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Author Topic: So I ragequit Civilization  (Read 1646 times)
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Eel Snave
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« on: December 11, 2009, 04:00:03 AM »

I swear, no other game can make me as happy or as angry as Civ.  I just ragequit Civ 4 because two nations jumped me out of the blue.  Sure, one of them was a neighbor, but one was extremely friendly with me throughout the entire game and had NO reason to come get me.  Drives me absolutely insane.  Can't stand it.
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Chaz
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« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2009, 04:03:30 AM »

You are so full of rage that you tried to play Civ4 on your 360!  biggrin
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Eel Snave
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« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2009, 04:27:35 AM »

Quote from: Chaz on December 11, 2009, 04:03:30 AM

You are so full of rage that you tried to play Civ4 on your 360!  biggrin



???
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Gratch
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« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2009, 04:29:12 AM »

*cough*ConsoleForum*cough*
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Chaz
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« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2009, 04:29:48 AM »

dingdingdingding!
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Eel Snave
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« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2009, 04:37:51 AM »

(cough)

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CeeKay
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« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2009, 05:01:38 AM »

yeah, that's one of the reasons I don't play Civ that much any more.
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TiLT
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« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2009, 05:40:56 AM »

Quote from: Eel Snave on December 11, 2009, 04:00:03 AM

I swear, no other game can make me as happy or as angry as Civ.  I just ragequit Civ 4 because two nations jumped me out of the blue.  Sure, one of them was a neighbor, but one was extremely friendly with me throughout the entire game and had NO reason to come get me.  Drives me absolutely insane.  Can't stand it.

I know the feeling. It's something I experienced a lot during my early boardgaming years. I'd set up profitable alliances with other (human) players, then at some point, and for no apparent reason, they'd betray me to my great frustration.

The point is, however: There is a reason why they attack. You did something wrong. You left yourself open and vulnerable. You got too powerful. You didn't give them the technology they asked for. You didn't come to their defenses when they needed you. Another player gave them an offer they couldn't refuse.

Put simply, you made a large tactical/strategic blunder. At some point you'll stop being angry about it and start seeing what you can do to stop it from happening again. That's what happened to me in boardgaming. I went from being the guy who got betrayed, to being the guy who sets up the most solid alliances. Yes, it can cost me, but nothing is free when it comes to friends.
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Sarkus
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« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2009, 09:04:49 AM »

Quote from: TiLT on December 11, 2009, 05:40:56 AM

Quote from: Eel Snave on December 11, 2009, 04:00:03 AM

I swear, no other game can make me as happy or as angry as Civ.  I just ragequit Civ 4 because two nations jumped me out of the blue.  Sure, one of them was a neighbor, but one was extremely friendly with me throughout the entire game and had NO reason to come get me.  Drives me absolutely insane.  Can't stand it.

I know the feeling. It's something I experienced a lot during my early boardgaming years. I'd set up profitable alliances with other (human) players, then at some point, and for no apparent reason, they'd betray me to my great frustration.

The point is, however: There is a reason why they attack. You did something wrong. You left yourself open and vulnerable. You got too powerful. You didn't give them the technology they asked for. You didn't come to their defenses when they needed you. Another player gave them an offer they couldn't refuse.

Put simply, you made a large tactical/strategic blunder. At some point you'll stop being angry about it and start seeing what you can do to stop it from happening again. That's what happened to me in boardgaming. I went from being the guy who got betrayed, to being the guy who sets up the most solid alliances. Yes, it can cost me, but nothing is free when it comes to friends.


You make it sound so logical.  The problem is, and this has existed from day one in the Civ franchise, that it isn't always logical.  You can be very friendly to a Civ, giving them what they want, etc., and still have them attack you out of the blue.  As far as I can tell, there is some random aspect to it that is related to the particular Civ and it's game attributes.  Now that may seem a logical gameplay element to include to the designers, but not all of us want to deal with that.  And I certainly share the OP's frustration.  I'd estimate that a significant number of my games end early when I suddenly get attacked by some Civ that I've done no wrong to.   
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TiLT
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« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2009, 11:13:46 AM »

Quote from: Sarkus on December 11, 2009, 09:04:49 AM

Quote from: TiLT on December 11, 2009, 05:40:56 AM

Quote from: Eel Snave on December 11, 2009, 04:00:03 AM

I swear, no other game can make me as happy or as angry as Civ.  I just ragequit Civ 4 because two nations jumped me out of the blue.  Sure, one of them was a neighbor, but one was extremely friendly with me throughout the entire game and had NO reason to come get me.  Drives me absolutely insane.  Can't stand it.

I know the feeling. It's something I experienced a lot during my early boardgaming years. I'd set up profitable alliances with other (human) players, then at some point, and for no apparent reason, they'd betray me to my great frustration.

The point is, however: There is a reason why they attack. You did something wrong. You left yourself open and vulnerable. You got too powerful. You didn't give them the technology they asked for. You didn't come to their defenses when they needed you. Another player gave them an offer they couldn't refuse.

Put simply, you made a large tactical/strategic blunder. At some point you'll stop being angry about it and start seeing what you can do to stop it from happening again. That's what happened to me in boardgaming. I went from being the guy who got betrayed, to being the guy who sets up the most solid alliances. Yes, it can cost me, but nothing is free when it comes to friends.


You make it sound so logical.  The problem is, and this has existed from day one in the Civ franchise, that it isn't always logical.  You can be very friendly to a Civ, giving them what they want, etc., and still have them attack you out of the blue.  As far as I can tell, there is some random aspect to it that is related to the particular Civ and it's game attributes.  Now that may seem a logical gameplay element to include to the designers, but not all of us want to deal with that.  And I certainly share the OP's frustration.  I'd estimate that a significant number of my games end early when I suddenly get attacked by some Civ that I've done no wrong to.   

My point was that there's always a reason, even if it's not obvious to the player at the time. Part of becoming a great strategist (in Civilization and boardgames at least) is to be aware of the factors that count into your relationships and work with them. In boardgames that means knowing the players you play with. One of my friends is an incredibly clever bastard, and all my dealings with him in games are done with great care and respect, with the knowledge that if I try to manipulate him, I'm just as likely to be playing into his own manipulations. Another friend is likable but not tactically shrewd. He's likely to have lots of allies and he's unlikely to betray me, so I can relax a little around him. In Civilization you have similar factors. When you're dealing with Caesar, you're not going to be making a friend for life. If he sees profit in betraying you (or he sees that you're getting too powerful), he'll lash out with no second thoughts. This is the kind of stuff you learn over time and can adjust to. In my last game of Civilization 4 I was the closest neighbor to an extremely aggressive leader. During the early phases of the game I bribed him at every opportunity to keep the peace, but that doesn't last forever. After a while I started bribing his other neighbors, making sure he was at war with at least one of them at any given time so that he wouldn't have the time or capacity to go after me. I didn't have to do this with my less aggressive neighbors. I managed to go through the entirety of that game without ever going to war.
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Freezer-TPF-
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« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2009, 08:54:07 PM »

It's just payback for all the times you attack the AI for no good reason other than -- wanting to win the game.  All's fair in love and war.
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Eel Snave
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« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2009, 10:45:57 PM »

See, but I play as super-pacifist.  No wars, no fights.  I build up my culture and my knowledge and only attack barbarians.  Were they pissed because I wouldn't help them in their wars?  Who knows!  All I know us, right up until she attacked me, she was "Cautious" with me (not "Annoyed") and her co-conspirator was "Friendly" (not just "Pleased"!)  Drives me INSANE.
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TiLT
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« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2009, 09:07:39 AM »

Quote from: Eel Snave on December 11, 2009, 10:45:57 PM

See, but I play as super-pacifist.  No wars, no fights.  I build up my culture and my knowledge and only attack barbarians.  Were they pissed because I wouldn't help them in their wars?  Who knows!  All I know us, right up until she attacked me, she was "Cautious" with me (not "Annoyed") and her co-conspirator was "Friendly" (not just "Pleased"!)  Drives me INSANE.

Were you more powerful than them? The AI in Civilization recognizes when another player becomes dangerously powerful, and will often launch a preventive attack before it's too late unless they've got strong reasons not to. It's not unlikely that this was what happened to the Cautious civilization, and it convinced the other one (either through an alliance or through bribes) to join its war.
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godhugh
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« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2009, 02:02:14 PM »

Quote from: Eel Snave on December 11, 2009, 10:45:57 PM

See, but I play as super-pacifist.  No wars, no fights.  I build up my culture and my knowledge and only attack barbarians.  Were they pissed because I wouldn't help them in their wars?  Who knows!  All I know us, right up until she attacked me, she was "Cautious" with me (not "Annoyed") and her co-conspirator was "Friendly" (not just "Pleased"!)  Drives me INSANE.

I'm going to guess you didn't keep a very large army, right? That right there opens you up to being attacked by militarily strong Civs, and it makes perfect sense for them to do so. They're trying to win and being able to assimilate your culturally strong cities, or at least prevent you from spreading your culture, would be a big help to them. If you want a cultural victory in Civ, you have to use a policy of deterrence and distraction. Your army has to be strong enough to make other Civs at least think twice or, if attacked, hold your cities for a prolonged period of time (until you can either get some help, retaliate, or the opponent gets tired and you can sue for peace). TiLT described the distraction method already.
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TiLT
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« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2009, 03:05:06 PM »

It's also possible to just bribe them, but it's not a perfect method. Most civilizations will leave you alone if they realize that you will make them more powerful.
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Qantaga
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« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2009, 03:22:55 PM »

All this ragequit thread is doing is making me want to fire up Civ IV again. Actually, what it's really done is whet my appetite for a little SMAC/X this weekend. Ah, Chiron, how I've missed you. smile
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KePoW
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« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2009, 10:04:44 PM »

Quote from: Freezer-TPF- on December 11, 2009, 08:54:07 PM

It's just payback for all the times you attack the AI for no good reason other than -- wanting to win the game.  All's fair in love and war.

That's actually an excellent and funny point.
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