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Author Topic: Rocksmith!  (Read 8306 times)
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Hetz
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« Reply #40 on: October 24, 2011, 12:38:03 AM »

Quote from: disarm on October 23, 2011, 09:46:48 PM

Another update...

As suspected, switching to optical from the 360 doesn't make any difference at all in the lag, so I've placed my order through Monoprice for an RCA/TOSLINK Audio Adapter that will give me analog audio outputs from my 360-S.  I will then be able to pass analog audio from the 360 to my receiver, which should take care of the lag issues.  I've also played around with my receiver a little more, and it looks like I should be able to keep both the analog audio and HDMI connections in place all the time...no switching wires, but I will have to bring up the receiver menu and manually specify to use analog audio whenever I'm playing Rocksmith.  Fortunately, that's something that takes only a few seconds.  Hopefully this will solve the problem...

That sucks....sorry to hear that it didn't help the lag any. I am using HDMI for the video, then the official MS optical audio adapter for my audio. I don't have any noticeable lag at all.
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« Reply #41 on: October 24, 2011, 01:03:58 AM »

Here is the poster they included with the game to show audio setups, I am using the "best" one with the MS audio adapter:

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« Reply #42 on: October 24, 2011, 01:45:34 AM »

I guess, but it still sucks.
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« Reply #43 on: October 24, 2011, 01:51:44 AM »

Quote from: Devil on October 23, 2011, 11:15:50 PM

This is shitty, stupid and Nintendo-Like.

Here's a game that came out last week that wants me to use tech that I've left behind for 10 years, re-arrange my audio system and buy adapters to get it to work right.

Unacceptable.

If the game knowingly was released with a problem using HDMI, include all adapters to bring your system back to 1996, and tell people with HDMI not to buy it.

I'm pissed.

The catch with this problem is that it really isn't Ubisoft's fault.  The audio lag occurs because of the time delay present when any external digital audio decoder (receiver, TV, etc) processes your console's digital audio output.  This delay happens all the time (with sources other than Rocksmith) and is why modern receivers have an A/V sync adjustment, but it's not usually noticeable in other situations because you're not paying so much attention.  If you play RB3, you can notice the same audio lag when you freestyle on the drums (as in the fill sections), but it doesn't affect gameplay in that case because your drum hits are still registered on time and the recorded track plays appropriately...lag only affects the drum sounds you hear outside of the game's recorded tracks.  There is really nothing that Ubisoft could have done to eliminate the lag because it's a problem inherent to digital audio processing and originates from the device decodes the audio rather than the game itself.  

This whole situation makes Ubisoft look bad if you don't take the real source of the problem into account, but it happens because of factors outside of their control.  There is no way they could have coded the game differently to eliminate the audio lag.
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« Reply #44 on: October 24, 2011, 02:10:44 AM »

There couldn't be any lag adjustment that they could have used to compensate?

If I do go this route are there any setting changes that I need to make within the xbox when I want to play with this one, or just switch the audio from the source receiver?
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« Reply #45 on: October 24, 2011, 03:01:35 AM »

Quote from: Devil on October 24, 2011, 02:10:44 AM

There couldn't be any lag adjustment that they could have used to compensate?

Not when the audio is driven entirely by user input.  The A/V sync disarm mentioned is done by delaying the video signal to coincide with the audio - by the time the audio is processed and output to the speakers, the video is delayed so they match.  That doesn't work with this type of closed loop.  The video (scrolling notes) prompts the user to play a note, which creates an audio input (guitar signal) that is processed by the game and output to the audio system.  If the video is delayed, then the user input is delayed, and the audio is delayed further.  Impossible to get around that.  The only way to rectify the lag is to improve the latency of the digital audio processing.

Even if you ignored video and just played via audio cues, there's still the latency between when the game plays the backing audio track, and the user plays a note in time with the music.  If it takes 200msec to process the guitar input into an audio output, the only way to get around that would be to play ahead of the music - talk about unacceptable. 

There's a reason many of the most popular guitar amps still use analog vacuum tube technology from the mid-1900s.  When it comes to audio, digital ain't always better. 
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« Reply #46 on: October 24, 2011, 03:15:58 AM »

Quote from: Devil on October 24, 2011, 02:10:44 AM

There couldn't be any lag adjustment that they could have used to compensate?

In this case, I really don't think there is anything that they could have done.  The audio delay that I'm talking about is the time between when you pluck a string on the guitar and when you hear that sound through your speakers.  If you're using analog audio, the only significant delay that occurs is that due to the signal processing that occurs within the Rocksmith cable and your gaming console.  The amount of time it takes to transmit an analog audio signal to your speakers is insignificant, as evidenced by the fact that all guitar amp systems use analog signals without any noticeable delay.  

For Rocksmith, Ubisoft constructed the cable and programmed the game to minimize the delay between a note being played and when that sound is output from your console (in any format).  I've read estimates around the 'net that put this delay at somewhere around 30ms, an amount of time that is so small that's it's unimportant, and why you can get a good experience with analog audio.  The real problem occurs when the audio is output from your console in a digital format.  This digital signal leaves the console and goes to your playback device, which must then decode the audio before sending it to your speakers.  All digital audio decoders take a small amount of time to convert the digital signal, and in some cases this time is enough to cause a significant lag between playing a note and hearing it through your speakers.  It's a problem that occurs outside of the game and your console, making it something that Ubisoft can't control.  It gets even more complicated when you consider that not all devices cause a signficant delay.  In my case, the audio processing in my Onkyo receiver is slow enough that it makes for an inferior gameplay experience.
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« Reply #47 on: October 24, 2011, 03:40:46 PM »

Yeah and probably most importantly, even the same exact devices (depending on configuration and setup) won't cause the same delay.
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« Reply #48 on: October 25, 2011, 08:01:31 PM »

Good news for future DLC....Rocksmith was the #5 best selling game last week in the USA....though actually higher, since that is just for the 360 version and if you add the PS3 version numbers to it, then it beats the new Ratchet and Clank game, which is a PS3 only game and Forza 4 which is only for the 360...  smile

http://www.vgchartz.com/weekly.php?reg=America&date=&console=&maker=
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« Reply #49 on: October 25, 2011, 08:15:19 PM »

I'm shocked (and pleased) that it's doing so well.  I didn't think the masses would pay any interest to a new entry to the music game genre, let alone one that requires you own a real guitar.
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« Reply #50 on: October 25, 2011, 08:22:28 PM »

Hard to say how much it needs to sell to keep going (120k is pretty good, but will need to grow). But it has some great word of mouth going on so hopefully it'll sell pretty well through the holidays.
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« Reply #51 on: October 25, 2011, 08:25:10 PM »

Quote from: wonderpug on October 25, 2011, 08:15:19 PM

I'm shocked (and pleased) that it's doing so well.  I didn't think the masses would pay any interest to a new entry to the music game genre, let alone one that requires you own a real guitar.

I am honestly shocked as well that it is doing so good. I guess the fact that tons of people have real guitars and don't have to buy a fake plastic one to play is more appealing than I (or many others) thought it would be. It is also a very well made game and is getting good reviews, unlike the steaming pile that was PowerGig.

It's at 132,438 sold in the USA so far after one week. It's also a $80 game, which makes it even more impressive.
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« Reply #52 on: October 25, 2011, 09:15:11 PM »

Back to me being less angry - Can I use headphones to play rather than routing analog into my receiver and playing with the inputs?

I hope!
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« Reply #53 on: October 26, 2011, 02:08:22 AM »

Not sure if I am doing something wrong but it keeps recommending that I play the same song over and over.  Until now I was getting a good variety from the recommended career progression choices.

Also I wish you could turn off tuning the guitar before every song.
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« Reply #54 on: October 26, 2011, 03:45:01 AM »

I have a feeling that DLC will be limited and hard to do for Rocksmith.  Music notation publishing companies make a lot off the rights to publish music.  The other games were just color "notes".  This could prove to be quite a battle.
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« Reply #55 on: October 26, 2011, 12:03:57 PM »

I just ran across this on the Rocksmith facebook page.

Seth Chapla: I can't tell you specifically the songs that we're notetracking at the moment, but they are EXTREMELY metal. We consulted with a work safety expert and they recommended that we wear welding masks while working to avoid severe face melts. Being Seth Chapla and all, I declined of course, but I promise you, some heavy stuff is on the way.

Seth is a notetracker for the game so it looks like they are in the process of creating at least some dlc. I would be shocked if they don't release a fair amount of DLC for this game, especially since the game is doing well at retail and they don't need the masters for the songs, the way Rock Band does....hence the inclusion of Sweet Home Alabama (not the live version), Satisfaction, Sunshine of Your Love and House of the Rising Sun. I am hopeful that means we will get many older songs that don't have useable masters and haven't been in Rock Band/Guitar Hero.
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« Reply #56 on: October 26, 2011, 04:31:32 PM »

Quote from: skystride on October 26, 2011, 02:08:22 AM

Also I wish you could turn off tuning the guitar before every song.

I don't have an issue with this exactly. I don't like the implementation where you pop back and forth into the tuner after each string.  If you go into the tuner, it should just stay there to check them all.

I've read the discussion above on the audio setup.  Everything I'm reading above seems to blame audio sync issues on the time it takes to decode audio.  In all the music games I've played, my issue has been from the video processing and not the audio. When I got a new TV with a game mode, my audio sync issues went away for the most part (I don't notice it in games anymore at least).

My setup is with component video out (no hdmi on my xbox) and digital optical out to my home theater: the "Better" in the rocksmith poster.

My AV receiver has the ability to delay the audio signal up to 200 ms to account for the amount of time the video takes to render/scale on the HD set. It does NOT have any ability to delay the video signal.   Once I got my new TV with game mode I set this to 0 ms and haven't had any issues.  On my old HDTV, the video scaling/smoothing was causing a delay and I had to add a delay of around 70 ms with the earlier versions of guitar hero/rock band.  When rock band 2 came out with it's automatic guitar syncing, most of the problems I had went away for that game.

My point is this: I believe that audio decoding the dolby digital signal should be near negligible on most AV receivers. Maybe I'm just lucky here with my older receiver (no hdmi on it either) but the problems I had were always video delays. There is way more video data to display/scale/smooth/render than audio.  The newer HD sets minimize that with "game mode" settings where they don't do that much processing on the video signal.   

Use case 1: If you are setup where the audio is coming from your TV because your hdmi cable from the xbox goes there first and then allows you to split the audio out to your receiver, then your TV will be introducing a delay into the audio signal because it is taking into account the amount of time it takes to render the video and delaying the audio to match. I figured this out when I was splitting my audio from my directv.  The audio was always before the video when I had the TOS link directly from the directv receiver to the AV receiver.  When I switched the audio to come from the TV via the TOSlink output it has (directv connected to TV via hdmi), it has always been in sync.  I figured out the TV is delaying the audio signal to match.  The delay wasn't consistent depending on the type of signal my directv was processing (SD vs. HD sets) so I had to keep changing it until I let the TV handle it. 

I don't do this setup for gaming because the video signal is consistent (xbox puts out 720p non-stop, no extra processing in game mode) and I was playing rhythm games all the time. I haven't played a rhythm game in a long time but the forum effect made me get this one.  I can't call this a rhythm game though.  It's a guitar trainer that makes practicing fun.




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« Reply #57 on: October 27, 2011, 03:53:59 AM »

Quote from: Hetz on October 26, 2011, 12:03:57 PM

I just ran across this on the Rocksmith facebook page.

Seth Chapla: I can't tell you specifically the songs that we're notetracking at the moment, but they are EXTREMELY metal. We consulted with a work safety expert and they recommended that we wear welding masks while working to avoid severe face melts. Being Seth Chapla and all, I declined of course, but I promise you, some heavy stuff is on the way.

Seth is a notetracker for the game so it looks like they are in the process of creating at least some dlc. I would be shocked if they don't release a fair amount of DLC for this game, especially since the game is doing well at retail and they don't need the masters for the songs, the way Rock Band does....hence the inclusion of Sweet Home Alabama (not the live version), Satisfaction, Sunshine of Your Love and House of the Rising Sun. I am hopeful that means we will get many older songs that don't have useable masters and haven't been in Rock Band/Guitar Hero.

Yeah, I'm not saying there won't be any just that I expect the Hal Leonards of the world to fight it and get upset about it.  Could be totally wrong, but with the history of the music industry resisting technology and change, I figure it will be an issue here.
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« Reply #58 on: October 27, 2011, 04:18:23 PM »

How are you supposed to tell what fret to hold in the baseball game?  All I see is a colored string indicator.
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« Reply #59 on: October 28, 2011, 09:08:05 PM »

Never mind, the fret number is over the pitchers head.  I must be blind.
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« Reply #60 on: October 28, 2011, 10:12:01 PM »

Just saw this on their official Twitter:

Quote
Great news #Rocksmith fans, DLC is coming soon. Stay tuned for more details in the coming days.

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« Reply #61 on: October 29, 2011, 02:00:58 AM »

Important update regarding my audio lag issues...it's fixed!

The RCA/TOSLINK audio adapter that I ordered from Monoprice arrived yesterday, I hooked it up to my 360 tonight, and the audio lag is almost eliminated.  There's still a very slight delay, but it's really not noticeable unless I focus on hearing it, and it's definitely not enough to be a distraction while playing any longer.  Getting away from the digital audio signal has improved my Rocksmith dramatically and I can't wait to spend more time with the game now.  In fact, I've been playing for about the last hour, made it through the second performance (with an encore song that I'd never even heard before), and unlocked Master level for my first song ('Go With the Flow').  Granted that song is just strumming power chords like a mad man for three minutes, but I can now do it at the highest level with 99% accuracy thanks to a little practice and audio that's in sync with my playing Headbanging!

So for those curious about my audio setup now, I have my 360 connected to my Onkyo receiver via HDMI, as well as analog audio cables using the adapter.  The video goes from the receiver to my TV over HDMI, and the analog audio is output through my home theater speakers.  I don't have to switch any cables to use analog audio for Rocksmith and Dolby Digital for everything else...just have to tell my receiver to use the analog input whenever I play Rocksmith, and that only takes a few seconds with the remote.  The 360 apparently puts out both audio signals simultaneously, so I can switch between them very easily.  Switching to analog audio makes all the difference, and it was fixed for less than $5 thanks to Monoprice icon_cool
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« Reply #62 on: October 29, 2011, 12:16:58 PM »

Awesome! Glad you were able to get it fixed!   icon_biggrin
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« Reply #63 on: October 29, 2011, 07:05:50 PM »

I'm late to this thread because I've been too busy playing Rocksmith. I've been playing guitar for about 10 years now, I taught for 2 years and I can't say enough about this game. It really is a fantastic combination of the things I love, guitar an video games. I would highly recommend this game for beginner guitarist and advanced guitarist. I can't remember the last time I was so excited to play guitar. The more people that purchase this game and more it takes off the better the sequel will be and the people win in that situation. I can't wait for the DLC, where they hopefully will release an excellent selection of songs.

The learning curve for this game is fantastic and it really does a great job of teaching new players about the instrument and helping educate them on how to tune their guitar and learning chord names and patterns. It would be nice if there was an option to turn on notation on the fret board, rather than just the tab style it displays, but this is the most effective method for beginners.

I really enjoy the 'techniques' that you build upon and how eventually they get you to tune to drop-D. I would love to see DLC with different tunings as well.

Another portion of this game I enjoy is the amp mode. It is an effects processor built directly into your TV, which is great if you have a good audio setup. I find myself practicing on my TV now, rather than using my actual amp and effects setups (most likely because Rocksmith is new and fun.) It is a pretty decent set up and the customization can be very in depth and overwhelming for a beginner and a gold mine for an advanced player. I've spent hours just playing with the effects and amp setups.

I could ramble on about this game for a lengthy period of time, but instead I will conclude with: if you are thinking of learning guitar or brushing up on your skills or you're an amazing player that wants to have some fun and learn a whack lot of excellent songs, PICK THIS TITLE UP!
 
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« Reply #64 on: October 29, 2011, 07:43:35 PM »

I'm enjoying it and my only complaint is the damn slow menus and constant pauses and load times.  A game of this graphics details should have load times no longer than a second.  It's just lazy programming I think.  This is on the PS3, I don't know if it's any different on the Xbox.
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« Reply #65 on: October 29, 2011, 08:24:40 PM »

Quote from: skystride on October 29, 2011, 07:43:35 PM

I'm enjoying it and my only complaint is the damn slow menus and constant pauses and load times.  A game of this graphics details should have load times no longer than a second.  It's just lazy programming I think.  This is on the PS3, I don't know if it's any different on the Xbox.

It's the same on 360, and yes, really the only complaint I can levy against it.  There are some parts of the menu that are just weird.  If I go to the Songs list, and pick a song, it might have a single-note arrangement, a chord arrangement, and a combo arrangement ("Sweet Home Alabama" does this).  So I'll try the single note version.  Play though, fun!  Now I want to try the chord arrangement.  Can I pick that version and play?  Sure, but first I have to go back to my current progress in my "Journey", then go back to Songs, then go find that song again, then I can pick the alternate version.  They really seem to want to force you into the game progression.  It needs a dedicated Quickplay mode where I can pick whatever I want, play it, and then get dumped right back to song selections. 

I'm curious to see if anything changes once you get through the entire "Journey" sequence.
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« Reply #66 on: October 31, 2011, 08:22:27 PM »

Another positive review for the game, this time at Gametrailers.com....

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/review-pod-rocksmith/723302
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« Reply #67 on: November 01, 2011, 03:51:44 PM »

DLC is out today:

Freebird - Lynard Skynard
Bodysnatchers - Radiohead
Tighten Up - The Black Keys
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« Reply #68 on: November 01, 2011, 06:13:42 PM »

I was getting frustrated playing the same recommended song over and over again because I can't hit Qualify.  Always around 3000 points below the required level.  Finally last night it just clicked and on my first try I finished 4000 points over the requirement!
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« Reply #69 on: November 01, 2011, 06:35:11 PM »

DLC for 11/14 was also announced today:

Smoke on the Water
More Than A Feeling
Jessica
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« Reply #70 on: November 01, 2011, 06:50:00 PM »

More Than a Feeling?  I've always wanted to learn that one. 

How does the game designate chords?  Does it just list out the fingering for each string like tablature, or does it tell you the chord name?  Can it understand chord variations or do you have to play the specific version they have in mind, e.g., can you play G as both

3
0
0
0
2
3

and

3
3
4
5
5
3

?
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« Reply #71 on: November 02, 2011, 03:06:48 PM »

Quote from: Hetz on November 01, 2011, 06:35:11 PM

DLC for 11/14 was also announced today:

Smoke on the Water
More Than A Feeling
Jessica

Wooo!  Win win WIN!  I am going to spend WAY more on DLC for this than I ever did with Rock Band.



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« Reply #72 on: November 02, 2011, 03:27:41 PM »

Quote from: wonderpug on November 01, 2011, 06:50:00 PM

More Than a Feeling?  I've always wanted to learn that one. 

How does the game designate chords?  Does it just list out the fingering for each string like tablature, or does it tell you the chord name?  Can it understand chord variations or do you have to play the specific version they have in mind, e.g., can you play G as both

3
0
0
0
2
3

and

3
3
4
5
5
3

?

It does both.  The chord notation comes across the screen as a "boxed" notation with a particular chord shape in mind.  Usually, I've found that the particular chord shape it asks for is the most appropriate one to use.  If the song is using a barre chord progression up and down the neck, it won't switch to an open chord shape because a guitarist probably wouldn't do that.  If the song is using an open chord progression (like D-C-G) it won't suddenly witch to a barre chord for no reason, because again it makes it much more difficult to play.

That said, I don't know if it will recognize an alternate chord fingering as "correct" when determining playing success.  It will sound fine, since it's using your guitar input directly.
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« Reply #73 on: November 03, 2011, 03:17:08 AM »

Ive been watching this with interest and may just pick this up as a christmas present for myself.  Got a question though.  I do not have a guitar to use with the game.  It the bundled guitar worth it or should I scout ebay and the local music stores for a decent used axe?
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« Reply #74 on: November 03, 2011, 04:53:07 AM »

If you are just starting out on guitar, I would not buy used.  You won't know what to look out for, and run the risk of buying a piece of crap.

The guitar bundled with Rocksmith is an Epiphone Les Paul Jr, a decent entry-level guitar.  It retails by itself for about $130, so getting the bundle is saving you maybe $10.  It's not a bad guitar for the price.  You could always find a guitar store and try one out, or see what other guitars in the same price range feel like.  Different guitars actually feel quite different - I've played a Fender Stratocaster for years, and a Gibson Les Paul feels like a massive chunk of lead in my lap.  Feels totally different.  You might as well hold a few and see if one in particular feels good.  Then go online and check reviews and see if it sounds like a winner.

However, if you do decide to go with the bundle I think you'll be getting a pretty decent guitar. 
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« Reply #75 on: November 05, 2011, 03:13:33 AM »

Quote from: Boudreaux on November 03, 2011, 04:53:07 AM

If you are just starting out on guitar, I would not buy used.  You won't know what to look out for, and run the risk of buying a piece of crap.

The guitar bundled with Rocksmith is an Epiphone Les Paul Jr, a decent entry-level guitar.  It retails by itself for about $130, so getting the bundle is saving you maybe $10.  It's not a bad guitar for the price.  You could always find a guitar store and try one out, or see what other guitars in the same price range feel like.  Different guitars actually feel quite different - I've played a Fender Stratocaster for years, and a Gibson Les Paul feels like a massive chunk of lead in my lap.  Feels totally different.  You might as well hold a few and see if one in particular feels good.  Then go online and check reviews and see if it sounds like a winner.

However, if you do decide to go with the bundle I think you'll be getting a pretty decent guitar. 

Thanks for the advice!
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Travis
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« Reply #76 on: November 05, 2011, 04:19:32 AM »

On top of that, you may find that guitar isn't your thing.

I have played for almost two decades now and have no interest in this game.  However, I can think of people that do that will get frustrated with the amount of practice it will take to get proper form to play the songs.  If these people spend a lot of cash on a used or new guitar, they may be ultimately very depressed.  If you just buy the cheap version thinking of it as primarily a tool to play the game and learn on, then you can't lose if you find out the six string instrument really isn't for you.
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« Reply #77 on: November 05, 2011, 04:52:14 PM »

I picked up the bundle for my son. He has expressed some interest in playing, and even took lessons for a little while, but didn't want to put in practice time. I'm hoping this will bridge the gap, where he is having fun and also learning.
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skystride
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« Reply #78 on: November 06, 2011, 01:00:14 AM »

The best praise I can give this game is that despite having all these cool new games like Batman, Uncharted and Battlefield, I find that I'm playing more Rocksmith.  I love playing the Radiohead song High and Dry.  I had no guitar experience but I am starting to notice significant improvement in playing scales so far.  I'm sitll pretty horrible with chords.
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Ralph-Wiggum
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« Reply #79 on: November 06, 2011, 03:14:06 AM »

I got this yesterday. I've only been "playing" guitar for a few months, so I'm pretty terrible. I do better with the chords 'cause that's what I'm used to from the acoustic I've played, but I'm pretty terrible with the single notes. I wish it showed how your fingers should be placed for the song even when just playing a single note (i.e. so I'm not sure hen-pecking each note). Even having only played a couple of hours, I definitely think I'm improving. And my finger tips are feeling it.  icon_biggrin
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