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Author Topic: Seriously, what's up with the A.I. in DoA4?  (Read 1817 times)
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TheMissingLink
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« on: June 29, 2006, 12:30:19 PM »

Come on now.  I swear, sometimes, the computer pulls of a reversal 3-4 times a match.  On the easiest difficulty.  I'd say that 50% of my matches tonight, my very first attack was reversed.  

And don't get me started on Alpha-152.  Took me a good 30 matches the other night to finally beat it.  

I gave up tonight fighting it.  Didn't want to break my controller into a million pieces.

Why the decision to make the A.I. so incredibly hard?  And with DoA4, I wouldn't even say the A.I. is hard - it's cheap.  And it's brutal and nasty.  I don't see any real positives from making this kind of difficulty the default and lowest difficulty setting in the game.

Because I appreciate hard A.I. with fighting games.  Virtua Fighter 4: Evo has the hardest difficulty I've come across, without feeling cheap.  When I get beat in VF4, I've been outmatched and out-strategized.  And I change tactics, and I try other things for a different result...but in DoA4, it's just hard and cheap just to be hard and cheap, it feels like.

So, what the hell, Team Ninja?
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« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2006, 12:41:22 PM »

Quote from: "TheMissingLink"
Come on now.  I swear, sometimes, the computer pulls of a reversal 3-4 times a match.  On the easiest difficulty.  I'd say that 50% of my matches tonight, my very first attack was reversed.  

And don't get me started on Alpha-152.  Took me a good 30 matches the other night to finally beat it.  

I gave up tonight fighting it.  Didn't want to break my controller into a million pieces.

Why the decision to make the A.I. so incredibly hard?  And with DoA4, I wouldn't even say the A.I. is hard - it's cheap.  And it's brutal and nasty.  I don't see any real positives from making this kind of difficulty the default and lowest difficulty setting in the game.

Because I appreciate hard A.I. with fighting games.  Virtua Fighter 4: Evo has the hardest difficulty I've come across, without feeling cheap.  When I get beat in VF4, I've been outmatched and out-strategized.  And I change tactics, and I try other things for a different result...but in DoA4, it's just hard and cheap just to be hard and cheap, it feels like.

So, what the hell, Team Ninja?


You are talking about the dev team that made Ninja Gaiden. I forget the lead producers name, but he is on record saying he likes to make his games very hard and difficult
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« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2006, 12:54:21 PM »

Quote from: "TheMissingLink"
Because I appreciate hard A.I. with fighting games.  Virtua Fighter 4: Evo has the hardest difficulty I've come across, without feeling cheap.  When I get beat in VF4, I've been outmatched and out-strategized.  And I change tactics, and I try other things for a different result...but in DoA4, it's just hard and cheap just to be hard and cheap, it feels like.?

This is why that VF4 is the best fighting game out there, period (IMHO). The AI actually plays fair. Something that's a completely unheard of in fighting games now.

This is also why I've never been interested in the DoA series - the AI cheats, and the developers admit it.
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« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2006, 01:59:27 PM »

the problem with the doa4 ai is the same as the disparate difficulty levels between NG and NG:B -- people were bitching that the game wasn't hard enough.  there were people griping that 'very hard' ai on doa wasn't hard enough, so the leader of team ninja (whose name i've forgotten -- he's an arrogant, egotistical asshole of a genius) took offense and pretty much said 'HAH! is it hard enough NOW, mf?!'

fighting alpha just takes getting used to.  after a while, you'll start to see the patterns in her combos and know from the first one or two moves where you'll be able to counter her.  these days, i counter her several times in each match, including with those tricky midair kicks.  the real bitch about the fights with alpha is the way team ninja decided it 'wouldn't be fun' unless they made us fight her on a stage where pretty much everything explodes (the time attack stage; some characters don't have to fight her there in the story mode).

and i still enjoy doa, even with the cheap ai, because it forces me to get better with my fave characters.  for instance, i never really used hayabusa's punch combos before, but now i need to, since there are some great combos off his punches now that can help you mix things up (and i definitely got good at teleporting around the screen XD).  but ayane is still my fave, and i can get totally creamed on the first stage, but beat alpha with a perfect in the same run (no fooling).
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« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2006, 05:13:45 PM »

DOA4 is really a tough game for me.  I'm not sure why Team Ninja decided that since they were going to make the game harder at the top end, they would take out the easy mode.

I've put a lot of hours into the game and still have times when the first or second stage will kick my butt.  On the other hand I have entire runs that I just walk over the ai.

You can really tell the difference when you get a perfect round (or two) against it.  The difficulty suddenly takes a nice big jump after that.

Fun game, wouldn't mind getting some matches in against GT/OO people sometime.
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Thin_J
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« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2006, 09:14:45 PM »

I'm pretty erratic on my success with the AI on this game as well. I either run through the game with barely a lost round or I find myself stuck on someone fighting them over and over again until I finally win, and then I just don't want to play anymore.

I would enjoy DOA online more if it weren't for the horrible interface they designed for playing the game on live. I do not want to run around in candy land looking like a bad anime character for five minutes before a game starts. No thanks.

*sigh*

The whole thing makes me really really miss DOA3, or even DOAUltimate. I still really enjoy it most of the time though. Singleplayer anyway.
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TheMissingLink
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« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2006, 09:36:54 PM »

Yeah, online's a bit weird...the whole run-around-as-your-avatar thing is cute.  Well, I picked the kitty, so it's super cute.  But it seems like all that was being played last night was winner-stays, one-round matches.  That's sort of lame.  You get to play for 10 seconds, then if you lose, you wait a couple minutes.
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« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2006, 10:49:52 PM »

I get my ass whupped in DOA4 and I don't feel like devoting endless hours of time to it.  

  DOA4
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WinoMcCougarstein
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« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2006, 10:50:44 PM »

I dont know about the AI, but I had a great time playing four player tag games!
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TheMissingLink
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« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2006, 11:33:31 PM »

Quote from: "GatorFavre"
I dont know about the AI, but I had a great time playing four player tag games!


Oh, definitely, that was a fun time.  What with the constant tagging, totally whacked out moves, fun arenas to play in.  I wish we could play on some of the other levels that have like, environmental dangers, breakable shit, but the arena type levels are cool.

Would love to get some people together for some GT fighting action.  Except I work this weekend frown
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« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2006, 01:44:49 AM »

Quote from: "TheMissingLink"
bitches about the AI and life in general...


That's the reason I didn't buy the game.  I wanted to, but it's universally panned for the AI cheese.  Just didn't sound like much fun to me.  A lot of the presentation and Live stuff sounds swell, but I know playing fighters against humans will be just as humiliating.
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TheMissingLink
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« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2006, 02:15:06 AM »

Quote from: "stiffler"
Quote from: "TheMissingLink"
bitches about the AI and life in general...


That's the reason I didn't buy the game.  I wanted to, but it's universally panned for the AI cheese.  Just didn't sound like much fun to me.  A lot of the presentation and Live stuff sounds swell, but I know playing fighters against humans will be just as humiliating.


Well, you can tell the level of the players online via their online grade.  Although, I fought a D grade player last night who absolutely dominated me, so yeah!
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Fellow
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« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2006, 06:17:37 AM »

I hate Alpha-152.

A LOT.
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Victoria Raverna
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« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2006, 08:04:48 AM »

Since I bought my XBOX 360, I haven't brought it home at all. It is in my office so that I can play DOA4 with co-workers during our lunch break or after office hours.smile

Playing against human players are fun. I only play against computer to unlock costumes.
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Victoria Raverna
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« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2006, 08:06:48 AM »

Quote from: "Fellow"
I hate Alpha-152.

A LOT.


For a bad player like me, Alpha-152 is all about luck. Sometime she keep using the long and deadly combo which mean defeat to me, but sometime she doesn't use those "cheating" combo and I can manage a win.

Some characters also have easier time against Alpha-152 than the others or maybe I'm just better with some characters.
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TheMissingLink
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« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2006, 09:13:27 AM »

Wow.  Beat Alpha-152 twice tonight.  Both times not needing many rounds to do it.  Running attacks were quite successful...tonight, anyway biggrin

Am I trying to play online at bad times, or are there hardly any tournaments or anything other than winner-stays?  I'm fine with winner stays...if it weren't just one round then it's over.  And if it doesn't have more than like, 4 players.

And the other night it asked me if I wanted to wipe my record...I wasn't entirely sure I was being asked, but shit, I wiped it.  There go those two wins DAMN!
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Austin
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« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2006, 12:36:20 PM »

I picked up Tekken 5 last week and it's pretty stupid-hard on easy.  I did beat the final guy with Lei on the second try, but most of the other characters so far, it's taken me 15-25 attempts I think.  I'm not a total Tekken noob and this is on easy.  I wonder if I could even beat him on normal.
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TheMissingLink
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« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2006, 12:40:07 PM »

La Mariposa beat Alpha-152 in a couple tries tonight!  I was amazed.  Shocked, even.

Why can't I stop playing this game?  I mean, for every frustrating moment (didn't have many tonight...Bayman, however, is a serious pain in the ass) a really cool moment happens in a fight.

Dead or Alive 4 does many things right.  I LOVE the multi-tiered arenas.  I love the traffic (car and...raptor...yeah...).  It has a wonderful cast of characters which are all interesting in their own way(well, with the exception of Leon and f'n Bayman).  It offers characters with different fighting styles.

But it really seems the only way to be successful at DoA4 is to play offensively.  That's what I've seen so far, anyway.
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« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2006, 06:58:15 PM »

To an extent that's true.  However, someone who is really good at counters will explain why all offensive isn't necessarily the be-all end-all.

I ,unfortunately, am not terribly good at counters, so I get horribly mauled at times by a friend of mine who is good at them.

The game does have its hooks in me.  Even though I can go for long periods without playing it, I still eventually come back and put more time into it.
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« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2006, 07:05:00 PM »

The AI wouldn't be so bad if it didn't have Jedi-sense counters.  The ridiculous AI ability of mind-reading counters was the only thing that really drove me nuts.  Considering there are more counter options now for the human opponent to manage, seeing the AI pull off first move counters and strings of counters wreaks of cheap.  Aside from the counter nuttiness, I found the AI to be hard, but not insane (except for that Alpha-152 grrr!).
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« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2006, 07:06:26 PM »

I'm not that good at the game, but I played a lot against other players which have average skills (nothing close to level of high rating players on Live)  and so far seem like the best way to win is to adapt to each player's style and predict what they're going to do based on what they have been doing before.
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« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2006, 05:22:35 PM »

Quote from: "Austin"
I picked up Tekken 5 last week and it's pretty stupid-hard on easy.  I did beat the final guy with Lei on the second try, but most of the other characters so far, it's taken me 15-25 attempts I think.  I'm not a total Tekken noob and this is on easy.  I wonder if I could even beat him on normal.


i AM a tekken fan, and tekken 5 was stupid-hard for me.  XD  the only one i consistently kicked any ass with was hwaorang, and even then i'd have troubles with jinpachi (final boss, who sucks mighty ass....).


Quote from: "Jarrodhk"
However, someone who is really good at counters will explain why all offensive isn't necessarily the be-all and end-all.


i rarely beat alpha in an offensive fight.  in fact, i've only successfully done it with the very fastest characters -- Kasumi, whose speed is very close to Alpha's, and Jann Lee, who is the fastest character in the game (it's true! Christy and Kasumi and Hayabusa are close behind on speed, but, to my experience from either side of the fight, Jann Lee has the fastest moves).  with any other character, i find her disgustingly difficult to beat unless i go defensive.  it's all about waiting for her to commit to a combo, countering it on the first or second move, and possibly getting a follow-up on her.  also, as far as i can tell, all her throws are counter-style throws, which can't be escaped (and look exactly like her counters), and they all hurt like hell if you're in the time-attack arena, where the floor explodes.

also, on a more general note, if i'm in a good defensive groove, i'm rarely beaten.  i just counter everything that comes at me, until that one time when i think my opponent will throw me, then i throw-escape.  it's not impossible to get a long string of counters; you just have to know your opponent, and know the characters' moves.  if you know where most of the combos begin (lots of characters start out high), you have a chance of catching the very fist move of a combo a lot of the time.  if you know where the combos end (they end mid a vast majority of the time), you can block until you see your opening.  DOA isn't a series where knowing the character YOU'RE playing is the way to go -- the key is knowing the character your OPPONENT is playing. e.g. i can play nearly any character and still get the same number of counters, and it's hard as hell to beat me using one of my three faves (Ayane, Hayabusa, and Jann Lee) against me. you have to know the characters at least as well as i do, wherein lies the true complexity of the game (and the reason the AI is so annoying -- it occasionally plays dumb, which makes it harder to read), because not everyone will be an expert on every character, and the characters that are less-known to a player will be his or her weakness.
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