2004 for my 80 hour FFX save?"  Course if ya know in advance Im sure youd just save like the first 5 minutes of like, "easy pool 23" or some such inane thing
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« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2004, 10:17:45 PM »

FYI, I know you guys are joking around, but for clarity's sake: it is the Viewtiful Joe demo on the Playstation Undergound demo disk that will reformat a memory card. I'm not aware of any similar problems with any OPM demo disk, including the one with the Suikoden IV demo.
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« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2004, 01:34:12 AM »

Whoa, there vagabond.  FFX-2 didn't fail beacuse of a real-time.  Not even close.  It failed because everyone of the characters was an annoyance.  It had J-pop.  It featured all the crap from Japanese society that no one in the western hemisphere older than 13 would like.
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« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2004, 02:16:44 AM »

"It featured all the crap from Japanese society that no one in the western hemisphere older than 13 would like."
I'm way over 13 and I like it.  I've always liked cheesy things, though slywink

"It is not a matter of defending the game or not, it is just a matter of whether you prefer realtime combat or turn based. Obviously you like real time"
Actually, I prefer turn-based, but either is fine by me.  What I liked about the battle system was the variety.  I liked FFX's battle system, but even it fell prey to the "kill the same monsters in the same way over and over again" syndrom that most console RPGs do.  In FFX-2, you can play this way, but there are so many skills and different types of attacks, all of which can be effective against different enemies.  You can fight the same group of enemies many different ways.  I've played so many RPG battles in my life, variety in combat (even if the game is easy enough that you don't have change your tactics) is a big plus for me.  I can certainly see why many people didn't like it, but I still think FFX-2 is a solid game, even with the overly cheesy trappings.
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« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2004, 02:46:28 AM »

FWIW, FFX-2 was by no means a failure financially.  It sold well over 2 million copies in Japan and over a million in the US.  For a game produced with an existing engine and art assets it was a great return on investment for Square.  

I think they were testing the waters with FFX-2 and believe we will see a FFVII-2 on PS3 (especially with the build up all of the "compilation of FF7" titles are bringing).
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« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2004, 04:23:32 AM »

Quote from: "Kevin Grey"
FWIW, FFX-2 was by no means a failure financially.  It sold well over 2 million copies in Japan and over a million in the US.  For a game produced with an existing engine and art assets it was a great return on investment for Square.



Yeah, but how many of those were people who just bought it because it was FFX-2 and then were disappointed by the game? I would say a huge majority of them, considering the how far apart the two games are in people's reviews. Sure you can sell the same game over again and make some money but they will pay a heavy price for it.  Many will probably wait and see with FF-12 that would have run out and bought it before. It's hard to sink such a huge ship as FF, but they certainly put a torpedo into it with that game.
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« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2004, 04:33:24 AM »

Quote from: "Big Jake"
Whoa, there vagabond.  FFX-2 didn't fail beacuse of a real-time.  Not even close.  It failed because everyone of the characters was an annoyance.  It had J-pop.  It featured all the crap from Japanese society that no one in the western hemisphere older than 13 would like.


If you read what I said carefully, I said the combat wasn't what made it worse but just one of the things.
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« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2004, 04:45:57 AM »

Quote from: "vagabond"



Yeah, but how many of those were people who just bought it because it was FFX-2 and then were disappointed by the game? I would say a huge majority of them, considering the how far apart the two games are in people's reviews. Sure you can sell the same game over again and make some money but they will pay a heavy price for it.  Many will probably wait and see with FF-12 that would have run out and bought it before. It's hard to sink such a huge ship as FF, but they certainly put a torpedo into it with that game.


I don't think FFX-2 damaged the franchise at all- certainly no more than FF8 which had a worse reaction IMO.  Yet despite FF8 disappointing many, FFX was able to outsell all FF's except for  the seminal FF7 and FFX's sales compare well to that title.  I think it was pretty clear that FFX-2 was a side project and I still expect plenty of interest in FF12.  If anything is going to hurt FF12 it will be the changes made to some of the series' core gameplay.  


All of the FF's get strongly varied reactions with each title having its fair share of supporters and detractors.  Yet I think that's the series' strength- gamers understand that each title is going to be different and just because they may not have enjoyed a previous entry doesn't mean that an upcoming title won't have plenty to offer.

Hell I know a lot of people who are interested in FF12 not because its a main series title but because its coming from the designer behind FF Tactics and Vagrant Story.  

Reaction is also very much tied into different cultures.  FFX-2 was clearly more focused on a Japanese audience and I don't believe that reaction was nearly as poor there as it was for most here.
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« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2004, 10:24:28 AM »

Quote from: "Kevin Grey"
Reaction is also very much tied into different cultures.  FFX-2 was clearly more focused on a Japanese audience and I don't believe that reaction was nearly as poor there as it was for most here.


Fair enough, but why then just make a straight port into English? Why not change the game for the american market? Disgaea was made by a Japanese company but it is quite obvious that Americans wrote the thing. Because the humor has things that are based on the American culture. This makes the game MUCH better than if it would have just been written in Japanese and just translated. This usually turns out poorly. I thought FF-X was awesome. But, the final fantasy gamestyle is one of my least favorite. They change the games but they don't change the gamestyle. In FFX-2 they took out the interesting character leveling, the diverse weapons, the turn based combat and the characters themselves. They kept the incessant looking around for crap, having to do 20 steps to open a door, yada, yada, ad nauseum. That is the crap they need to take out. That is why FF-X is the only one that I actually finished. Because it was the only one with a storyline strong enough to keep me pressing forward through all the boring and frustrating parts.  I think FFX-2 was far worse than 8 because they called it X-2 but it didn't really have anything to do with X.  Yuna in X-2 has the same voice, she looks similar but that's it. She is not the same character. Neither is Rikku.  When you crush people's expectations, it has to hurt your business in the long run.
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« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2004, 11:33:26 AM »

Square was still hurting for cash after the Spirits Within disaster, so I would imagine they wanted to put as little effort into FFX-2 as possible, which would probably explain the direct translation.  Also, I know a lot of people were disappointed with the direction the game took, but overall, I think a lot more people like the game than dislike it.  The professional reviews ranged from good to great, and it has a 8.9 reader score at IGN and 8.0 at Gamerankings.
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« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2004, 02:30:12 PM »

Quote from: "vagabond"
Fair enough, but why then just make a straight port into English? Why not change the game for the american market?


As Eddie, noted, Square needed cash.  Its not a translation issue- most of the chief complaints about X2-the J-Pop songs, costume changes- are intrinsic to the game system and would have required a pretty radical and expensive overhaul to change.  Reviews have generally been very good and Square was able to get an additonal million plus copies sold while only springing for the translation and voice-acting.  Its hard to view it as anything but a win for them.
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« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2004, 10:54:30 PM »

Quote from: "EddieA"
Square was still hurting for cash after the Spirits Within disaster, so I would imagine they wanted to put as little effort into FFX-2 as possible, which would probably explain the direct translation.  Also, I know a lot of people were disappointed with the direction the game took, but overall, I think a lot more people like the game than dislike it.  The professional reviews ranged from good to great, and it has a 8.9 reader score at IGN and 8.0 at Gamerankings.


It wasn't a terrible game by any means, and I never said it was. It just wasn't anywhere near as good as FFX. I also feel it was a bit deceptive selling it as a sequel to that game when it didn't have much of anything to do with it except using the exact same world and graphics which is cheap too. These online rankings aren't very accurate, they never give a game a 1, very rarely to never give one less than a 5 or 6. An 8 is on the bad side. They also tend to rank games from big companies overly high because they want to keep getting free review copies. I thought the game was about a 6. I didn't bother to finish it.
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« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2004, 10:57:54 PM »

Quote from: "Kevin Grey"
Quote from: "vagabond"
Fair enough, but why then just make a straight port into English? Why not change the game for the american market?


As Eddie, noted, Square needed cash.  Its not a translation issue- most of the chief complaints about X2-the J-Pop songs, costume changes- are intrinsic to the game system and would have required a pretty radical and expensive overhaul to change.  Reviews have generally been very good and Square was able to get an additonal million plus copies sold while only springing for the translation and voice-acting.  Its hard to view it as anything but a win for them.


Nothing but a win if all you care about is how much money you made vs how much you spent. If you care about integrity however, I would say it was a total loss in that department.  Most of those sales were people who bought the game just because it was related unfairly and deceitfully to the greatest game of all time. They could have called the same game FF whatever and they would have had a small percentage of those sales based on the quality of the game alone.
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« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2004, 11:42:23 PM »

Care to cite some statistics for:

Quote
Most of those sales were people who bought the game just because it was related unfairly and deceitfully to the greatest game of all time.


How was it deceitful?  Square was very upfront about the change in tone and gameplay in FFX-2 and it was prominently highlighted in nearly every preview.

Quote
Nothing but a win if all you care about is how much money you made vs how much you spent.


First- Square is a business.  Why would they sit on a fully completed Final Fantasy game when there are markets where it is guaranteed to turn a huge profit for them?  They made a game on a considerably smaller budget than FFX and were still able to sell more than 3 million copies worldwide (a figure most companies would kill to have).  

As to the conception of the game- again it was much more suited to the Japanese market where it was received better than the US.  While the reuse of the engine and some art was certainly motivated by a desire to make these hideously expensive games more cost effective I have no doubt the actual creators of the game were fully onboard with the design and genuinely excited that since the game was an offshoot they could try something different and unique with the Final Fantasy formula.

A purely cynical business decision would have cranked out a FFX-2 with identical gameplay and tone to the first game (and it could be argued that the recent KOTOR 2 was just such a move).  I admire the chance that Square took with FFX-2 even if it didn't connect with gamers as much as previous entries.  And again, despite what you think, the game was generally well liked.
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« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2004, 07:25:55 AM »

How was it deceitful? Square was very upfront about the change in tone and gameplay in FFX-2 and it was prominently highlighted in nearly every preview. <<<<

I already explained why it was deceitful. The game didn't have anything to do with FFX, so they didn't have any business calling it X-2. They just wanted to use most of the crap from the last game, slapped some halfass plot on it and call it another game. There was just barely enough added to even call it a different game. The entire gameworld was exactly the same. You apparently don't have the capability to understand this so there is no point in trying to educate you. I wonder at your motivations for defending them.
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« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2004, 07:41:21 AM »

A purely cynical business decision would have cranked out a FFX-2 with identical gameplay and tone to the first game (and it could be argued that the recent KOTOR 2 was just such a move).<<<<


That is exactly what people expect when they get a SEQUEL. What would you say if they made a movie sequel that didn't have the same characters in it, nor did the plot have anything to do with the last one? It's wouldn't be a SEQUEL now then would it? Which is exactly my point. They could have called it something else but then they wouldn't have been able to decieve people into thinking it was more FFX, which it is not. Then they would have to actually spend a little money to make another world and actually create something in order to make money! Oh the horror!
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« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2004, 08:39:52 AM »

How is it not a sequel?  All of the characters (except the ones who are gone in one way or another) reappear and it takes place in the same world.  As for the plot, the whole Sin/Zanarkand plot was wrapped up in FFX; there was nothing to continue.  It's not like the plot comes out of nowhere, though.  It has a basis in the background of Spira shown in FFX, and having new factions spring up after the revelations about Yevon makes sense.  Yes, there was a drastic change in the tone and battle system, but those were only elements of the first game, not the whole of it.

Also, Square made no attempt to deceive anyone.  You'd have to have avoided even a cursory look at the game to not know about the lighter tone or real-time battles.  From the beginning (the first image of the game was Yuna in short shorts with a gun in each hand), the game was marketed as a continuation of the characters and world of FFX, not necessarily the gameplay.
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« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2004, 01:31:26 PM »

Quote
What would you say if they made a movie sequel that didn't have the same characters in it, nor did the plot have anything to do with the last one? It's wouldn't be a SEQUEL now then would it?


Again, as Eddie noted, that isn't the case with FFX-2 it uses the same characters and is directly related to the previous game.

Now if you were to say what about a movie sequel that had a different focus and tone than the original, which is much closer to what we're dealing with in FFX and X-2, then I would simply point to Alien and Aliens.
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« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2004, 06:23:39 PM »

Quote from: "Kevin Grey"
Quote
What would you say if they made a movie sequel that didn't have the same characters in it, nor did the plot have anything to do with the last one? It's wouldn't be a SEQUEL now then would it?


Again, as Eddie noted, that isn't the case with FFX-2 it uses the same characters and is directly related to the previous game.

Now if you were to say what about a movie sequel that had a different focus and tone than the original, which is much closer to what we're dealing with in FFX and X-2, then I would simply point to Alien and Aliens.



I have already said the characters in FFX-2 are NOT the same 3 times. You call her "Yuna" if you want to but that girl isn't the same one from the first game.  All the old characters they throw in for 2 seconds just so they could say they were in there. They play no part in the game. Aliens is a good example, however there is one character that survived from the first and unlike FFX-2 she is consistant. Couldn't have anybody else they were all dead. They also didn't change the entire style of the movie. They didn't make Aliens, having the aliens eat a bunch of teenagers on dates at an amusement park the whole time, that would have sucked. Also unlike FFX-2, Aliens is a far better movie than it's predesessor.
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« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2004, 06:35:48 PM »

Will someone please tell me what these FFX-2 posts have to do with Suikoden 4?

Honestly guys, you should probably start a new thread if you want to talk about FFX/FFX-2.
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« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2004, 06:37:15 PM »

Quote
Aliens is a far better movie than it's predesessor.


And the sun rises in the west.  :wink:

Oh, and vagabond, I see yu did say that combat was only 1 of the problems.  Sorry for the misread.
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« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2004, 08:24:43 PM »

Quote from: "Graham"
Will someone please tell me what these FFX-2 posts have to do with Suikoden 4?

Honestly guys, you should probably start a new thread if you want to talk about FFX/FFX-2.


Because I mentioned FFX-2 in context as a joke and the defenders of square for some vague reason felt obligated to fire up their lightsabers to defend it.  :lol:

Rather hard to talk about a game that still isn't coming out for a month too.  :lol:
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« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2004, 08:31:54 PM »

Quote from: "Big Jake"
Quote
Aliens is a far better movie than it's predesessor.


And the sun rises in the west.  :wink:

Oh, and vagabond, I see yu did say that combat was only 1 of the problems.  Sorry for the misread.


It does?   :wink:

No Prob, it happens.
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« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2004, 09:42:05 PM »

"Because I mentioned FFX-2 in context as a joke and the defenders of square for some vague reason felt obligated to fire up their lightsabers to defend it."
We don't have lightsabers.  We have swords that are 3 times as big as were are slywink
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« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2004, 06:59:23 AM »

Quote from: "EddieA"
We don't have lightsabers.  We have swords that are 3 times as big as were are slywink


...and can wield the 140lb sword as long as you are tall, and still be able (with one hand) to effectively use the trigger... sheesh. slywink
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« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2004, 11:53:23 PM »

There's a reader review for Suikoden 4 up at GameFAQs.  Beware, though, that there is a spoiler for Suikoden 3 in the review.
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« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2004, 02:50:43 AM »

Quote from: "EddieA"
There's a reader review for Suikoden 4 up at GameFAQs.  Beware, though, that there is a spoiler for Suikoden 3 in the review.


Some people should definately not write reviews. The guy only gives it a 6, seems like he didn't like it very much but didn't give any solid reasons why not.  I don't really care what number they give the game nor whether they liked it or disliked it, I am only interested in the reasons, because they may hate something I personally might like or not mind at all. This review is completely and utterly worthless as a basis for anything.  His suggestion that we should go get Suikoden 1&2 is absurd. I thought Suikoden 3 was great, but I have no interest in playing 1 or 2 because they are old and wouldn't be appealing to me for that reason alone.
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« Reply #36 on: December 13, 2004, 03:34:36 AM »

Quote from: "vagabond"
 I thought Suikoden 3 was great, but I have no interest in playing 1 or 2 because they are old and wouldn't be appealing to me for that reason alone.


But you are playing and enjoying Growlanser that is effectively no more advanced tech-wise than Suikoden 1 & 2?
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« Reply #37 on: December 13, 2004, 06:23:40 AM »

Quote from: "Kevin Grey"
Quote from: "vagabond"
 I thought Suikoden 3 was great, but I have no interest in playing 1 or 2 because they are old and wouldn't be appealing to me for that reason alone.


But you are playing and enjoying Growlanser that is effectively no more advanced tech-wise than Suikoden 1 & 2?


I don't know that for certain. They seem fairly recent to me. I know they have been out in Japan for awhile. My point was that preferring the older version over a newer version isn't mainstream. It's nostalgia and it doesn't have anything to do with people who haven't been playing console games for 10 years. I have only been playing them for less than 3. At the very least it makes his opinion suspect. I am trying to come up with a comparison but the only thing I can come up with is people who prefer an old style of car. It's very relevent to others who also prefer that car and they can hang out together and talk and it's great. However, it is completely irrelevant to anybody else. Somebody in that position telling me I should prefer that car over a new one is meaningless. It's pure bias.
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Kevin Grey
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« Reply #38 on: December 13, 2004, 06:37:45 AM »

Growlanser II and III could be replicated on PS1 with no loss other than the high-res character art when the characters are speaking.  The 2D backgrounds and character sprites are well within the PS1's capabilities and, in fact, were exceeded by many PS1 games.  

Some series show evolutionary progress such that each iteration effectively makes the previous obsolete.  Other series can have pretty radical changes between each chapter.  Suikoden is the latter with Suikoden's II, III, and IV all featuring very different gameplay, stories, and combat systems.  I thought Suikoden III was a great game but Part II is widely considered to be far superior even discounting nostagia.  You'll miss the 3D graphics of Suikoden III but part II has very nice 2D graphics on par with what you are playing right now in Growlanser.  Suikoden II is held in such high esteem that copies of the game routinely sell for upwards of $100 on Ebay.

If you just started RPGs this generation you are missing a veritable goldmine of greats from the Playstation era that still haven't been surpassed with the RPGs of this generation.  If you don't have an issue with the graphics in Growlanser then you probably will be just fine with the vast majority of PS1-era RPGs.
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vagabond
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« Reply #39 on: December 13, 2004, 11:15:41 AM »

Quote from: "Kevin Grey"
Growlanser II and III could be replicated on PS1 with no loss other than the high-res character art when the characters are speaking.  The 2D backgrounds and character sprites are well within the PS1's capabilities and, in fact, were exceeded by many PS1 games.  

Some series show evolutionary progress such that each iteration effectively makes the previous obsolete.  Other series can have pretty radical changes between each chapter.  Suikoden is the latter with Suikoden's II, III, and IV all featuring very different gameplay, stories, and combat systems.  I thought Suikoden III was a great game but Part II is widely considered to be far superior even discounting nostagia.  You'll miss the 3D graphics of Suikoden III but part II has very nice 2D graphics on par with what you are playing right now in Growlanser.  Suikoden II is held in such high esteem that copies of the game routinely sell for upwards of $100 on Ebay.

If you just started RPGs this generation you are missing a veritable goldmine of greats from the Playstation era that still haven't been surpassed with the RPGs of this generation.  If you don't have an issue with the graphics in Growlanser then you probably will be just fine with the vast majority of PS1-era RPGs.


Well if it sells for 100 bucks that is a good enough reason for me not to try it anyway.  :lol: I never owned a PS1, but I did play a decent amount of FF7 and Growlancer is far superior to that in graphics and everything else in my opinion.  Like I said I think those who played PS1 games, have a overly lofty opinion of games for nostalgia reasons for want of a better word. I also tried Chrono cross, Vagrant story and several others and thought they all were bad. But, I could see how the game would have been good when it was new. It's like looking at a beat up car and being able to imagine what it was like new. I can drive an old car but if the car doesn't have any meaning for me it's just a car. Doesn't get me there any better than any other car.  There are rather current games that have meagre graphics, I am more interested in gameplay. Fire emblem, Final fantasy tactics advance anything for the gameboy I guess. They are recent games but their allure is not the graphics. The graphics aren't just what I am talking about although that is one part of it. It's a totally different game, gamestyle. There are tons of good computer roleplaying games I loved at the time I played them, but would hate if I played them again or for the first time for that matter. The expectations are different. Also when I was playing computer roleplaying games, there weren't 200 channels on the tv and high speed internet and the many other things vying for my time. I saw that FF 1&2 bundle and I might play those on a gameboy if the situation arose. But, I would not bother playing them on my cube emulator. The experience would be different and not entertaining I don't believe. That is what I am talking about if I have explained well enough for it to be understood.
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