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Author Topic: So much for Revolution not being "powerful" enough  (Read 4335 times)
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Dafones
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« Reply #40 on: April 09, 2006, 11:03:29 PM »

Quote from: "denoginizer"
The controller is the entire Revolution in my mind.


I am defending Nintendo on this a little, yes, but this is incorrect for a few reasons. The new style of controller is going to be an important part, but not the only part. The Virtual Console / Downloadable library is a major part of the system. The controller stick is not the only method of control - there will be peripherals to it, and standard wireless controllers as well. And, according to Nintendo, there is still another key element or two to the system that we do not even know about yet, but we will find out at E3 2006. The system does not rest on the stick controller - but that's not to say that one can't judge the controller itself, if that makes any sense, and there isn't really a single Nintedo fan or fanboi who can really offer an honest appraisal of it, for better or for worse, until they've tried it out.

And yet we still love to talk about it.
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« Reply #41 on: April 09, 2006, 11:31:12 PM »

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The thing is the Revo will be totally reliant on those things to draw people to it. Those things you mentioned are gimmicks for the PS2.


This is the point I agree with. For most games where you have to use any peripheral besides the standard control pad, its just a gimmick and the majority of your gaming time isn't spent on that particular peripheral. If Nintendo is expecting us to spend most of our time using their new controller, they are taking a risky bet. If they are expecting 3rd party developers to embrace the idea and create games around this unique control model, they are downright stupid (in a business sense, I would like to clarify). Besides Nintendo's games, I can't see any software utilizing the controller, especially in this day and age where the smarter move is to release a game multi-platform rather than exclusively, because most surely any game made to utilize the Rev controller will have to be exclusive.

And yes, the personal attacks on people's physical fitness because they don't want to swing that controller on end is quite inane...
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« Reply #42 on: April 10, 2006, 12:21:58 AM »

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If they are expecting 3rd party developers to embrace the idea and create games around this unique control model, they are downright stupid (in a business sense, I would like to clarify).


I think you are dead wrong on this one.  3rd party devs have almost unanimously come out in favor of it and I think we are in store for some pretty damn innovating games.
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« Reply #43 on: April 10, 2006, 12:42:04 AM »

Quote from: "Dafones"

I am defending Nintendo on this a little, yes, but this is incorrect for a few reasons. The new style of controller is going to be an important part, but not the only part. The Virtual Console / Downloadable library is a major part of the system. The controller stick is not the only method of control - there will be peripherals to it, and standard wireless controllers as well.


I just don't see the virtual console appealing to anyone but hard core gamers.  The average teen today has absolutely zero interest in playing 16 bit games on their next gen console.  And as I have said before, alot of hardcore gamers have been playing emulated versions of those old games for years anyway.  Also if I am using the controller as a regular gamepad than what I am really doing is playing on a regular console with inferior visuals.  Are companies going to make exclusive titles for this thing and create them with a standard gamepad controller in mind?  Why would they do that?


 
Quote from: "Dafones"
And, according to Nintendo, there is still another key element or two to the system that we do not even know about yet, but we will find out at E3 2006.


That is interesting.  I am looking foward to what they announce.
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« Reply #44 on: April 10, 2006, 12:44:43 AM »

Quote from: "th'FOOL"

I think you are dead wrong on this one.  3rd party devs have almost unanimously come out in favor of it and I think we are in store for some pretty damn innovating games.


Yes they have said they are in favor of itin theory.  But we'll see what they actually produce.  Saying it is cool is one thing, actually taking a chance by creating games for it is something else.
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« Reply #45 on: April 10, 2006, 12:58:40 AM »

Quote from: "denoginizer"
Quote from: "th'FOOL"

I think you are dead wrong on this one.  3rd party devs have almost unanimously come out in favor of it and I think we are in store for some pretty damn innovating games.


Yes they have said they are in favor of itin theory.  But we'll see what they actually produce.  Saying it is cool is one thing, actually taking a chance by creating games for it is something else.


Oh, you mean like the 'chance' they are taking by designing DS games?

Also, realize that the cost of entry in devtime for the Rev is supposed to be considerably less than the rest of the next gen platforms
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« Reply #46 on: April 10, 2006, 02:18:40 AM »

Quote from: "th'FOOL"

Oh, you mean like the 'chance' they are taking by designing DS games?


How many DS games really make good use of the touch screen?  My favorite DS games are Mario Cart, Age of Empires, Advance Wars, and Castlevania.  All of those would be just as good without touch screen support in my opinion.  Hunters is the first game that I have played that would be totally different without the touch screen and that is a first party game.

Quote from: "th'FOOL"
Also, realize that the cost of entry in devtime for the Rev is supposed to be considerably less than the rest of the next gen platforms


It will have to be considering there is no chance of porting the game to other consoles without changing the control dynamics significantly.
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« Reply #47 on: April 10, 2006, 04:32:58 AM »

Quote from: "denoginizer"
Hunters is the first game that I have played that would be totally different without the touch screen and that is a first party game.

You really should check out Kirby: Canvas Curse then.  There's no way the game could ever work on any system but the DS with it's touch screen input.  It's also (not coincidentally) one of the most fun 2D platformers I've played.

I suppose Meteos could be played with the d-pad but I can't imagine getting a high score that way.
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Dafones
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« Reply #48 on: April 10, 2006, 08:10:19 AM »

Quote from: "denoginizer"
I just don't see the virtual console appealing to anyone but hard core gamers.  The average teen today has absolutely zero interest in playing 16 bit games on their next gen console.


I ... uh ... well, you could be right. I may not be able to appreciate the "average" gamer's mindset. A fourteen year old never grew up playing Mario and Contra like I did. Those games most certainly won't mean as much to them as they do to my generation - may not mean anything. But, I don't think it's fair to say that the average teen has absolutely zero interest in the ol' classics. Some games, like any kind of, (how do I put it?), media art? - books, movies, music, comics - go beyond date, beyond graphics and more basic systems. They are still enjoyable today, they still hold up on their own. And I think young kids are still aware of these games.

But you have a very, very good point. I really have no way to gauge the interest level of the "average" teenager, because I'm past that now. But who's to say that they won't become interested, once they pick up a system for the killer FPS ... that their parents probably shouldn't let them play in the first place?

I still think the virtual console is going to do pretty damn well. I'm looking forward to it, in the least.
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« Reply #49 on: April 10, 2006, 11:36:55 AM »

Quote from: "TheMissingLink"
I'd say that playing the Eyetoy shit at demo units in the store would be more embarassing then holding a revmote in a gun-like fashion and I've done that.  And what's more embarassing than playing DDR at an arcade?

Seriously, is it so hard to imagine holding the controller in that fashion?  I have never gotten arm cramps from playing Virtua Cop 2 at the arcade - how is this any different?

Anti-Nintendo people are just tossing around minor quibbles and turning them into huge major issues for no reason, from what I'm reading.  I can see it; believe me, I used to do the same thing with the 360.


While it seems trivial, you held the lightgun with 2 hands.  The revolution controller has you controlling movement with one hand, usually shown at your side and the other hand on the wand.  I realise to some this seems like it isn't that big of a deal.  I just would like to see some actual footage of someone playing with the controller on thier lap.  I want to see how exagerated of movements they will need to make with thier wrists, or would the movement all be with my wrist locked in position.
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« Reply #50 on: April 10, 2006, 11:49:18 AM »

Quote from: "warning"
Quote from: "denoginizer"
Hunters is the first game that I have played that would be totally different without the touch screen and that is a first party game.

You really should check out Kirby: Canvas Curse then.  There's no way the game could ever work on any system but the DS with it's touch screen input.  It's also (not coincidentally) one of the most fun 2D platformers I've played.

I suppose Meteos could be played with the d-pad but I can't imagine getting a high score that way.


I was going to mention Kirby and Meteos as well. Also Nintendogs comes to mind, even something like Zoo Keeper.

An upcoming game that should make great use of the screen is the Puzzloop remake, Magnetica. Think Zuma using the stylus to flick the colored balls around.

It isn't just the touch screen, either...simply having the second screen is part of it too. There are games that make very good use of that second screen (like Age of Empires) even though touch isn't a major component.
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« Reply #51 on: April 10, 2006, 02:38:15 PM »

Quote from: "Arkon"
I want to see how exagerated of movements they will need to make with thier wrists, or would the movement all be with my wrist locked in position.

We linked to this awhile back but CNN's Chris Morris had an article about the Rev controller: link.

Quote
Shaped like a television remote control, the Revolution controller uses internal sensors to translate your wrist, arm and hand movements on screen. It's easy to use, but takes a few minutes to adjust your playing style. (I initially found myself waving my arms wildly, resulting in the onscreen pointer whizzing back and forth at blinding speeds.)

Nintendo wasn't kidding when it said it wanted to change the way people play, though. Once I figured out that subtle movements made for simple gameplay...

He then goes on to talk about several games he played including a revamped version of Metroid Prime 2 that used the new controller.

Quote
Confession time: When it comes to console shooters, I'm terrible. I can finish them, but I'm nowhere near as competent as I am with my mouse/keyboard setup for the PC. In the early stages of the "Metroid" demo, it looked like this trend would continue, as I was all over the screen. By mid-way, though, I was better able to move and aim – and enjoyed the game far more than I did with the GameCube controller. ("Metroid" fans... well, you're probably already pretty excited.)

It turns out I'm not the only one who has this problem with standard controllers.

"I was a developer for many years before my current role, but I've never been a very good gamer," Nintendo president Satoru Iwata told me. "I've never been able to control a first-person shooter, but as soon as I used the Revolution controller, I found it very easy to control the game. So, I think that's a genre that's particularly well suited for the controller."

Based on the above, I think the concerns about having to hold the controller with your arm extended and waving around are pretty unwarranted.  I'm sure you could play it that way but I really can't see Nintendo basing their console future on a controller that can only be used comfortably for 20 minutes.

Though I fully expect someone to show up in a couple minutes with "OMFG noes!!  U forgotzors teh Power Glove!1!!!1!"
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« Reply #52 on: April 10, 2006, 03:19:35 PM »

Quote from: "warning"
I'm sure you could play it that way but I really can't see Nintendo basing their console future on a controller that can only be used comfortably for 20 minutes.

Though I fully expect someone to show up in a couple minutes with "OMFG noes!!  U forgotzors teh Power Glove!1!!!1!"

No no no...

OMFG noes!!  U forgotzors teh Virtual Boy!1!!!1!

How were you supposed to use that thing, anyway? biggrin
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« Reply #53 on: April 10, 2006, 03:29:08 PM »

The VB was a great concept, but unfortunately just didn't work out.  I tried it, and while it was nifty, it hurt my eyes especially with those awful shades of red they used for the system.  I didn't think a screen could be uglier than the original pea-green Game Boy screen.  slywink
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« Reply #54 on: April 10, 2006, 04:31:09 PM »

While we're on the subject of the Revolution here's some more information courtesy of Revolution Report:
Quote
In a recent interview with Game Informer Magazine, Nintendo of America's Senior Vice President of Marketing and Corporate Communication George Harrison cited the number of titles expected at the launch of the company's next-generation console, code-named Nintendo Revolution.

According to Harrison, Nintendo is planning approximately 20 titles total for Revolution's launch. He also noted that about a third of them would come from Nintendo.

Harrison also said Nintendo has learned some lessons from the PlayStation 2's success and GameCube's launch. "The other thing we recognized is that you really make your reputation in the first year. You've got to deliver software, not just at launch, but you've got to deliver software in the first six to nine months after launch. It has to be solid software," Harrison stated. "In GameCube, we didn't have that, we had kind of a drought for six months after it launched. By that time your reputation starts to solidify and it's hard to reverse that after awhile."

It's nice to see they aren't hiding their head in the sand (or their asses) regarding the GameCube's poor title selection.
Quote
On the topic of horsepower, Harrison said a souped-up GameCube would have most likely performed as poorly as the original. Hence why Nintendo chose a different route. He did assure, though, that Revolution will be a multiple of GameCube's technical capacities.

The second quote intrigues me.  "a multiple" is pretty vague.  It could be 2x or 4x.
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« Reply #55 on: April 10, 2006, 04:42:19 PM »

Quote from: "warning"
Quote
On the topic of horsepower, Harrison said a souped-up GameCube would have most likely performed as poorly as the original. Hence why Nintendo chose a different route. He did assure, though, that Revolution will be a multiple of GameCube's technical capacities.

The second quote intrigues me.  "a multiple" is pretty vague.  It could be 2x or 4x.


or 1.3x or 0.75x or...
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« Reply #56 on: April 10, 2006, 04:55:32 PM »

Quote from: "TheMissingLink"

Seriously, is it so hard to imagine holding the controller in that fashion?  I have never gotten arm cramps from playing Virtua Cop 2 at the arcade - how is this any different?


A game of virtua cop generally doesn't last more than a few minutes, and requires very little motion, compared to the "sword swinging" example that keeps getting mentioned.
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« Reply #57 on: April 10, 2006, 05:10:26 PM »

Quote from: "coopasonic"
Quote from: "warning"
Quote
On the topic of horsepower, Harrison said a souped-up GameCube would have most likely performed as poorly as the original. Hence why Nintendo chose a different route. He did assure, though, that Revolution will be a multiple of GameCube's technical capacities.

The second quote intrigues me.  "a multiple" is pretty vague.  It could be 2x or 4x.


or 1.3x or 0.75x or...


Or 0x and have no power at all!  :shock:
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« Reply #58 on: April 10, 2006, 05:17:05 PM »

Quote from: "Ralph-Wiggum"
Quote from: "coopasonic"
Quote from: "warning"
Quote
On the topic of horsepower, Harrison said a souped-up GameCube would have most likely performed as poorly as the original. Hence why Nintendo chose a different route. He did assure, though, that Revolution will be a multiple of GameCube's technical capacities.

The second quote intrigues me.  "a multiple" is pretty vague.  It could be 2x or 4x.


or 1.3x or 0.75x or...


Or 0x and have no power at all!  :shock:


This just in, the Revolution has no processors at all, it is powered by heart containers and 1-up mushrooms.
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« Reply #59 on: April 10, 2006, 07:05:12 PM »

This may add a whole new dimention to "hard core gamer" with posts about how long someone spent playing a game straight.

Weenie #1 - "Dude I just played Super Mario X for 3 hours straight!"
Weenie #2 - "Wha...I cramps up mad after 20 minutes of that."
Weenie #1 - "Newb."

My guess is this whole thing is going to be a non-issue and the sky is falling concerns will dry up upon release.
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« Reply #60 on: April 10, 2006, 09:04:45 PM »

Quote from: "Ralph-Wiggum"
Quote from: "coopasonic"
Quote from: "warning"
Quote
On the topic of horsepower, Harrison said a souped-up GameCube would have most likely performed as poorly as the original. Hence why Nintendo chose a different route. He did assure, though, that Revolution will be a multiple of GameCube's technical capacities.

The second quote intrigues me.  "a multiple" is pretty vague.  It could be 2x or 4x.


or 1.3x or 0.75x or...


Or 0x and have no power at all!  :shock:

Or -1x and actually SUCK the power out of nearby next-gen consoles.
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« Reply #61 on: April 10, 2006, 09:21:51 PM »

Quote from: "Bob"
Quote from: "Ralph-Wiggum"
Quote from: "coopasonic"
Quote from: "warning"
Quote
On the topic of horsepower, Harrison said a souped-up GameCube would have most likely performed as poorly as the original. Hence why Nintendo chose a different route. He did assure, though, that Revolution will be a multiple of GameCube's technical capacities.

The second quote intrigues me.  "a multiple" is pretty vague.  It could be 2x or 4x.


or 1.3x or 0.75x or...


Or 0x and have no power at all!  :shock:

Or -1x and actually SUCK the power out of nearby next-gen consoles.

Or it could come with it's own hamster and treadmill for power!
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« Reply #62 on: April 10, 2006, 11:50:58 PM »

Ah, here is the link to Quake 4 being played with a gyro mouse.

Quote
Here are some videos featuring Quake 3 Arena being played with a gyro mouse (the technology that the new Nintendo Revolution controller will be using) as well as a standard mouse.
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« Reply #63 on: April 11, 2006, 02:24:39 AM »

I have no idea if that kind of mouse makes things better or not. A video doesn't do it for me. Gotta experience it myself. Still curious as hell to see what the Revo stick is like though.
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« Reply #64 on: April 11, 2006, 02:51:34 AM »

From the video, it at least seemed that aiming was a million times better than using a stupid console controller to aim.  I am truly amazed that people actually enjoy FPS games on a console, but that is obviously colored greatly by my pro-PC bias.
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« Reply #65 on: April 11, 2006, 03:21:48 AM »

Quote from: "unbreakable"
 I am truly amazed that people actually enjoy FPS games on a console, but that is obviously colored greatly by my pro-PC bias.


A couple of years ago I would have agreed with you.  But now I actually enjoy FPS's on consoles.  The last PC FPS I played was HL2.  While I have played through at least 4 FPS's on consoles since then including CoD2, Halo2, Quake 4, and GRAW.  I think you reach a point where the controller just feels comfotable.  I can't explain it, but I now prefer the controller to keyboard/mouse.  I never would have said that 2 years ago.
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« Reply #66 on: April 14, 2006, 07:32:06 PM »

I just saw this article and, rather than start a new thread, decided I'd put it in here.

According to the CEO of Ubisoft Montreal (Prince of Peris, Splinter Cell Chaos Theory) the Revolution is a "magical platform".
Quote
I can say definitely, as any other developer, we are looking at this magical platform, and we want to be part of the adventure. You know already that Red Steel is made public in Game Informer. That's an exclusive Ubisoft title, made in Ubisoft Paris. And I'm pretty sure we'll see other Revolution games from Ubisoft. And some of them, I'm sure, will be made from Montreal.

Nice to see definite 3rd-party support getting lined up.
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« Reply #67 on: April 14, 2006, 08:12:13 PM »

Quote from: "unbreakable"
From the video, it at least seemed that aiming was a million times better than using a stupid console controller to aim.  I am truly amazed that people actually enjoy FPS games on a console, but that is obviously colored greatly by my pro-PC bias.


I think the xbox/xbox 360 controller works pretty well for FPSs.  I cant stand them on the PS2 though.  You are right though, the best way to play them is with a keyboard and mouse... that is.... until the REVOLUTION!... hopefully...
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« Reply #68 on: April 14, 2006, 09:10:49 PM »

It says in the GI article that Nintendo is planning to have 20 titles at launch, 2/3 from third-party developers.
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