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Author Topic: PS3's good points?  (Read 5028 times)
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Purge
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« Reply #40 on: July 07, 2006, 11:10:47 AM »

Quote from: "only1"
Okay... like Turtle said, he was just trying to show that we can think about the positives of the system as well as all the negatives being bandied about.


You'll notice in my response to Turtle that there are positives. I'm not nearly as worked up about this as you might think... I was bored and decided to actually respond. smile

Quote from: "only1"
Gaming is hot, and with it being at the tip of technology, I really don't see it as a trend that will disappear anytime soon.


Traditionally, console gaming is only the tip of technology six months before the hardware platform is released. Then PC gaming surpasses it in technology. Sales on the other hand...

Quote from: "only1"
I remember a day when a gaming system actually came with, oh, a GAME!  Now you have to buy your first game seperately.
NES. Mario & Duck hunt. SNES may have as well, however no other console after it was not available as the core itself, IIRC. Oh, and that inflated the cost of the console and stuck you with a title you may not have wanted. There *is* another side to this coin.

Quote from: "only1"
point being...  backwards compatibility is not important is  FALSEmaybe it's not to you, but you don't make up the entire gaming market. (and I'm using you as a generality, the reader, not any specific person)


How many titles are important to you in backwards compatibility? Are you still playing Battle Arena Toshinden? How about Twisted Metal one? Kings Field? Maybe for nostalgia; the point I was making is that the BC functionality of PS3 is irrelevant. It may help with transition; it ultimately gives buyers some "warm and fuzzy" initially, but you (specifically) are a hardcore gamer. (the fact that you are in a forum on a gaming website lets me make this assumption).

Sports games are the most popular in the gaming world. I don't play many of them. They get released every year. There is a new version every year. How many people Play Madden 97 over their Madden '07 ? I'm not disputing the convenience of BC, I'm pointing out how insignificant it is compared to the rest of the features. It's like the bonus crap on DVDs. How often do you go through the directors commentary? If you do, how many of your family members do this? Would you consider yourself a hardcore person?

How much do you think that directors commentary made in buying that version of the movie; or was it a "bullet point" on the back of the -collectors edition-? The only bullet points I go for are deleted scenes, alternate endings and tech specs of the movie itself.

 
Quote from: "only1"
again, I've heard it's no big deal.  Why, because your X-Box 360 doesn't dupport HD-DVD nor Blu-Ray? [...] Blu-ray's hold as much as 25+gigs of info.  that's huge.  think of how amazing the games 2 years from now may be. \ sure, the machine itself will have to support what the developers want to do, but we could see some amazing stuff.  Hell, I'm just excited at the depth of  Smackown Vs Raw in the future might be.  Endless storyline possibilites, libraries of wresters, whole arenas to take the action into, not to mention licensing out certain arenas.  Blue-ray will offer a lo[t]... even if the platform fails for the home movie market, the game developers will still be able to utilize it.


Someone has to WRITE that data. Not just throw 1's and 0's on the disk. Is it a bad thing to have more available space? No. Is it worth paying a premium for one floppy disk worth of data inside a box made for a refrigerator? No.

We ARE talking about 9GB disks man. 9. It's not a palty amount, considering in 2010 the expected game growth is to 7GB. Unless the bluray player reads from the outside in, there's no performance benefit (as the outer rim of any rotating disk media is the most efficient track... lower DATA : RPM ratio). They may do this (the Xbox1 did). Who knows? That's why I left BluRay off the "positives" list in my response to Turtle. We're paying for BluRay; we don't know if there is a benefit to the gamers, other than potential to not having to switch disks.
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« Reply #41 on: July 07, 2006, 11:14:13 AM »

Quote from: "Purge"
Quote from: "Turtle"
So Purge, CR, both of your have good points, but all in all I see this as heavily opinion based that really depends on what features that you, personally, place more emphasis on.


You're upset that your thread is getting attention? :lol:

PS3's good points are as of yet uncountable. The only things we know are:

PS1, PS2 games are playable.
gyro control, without rumble
Will play great CGI movies (go, go Metal Gear Solid!)
has WiFi out of box (which is a plus)
Has a lot of horsepower potential, with enough programming effort. (subjective at this point)


I thought WiFi out of the box was only on the "rape my with a baseball bat" $600 version.

It is tough to think of the positives of a system that at this point is nothing more than a spec sheet.  I can't say the games look good because we have no idea what was actually being shown, was it on a PS3, was it actual in game footage?  

BC is important to some, but as a former EB manager, customers who cared about BC were very much in the minority.  At the PS2 launch, my store had 482 preorders, at least 90% of the customers who came in at launch to pick up thier preorder traded in thier PS1 and entire game library to get the PS2, if BC was important to a majority I would think that number of people wholesale trading in would be much lower.

Blu-Ray, from the storage perspective... bigger isn't always better.  When the PS2 launched with DVD we heard a similar argument.  I know of only one or two games that actually come close to filling a DVD at this point.  But hey at least we can now play games, and I use the word play lightly, where there are more cutscenes than actual gameplay.
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« Reply #42 on: July 07, 2006, 02:03:45 PM »

hey Purge, great responses, all around. I just want to reiterate, I wasn't trying to point out any one poster here, but rather generalization.  But if I'm gonna banter with anyone, at least it's not someone who posts crap like "360 rulz all, Sony iz died"... that's what I like about this board, some well-thought responses and, from what I've seen, very little flaming.  What do I know, though, I've only been registered a couple months and stick pretty much to the console section, so I may be way off base  smile


Quote

How many titles are important to you in backwards compatibility? Are you still playing Battle Arena Toshinden? How about Twisted Metal one? Kings Field? Maybe for nostalgia; the point I was making is that the BC functionality of PS3 is irrelevant. It may help with transition; it ultimately gives buyers some "warm and fuzzy" initially, but you (specifically) are a hardcore gamer. (the fact that you are in a forum on a gaming website lets me make this assumption).


know what, one word you used summed up EXACTLY what I was trying to get at... D'OH!
***TRANSITION***
when going from the old system to the new system, it's great to have a huge library of games at your disposal.  If I have Madden 07 on PS2 when I get my PS3, I might as well continue to play it until the 08 comes out.  It's that interim while building your library that the backwards compatibility has the real importance.  I still don't believe it's a non-factor as I know that a lot of people, casual gamers, will be looking at it.  Realistically, though, after a year that library of games should have dwindled down as games were sold/traded and games for the new console were purchased.

As for me being a hardcore gamer.  Meh.  I don't really consider myself one.  sure, I'm a 30 year old man who plays video games... but that's true for quite a bit of people from my generation.  I know more about gaming than a casual gamer, like, say, my brother, who only has a PS2 in his home because he has kids, but still enjoys playing games.  I detest paying full price for games when I can usually catch them at a great price when blockbuster clears out all the excess copies of previously played games 6 months after release.  
It's funny, but I actually play my NES more than y PS1 games that I still own.  
I guess the whole BC issue can be put to rest by those who say just download emulators and the games and you can play them anytime... I know a guy who's X-Box has damn near every NES, SNES game ever and the emulator for them.  But, I don't know, that seems to take the fun out of it.  
In fact, I wouldn't even have known about this board if it wasn't for Ron's (Knightshade dragon) wife... we went to school together and that's how I found out about it.  Obviously I've enjoyed it here and have more than a passing interest in games, but I wouldn't go so far as to say hardcore gamer.

Quote
Sports games are the most popular in the gaming world. I don't play many of them. They get released every year. There is a new version every year. How many people Play Madden 97 over their Madden '07 ? I'm not disputing the convenience of BC, I'm pointing out how insignificant it is compared to the rest of the features. It's like the bonus crap on DVDs. How often do you go through the directors commentary? If you do, how many of your family members do this? Would you consider yourself a hardcore person?


Man, am I the biggest retard, or what?  playing into the sports game thing... like I said before, I don't like playing full price on games... and sports games are redundant, IMO.  I don't need to get the new Madden every year.  Nor any other sports new year release.  Every few years is more than fine with me... unless there's a major change I MUST have... and that's usually more roster driven than gameplay.  And then there''s EA's college football 2000.  It's a PS1 disc, and I have such the dynasty going I still go back to it every so often.  Dork, I know.  
And, yeah, I am the dork that listens to commentary... though I rarely listen to director commentary... I much prefer actors commentary... more personality  biggrin  I'll listen to any commentary with The Rock (Walking Tall and Rundwon being absolutely worth the price of the DVD itself!)... and Kevin Smith... and the resident evil movies... and... and... and  biggrin


Damn... sorry to Turtle... didn't mean to jack the thread.  And, Purge, don'ttake this as me just disagreeing with you... I actually rally enjoy this topic...
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« Reply #43 on: July 08, 2006, 12:44:13 AM »

I used to be interesting in JRPGs a while back, but these days I'm finding almost all of them to be the same thing in terms of story, that's something that bugs me.  Also the characters are all the same shade of childish people of any age put into situations that should be mature.

One thing I like about western RPGs that don'ty copy JRPGs is that the characters are often more mature.  These are games like Baldur's Gate, Planescape Torment, Knights of the Old Republic, etc...

However, in defense of the JRPGs, it's hard to keep that kind of maturity across a translation and different cultures.

So, the PS3 doesn't interest me much in that regard.

Even more thread derailment.  Tongue
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« Reply #44 on: July 08, 2006, 01:42:47 AM »

Quote from: "unbreakable"
Backward compatibility is a pretty new thing, historically speaking.  Until the PS2, were ANY consoles backward compatible?  (add-on adaptors don't count).

The Atari 7800 (released in 84) was backwards compatible with the Atari 2600
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« Reply #45 on: July 08, 2006, 02:07:45 AM »

I know this has been mentioned, and I'm not trying to be a smartass.  But if you are interested in PS2 games why wouldn't you just keep the PS2?  

Space concerns?  The PS2 is smaller than most set top DVD players.  
Price?  Would you not buy that $600 PS3 without getting $60 off from the PS2 trade in?  

I do still play some Xbox games. But that is why I kept my Xbox. To me there has always been something fundamentally wrong with trading in a console I paid $200 for and getting $60 in value back.
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« Reply #46 on: July 08, 2006, 04:22:32 AM »

Quote from: "denoginizer"
I do still play some Xbox games. But that is why I kept my Xbox. To me there has always been something fundamentally wrong with trading in a console I paid $200 for and getting $60 in value back.

It's this thought that keeps me from ever trading in any games I purchase, too. So...I can get $10 for a $50 game? And then you'll turn around and sell it for $39.99? Why should I help you that much?
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« Reply #47 on: July 08, 2006, 05:17:37 AM »

Quote from: "denoginizer"
I know this has been mentioned, and I'm not trying to be a smartass.  But if you are interested in PS2 games why wouldn't you just keep the PS2?  

Space concerns?  The PS2 is smaller than most set top DVD players.  
Price?  Would you not buy that $600 PS3 without getting $60 off from the PS2 trade in?  

I do still play some Xbox games. But that is why I kept my Xbox. To me there has always been something fundamentally wrong with trading in a console I paid $200 for and getting $60 in value back.


Connections are an issue.  Even with a component switchbox I've almost maxed out all of my connections with four current consoles, a DVD player, and a satellite set top box.  

And space does become a concern because, for me, it isn't "just the PS2".  I also still have my Xbox hooked up and if Nintendo wasn't offering BC with the Wii then that would be staying too.  So, yeah, six consoles is rather a lot of room to have to keep along with a lot of connections and lots of controllers to keep around.  And I still play PS1 games so add that to the mix if it wasn't covered too.  

And while I have a separate gaming room, based on the recent GT poll most people have their consoles hooked up in their living room and you can bet I'd get an earful from my wife if I had too many of those things displayed out there.  

And one final issue- these things don't last forever.  My Xbox has an original Thompson drive and it's been giving me intermittent issues for the last year.  When it finally kicks the bucket I'll be faced with deciding whether to outlay another $100 or otherwise forgo playing my original Xbox games.  There is a certain sense of security gained from the feeling that I shouldn't need to continue to rebuy old consoles if I want to continue playing my old games.  

So it all adds up to making BC an incredibly attractive feature for me.  Is it a deciding factor for whether I buy a console or not?  No.  But it might be a deciding factor for when I get a console- supporting BC makes it that much more likely that I'll buy a console early in its lifespan.
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« Reply #48 on: July 08, 2006, 06:37:46 AM »

Quote from: "Purge"
Quote from: "only1"
I remember a day when a gaming system actually came with, oh, a GAME!  Now you have to buy your first game seperately.
NES. Mario & Duck hunt. SNES may have as well, however no other console after it was not available as the core itself, IIRC. Oh, and that inflated the cost of the console and stuck you with a title you may not have wanted. There *is* another side to this coin.


GameCube came with Super Mario Sunshine.
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« Reply #49 on: July 08, 2006, 10:38:44 AM »

Purge, where is it that you are seeing games won't need that extra space?
Because everything I'm reading is that they are already running out of space on the standard DVD format, and with graphics always improving, 3 years from now it can only get worse..

I'd have to point you to:

Quote
Team Ninja chief Tomonobu Itagaki has expressed concerns over the lack of storage space on the Xbox 360's DVD media.

Speaking to Japanese magazine, Famitsu, Itagaki has expressed concerns over the limited capacity DVD offers in the era of High Definition. He feels developers will struggle to fit High Definition pre-rendered sequences onto the 9GB format, being particularly problematic for Japanese developers who prefer to use pre-rendered over real time cut scenes.

Source: http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/12155

Quote
From Software producer Masanori Takeuchi, who's been working on Enchant Arm, a role-playing game slated to be an Xbox 360 launch title, said developers will also be running into issues of storage space in the next generation. While the Xbox 360 is a next-generation console, Microsoft decided to equip it with a normal DVD reader rather than give it HD-DVD or Blu-ray reading capabilities.

"The volume of data in Enchant Arms won't fit into a single DVD. It's an RPG, so we're thinking it would be inevitable that we release it on two discs," says Takeuchi. "But to be honest, that's even looking grim."

Source: http://www.deeko.com/news.asp?id=541

If you dig around the internet a little (I just got off of work and am tired as hell so I'm a bit lazy right now) you'll see there have been multiple developers saying something along those lines: the old dvd format just isn't going to cut it for next-gen high-def games as space requirements continue to grow.
There was a chart somewhere online that had all the 360 games and how much space they took up (again I'm feeling lazy) but I know more than one of them were above the 5gb mark.
We're going forward in time and techonlogy, so it's only reasonable to believe that space requirements will keep going up.
(I still remember the days when a 4gb hard drive was considered HUGE! You were the King of the block if you had one of those.. now the standard is what, 200gb, if not more?)

Backwards compatiblity is important to me mainly because there's at least 35 PS2 games I have that I plan on keeping around for the next-gen. They aren't just play the campaign, beat it, and you're done types of games.. they are games like Tribes Aerial Assault (my favorite ps2 game of all-time even though it wasn't that popular), Urban Reign, The Warriors, among others, that offer some type of skirmish/instant action mode with the computer so that even when you do beat the campaign, you still have plenty of replayablity left with the skirmish modes.

Sure I could keep my PS2 around (and I even may) but the question I'm asking is, why?
Sony has taken a different stance on BC than Microsoft has, and has committed themselves to it.
I just picked up the latest OPM magazine and read another interview with Sony where they again are throwing their support behind backwards compability for PS1 and PS2 and mentioned people could wait on buying a PS3 for now and keeping playing their PS2's, knowing the software they buy for it will still be good when they do get a PS3.
Yes of course 100% of games aren't going to be BC, that's impossible. The vast majority of ps1 games played on the ps2 without problems though, so I can't see how it'd be any different for the PS3.

Just yesterday I picked up 3 ps1 games (Uprising X, Space Hulk, and Mechwarrior 2) for cheap at gamestop, and I don't need a ps1 to play it.
Especially at launch when launch titles are fairly limited, whether you've already has a PS2 or getting your first playstation console, isn't it at least a little reassuring knowing that you can browse the huge amount of PS2 games and know they'll still play on your new machine?
If BC wasn't important, Sony and Microsoft wouldn't have even bothered with it. The thing is though, it is important.

Quote
Are you still playing Battle Arena Toshinden? How about Twisted Metal one?


Actually, yes I am still playing Twisted Metal! I've got all the titles in the series. (Including the PSP version)  Hell you'll even still catch me playing one of the least popular Xbox games out there - Circus Maximus! I dont know how it ended up on the BC list, but I'm damn glad it did!

Oh and the rumored XBox 360 game that is going to take up 4 discs because they said the old DVD format just didn't have enough space..? On BluRay, you can stick all of that on just one disc and be done with it.

Granted the PS3 isn't out yet as you've pointed out so it's hard to speculate how things will fall into place once the PS3 launches at the end of the year, and the years to follow.. but I know this debate has only got me that much more interested in seeing some charts for the PS3 games released on BluRay and just how much space they're taking up..
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« Reply #50 on: July 08, 2006, 11:52:19 AM »

Quote from: "unbreakable"
Quote from: "Purge"
Quote from: "only1"
I remember a day when a gaming system actually came with, oh, a GAME!  Now you have to buy your first game seperately.
NES. Mario & Duck hunt. SNES may have as well, however no other console after it was not available as the core itself, IIRC. Oh, and that inflated the cost of the console and stuck you with a title you may not have wanted. There *is* another side to this coin.


GameCube came with Super Mario Sunshine.


Check out the bold. You could buy the system without a game. Also, that was it's primary selling option. Most people bitch nowadays when bundles are forced on them (XBOX1 initially forced bundles; they caved due to customer demand)
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« Reply #51 on: July 08, 2006, 12:08:16 PM »

Quote from: "corruptrelic"
Quote
Itagaki has expressed concerns over the limited capacity DVD offers in the era of High Definition. He feels developers will struggle to fit High Definition pre-rendered sequences onto the 9GB format, being particularly problematic for Japanese developers who prefer to use pre-rendered over real time cut scenes.


Quote
"The volume of data in Enchant Arms won't fit into a single DVD. It's an RPG, so we're thinking it would be inevitable that we release it on two discs," says Takeuchi. "But to be honest, that's even looking grim."


Backwards compatiblity is important to me mainly because there's at least 35 PS2 games I have that I plan on keeping around for the next-gen. Yes of course 100% of games aren't going to be BC, that's impossible. The vast majority of ps1 games played on the ps2 without problems though, so I can't see how it'd be any different for the PS3.

Granted the PS3 isn't out yet as you've pointed out so it's hard to speculate how things will fall into place once the PS3 launches at the end of the year, and the years to follow.. but I know this debate has only got me that much more interested in seeing some charts for the PS3 games released on BluRay and just how much space they're taking up..


First of all, they are building pre-rendered sequences. How much space do you need for 2 hours of movie? So how much of the game are you getting? If they want to fill up disks with FMV, then by all means go for it. It isn't game though... it's filler. It's support for games, it's not games itself. Granted it is nice, and can be done well, but I'm not a big fan of watching games. (MGS I'm lookin' at YOU). You'll also note that the western devs aren't crying so loud about space.

Now, in running a risk of having multiple disks is a bad thing? How many PS2 games, how many PS1 games have been multi-disk?

The cost offset to include a new, and market untested technology in a strategic product is far too risky IMHO. I would have LOVED HD-DVD in the 360, but I understand and can respect their decision to release what they did. I wouldn't be surprised if MS releases a 200GB HD in the near future and lets devs get their FMVs installed on the HD to overcome the "i don't wanna swap disks" complaint. I have no problems changing media. I just think about how many seconds of effort that is to add up to 600USD. slywink

BC is a transition benefit; most people, once having the new console, will move forward. You said so yourself ... we're moving into the future. I'd rather play GRAW than RS6 3.

Also, to Kevin Grey... move your older consoles to a secondary television, or get one of those play-switch devices and get yerself 4 of them to daisychain. Tell your wife that a cablemonster has infested your livingroom, and they can't go in there anymore. smile
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« Reply #52 on: July 09, 2006, 04:52:11 AM »

you guys are missing the big picture big time.  

Blue Ray has locked up all the movie studios but one. The first generation players are now hitting the streets

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7763823&type=product&id=1142288677966&DCMP=KNC-TLC&ref=30&loc=KW-0920

They cost just themselves 1000 bucks.

Now Sony can offer a blue ray player to go along with the follow up with the most popular game system in the world BOTH for just 600 bucks.  ITS A GREAT DEAL.

 HI DEF DVD is the next huge thing, everyone will want one, and now sony gives people a rational for forking out 600 bucks.  ( 300 for a game player 300 for a digh def dvd machine rational, I know it works for me, I am getting one)
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« Reply #53 on: July 09, 2006, 05:06:59 AM »

Quote from: "Purge"
Check out the bold. You could buy the system without a game. Also, that was it's primary selling option. Most people bitch nowadays when bundles are forced on them (XBOX1 initially forced bundles; they caved due to customer demand)


I completely forgot the GC launched without a bundled game, but I thought back to the package I got... it came with two free games, and I grabbed a GC with SMS, but I believe they intended the deal to be without the SMS bundle.
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« Reply #54 on: July 09, 2006, 01:48:24 PM »

Quote from: "tcweidner"
HI DEF DVD is the next huge thing, everyone will want one, and now sony gives people a rational for forking out 600 bucks.  ( 300 for a game player 300 for a digh def dvd machine rational, I know it works for me, I am getting one)

I'm not sure it's as big as you think it is. Why? How long did it take DVDs to become the 'accepted standard' over VHS? It took years.

Now, you have two standards. The bright person is gonna wait until the companies stop fighting over the format, and not get either one of them.

Sony on the other hand, insists that they're gonna be the winner, and they're risking pretty much their entire company on that (and an overpriced $600 Blu-Ray player that can play video games on the side).
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« Reply #55 on: July 09, 2006, 03:09:13 PM »

Quote from: "Destructor"
Quote from: "tcweidner"
HI DEF DVD is the next huge thing, everyone will want one, and now sony gives people a rational for forking out 600 bucks.  ( 300 for a game player 300 for a digh def dvd machine rational, I know it works for me, I am getting one)

I'm not sure it's as big as you think it is. Why? How long did it take DVDs to become the 'accepted standard' over VHS? It took years.

DVD actually surpassed VHS pretty quickly, but yeah, I doubt HD will be adopted anywhere as quickly.  It seems a lot like SACD/DVD-Audio - most people don't have the equipment to take full advantage of the higher quality sound, and/or regular CD audio is "good enough" (especially when people have been trained to accept a 128kbps iTunes file as "CD quality").

HD is the future - no doubt about that.  But the PS3 won't be the device to put it in everyone's home.  It's too much, too soon.
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« Reply #56 on: July 10, 2006, 09:21:43 AM »

i thought it was quite quick for DVDs to out VHS....i bought my first DVD in '99(ghostbusters by the way)
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« Reply #57 on: July 10, 2006, 11:08:42 AM »

Quote from: "Laner"
Quote from: "Destructor"
Quote from: "tcweidner"
HI DEF DVD is the next huge thing, everyone will want one, and now sony gives people a rational for forking out 600 bucks.  ( 300 for a game player 300 for a digh def dvd machine rational, I know it works for me, I am getting one)

I'm not sure it's as big as you think it is. Why? How long did it take DVDs to become the 'accepted standard' over VHS? It took years.

DVD actually surpassed VHS pretty quickly, but yeah, I doubt HD will be adopted anywhere as quickly.  It seems a lot like SACD/DVD-Audio - most people don't have the equipment to take full advantage of the higher quality sound, and/or regular CD audio is "good enough" (especially when people have been trained to accept a 128kbps iTunes file as "CD quality").

HD is the future - no doubt about that.  But the PS3 won't be the device to put it in everyone's home.  It's too much, too soon.


I guess my hearing isn't very good, but I can't tell a difference between iTunes and a CD.
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« Reply #58 on: July 10, 2006, 01:18:07 PM »

Quote from: "Arkon"
I guess my hearing isn't very good, but I can't tell a difference between iTunes and a CD.

My hearing is good and the differences between a 128kbps encoding and a CD are very minor, at best.
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« Reply #59 on: July 10, 2006, 02:05:52 PM »

The difference really doesn't exist there at all. That's the point.
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« Reply #60 on: July 10, 2006, 05:25:41 PM »

Quote from: "Destructor"
Quote from: "Arkon"
I guess my hearing isn't very good, but I can't tell a difference between iTunes and a CD.

My hearing is good and the differences between a 128kbps encoding and a CD are very minor, at best.


 a little off-topic, but the 128bit iTunes ain't the same as 128bit ripped MP3. The AAC is higher quality. There's a few new formats that are "lossless".
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