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Author Topic: Saddle up! The Red Dead Redemption impressions thread.  (Read 46603 times)
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TiLT
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« Reply #1200 on: June 22, 2010, 06:02:08 PM »

Quote from: MaxSteele on June 22, 2010, 05:52:01 PM

There is no way six new missions are set up in the game along with all of the new challenges for only 12 megabytes of space.

Why not? I don't know much about this DLC, but does it include new voiceovers? New music? If it does, these things were probably ready way before the code itself, so they could put them on the disc before the game's release even if the missions themselves weren't finished. If not, there's no reason why it shouldn't take up only 12 MB. Code doesn't take up a lot of space, even in the most complex of games.
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« Reply #1201 on: June 22, 2010, 06:26:10 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on June 22, 2010, 06:02:08 PM

Quote from: MaxSteele on June 22, 2010, 05:52:01 PM

There is no way six new missions are set up in the game along with all of the new challenges for only 12 megabytes of space.

Why not? I don't know much about this DLC, but does it include new voiceovers? New music? If it does, these things were probably ready way before the code itself, so they could put them on the disc before the game's release even if the missions themselves weren't finished. If not, there's no reason why it shouldn't take up only 12 MB. Code doesn't take up a lot of space, even in the most complex of games.


if it's just re-scripting of assets there is no reason at all it should be any bigger.  Even if it was already on disc, I have no problem with that.
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« Reply #1202 on: June 22, 2010, 06:33:03 PM »

I want the skin it to win it challenge. Tongue
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« Reply #1203 on: June 22, 2010, 06:34:29 PM »

Quote from: Harkonis on June 22, 2010, 06:26:10 PM

Quote from: TiLT on June 22, 2010, 06:02:08 PM

Quote from: MaxSteele on June 22, 2010, 05:52:01 PM

There is no way six new missions are set up in the game along with all of the new challenges for only 12 megabytes of space.

Why not? I don't know much about this DLC, but does it include new voiceovers? New music? If it does, these things were probably ready way before the code itself, so they could put them on the disc before the game's release even if the missions themselves weren't finished. If not, there's no reason why it shouldn't take up only 12 MB. Code doesn't take up a lot of space, even in the most complex of games.


if it's just re-scripting of assets there is no reason at all it should be any bigger.  Even if it was already on disc, I have no problem with that.

I know code can be small, but I personally believe there's more to this than 12 megs of space to make it all happen.  New co-op mode available, the net coding used, etc...  

I have a problem when a company touts "Free DLC!  We're giving you more content for no extra cost!" and then it's already programmed and on the disc.  

Content that has already been created but is time-locked to look like they're giving you something extra.  It leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
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« Reply #1204 on: June 22, 2010, 06:34:39 PM »

Quote from: Harkonis on June 22, 2010, 06:26:10 PM

Quote from: TiLT on June 22, 2010, 06:02:08 PM

Quote from: MaxSteele on June 22, 2010, 05:52:01 PM

There is no way six new missions are set up in the game along with all of the new challenges for only 12 megabytes of space.

Why not? I don't know much about this DLC, but does it include new voiceovers? New music? If it does, these things were probably ready way before the code itself, so they could put them on the disc before the game's release even if the missions themselves weren't finished. If not, there's no reason why it shouldn't take up only 12 MB. Code doesn't take up a lot of space, even in the most complex of games.


if it's just re-scripting of assets there is no reason at all it should be any bigger.  Even if it was already on disc, I have no problem with that.

A lot of people do.

I'm not one of them, but it's a big issue.

Just for reference, though, The Lost and Damned was 2 GB.
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« Reply #1205 on: June 22, 2010, 06:47:12 PM »

Quote from: MaxSteele on June 22, 2010, 06:34:29 PM

I know code can be small, but I personally believe there's more to this than 12 megs of space to make it all happen.  New co-op mode available,

Code. Takes no space worth mentioning.

Quote
the net coding used, etc...  

Still code. You'd need to code a pretty damn huge and complex game to pass 12 MB in compiled code, FYI.

Quote
I have a problem when a company touts "Free DLC!  We're giving you more content for no extra cost!" and then it's already programmed and on the disc.  

Voiceovers, music and art may already be on the disc. That has nothing to do with programming. Code is small and easily distributable.

Quote
Content that has already been created but is time-locked to look like they're giving you something extra.  It leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

We have no basis upon which to make the claims you're making. Unless they somehow reveal their entire development schedule you'd probably not be satisfied with any DLC unless it's at least several hundred MB in size, and even if the art assets were ready long before the code. You're digging yourself into a hole you'll never be able to leave in a satisfied way.
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« Reply #1206 on: June 22, 2010, 06:58:40 PM »

Quote from: TiLT

We have no basis upon which to make the claims you're making. Unless they somehow reveal their entire development schedule you'd probably not be satisfied with any DLC unless it's at least several hundred MB in size, and even if the art assets were ready long before the code. You're digging yourself into a hole you'll never be able to leave in a satisfied way.


I think the 'digging myself into a hole' is a bit over-the-top.  Rockstar certainly wouldn't be the first developer to have game content created and on the disc, then unlock it after the game's release.  I don't think it's an invalid question to bring up.  I didn't pose it as a question originally, and I'll apologize for that.  DLC locked on-disc is a topic that really annoys me, so I did come across strong on that.

I don't need their entire development schedule revealed.  I will say I have not played the DLC yet, so I do not know everything they added.  I am speculating on the depth and complexity of these missions based on what the co-op missions were like in GTA IV.

I'll find out tonight when I play it.

EDIT:

Yeah, I've thought about it more, and I was hasty in the first post I made.  It's a hot-button issue for me, and any time I see a situation that could point toward on-disc content unlocked, I get some rage happening.

I'm now switching to "I hope this wasn't just unlocked on the disc", and I'll reserve any further opinion on it until after I've played the co-op missions.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2010, 07:11:35 PM by MaxSteele » Logged
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« Reply #1207 on: June 22, 2010, 07:20:17 PM »

Wil Wheaton has talked about how he did voice work in Red Dead Redemption, but so far I have been unable to find anywhere that tells what voice work he did in the game.

Anyone know?
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« Reply #1208 on: June 22, 2010, 07:34:54 PM »

Quote from: MaxSteele on June 22, 2010, 07:20:17 PM

Wil Wheaton has talked about how he did voice work in Red Dead Redemption, but so far I have been unable to find anywhere that tells what voice work he did in the game.

Anyone know?

maybe...  ninja
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« Reply #1209 on: June 22, 2010, 07:38:02 PM »

Quote from: Isgrimnur on June 22, 2010, 07:34:54 PM

Quote from: MaxSteele on June 22, 2010, 07:20:17 PM

Wil Wheaton has talked about how he did voice work in Red Dead Redemption, but so far I have been unable to find anywhere that tells what voice work he did in the game.

Anyone know?

maybe...  ninja

Geeeez.  I looked all over, including his damn blog, and he drops one little mention on his twitter page.  Grrrr.

Thanks for finding that. smile
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« Reply #1210 on: June 22, 2010, 07:38:12 PM »

Quote from: MaxSteele on June 22, 2010, 07:20:17 PM

Wil Wheaton has talked about how he did voice work in Red Dead Redemption, but so far I have been unable to find anywhere that tells what voice work he did in the game.

Anyone know?

Spoiler for Hiden:
I'd guess Jack, given the age and the "Work, ya damned nag" whilst riding. He learned that while working on set with Gates McFadden. slywink

However, I guess you could find the real answer in the fine print. biggrin
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« Reply #1211 on: June 22, 2010, 07:58:09 PM »

Quote from: Purge on June 22, 2010, 07:38:12 PM

Quote from: MaxSteele on June 22, 2010, 07:20:17 PM

Wil Wheaton has talked about how he did voice work in Red Dead Redemption, but so far I have been unable to find anywhere that tells what voice work he did in the game.

Anyone know?

Spoiler for Hiden:
I'd guess Jack, given the age and the "Work, ya damned nag" whilst riding. He learned that while working on set with Gates McFadden. slywink

However, I guess you could find the real answer in the fine print. biggrin

At first I thought that was who he voiced, until I saw in the credits that it was someone else.

I watched all the credits, checked the IMDB credits, looked at the credits on the manual....  Not a single mention of Wil.  Only that one twitter post he made June 6th gives any indication what voice work he did.
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« Reply #1212 on: June 22, 2010, 08:13:45 PM »

Glad I could help.  I hadn't even checked Twitter when I was it.  He has a plug-in on his site that gives the last few tweets and I saw it there while reading his blog entry.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2010, 08:17:54 PM by Isgrimnur » Logged

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« Reply #1213 on: June 22, 2010, 08:15:02 PM »

Quote from: MaxSteele on June 22, 2010, 06:58:40 PM

Quote from: TiLT

We have no basis upon which to make the claims you're making. Unless they somehow reveal their entire development schedule you'd probably not be satisfied with any DLC unless it's at least several hundred MB in size, and even if the art assets were ready long before the code. You're digging yourself into a hole you'll never be able to leave in a satisfied way.


I think the 'digging myself into a hole' is a bit over-the-top.  Rockstar certainly wouldn't be the first developer to have game content created and on the disc, then unlock it after the game's release.  I don't think it's an invalid question to bring up.  I didn't pose it as a question originally, and I'll apologize for that.  DLC locked on-disc is a topic that really annoys me, so I did come across strong on that.

I don't need their entire development schedule revealed.  I will say I have not played the DLC yet, so I do not know everything they added.  I am speculating on the depth and complexity of these missions based on what the co-op missions were like in GTA IV.

I'll find out tonight when I play it.

EDIT:

Yeah, I've thought about it more, and I was hasty in the first post I made.  It's a hot-button issue for me, and any time I see a situation that could point toward on-disc content unlocked, I get some rage happening.

I'm now switching to "I hope this wasn't just unlocked on the disc", and I'll reserve any further opinion on it until after I've played the co-op missions.

If it was done this way, its not a new school of though - back in the old days, where IBM mainframes were big and expensive, if you ordered an upgrade, a technician would come out, open the mainframe and move a cable from on position to another, "upgrading" the mainframe..
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« Reply #1214 on: June 22, 2010, 08:21:30 PM »

I can't believe this brand of outrage extends to content you don't even have to pay for.
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« Reply #1215 on: June 22, 2010, 08:26:40 PM »

Quote from: wonderpug on June 22, 2010, 08:21:30 PM

I can't believe this brand of outrage extends to content you don't even have to pay for.

+1 to this. It's not even a code like it was with bc2.
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« Reply #1216 on: June 22, 2010, 08:30:23 PM »

Quote from: wonderpug on June 22, 2010, 08:21:30 PM

I can't believe this brand outrage extends to content you don't even have to pay for.

It has nothing to do with whether or not they charge money.

It has to do with saying:  "Hey look!  We're giving you this DLC for free!", but then it turns out it was on the disc the whole time.  I don't like that marketing tactic.  That makes it look like they value the consumer so much that they're giving this extra content away at no additional charge.  But they're not, because it already existed and should have just been available at launch.

No, there isn't anything which shows this to be the case yet, so I'll need to play it tonight and see.
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« Reply #1217 on: June 22, 2010, 09:20:30 PM »

DirecTV satellites beam tv shows to my roof 24 hours a day. If I find a dish cheap on craigslist am I entitled to watch all their content for free since it's already being delivered to me?

I can get a free demo of Photoshop or Sony Vegas movie editing software.  The demo copy has all the software code that's in the full version.  Should I be outraged that I need to pay them money just to toggle a yes/no switch to let me use the software past 30 days?
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« Reply #1218 on: June 22, 2010, 09:42:57 PM »

Quote from: wonderpug on June 22, 2010, 09:20:30 PM

DirecTV satellites beam tv shows to my roof 24 hours a day. If I find a dish cheap on craigslist am I entitled to watch all their content for free since it's already being delivered to me?

I can get a free demo of Photoshop or Sony Vegas movie editing software.  The demo copy has all the software code that's in the full version.  Should I be outraged that I need to pay them money just to toggle a yes/no switch to let me use the software past 30 days?

These comparisons are not valid to this situation.

There is a service charge associated with DirecTV.  The dish only allows you to get the signal, but you must pay to get the content they deliver.  It is never marketed that you only need a satellite dish and can receive their content without paying for it.

The demo of Photoshop you received for free.  You didn't pay anything for it, and you know it is limited.  If you then want the full version, you pay for the full version, which unlocks from the content you already have.

I bought Red Dead Redemption at the full retail price of $60.  That is for the full game which I receive on the game disc.  If there is content available at the time of purchase on the disc, but locked down so they can seem altruistic by giving me "something for nothing" later on, that is deceitful. 

If the content exists on the disc and you're going to give it to me for free eventually, why not give it to me at the time of release?  You don't want to, because you want to make it seem like you're being a great company and giving me something extra for no additional charge.  You didn't give me anything extra if it already existed on the disc in the first place.  It's a marketing tactic I do not appreciate.
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« Reply #1219 on: June 22, 2010, 09:53:07 PM »

Well it's fine if you don't like it and voice your opinion.

But don't be upset if you're in a miniscule minority... most people don't care because it's really not a big deal.  So I hope they keep releasing free content.
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« Reply #1220 on: June 22, 2010, 09:54:58 PM »

You got what they advertised: most of the game up front: co-op missions a month later. What difference is it to you if it was on the disc with a daily countdown-to-coop timer, on disc with a free unlock code, on R* hard drives gathering dust till download day, or completely programmed from scratch start to finish these past four weeks?
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« Reply #1221 on: June 22, 2010, 10:05:40 PM »

Quote from: wonderpug on June 22, 2010, 09:54:58 PM

You got what they advertised: most of the game up front: co-op missions a month later. What difference is it to you if it was on the disc with a daily countdown-to-coop timer, on disc with a free unlock code, on R* hard drives gathering dust till download day, or completely programmed from scratch start to finish these past four weeks?

I'll respond once more because I don't think my main idea is getting across....

I don't like it when companies hold back created content and then market it to make it seem like they're giving the consumer more for 'no additional charge'.  That's it.  That's my one issue.

If that didn't happen here, then there's no issue.  But it has happened before with other companies, and it's not a good practice.
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« Reply #1222 on: June 22, 2010, 10:28:09 PM »

How would you ever know if this was "held back content" or not?  What if they couldn't get the gameplay balanced in time for release, plus the art department couldn't finish a hat in time?  The DLC could have 2MB of necessary balancing tweaks plus a 10MB sombrero. What if instead of trying to make it seem like you're getting more for a fake 'at no additional charge,' they knew how awesome War for Cybertron co-op would be and wanted a competing product to launch today? 
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« Reply #1223 on: June 22, 2010, 10:37:59 PM »

Quote from: wonderpug on June 22, 2010, 10:28:09 PM

How would you ever know if this was "held back content" or not?  What if they couldn't get the gameplay balanced in time for release, plus the art department couldn't finish a hat in time?  The DLC could have 2MB of necessary balancing tweaks plus a 10MB sombrero. What if instead of trying to make it seem like you're getting more for a fake 'at no additional charge,' they knew how awesome War for Cybertron co-op would be and wanted a competing product to launch today? 

In most cases, you wouldn't know. 

In the case of uncompleted content at release, I would want the company to tell me they have more content coming but it's not complete yet, and they will give it at no additional charge once it is.

Assassin's Creed 2 almost did this when they left two memory fragments out of the final game because they weren't finished.  However, they charged for them once they released them.  That's another topic though.  smile

When a company says, "We have all new content after the game launches and guess what?  We're not going to charge you a dime for it!  Aren't we awesome?" when in reality it was half-finished, or there already?  No, you're not awesome.
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« Reply #1224 on: June 23, 2010, 01:21:05 AM »

Horray - there's a glitch with the new DLC that makes experience points obsolete.

Apparently there's a way to go into a hideout and after completing it, when you select "replay", it gives you 400 experience.  You can repeat this over and over again until you have as much experience as you'd like.
 icon_neutral

Nice way to ruin that aspect of online play.
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« Reply #1225 on: June 23, 2010, 01:42:17 AM »

Signed in to play, couldn't ever get into a MP game to check out the new DLC, much less find anyone playing it on my friends list.  It appears that Transformers has everyone. 

I enjoyed the SP game a lot, and I'm sure I'll enjoy the (currently) $32.50 trade in on Amazon.  It was fun while it lasted.
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« Reply #1226 on: June 23, 2010, 02:24:07 AM »

Quote from: Isgrimnur on June 23, 2010, 01:42:17 AM

Signed in to play, couldn't ever get into a MP game to check out the new DLC, much less find anyone playing it on my friends list.  It appears that Transformers has everyone. 

I enjoyed the SP game a lot, and I'm sure I'll enjoy the (currently) $32.50 trade in on Amazon.  It was fun while it lasted.

Probably because everyone's bogging down the servers from XP glitching.
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« Reply #1227 on: June 23, 2010, 02:52:16 AM »

Quote from: wonderpug on June 22, 2010, 09:54:58 PM

You got what they advertised: most of the game up front: co-op missions a month later. What difference is it to you if it was on the disc with a daily countdown-to-coop timer, on disc with a free unlock code, on R* hard drives gathering dust till download day, or completely programmed from scratch start to finish these past four weeks?

And its free
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« Reply #1228 on: June 23, 2010, 04:09:12 AM »

Quote from: MaxSteele on June 22, 2010, 10:37:59 PM

Quote from: wonderpug on June 22, 2010, 10:28:09 PM

How would you ever know if this was "held back content" or not?  What if they couldn't get the gameplay balanced in time for release, plus the art department couldn't finish a hat in time?  The DLC could have 2MB of necessary balancing tweaks plus a 10MB sombrero. What if instead of trying to make it seem like you're getting more for a fake 'at no additional charge,' they knew how awesome War for Cybertron co-op would be and wanted a competing product to launch today?  

In most cases, you wouldn't know.  

In the case of uncompleted content at release, I would want the company to tell me they have more content coming but it's not complete yet, and they will give it at no additional charge once it is.

Assassin's Creed 2 almost did this when they left two memory fragments out of the final game because they weren't finished.  However, they charged for them once they released them.  That's another topic though.  smile

When a company says, "We have all new content after the game launches and guess what?  We're not going to charge you a dime for it!  Aren't we awesome?" when in reality it was half-finished, or there already?  No, you're not awesome.

How is that not awesome?

They put the completed game out instead of making you wait, promised they'd release add-on content, put some of it on the disc to save download times and hard drive space, delivered the content as promised, and it was free.

How is that not awesome?

Seriously, what do you want Rockstar to do?  Come to your house and bake you a cake?

They promised free stuff.  You got free stuff.  And you could have had nothing.

How is that not awesome?
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« Reply #1229 on: June 23, 2010, 04:15:03 AM »

I bet the cake batter would be made of lies, the icing out of betrayal and the ice cream full of deceit.
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« Reply #1230 on: June 23, 2010, 06:16:04 AM »

Quote from: Bullwinkle on June 23, 2010, 04:09:12 AM

Quote from: MaxSteele on June 22, 2010, 10:37:59 PM

Quote from: wonderpug on June 22, 2010, 10:28:09 PM

How would you ever know if this was "held back content" or not?  What if they couldn't get the gameplay balanced in time for release, plus the art department couldn't finish a hat in time?  The DLC could have 2MB of necessary balancing tweaks plus a 10MB sombrero. What if instead of trying to make it seem like you're getting more for a fake 'at no additional charge,' they knew how awesome War for Cybertron co-op would be and wanted a competing product to launch today?  

In most cases, you wouldn't know.  

In the case of uncompleted content at release, I would want the company to tell me they have more content coming but it's not complete yet, and they will give it at no additional charge once it is.

Assassin's Creed 2 almost did this when they left two memory fragments out of the final game because they weren't finished.  However, they charged for them once they released them.  That's another topic though.  smile

When a company says, "We have all new content after the game launches and guess what?  We're not going to charge you a dime for it!  Aren't we awesome?" when in reality it was half-finished, or there already?  No, you're not awesome.

How is that not awesome?

They put the completed game out instead of making you wait, promised they'd release add-on content, put some of it on the disc to save download times and hard drive space, delivered the content as promised, and it was free.

How is that not awesome?

Seriously, what do you want Rockstar to do?  Come to your house and bake you a cake?

They promised free stuff.  You got free stuff.  And you could have had nothing.

How is that not awesome?

One more time for the cheap seats:

I have a problem with withholding content to make it look like they're giving something for nothing.  I have no problem with getting free content.  It's the concept of pretending to be nice to consumers and give them free content, when it should have been part of the full game I paid for at the time I bought it.

If they didn't do that, then there isn't a problem.
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« Reply #1231 on: June 23, 2010, 06:43:20 AM »

Why should it have been part of the full game? How can you judge that? Do you feel cheated by the game you bought?
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« Reply #1232 on: June 23, 2010, 07:23:31 AM »

Quote from: Razgon on June 23, 2010, 06:43:20 AM

Why should it have been part of the full game? How can you judge that? Do you feel cheated by the game you bought?


No, I don't feel cheated by the game.  I love the game.  I've spent the past 4 hours playing.

This has nothing to do with the game or the enjoyment of it.  It has to do with a company purposefully withholding content and then presenting it after a game's release as "DLC" that's free, like they're doing the consumer a favor or giving them a great deal.  It's that concept.  That's all.

And I'll say it one more time - I don't even know that Rockstar did this with the latest DLC.  I was never even able to play it tonight, because I couldn't get into online at all.  If they didn't, then it's not an issue with Rockstar.

We really need to move on from this topic, because none of the responses you guys are having are addressing my issue, and in fact, I'm not looking for someone to address it.  This is just how I feel about this particular business practice.
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wonderpug
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« Reply #1233 on: June 23, 2010, 01:04:55 PM »

Schrödinger's DLC: simultaneously awesome and repulsive.
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Harkonis
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« Reply #1234 on: June 23, 2010, 01:40:22 PM »

it's not them pretending to be nice, it is them being nice.  They didn't have to release any co-op at all.  People are getting crazy with their sense of entitlement these days.
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« Reply #1235 on: June 23, 2010, 02:18:35 PM »

here's a trailer for the DLC.

I bet it was inside the cake the whole time.
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Isgrimnur
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« Reply #1236 on: June 23, 2010, 02:42:43 PM »

Quote from: wonderpug on June 23, 2010, 01:04:55 PM

Schrödinger's DLC: simultaneously awesome and repulsive.
icon_biggrin
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MaxSteele
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« Reply #1237 on: June 23, 2010, 02:44:22 PM »

Has anyone actually had a chance to try the DLC?  I couldn't get into online at all last night.
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« Reply #1238 on: June 23, 2010, 04:28:34 PM »

I did not.

Also, I understand and support Max's concept.

The business practice that Max is concerned with (NOT Rockstar, per se, but the POSSIBILITY) is similar to the 486 SX vs DX chip fiasco - the math coprocessor was built and intended for the product, but actually destroyed on the SX chips to create a lower entry model.

Consider that Co-op was always intended for the game.
Then consider that had already completed it, before the gold copy was out.
Now instead of allowing people to play the co-op out of the box, they instead decided to market a feature that was always supposed to be there.

There are only several insidious advantages to this in Rockstar's case for the coop though:

1) There is a kickback from MS / Sony to get online content up on the marketplace for AAA titles.
2) They have their own Socialclub agenda to push users online to get everything the game has to offer.
3) Garnering good press for giving away free stuff... Look how famous "Horse Armor" is to see an inversion of the positive press angle.

Here's the other side (once again, this is only in RDR's case)

1) The Co-op missions were planned, but due to deadline targets, they felt/couldn't get it done before going gold (master copy cut for distribution).
2) Perhaps there were challenges with multi-platform, so they opted instead to ship lowest common denominator, and allow developers to fix what was wrong.
3) The co-op aspect of the mission isn't the important thing, they just had time to build a cool mission pack since gold copy using their own hooks and API's.

I'm with the crowd here in shaving with Occam, and I believe Rockstar falls in the second grouping on this particular DLC.

That being said, however, too often we have games that aren't complete (KOTOR2, for example). Had they have released a DLC that "Fixed" the ending, and cost consumers in the process? This would have been a flame war. Tongue

I want the Skin it to Win it. Anyone have any news on that front?
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MaxSteele
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« Reply #1239 on: June 23, 2010, 04:34:13 PM »

Alright, I finally got in to a game this morning.

Each mission has voice over and cut scenes at the beginning and end of it.  Looks like you can skip it if all players decide to skip it, which is nice.

Before each mission starts, you choose a "loadout" for your character.  Then once that's done, the mission is selected.  I haven't quite figured out how the mission is selected yet.  Probably by the chosen "leader" of the co-op party.

I did the Herding and the Rafting missions.  Great fun in both of them.  You really need to work together, or everyone will die.

I'll be playing a lot more of this probably tonight, but so far it's a great co-op addition to an already stellar game.
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