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Author Topic: Silent Hunter 3 uses Starforce protection  (Read 3563 times)
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Dan Lorenzen
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« on: March 14, 2005, 11:56:54 PM »

:cry:

Oh well. Don't mean to start a big debate about it but looks like no SH3 for me.

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=400102&f=857101043&m=7501032292

just a fyi for anyone else who cares about these kinds of things.
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Greggy_D
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« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2005, 01:46:18 AM »

Some specualtion is that it's only European copies that have SF, and even then it's not quite clear.  We'll find out for sure on Wednesday if it's in the US release.
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« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2005, 04:20:36 AM »

Crap! :?
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« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2005, 01:48:53 PM »

I don't care what it uses for copy protection. I NEED to play this game. PC games this good just don't come around very often anymore.
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« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2005, 05:40:00 PM »

Well, that's that for Ubisoft.  I guess I'll have to pirate any of their PC stuff I want to play from here on out.

EDIT:  I didn't mean I'd pirate as a kind of revenge, I meant I'd be forced to pirate if I wanted to play their games.
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« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2005, 05:54:21 PM »

I don't know if I have the willpower to say no frown  

The LOMAC expansion is easy to pass on--Starforce, limited number of registrations, "activation" based on hardware changes.  Fuck that.

SH3 looks so damn good tho.
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Knightshade Dragon
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« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2005, 07:08:59 PM »

Quote
I'll pirate any of their PC stuff I want from here on out.

You do know they read these boards right?  There are proper ways to protest your objections...
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« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2005, 08:27:03 PM »

Quote from: "Knightshade Dragon"
Quote
I'll pirate any of their PC stuff I want from here on out.

You do know they read these boards right?  There are proper ways to protest your objections...
I sincerely hope they read these boards and realize that Starforce only screws over the customer, and never the pirate.

Thus, if I want to play their Starforced game, I'll have to pirate it.

Really, I don't want to fund a company in any way that uses Starforce for any game.  I'd much rather Ubisoft just got out of PC gaming completely than publish PC games with the Starforce virus piggybacking along.
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Dan Lorenzen
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« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2005, 09:53:30 PM »

Quote from: "Greggy_D"
Some specualtion is that it's only European copies that have SF, and even then it's not quite clear.  We'll find out for sure on Wednesday if it's in the US release.


If you wouldn't mind, and if you're going to get the game, could you report back here if the US version has starforce on it? I would hate to have started a rumor here that is wrong and maybe turned off people that were planning to buy it if it doesn't use starforce.

Or maybe I'll just browse more on SH3's website. It will be nice to know for sure one way or the other.
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« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2005, 10:31:36 PM »

Quote from: "-Lord Ebonstone-"
Quote from: "Knightshade Dragon"
Quote
I'll pirate any of their PC stuff I want from here on out.

You do know they read these boards right?  There are proper ways to protest your objections...
I sincerely hope they read these boards and realize that Starforce only screws over the customer, and never the pirate.

Thus, if I want to play their Starforced game, I'll have to pirate it.

Really, I don't want to fund a company in any way that uses Starforce for any game.  I'd much rather Ubisoft just got out of PC gaming completely than publish PC games with the Starforce virus piggybacking along.


Rather silly dont you think? What are you going to do when all publishers go Starforce? get a new hobbie? I really could care less, as long as my PC does not blow up im ok with what ever they want to do.
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« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2005, 11:08:06 PM »

No I don't think it's rather silly. I'm glad it doesn't affect your system.I really am,but there's enough verified cases out there to justify people not wanting to buy Starforce games.
Another thing that ticks people off is that they install this "malware" without  notifying you first.
None the less there will never be an all or noting approach to it. Not all PC publishers are going to use it.I buy mostly non mainstream type of games,many of which have no copy protection at all.So as  far as I' m concerned the mainstream publishers can put Starforce on all their games and it won't matter to me much. But as I am a "hardcore" gamer and won't buy Starforce,they'll be shooting themselves in the foot if they follow that path. By this I mean that even tho I buy mainly non mainstream type games I'll still buy something like this on occasion(which is still more than the occasional gamer buys),but not if it has Starforce.
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« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2005, 12:10:54 AM »

This is a very serious question that I have yet to see answered.  Exactly what does Starforce do?  Give me some links or something.  I get the feeling this is one of those "mountain out of a molehill" type things, but I would like to be proven wrong.

You are right about the not being able to opt out of the malware supposedly connected to it, but what harm does it do to your computer?  Will it make it go slow, will it give you more pop-ups, etc.?
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« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2005, 12:59:02 AM »

Sstarforce is it has been shown to cause some hard to PCs, but only in a few AFAIK.  The key thing here is that it installs as a hardware driver, a big nono for software since it's more like a trojan when it does that, and it also installs secretly.

There's no warning on the box or during install, and when you uninstall the game, the starforce protection doesn't go with it.  To remove it, you need to download some exe off the starforce site.
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« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2005, 01:40:07 AM »

Quote from: "Falcon554"
Rather silly dont you think? What are you going to do when all publishers go Starforce? get a new hobbie? I really could care less, as long as my PC does not blow up im ok with what ever they want to do.
Hopefully that won't happen because concerned people like me boycott Starforced games.  Or entire publishing companies.
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Graham
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« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2005, 02:00:14 AM »

Quote from: "-Lord Ebonstone-"
Quote from: "Falcon554"
Rather silly dont you think? What are you going to do when all publishers go Starforce? get a new hobbie? I really could care less, as long as my PC does not blow up im ok with what ever they want to do.
Hopefully that won't happen because concerned people like me boycott Starforced games.  Or entire publishing companies.

You'd be less of a hypocrite if you bought the game and go a No-CD crack.
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« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2005, 02:07:57 AM »

Quote from: "Graham"
You'd be less of a hypocrite if you bought the game and go a No-CD crack.


While I agree with the logic, the problem is that StarForce is installed when the game is.  A NoCD crack would allow you to play without the original, but this doesn't do you any good if you had to install StarForce in the first place.

On another note, I know that StarForce has been cracked, but do the groups recode the installer so that it is not installed as part of the normal routine?  If not then you are no better off despite it all.  I guess there are always the rips which would solve the issue.
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« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2005, 04:20:20 AM »

Quote from: "Graham"
Quote from: "-Lord Ebonstone-"
Quote from: "Falcon554"
Rather silly dont you think? What are you going to do when all publishers go Starforce? get a new hobbie? I really could care less, as long as my PC does not blow up im ok with what ever they want to do.
Hopefully that won't happen because concerned people like me boycott Starforced games.  Or entire publishing companies.

You'd be less of a hypocrite if you bought the game and go a No-CD crack.
There is no such thing as a "no-cd crack" for Starforce.

And I don't understand how I'm being a hypocrite.
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AgtFox
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« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2005, 04:47:01 AM »

Quote from: "Turtle"
Sstarforce is it has been shown to cause some hard to PCs, but only in a few AFAIK.  The key thing here is that it installs as a hardware driver, a big nono for software since it's more like a trojan when it does that, and it also installs secretly.

There's no warning on the box or during install, and when you uninstall the game, the starforce protection doesn't go with it.  To remove it, you need to download some exe off the starforce site.

OK...I supposedly have a game that has Starforce on it (Scrapland that I got to review...was not a build copy).  I just looked through my hardware devices and didn't see anything out of the ordinary.  If it truly installs a hardware driver it would be located there.

Once again, it sounds like this is very "mountain out of a molehill", nevermind that no one seems to truly know if a game has Starforce on it or not and weeks of debate goes on whether a game has it on it or not.  Anyone have any links to any information on Starforce whether it be horror stories or non-horror stories.  I'm just looking for info because I work in the IT industry and am just flabbergasted by what exactly Starforce is or what it does to your computer.
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Dan Lorenzen
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« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2005, 05:47:36 AM »

Quote from: "AgtFox"
OK...I supposedly have a game that has Starforce on it (Scrapland that I got to review...was not a build copy).  I just looked through my hardware devices and didn't see anything out of the ordinary.  If it truly installs a hardware driver it would be located there.


Well then I don't think the Scrapland game you have on your computer has Starforce on it because from everything that I've read about Starforce is that it is definitely a driver.

BTW make sure under view in your device manager you have "show hidden devices" selected. (Another reason I don't trust it, why is it hidden?)


This is a quote from a subsim discussion thread on Starforce that I think does a pretty good job summing up what Starforce is.

http://207.44.164.159/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=29358&start=20

------------------------------------------
But it doesn't change the fact that without Starforce installed, the game won't *run*.

Starforce installs as a new device driver in your PC - which is why it's so insidious - but it's a device driver that games that require it...well, require to be present.

Like your display driver or audio driver or something. If a game is coded to need a 3d accelerator to run, and you don't have the 3d accelerator device driver installed, that's it - the game won't run. Same exact thing - Starforce just installs itself as another device driver the game needs to have in order to run.

Anyway, this is STILL all speculation - there is no definite proof yet that the US release of SHIII DOES have Starforce on it.
--------------------------------------------------------------


Quote
Once again, it sounds like this is very "mountain out of a molehill", nevermind that no one seems to truly know if a game has Starforce on it or not and weeks of debate goes on whether a game has it on it or not.  Anyone have any links to any information on Starforce whether it be horror stories or non-horror stories.  I'm just looking for info because I work in the IT industry and am just flabbergasted by what exactly Starforce is or what it does to your computer.


I'll leave it to someone else to give you more info on it because what upsets me the most about it is that it installs a driver that I don't want on my system and I am kind of paranoid about stuff installed on my system against my wishes. Also I am worried that this Starforce is just the beginning of a trend towards even more intrusive CP down the road. But that's just my point of view and I actually don't know if it slows down your computer or what, maybe someone else can fill you in on it.

Besides this Starforce thing is pretty much starting to turn into a war between 2 camps and I don't really want to get drawn into it. (Maybe I made a mistake starting this thread. slywink )

My personal choice is that I'm just going to not buy any starforce games but besides this thread I started I usually steer clear of Starforce debates. They seem to get more and more heated lately.. :/
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« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2005, 06:15:45 AM »

I'm not trying to get into an argument.  I genuinely want to understand what type of problems Starforce would create with a computer.  My argument in regards to them installing something without you knowing is that you are going to have adaware on your computer whether you want it or not (if you have IE...Firefox may be exempt).  Alexa or a tracking program are probably the most seen ad hits when you run Adaware.  You never asked for these places to track what you did on the site the software is on, but it does it anyway.  It just kind of comes with the internet territory.

I understand the whole right to privacy thing and agree with it, but what I'm getting at is that there are many other fish to fry outside of Starforce.  I just want to understand the hatred of it that goes beyond the obvious lack of asking you if you want it or not.

From what I garner, Starforce is a kind of dongle if you will.  There is still software today that you have to attach a dongle to your computer in order to use it (usually in a workplace environment).  It's an extra security device.  Instead of a physical dongle, you have a driver dongle in the form of Starforce.  They evidentally feel this gives better security to piracy than the old copy protection of old and can probably serve a wide range of products, which is why it stays as a driver.

I'm just throwing out an idea though.  And you're right, Scrapland must not have had it because I ran that Starforce remover and it didn't find anything.  In this forum when Scrapland went cheap many didn't pick it up because they thought it had Starforce on it.

Anyway, I'll do more digging on Starforce and try to understand all the sides on it.
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Dan Lorenzen
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« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2005, 06:37:16 AM »

Well for the pro starforce side you might want to start here (This is an interview with a Starforce dude who feels the force) slywink

http://www.firingsquad.com/features/starforce_interview/

BTW my apologies for implying in my reply that you wanted to start an agument about it.
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« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2005, 06:51:23 AM »

www.boycottstarforce.org used to be the best site for Starforce information and hatred.  It seems to be down for the time being, though.

It was actually run by Jeff Jones, a fellow who frequented the GG forums back in the day.
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SF
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2005, 07:17:11 AM »

Some of the reported problems with Starforce:

Slowed or disabled CD/DVD burning (plus more errors)

Disappearing Drives

Disabling Virtual Drive programs

Unable to play game with Virtual Drive programs installed

Lockups/CTD's

Note: I have not physically verified any of these problems myself.  Jeff Jones did do some timing tests on his computer that showed a marked slowdown in burning times with SF installed.

Additionally, there were reports based on SF promotional materials that it had "phone home" features available that would stealth scan system information and send it to the publisher.  However, no game has been found yet that implements such a "feature."
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« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2005, 02:58:49 PM »

wait, so they added sci-fi elements to this sub game?! WTF?!  :twisted:
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Dan Lorenzen
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« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2005, 06:57:41 PM »

Quote
If you wouldn't mind, and if you're going to get the game, could you report back here if the US version has starforce on it? I would hate to have started a rumor here that is wrong and maybe turned off people that were planning to buy it if it doesn't use starforce.

Or maybe I'll just browse more on SH3's website. It will be nice to know for sure one way or the other.


Eh, never mind on that. I've been browsing at subsim and it's pretty much been confirmed. The US version (all versions in fact it seems) definitely uses Starforce.

Bummer. frown
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« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2005, 05:41:29 AM »

it definitely has starforce.  you won't see the drivers though until your next reboot after playing.  it hasn't triggered my firewall asking permission to go online though.  there is an annoying "disk verification" thing that starts every time you play.
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« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2005, 06:30:36 AM »

You also have to view hidden devices under hardware manager. I found some today and had to delete them. Musta got it off a demo.
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« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2005, 04:52:37 PM »

And the lovely thing is that when you uninstall the game dear sweet Starforce stays behind.  That's the part that burns me.  Not only are we going to install driver-level software so you can play our game, we're not going to tell you we're installing it and when you uninstall your game Starforce won't be uninstalled.  You have to go to the Starforce website and download their Starforce Removal tool.

Sweet!   :roll:
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« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2005, 05:03:50 PM »

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download their Starforce Removal tool

I'm wondering if that is even legal...what about people who don't have a net connection?
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« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2005, 05:04:59 PM »

Quote from: "Knightshade Dragon"
Quote
download their Starforce Removal tool

I'm wondering if that is even legal...what about people who don't have a net connection?

Well, first off they wouldn't even know what Starforce is if they don't have a net connection slywink
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« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2005, 05:31:59 PM »

Somebody's gotta live under the rock. slywink
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« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2005, 06:01:15 PM »

Just my opinion but the "what if they don't have an internet connection" argument doesn't fly anymore. Its like blaming Disney when someone buys the latest Mickey Mouse DVD but doesn't have a DVD player.
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« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2005, 06:07:13 PM »

Quote from: "Daehawk"
You also have to view hidden devices under hardware manager. I found some today and had to delete them. Musta got it off a demo.
I'm sure you used the Starforce removal tool, but since manuallly deleting them can cause system instability, I wanted to clarify for anyone unsure.  Only remove the drivers with the removal tool.
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