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Author Topic: Spore Developer: "Wii is a piece of sh*t"  (Read 2511 times)
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JCC
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« on: March 08, 2007, 01:25:00 AM »

OUCH!

Hey, I didn't know it had 2 gamecubes in it! Wicked.
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« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2007, 01:35:34 AM »

Sounds like a crybaby to me.

How many Wii units sold in 4 months? He's obviously out of touch with what the people want.   thumbsdown
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« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2007, 01:39:03 AM »

Guy sounds like a real professional.   Roll Eyes

Not sure why Nintendo has to make games as an art form.  It's not their bag, baby.  They just want to make fun, family games and make some money.
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« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2007, 01:39:29 AM »

Quote from: ATB on March 08, 2007, 01:35:34 AM

Sounds like a crybaby to me.

How many Wii units sold in 4 months? He's obviously out of touch with what the people want.   thumbsdown

Doesn't even seem to have a stance...sounds like he his jumping on the bandwagon with what everyone else who dislikes the Wii has already said.  Oh well...
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« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2007, 01:42:27 AM »

It doesn't sound like any of that to me, I am not sure where you guys are reading it as crybabies and all that-he is saying that for the type of games the company he is a part of wants to make, the Wii is woefully insufficient, and is comparing it to two gamecubes strapped together. Yeah, he is being a bit of a jerk about it, but he is a dev, he is concerned with the bottom line, and he thinks the Wii is not at all suitable for the games they make. Ask someone from Epic or Bethesda or id how well the Wii would work for their games or the development goals and ideas they have. Its a very very very valid and good point from that perspective, although you can logically argue that it misses the "point" or the segment at which the Wii is aimed.
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« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2007, 01:52:33 AM »

From the article:

Quote
One speaker, Chris Hecker, currently working on Spore at Maxis, took the opportunity to call out Nintendo for not taken games seriously.

I'd like to take this opportunity to call out IGN for not taking writing seriously.
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« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2007, 02:10:48 AM »

Quote from: Calvin on March 08, 2007, 01:42:27 AM

It doesn't sound like any of that to me, I am not sure where you guys are reading it as crybabies and all that-he is saying that for the type of games the company he is a part of wants to make, the Wii is woefully insufficient, and is comparing it to two gamecubes strapped together. Yeah, he is being a bit of a jerk about it, but he is a dev, he is concerned with the bottom line, and he thinks the Wii is not at all suitable for the games they make. Ask someone from Epic or Bethesda or id how well the Wii would work for their games or the development goals and ideas they have. Its a very very very valid and good point from that perspective, although you can logically argue that it misses the "point" or the segment at which the Wii is aimed.

I don't disagree at all with what you said.  However, what I said was that he wasn't very professional.  He can have that opinion all he wants, but he doesn't have to be a dick about it at a Game Development Conference.
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« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2007, 02:23:21 AM »

'Burning Mad - Game Publishers Rant,' time was taken about half way through to allow developers a chance to spew their own rants."
The way I take it is that "rants" are not meant to be taken wholly seriously, but more as a chance to vent frustrations.  Taken in this context, I don't the comment is so bad.
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« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2007, 02:58:53 AM »

We have yet to see whether Spore will be a piece of sh*t or not.  Yeah, we know, you can create whatever goofy alien you want Robbin Williams to make fun of- big fun.

It's a poor craftsman who blames his tools.  Maybe this guy doesn't have any programming skill.
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« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2007, 03:03:02 AM »

Quote from: Calvin on March 08, 2007, 01:42:27 AM

It doesn't sound like any of that to me, I am not sure where you guys are reading it as crybabies and all that-he is saying that for the type of games the company he is a part of wants to make, the Wii is woefully insufficient, and is comparing it to two gamecubes strapped together. Yeah, he is being a bit of a jerk about it, but he is a dev, he is concerned with the bottom line, and he thinks the Wii is not at all suitable for the games they make. Ask someone from Epic or Bethesda or id how well the Wii would work for their games or the development goals and ideas they have. Its a very very very valid and good point from that perspective, although you can logically argue that it misses the "point" or the segment at which the Wii is aimed.

Well, Id came out a week or so ago and said they had interest in getting one of their engines running on the Wii for outsourcing it. They may never make a game themselves, but they do have an interest in making money.
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« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2007, 03:11:57 AM »

I just love this comment by him:
Quote
"It's not clear to me that Nintendo gives a shit about games as an art form,"


If he would have considered the age old adages of 'you lead by example' and 'you've got to walk the talk', he would realize that  Nintendo doesn't have to make references to games as art on their web site.

The fact is they've  been pushing -especially Miyamoto- the 'games as an art form' envelope for a very long time. Case in point; The Legend of Zelda Wind Waker. Nintendo got raked over the coals by their fans for wanting to take the game in a new animated art direction, they persevered and the results were brilliant.

I mean WTF does he think, the average gamer considers complex AI algorithms as art?? Plzzz, give me a freaking break!

Anyways... as others have said, it was just a rant session and we'd best just take it with a pound grain of salt.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2007, 03:16:37 AM by kronovan » Logged
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« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2007, 03:12:33 AM »

Quote from: The Grue on March 08, 2007, 02:10:48 AM

I don't disagree at all with what you said.  However, what I said was that he wasn't very professional.  He can have that opinion all he wants, but he doesn't have to be a dick about it at a Game Development Conference.

Actually it's a place especially for being a dick about stuff like that smile  Every year they do "rant" panels where you can present a talk and rant and rave about whatever you want.  I mean you have to submit a proposal and have it accepted first, but it's set up for that purpose.  I think last year Greg Costikyan gave a talk that made headlines because he was going off about the traditional developer/publisher relationship.  I think the quote was, "My friends, we are fucked.  We are well and truly fucked."
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« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2007, 03:30:03 AM »

The Nintendo Defense Force rallies to the cause !!!
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« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2007, 03:37:30 AM »

Seems to me that if there is one session at GDC you want to keep the media *out* of- it's the rant session 'cause otherwise this stuff just gets distorted out of context and I'm sure we'll be seeing this headline all over every aggregate site on the net.  And while that Spore developer might not care, I'm guessing that EA might might not be thrilled with these headlines....
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« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2007, 03:49:13 AM »

Quote from: denoginizer on March 08, 2007, 03:30:03 AM

The Nintendo Defense Force rallies to the cause !!!

Had he said the same thing about ANY platform, I would have made the same statement.

People have successfully made games on the Wii.  They made games on the SNES, they made games on the Atari 2600, they will make great games on the PS3 and the PC and the XBox2520.  If he can't make a good game (oh, excuse me, if he can't "make art") on the Wii... it seems the failure is with him, not the canvas.
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« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2007, 03:57:55 AM »

Quote from: unbreakable on March 08, 2007, 03:49:13 AM

Quote from: denoginizer on March 08, 2007, 03:30:03 AM

The Nintendo Defense Force rallies to the cause !!!

Had he said the same thing about ANY platform, I would have made the same statement.

People have successfully made games on the Wii.  They made games on the SNES, they made games on the Atari 2600, they will make great games on the PS3 and the PC and the XBox2520.  If he can't make a good game (oh, excuse me, if he can't "make art") on the Wii... it seems the failure is with him, not the canvas.

Had he said it about another platform I don't think anyone would have paid any attention to him. 
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« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2007, 03:58:57 AM »

Quote from: JCC on March 08, 2007, 01:25:00 AM

OUCH!

Hey, I didn't know it had 2 gamecubes in it! Wicked.


Unfortunately I agree with him.  Nintendo just doesn't seem with it anymore.  I've played the Wii enough to label it a damn joke of a system IMO.  I literally laugh out loud when playing it, not because it is fun but because I cannot believe they actually managed to make the damn thing a big seller. Its like WTF?!?

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« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2007, 04:13:48 AM »

Quote from: Calvin on March 08, 2007, 01:42:27 AM

It doesn't sound like any of that to me, I am not sure where you guys are reading it as crybabies and all that-he is saying that for the type of games the company he is a part of wants to make, the Wii is woefully insufficient, and is comparing it to two gamecubes strapped together. Yeah, he is being a bit of a jerk about it, but he is a dev, he is concerned with the bottom line, and he thinks the Wii is not at all suitable for the games they make.

Yet Spore has been announced for the DS?  saywhat
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« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2007, 04:26:02 AM »

Quote from: denoginizer on March 08, 2007, 03:57:55 AM

Quote from: unbreakable on March 08, 2007, 03:49:13 AM

Quote from: denoginizer on March 08, 2007, 03:30:03 AM

The Nintendo Defense Force rallies to the cause !!!

Had he said the same thing about ANY platform, I would have made the same statement.

People have successfully made games on the Wii.  They made games on the SNES, they made games on the Atari 2600, they will make great games on the PS3 and the PC and the XBox2520.  If he can't make a good game (oh, excuse me, if he can't "make art") on the Wii... it seems the failure is with him, not the canvas.

Had he said it about another platform I don't think anyone would have paid any attention to him. 

And the Nintendo Haterade Force rallies to the cause!

For the record, I sit with Unbreakable on this one. Unless this guy thinks that no games yet made can qualify as art in a new medium (and I can name many on various platforms that I'd argue count), then no, the Wii isn't too underpowered for it. He basically wants the same thing everyone who smacks the Wii around wants: He wants a Nintendo PS360, not a Nintendo Wii. Hey, all the power to him. But that doesn't make him right and Nintendo wrong. *shrugs*
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« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2007, 04:32:28 AM »

"The Wii is a piece of shit!" Hecker began his talk, which was called "Fear of a Wii Planet." He blasted a few bars of Public Enemy to set the tone. Hecker said the Wii is nothing more than two GameCubes stuck together with duct tape..."

Guys.  It's a joke.  Relax.  Nintendo is making money hand over fist.  EA eats babies and sacrifices puppies during their managment meetings.  Every day people say worse things about the PS3, and they actually mean it.

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« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2007, 04:39:05 AM »

Quote from: denoginizer on March 08, 2007, 04:32:28 AM

Every day people say worse things about the PS3, and they actually mean it.

And those people are just as unreasonable as Mr. Spore Developer the Master Artiste. icon_wink
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« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2007, 08:13:37 AM »

And for that matter.  The GDC, despite the heightened exposure, is still a very restrictive convention between game developers.  As such, these people talk to each other as fellow developers, joke as developers, and be frank as developers.
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« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2007, 12:17:23 PM »

Quote from: CrayolaSmoker on March 08, 2007, 04:13:48 AM

Quote from: Calvin on March 08, 2007, 01:42:27 AM

It doesn't sound like any of that to me, I am not sure where you guys are reading it as crybabies and all that-he is saying that for the type of games the company he is a part of wants to make, the Wii is woefully insufficient, and is comparing it to two gamecubes strapped together. Yeah, he is being a bit of a jerk about it, but he is a dev, he is concerned with the bottom line, and he thinks the Wii is not at all suitable for the games they make.

Yet Spore has been announced for the DS?  saywhat

you truly believe its even remotely the same game? Oblivion has been announced for PSP-think its the same game? Seriously dude... ninja
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« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2007, 12:38:08 PM »

Quote
How many Wii units sold in 4 months?

Taken care of, right off the top!  icon_biggrin

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« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2007, 12:50:45 PM »

+1 to what Kobra said.
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« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2007, 01:11:26 PM »

While he certainly has the right to rant, and I feel he did it in the right forum, he's still wrong on a number of points. Nintendo's games are much more of an "art form" then many, many games on more powerful systems. Hell, I would argue being able to create something great on the Wii is more of an art form then creating a great looking racing game on the PS3 or 360.
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« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2007, 01:22:46 PM »

Maxis is owned by EA, so the man undoubtedly has at least a familiarity with shit.
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« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2007, 01:26:56 PM »

Quote from: godhugh on March 08, 2007, 01:11:26 PM

Nintendo's games are much more of an "art form" then many, many games on more powerful systems. Hell, I would argue being able to create something great on the Wii is more of an art form then creating a great looking racing game on the PS3 or 360.

I'm sorry, but by absolutely what objective viewpoint is this at all true? How silly.
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« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2007, 01:33:35 PM »

I personally think the Wii looks like cave drawings with kickass controls that are often underused.  It is my opinion.  This guy is entitled to his opinion as well.  I own a Wii and I don't think its a piece of shit.  On the other hand, I can see his point when I look at the other two 'next gen' machines.  It has to be a pain for a developer to be confined to the same "underpowered" system specs as last generation, but with a whole new control mechanic and be expected to bring the 'next gen' experience.
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« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2007, 01:52:24 PM »

The Wii is a great second system.  I can't wait to see what comes out for it and how my kids will pick it up in the coming year or so. (My eldest is 3)  When I want more serious gaming I play my 360; when I want some more simple fun or want to include non-traditional gamers, the Wii fits the bill quite well. 
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« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2007, 01:58:35 PM »

You know what I don't get about these guys?  They don't see that they can actually have it both ways for once.  Seriously, think about it.  You take one game - make it all pretty and next-gen with amazing HD graphics for the PS3/XBox360 crowd and then take that same game, concentrate less on the graphics because it's not as important, and focus on exploiting the Wii controls in a way that makes the game more immersive than ever before for the Wii.  How hard is that to do really?  How are they not going to make money hand over fist by selling the game for all three consoles?

Honestly, it doesn't matter what console you like, this guy is a dumbass for not seeing the potential in the Wii and harnessing that in a way that can make him more money.  Many, many people forget about how the GBA/DS have made their mark completely destroying the Sony PSP which touted better graphics as it's battle cry.  It's going to be a real shame if these ignorant developers don't wake up and see the potential of the Wii. 
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« Reply #31 on: March 08, 2007, 02:00:24 PM »

Quote from: Calvin on March 08, 2007, 01:26:56 PM

Quote from: godhugh on March 08, 2007, 01:11:26 PM

Nintendo's games are much more of an "art form" then many, many games on more powerful systems. Hell, I would argue being able to create something great on the Wii is more of an art form then creating a great looking racing game on the PS3 or 360.

I'm sorry, but by absolutely what objective viewpoint is this at all true? How silly.

From my objective standpoint (my favorite console is the 360 by a wide margin) it takes more skill to create an amazing game with limited resources then it does to create something pretty on one of the more high-powered console. Personally, I'm more impressed by a very fun game with okay graphics then a "meh" game with amazing graphics. Great graphics tend to be a fallback for a lot of developers, they use them to cover up gameplay flaws. When one is able to create something great without that crutch, it's pretty remarkable and it would qualify more as "art" then something like Motorstorm or DOA IMO.

And spare me the "how silly" crap please. If you disagree, then just say so and I will gladly engage in a nice argument (always up for one), but don't be condescending.
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« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2007, 02:08:52 PM »

That is your subjective opinion, not objective opinion-thus arguing about it would serve little constructive purpose. So, when we get all the terminology down and you want to tell me exactly how, independant of bias you can prove your supposition, I will go back and remove the "how silly". As it is, I still see games on the PS2 I would consider much greater works of art than on the Wii, the 360, and the PS3. Conversely, I don't make any attempts to penalize the artistic merits of a next-gen game because the console can push more pixels-and there are elements of the artistic and architectural direction of Gears of War that blow away anything from previous consoles to my eyes. But that is my opinion. That's subjective. Thats not an argument-its a statement of opinion, and I can't convince you of that-hence my response to your original post.
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« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2007, 02:13:52 PM »

Quote from: Knightshade Dragon on March 08, 2007, 01:33:35 PM

I personally think the Wii looks like cave drawings with kickass controls that are often underused.  It is my opinion.  This guy is entitled to his opinion as well.  I own a Wii and I don't think its a piece of shit.  On the other hand, I can see his point when I look at the other two 'next gen' machines.  It has to be a pain for a developer to be confined to the same "underpowered" system specs as last generation, but with a whole new control mechanic and be expected to bring the 'next gen' experience.

Perfectly said. I like my Wii, but damn, its like going back in time when I play the thing and don't get me started on the lack of games. Personally, even though I like the system, I am incredibly underwhelmed at this point, there, I said it and it feels like 10 pounds off my chest. I think the Sony guy was right when he called it a novelty, because at this point, Nintendo isn't showing me much and all we have for now is a system with stale games, but a creative new control system. That is NOT a recipe for success.

When the game I have played the most is a Virtual Console title (Mario Kart 64) rather than your flagship title (the new Zelda) you have a problem.
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« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2007, 02:17:58 PM »

Don't they moan at GDC every year about the lack of innovation and that games shouldn't be about graphics? Wii innovates with an entirely new control structure and now they moan that the graphics aren't pretty enough.  Screw them.
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« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2007, 02:25:42 PM »

Quote
To illustrate his point, he searched for references to games as art on all three console manufacturers web sites. While he found numerous such references on both the official PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 sites, Wii.com had none at all.

That's some high-quality sleuthing there Encyclopedia Brown.
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« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2007, 02:28:35 PM »

Quote from: Calvin on March 08, 2007, 02:08:52 PM

That is your subjective opinion, not objective opinion-thus arguing about it would serve little constructive purpose. So, when we get all the terminology down and you want to tell me exactly how, independant of bias you can prove your supposition, I will go back and remove the "how silly". As it is, I still see games on the PS2 I would consider much greater works of art than on the Wii, the 360, and the PS3. Conversely, I don't make any attempts to penalize the artistic merits of a next-gen game because the console can push more pixels-and there are elements of the artistic and architectural direction of Gears of War that blow away anything from previous consoles to my eyes. But that is my opinion. That's subjective. Thats not an argument-its a statement of opinion, and I can't convince you of that-hence my response to your original post.

I don't know why you think you can't convince me of your opinion. I wouldn't have entered into the argument if I wasn't willing to listen to counter-points. We probably agree on a good bit here as I consider the best "game as art" in the past year to be Dead Rising and not any Wii games, but my point is that I'm generally more impressed by an amazingly fun game on the DS and Wii then a good game with amazing graphics on the 360 or PS3. If a game can achieve both however, like Dead Rising, then it easily vaults to the top of my list.
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« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2007, 02:32:18 PM »

It's too bad some people (i.e. this bitter developer) can't see anything in a system other than graphics prowess.  Some of my favorite games are dinosaurs graphically (most recently FFVI on GBA), but truly shine with things like gameplay, story, artwork, etc.

There's far more to a game than the amount of shinys that can be crammed on screen at once.
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« Reply #38 on: March 08, 2007, 02:46:49 PM »

I love my Wii, and I can see where a more powerful system would require more whiz-bang graphics which would require bigger development budgets and stamp out the innovative little guys and all that--but I can't help but think that I wouldn't have minded paying an extra $150 (bringing it to $400) to make it as powerful as an Xbox 360.

That new Little Big Planet (link to HD vid) game would be an absolutely perfect match for the casual Wii's audience.  If you watch that video, it's almost like watching a Pixar short.  But it's simply not possible for the Wii to run something like that.  Sure, you could tone down the graphics and keep the same gameplay, but I think it would lose its accessibility and a lot of its appeal.

Just how big a budget is necessary to create a game like Little Big Planet?  Because if it isn't excessive, I think it's a great example of how it's possible to have our cake (innovative games, good polish, focus on fun over being empty but shiny) and eat it too (ooh shiny!)

Viva Piñata sounds like another game that would be a huge hit with the Wii audience if the Wii could run it.
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Jancelot
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« Reply #39 on: March 08, 2007, 02:48:36 PM »

Quote from: jblank on March 08, 2007, 02:13:52 PM

Quote from: Knightshade Dragon on March 08, 2007, 01:33:35 PM

I personally think the Wii looks like cave drawings with kickass controls that are often underused.  It is my opinion.  This guy is entitled to his opinion as well.  I own a Wii and I don't think its a piece of shit.  On the other hand, I can see his point when I look at the other two 'next gen' machines.  It has to be a pain for a developer to be confined to the same "underpowered" system specs as last generation, but with a whole new control mechanic and be expected to bring the 'next gen' experience.

Perfectly said. I like my Wii, but damn, its like going back in time when I play the thing and don't get me started on the lack of games. Personally, even though I like the system, I am incredibly underwhelmed at this point, there, I said it and it feels like 10 pounds off my chest. I think the Sony guy was right when he called it a novelty, because at this point, Nintendo isn't showing me much and all we have for now is a system with stale games, but a creative new control system. That is NOT a recipe for success.

When the game I have played the most is a Virtual Console title (Mario Kart 64) rather than your flagship title (the new Zelda) you have a problem.

+1 to all of these points.  I had a blast the other night when my friend was over.  We were drinking some beer, boxing, bowling, playing tennis and some Wario.  But when he left I booted up the 360 for my single and online multiplayer gaming.  The Wii has a place but so far it's not very broad due to the very nature of the launch titles.  I'm sure we'll see some nice games coming out this Fall, but I still lament its lack of graphical prowess.

Then again, this guy wasn't completely serious as well.  It's like watching one of those celebrity roasts and taking those comments seriously.  Sure the points are valid, but they are mostly exaggerated to an egregious extent.
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