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Author Topic: PS3 Info from PSM  (Read 3236 times)
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Hetz
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« on: August 02, 2005, 11:47:01 PM »

Got this from OO, thanks baron/Rob:


http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/38046

Quote

The latest issue of independent PlayStation 2/3 magazine PSM has quite a few details regarding the PS3, including some already-suspected information as well as a couple surprises. Details include:

* Exhaustive connectivity between PSP and PS3: PSP will interface with the PS3 through Bluetooth, serving as a remote and media manager for the console. PSP can also access PS3 over the internet, so the two can interface even when you're far away.
* No standard 1080i (or 1080p) support: Most games will apparently run at 720p; use of 1080i and 1080p is only at the developer's discretion. All games should have support for 480p and 480i for gamers without HDTVs.
* Wider storage medium support than expected: PS3 will support Memory Sticks, Compact Flash, SD cards, Blu-Ray (of course), and SACD. UMD support doesn't seem present, though.
* Software-only backwards compatibility: While PS3 will play PS1/PS2 games, it has no ports for peripherals for those systems, including their memory cards. All save data must be accessed through flash memory cards (that means no save data can be stored on the hard drive either, according to PSM). PSM speculates that Sony will release a USB multi-tap like device with legacy support for controllers and memory cards.
* Wireless access point: The PS3 will serve as a wireless access point (think they'll go out of their way to lock out access to Nintendo's DS online service?). The PSM article also mentions router functionality, though past reports have indicated that this will no longer be the case.
* Release date: Just a general "spring 2006". Some developers assume this applies to Japan, Europe, and North America.
* Wacky controller: Yeah, it's still a banana.

An excerpt of note, regarding the PS3 demos at E3:

None of the game footage was taken from software running on systems using the final PS3 graphics chip, the Reality Synthesizer (RSX). ... The most stunning demo, Killzone PS3, was from an actual game engine running on an alpha kit--at less than five frames per second. The footage was sped up to 60fps in post-production.


* No standard 1080i (or 1080p) support: Most games will apparently run at 720p; use of 1080i and 1080p is only at the developer's discretion. All games should have support for 480p and 480i for gamers without HDTVs.

 :shock:

Well, no PS3 for me then.

That is just insane, since 60-70% of HDTV's have no support for 720p and most that do have to upscale it to 1080i. There are not that many native 720p sets out there.

Is Sony TRYING to lose this war before it even starts?

- No 1080i Support
- No standard hard drive
- A god awful controller
- Could launch a year after the 360 in the states
- Could have a $500 price tag
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Andrew Mallon
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« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2005, 12:04:39 AM »

Wouldn't they be just be talking about the native resolution for the game? I assume the PS3 will automatically scale the image to the desired format, just like the 360. It'll have to have a scaler anyway if its going to do HD movie playback.
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« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2005, 12:07:38 AM »

*hugs his native 720p HDTV*

The wireless connectivity with the PSP looks awesome, as is the ability to function as a WAP, but here's hoping they ditch the banana controller.
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Kevin Grey
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« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2005, 12:12:14 AM »

Isn't 720p the highest mandated for 360 w/ the 360 scaling to 1080i if necessary?  If the PS3 does the 720p to 1080i scaling then its a complete non-issue, which is what I expect.  

The rest ($500 pricetage, launch date) is still complete speculation.  

Hetz, it looks like you want to overreact to what is really nothing new since the E3 announcement.
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« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2005, 12:15:15 AM »

Copy and pasted my replies from OO, but in short... I agree with Kevin and Dimmona:

Quote from: "gellar"
Quote from: "baron calamity"
Some ps3 stuff from PSM via Shacknews

http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/38046



Cool... my thoughts below:

    * Exhaustive connectivity between PSP and PS3: PSP will interface with the PS3 through Bluetooth, serving as a remote and media manager for the console. PSP can also access PS3 over the internet, so the two can interface even when you're far away. - Neat.  Seems like this could be cool.
    * No standard 1080i (or 1080p) support: Most games will apparently run at 720p; use of 1080i and 1080p is only at the developer's discretion. All games should have support for 480p and 480i for gamers without HDTVs. - While I'd prefer a stronger forced standard, I have no problem with this.  The majority of current HD games run in 720p and not 1080i and most of the new HDTVs (DLPs in particular) all can support a 720p signal.  More importantly, MY TV can support an HDTV signal smile.
    * Wider storage medium support than expected: PS3 will support Memory Sticks, Compact Flash, SD cards, Blu-Ray (of course), and SACD. UMD support doesn't seem present, though. - Groovy
    * Software-only backwards compatibility: While PS3 will play PS1/PS2 games, it has no ports for peripherals for those systems, including their memory cards. All save data must be accessed through flash memory cards (that means no save data can be stored on the hard drive either, according to PSM). PSM speculates that Sony will release a USB multi-tap like device with legacy support for controllers and memory cards. - Backwards compatibility is always appreciated... so this is neat.
    * Wireless access point: The PS3 will serve as a wireless access point (think they'll go out of their way to lock out access to Nintendo's DS online service?). The PSM article also mentions router functionality, though past reports have indicated that this will no longer be the case. - Totally unnecessary.
    * Release date: Just a general "spring 2006". Some developers assume this applies to Japan, Europe, and North America. - That'll give the XBox at least a 4 month lead.  Will be interesting to see what happens, that's for sure.
    * Wacky controller: Yeah, it's still a banana. - Yeah... that fucker is strange.  Then again, the XBox survived with its horrible launch controller, so hopefully Sony fixes this ASAP.  Either that or hopefully it's way more comfortable than I think it will be.

An excerpt of note, regarding the PS3 demos at E3:

    None of the game footage was taken from software running on systems using the final PS3 graphics chip, the Reality Synthesizer (RSX). ... The most stunning demo, Killzone PS3, was from an actual game engine running on an alpha kit--at less than five frames per second. The footage was sped up to 60fps in post-production. Sur-fucking-prise!

All in all, still interested to see it.

gellar


Quote from: "gellar"
Quote from: "Hetz"
That is just insane, since 60-70% of HDTV's have no support for 720p and most that do have to upscale it to 1080i. There are not that many native 720p sets out there.


Really?  Source of stats?

I remember personally hunting out a 720p compatible set with my last purchase as my previous one didn't do 720p and it royally pissed me off.  I had no problem finding a 720p set.

Quote from: "Hetz"

Is Sony TRYING to lose this war before it even starts?

- No 1080i Support
- No standard hard drive
- A god awful controller
- Could launch a year after the 360 in the states
- Could have a $500 price tag


1) Probably a non-issue.  The % of folks who own an HD Set vs the % of folks who own a non 720p HD Set vs the % of folks who don't own HD at all is probably equal.
2) Yeah this blows, but if it takes CompactFlash, I don't particularly give a hoot.  1GB of CF = cheap!
3) Looks bad, but never touched it.  Potentially awful controller, but who knows.
4) Could also launch in Spring, like they say.
5) Could also not.

gellar
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« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2005, 01:06:54 AM »

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but the way this is worded, you can NOT use the HD to save your PS3 saves on.

Which means that we'll all be buying lots of Sony branded memory sticks (which generally are not cheap) to save our games on.

Didn't we learn with the Xbox that memory cards are bad?
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« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2005, 01:15:25 AM »

Quote from: "Destructor"


Which means that we'll all be buying lots of Sony branded memory sticks (which generally are not cheap) to save our games on.
 


That much is incorrect.  Sony is supporting pretty much every type of portable storage media on the market.  Have a Compac Flash card laying around? You can probably use it to save your games.

No idea about the hard drive part.
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Hetz
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« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2005, 01:31:10 AM »

There is a difference between native 720p and upscaled 720p. Many sets sold now do upscaled 720p, but very few (unless they are plasma) do native 720p.

Most all sets sold before a year or so ago don't do 720p at all, not even upscaled, meaning the sets themselves do not upscale, they would need to be scaled by the PS3 or 360 or whatever.

Upscaled 720p does not look as good as native 720p or native 1080i, which is why it is silly for Sony to not include 1080i as a standard resolution, if the PS3 is as powerful as they claim.
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« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2005, 01:33:46 AM »

Quote from: "Kevin Grey"
Quote from: "Destructor"


Which means that we'll all be buying lots of Sony branded memory sticks (which generally are not cheap) to save our games on.
 


That much is incorrect.  Sony is supporting pretty much every type of portable storage media on the market.  Have a Compac Flash card laying around? You can probably use it to save your games.

No idea about the hard drive part.


The hard drive will not support saves, that is the word on the street. It will only support "media" and be optional, which means it will suffer the same fate as the PS2 hard drive.

It's just silly to not include a hard drive as a standard feature at this point. I am stick of memory cards/sticks/flash media...blah, blah, blah. Just another way to milk money out of people.
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Kevin Grey
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« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2005, 01:34:04 AM »

But Hetz, everything I can find states that MS is also only mandating 720p as a minimum for 360 games.  Why aren't you railing against them too?

Quote
It's just silly to not include a hard drive as a standard feature at this point. I am stick of memory cards/sticks/flash media...blah, blah, blah. Just another way to milk money out of people.


If Sony is allowing people to use any company's portable memory then its hardly to milk money.  Not to say a hard-drive wouldn't be appreciated but I think the basis for not including it is saving per unit cost and not trying to boost accessory sales.
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« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2005, 02:32:19 AM »

Quote from: "Hetz"
There is a difference between native 720p and upscaled 720p. Many sets sold now do upscaled 720p, but very few (unless they are plasma) do native 720p.


If I'm not mistaken, DLP (arguably the most popular on the market right now) native resolution is 720p.

gellar
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« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2005, 02:56:34 AM »

I've never managed to fill my PS2 memory card.  If they can cut $100 off the price of a PS3 by not including a HD then I'm all for it.
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« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2005, 02:59:23 AM »

I am still excited for the PS3, but I personally think it is silly and another blatant money grab to not allow saving on the HDD. As for the 720dpi stuff, I am unfortunately not TV savvy enough to know the difference, although I do hope to get an HDTV if I can ever find a job smile
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« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2005, 03:01:28 AM »

Quote from: "Kevin Grey"
But Hetz, everything I can find states that MS is also only mandating 720p as a minimum for 360 games.  Why aren't you railing against them too?


From XBOX.com:

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/xbox360/factsheet.htm

Quote
All games supported at 16:9, 720p, and 1080i, anti-aliasing
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« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2005, 03:50:53 AM »

Is it native or upscaled?  The 360 wiki states:

Quote
All games support a 16:9 aspect ratio, and a minimum of 720p resolution with 2x full-scene anti-aliasing enabled. The embedded Microsoft web-tv chip is able to automatically reformat 720p to the best available display resolution including 480i, 480p, 1080i as well as dynamically crop or scale 16:9 to fit 4:3 screens. Some games will optionally support native 1080i and 480p video resolutions as well.


Which matches what I've heard elsewhere, doesn't contradict the statement you quoted, and seems to be what Sony is saying too.  I don't think we will know for sure in both cases until launch games are actually in reviewers hands.  Seems a bit premature for such doom and gloom.
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« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2005, 06:02:17 AM »

They have already announced that they are taking the wireless access point functionality out of the PS3.  They figure that most people who want wireless will already have wireless routers.
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« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2005, 06:27:28 AM »

I am thrilled that they are allowing other types of storage media.  It makes sense for this big media box thing they are going for.  However, I will be shocked if you can actually save games on anything but a Memory Stick/Duo.  I'd be happy if you can, but Sony makes WAY too much money on memory cards to just jettison that guaranteed revenue.

Peripherals (memory card, extra controller, fancy A/V cables, etc.) add up and are a quick way to catch up when you are already selling your system for a loss.
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« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2005, 12:30:07 PM »

Quote from: "Kevin Grey"
That much is incorrect.  Sony is supporting pretty much every type of portable storage media on the market.  Have a Compac Flash card laying around? You can probably use it to save your games.

No idea about the hard drive part.


Just because the cards are readable does NOT mean they are WRITABLE. Besides, this "multicard adapter" built into the PS3 sounds a whole lot like a $15 USB adapter (20 media type reader) at tigerdirect.ca. That means that you can get the same thing for your USB ports on an x360, but aren't forcing your entire customer base to eat the price on it. Since I have a Sony Camera, why would I care about the other media at this point? I don't. Yeah, other media may be cheaper, but if it ultimately doesn't interface with the portable electronics I use, then there's no point. Might as well get a USB memory key.

Seriously, that doesn't impress me one bit. I suspect the media on the reader is going to be VERY limited (IE it may read the PSP encoded MP3s, jpgs, etc but not interface with gaming). They need to provide a direct (not bluetooth) connection to stream the video to your PS3 for me to be remotely interested in starting a UMD collection. If that.

They've stated that this new system is supposed to be a livingroom computer; that means it's peripherals may or may not have any DIRECT connection to the actual gaming function of the platform.

As to 1080i vs 720p, 720p is a better picture for gaming, bar none.
1080p is awesome, but support for it isn't considered a requirement for HDTVs. I figured sony was just tooting the "we're better than you" horn at E3 with their 1080p support. Here's a quick rundown (check out hometheaterspot.com forums for full info on the difference. All of this is from memory, so I might have missed something).

Note that both standards use the same data bandwidth (or pretty darn close) :

720p - draws 720 horizonal lines per panel
        - progressive means the panel lines are complete in one pass, in two panel frames there are 1440 horizontal lines drawn.
        - runs at a smooth 60 (full)frames / sec
        - uses 24bit digital color depth

1080i - draws 540 horizonal lines per panel
         - interlacing means it alternates per panel, full 1080 lines realized in 2 frames, so 1080 horizonal in 2 panel frames.
         - runs a more than acceptable 30(full)frames / sec.
         - uses full 32bit digital color depth

I'd rather have a smooth ride than a bit more color, and interlaced higher resolution, personally. ::shrug::

[update] I can't find the thread right now, it might have been on a different site. They went through EVERYTHING about the bandwidth use. ::sigh::
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« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2005, 02:10:47 PM »

Yep... I posted on OO that I'd rather have a max potential at 60fps vs 30fps, resolution be damned (particularly if they're very close).

gellar
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« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2005, 03:34:32 PM »

No PS3 until 2007?

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/08/02/news_6129862.html?tag=lastword_all_headline

Sony would be nuts if they did that. Right now, the word ftom Sony is that the PS3 will launch in Japan before 3/31/06 and in North America late 2006...which I think is giving the 360 way too big a lead...but we will see.
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« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2005, 03:53:09 PM »

Quote from: "Hetz"
No PS3 until 2007?

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/08/02/news_6129862.html?tag=lastword_all_headline

Sony would be nuts if they did that. Right now, the word ftom Sony is that the PS3 will launch in Japan before 3/31/06 and in North America late 2006...which I think is giving the 360 way too big a lead...but we will see.


I wouldn't put too much stock into that article - it's just one analyst's idea of what could happen if all the right conditions are met (the main one being the X-Box 360 not selling well). IMO, there's no way Sony lets the X-Box 360 have a two holiday season lead over the PS3.
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« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2005, 03:54:42 PM »

Before anyone flies off the handle, that link is strictly analyst Wedbush Morgan's hypothesis on what they think Sony might do and has no bearing in fact on any statements or actions from Sony.

EDIT- Ralph beat me to it.
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« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2005, 05:18:57 PM »

Ugh... my HDTV doesn't even upscale 720p -looks like I'm stuck at 480p.

Unless those 40"+ LCD sets come down in price as anticipated smile
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« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2005, 05:27:52 PM »

Quote from: "Laner"
Ugh... my HDTV doesn't even upscale 720p -looks like I'm stuck at 480p.

Unless those 40"+ LCD sets come down in price as anticipated smile


Both the 360 and the PS3 will scale  smile  720p to 1080i for you. You won't need a new set.
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« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2005, 08:03:17 PM »

Pet peeve:

720p to 1080i is downscaling, not upscaling.
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« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2005, 08:23:24 PM »

Quote
Both the 360 and the PS3 will upscale 720p to 1080i for you.

Really?  That'd be great, though this is the first I've heard of it.  Got a link of some sort?

Edit: never mind, I saw the wiki mentioned above.  Very cool.

Quote from: "Loomi"
Pet peeve:
720p to 1080i is downscaling, not upscaling.

I guess it depends on your definition... I'm no expert here and could be totally of the mark,  but 1920x1080 (2,073,600 pixels) is greater than 1280x720 (921,600 pixels) - even if it is alternating every other line. If you want to say 1080i is only 1920x540, that still leaves you with ~100K pixels more than 720p.

Of course I'd prefer 1080p and render the whole argument moot smile
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« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2005, 08:37:56 PM »

Quote from: "Laner"
Of course I'd prefer 1080p and render the whole argument moot smile


Without a doubt... except that I'd have to buy a new TV since mine doesn't accept a 1080p signal.   :?
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« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2005, 08:51:35 PM »

if they could turn the ps3 into a media center id be all for it smile
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« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2005, 10:29:53 PM »

Ever get the feeling Sony and Nintendo have a bet going to see who can deliver the more wacky things, and still get americains to buy them?
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« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2005, 12:56:29 AM »

Quote
None of the game footage was taken from software running on systems using the final PS3 graphics chip, the Reality Synthesizer (RSX). ... The most stunning demo, Killzone PS3, was from an actual game engine running on an alpha kit--at less than five frames per second. The footage was sped up to 60fps in post-production.


Did they mention this at E3?
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« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2005, 02:09:45 AM »

Quote from: "CeeKay"
Quote
None of the game footage was taken from software running on systems using the final PS3 graphics chip, the Reality Synthesizer (RSX). ... The most stunning demo, Killzone PS3, was from an actual game engine running on an alpha kit--at less than five frames per second. The footage was sped up to 60fps in post-production.


Did they mention this at E3?


I don't remember hearing this, and to be honest it would have been rather stupid of them to do so.  The hype machine blew a gasket over the video (even though every site said it wasn't "real") and to deflate the momentum by mentioning it ran at all of 5fps would have been a bad move.
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« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2005, 04:09:15 AM »

Nope, although there was some mention of the footage being edited somehow.
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« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2005, 06:54:26 AM »

Quote from: "stiffler"
Quote from: "CeeKay"
Quote
None of the game footage was taken from software running on systems using the final PS3 graphics chip, the Reality Synthesizer (RSX). ... The most stunning demo, Killzone PS3, was from an actual game engine running on an alpha kit--at less than five frames per second. The footage was sped up to 60fps in post-production.


Did they mention this at E3?


I don't remember hearing this, and to be honest it would have been rather stupid of them to do so.  The hype machine blew a gasket over the video (even though every site said it wasn't "real") and to deflate the momentum by mentioning it ran at all of 5fps would have been a bad move.


It was mentioned recently on G4TV.com.  (Either this past weekend or the weekend before, possibly by Cliffy B, but I can't remember exactly.)  Of course Sony wouldn't mention this at E3.  While they could claim that it was running "in real time" it's more in the wording than the true spirit of the phrase.
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