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Author Topic: PS3's good points?  (Read 5090 times)
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Turtle
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« on: July 04, 2006, 11:13:55 PM »

Not trying to be a fanboy, but how about a discussion of the PS3 that goes over some of its good points along with the bad points?

The biggest bad is the price.  $600 is just plain insane and I suspect most people just won't buy it until it drops to at least $400-$450.  That said, it does seem like you get a bit more for the system.  There is the blu-ray player, but that's not really a big deal.  The system does come with a hard drive standard.  I won't even discuss the cut down $500 version, though.

One of the selling points for me is free online play.  No need a subscription just to play games online.  Xbox Live costs roughtly $50 a year, or more if you pay monthly.  That means in two years you've already added a lot to the initial cost of the system.

Backwards compatability is also big for me, as there's a large number of good PS2 games I didn't get to play, since they're including the PS2 hardware in the PS3, support is almost guaranteed.  At least it's nice to see that a company is taking the time to make sure their BC works instead of promising and not.

I can't speak for the PS3's game library, but usually Sony has a good selection of games.  There's already a few must haves announced and since games are free play online, their lifespan is extrended by that.  Not to mention the older PS2 library (and hopefully you can play those online too).

Can't think of many other good points.  There were rumors of other features and such, but those are still just rumors.  All in all, these good points don't overcome the big $600 price tag for me, but I may wait for the $500 price point instead of the $400 price point if the system delivers.  And that's hoping it isn't underpowered like the PS2.
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« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2006, 11:28:52 PM »

I hate to turn this into another "what's wrong with the PS3" thread, but I see a couple points of contention with what you said.  

As far as I know there has been no confirmation of complete hardware-based backwards compatibility.  This would certainly be a plus for the legion of PS2 owners if it does happen.  

Free online play does sound good, but it is another feature which has very few details and is unproven beyond individual games such as Socom.  While I am not a big fan of paying for XBox Live, they provide many features and a system-wide integration which argueably can not be implemented in Sony's proposed open architectural plans.

The one thing that it does potentially have going for it is the larger storage capacity of the Blu-Ray discs, which will come in handy in the future with the continually increasing size of art assets in games.
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« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2006, 11:50:54 PM »

Quote from: "EngineNo9"
I hate to turn this into another "what's wrong with the PS3" thread, but I see a couple points of contention with what you said.  

As far as I know there has been no confirmation of complete hardware-based backwards compatibility.  This would certainly be a plus for the legion of PS2 owners if it does happen.  


Since I already own a PS2 and an Xbox, BC doesn't mean anything to me.  But Sony will certainly have an advantage there.

Quote from: "EngineNo9"
Free online play does sound good, but it is another feature which has very few details and is unproven beyond individual games such as Socom.  While I am not a big fan of paying for XBox Live, they provide many features and a system-wide integration which argueably can not be implemented in Sony's proposed open architectural plans.


I have heard that Sony will be using Gamespy's technology for online multiplayer.  Which scares the hell out of me.  I'll gladly pay $50 per year for a service that works and has very few negatives at this point.

Quote from: "EngineNo9"
The one thing that it does potentially have going for it is the larger storage capacity of the Blu-Ray discs, which will come in handy in the future with the continually increasing size of art assets in games.


I can just see it now.  Metal Gear Solid 6 with 18 hours of cutscenes.  :wink:
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« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2006, 11:56:45 PM »

Unless things go really wrong, the PS3 should end up with the largest, most varied library of games available, and plenty of exclusives (although not as many as before, most likely).  Also, the second generation of PS3 games should look considerably better than what the XBox360 will be capable of, again assuming Sony did a good job of designing the system.
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« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2006, 11:59:05 PM »

Well all the discussion about the PS3 and Wii, is crap. People are wasting time, energy, effort, and whatever else.

This is the way I see life in general, when I have it in my hands, I'll let you know.

Right now, everything we know about the PS3 is in writing. We don't even know if the videos or screenshots are from the actual PS3. And most of the writing is lies anyways.

Why don't we focus on the 360-X-Box?

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« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2006, 12:10:29 AM »

Quote from: "EngineNo9"
As far as I know there has been no confirmation of complete hardware-based backwards compatibility.  This would certainly be a plus for the legion of PS2 owners if it does happen.


From what I've read elsewhere, the initial run of PS3's will basically have PS2 hardware inside to ensure backwards compatibility.  The software emulation isn't coming along as quickly as they hoped and won't be done in time.  They hope to eventually do it all in software, but not right away.  Obviously this adds to of the cost of the system.

Found a link.

As for FREE online, well I'm all for it.  I just hope they make some refinements to the current system.  Live does cost money (for online play), but personally I find the cost to be worth it for the ease of use and standardization as well as integration.  I understand the draw of free online, and know it's one of Sony's big selling points, but they simply have to do something with it besides the no-standards free-for-all that currently exists.  And GameSpy is awful.  And owned by IGN.

The big selling point for PS3 is developer support.  That and TRUE backwards compatibility.  I've actually been trading in some Xbox games for the PS2 counterpart.  Things like the Midway/Namco arcade collections, Mega Man/Sonic collections, and Street Fighter Anthology.  Things that I love and know will not change.  I want to be able to play those games forever, and with PS3 I am confident I will be able to.  Like in five years when I can afford one.
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« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2006, 12:16:55 AM »

Quote from: "stiffler"
Quote from: "EngineNo9"
As far as I know there has been no confirmation of complete hardware-based backwards compatibility.  This would certainly be a plus for the legion of PS2 owners if it does happen.


From what I've read elsewhere, the initial run of PS3's will basically have PS2 hardware inside to ensure backwards compatibility.  The software emulation isn't coming along as quickly as they hoped and won't be done in time.  They hope to eventually do it all in software, but not right away.  Obviously this adds to of the cost of the system.

Found a link.


Speculation from a Japanese magazine is not exactly firm data.  As I said, it hasn't been confirmed.
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« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2006, 12:51:47 AM »

I don't really see why they have to confirm it. We know they can do it.

The PS2 did it just fine. I don't see why the bigger, more powerful and all round better system PS3 won't beable to play some Cd's and DVD's.

Of course they will just have to incorprate the PS2 engine. Thats already full backwards compat. with PS1, so just a PS2 Emulator or Engine or Software, whatever, will do the trick.
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« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2006, 04:00:40 AM »

Random thought about the backwards compatibility thing:

In the PS2, there's two lasers (or is it 3...) - one for CDs and one for DVDs.

So in order for full backwards compability, the CD drive will have to have three - Blu-Ray, DVD, and CD. I don't know if this is an issue or not, as I don't have any clue if the current run of HD and/or Blu-Ray players are capable of playing music CDs (as I think they can play DVDs).

Keep in mind that the PS2 was notorious for having one laser fail (normally the DVD one) while the other worked. Just imagine the failure rate if there was 3 inside.

Thoughts? Or am I just over speculating as usual?
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« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2006, 04:20:58 AM »

You could be right, but I dont know.

I've never seen the inside of a PS2.
I dont see why they have seperate lasers, can't they just program one to read all?

If they can't I'll sell them the idea.
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« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2006, 05:21:57 AM »

i have no problems paying 40 for xbox live a year(which is at the moment cheaper than a xbox 360 game)...as all i do is play online with my games

as for sony,have they actually announced that their online play will be free again??....just that last i heard they were doing a friends list the same as microsoft,but microsoft hold all your gamertag friends list and info on their servers......if this is gonna be the same for sony....who is gonna pay for the servers holding the info?...or is that some more money that sony are gonna lose?

as i have said before,FF13 and MGS4 are the only reasons i am even mildly interested in sony at the moment...and both of them are not online(well,at the moment anyway)...gran turismo lost its shine,and grand theft auto came to xbox as well


but yeah,good points.....the only thing i can think of is.... well...i cant!!

blu-ray is a waste,the controller is practiaclly no change...and there are now rumours that games will cost more than 360 and wii games
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« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2006, 11:50:54 AM »

Quote
Since I already own a PS2 and an Xbox, BC doesn't mean anything to me.


A lot of people end up trading in their older system(s) in order to afford the new ones.
And if you've got plenty of cash to spare to have every system out there great, but how about space? I coudn't imagine having an original xbox, the 360, my ps2, and then a ps3, just because Microsoft didn't do backwards compatiblity the right way.
Backwards compability is a big thing for me as well, so I have no problem spending $50 on a new PS2 game knowing full well I'll still be able to play it on the next-gen.
I didnt buy Xbox games until they hit $30 or less not because I didnt want them, but because I knew I'd eventually get a 360 and if it'd play or not was up in the air. (I traded my xbox for $50 store credit towards my 360)

Other than full backwards compability all the way back to the playstation 1, some of the other things that have me interested are:

-Web Browser
-All PS3's come with a hard drive
-Blu-Ray DVD player out of the box
-Support for usb mouse/keyboard
-Alleged Linux comes installed on the hard drives (imagine the possiblities)
-Free online gaming (the way it should be)

Really when you total up everything you're getting, it's a pretty good deal. If you bought a 360 at $400 and got the wifi adapter (which comes on the $600 ps3 model) you're at $500 already, plus your subscription to xbox live at $50.. you're at $550.

I'm no fanboy either I have a 360 and am playing the hell out of it, but there are just some things I wish Microsoft would have done differently. In 2 or 3 years when the storage demand for games goes up and the 360 is still using regular DVD's while the PS3 is giving developers upwards of 50gb to work with, does that mean the 360 is going to suffer in quality games, or that they'll have to come on multiple discs?
I understand that right now standard DVD is fine for games, but Microsoft had kept saying they "Future-proofed" the xbox 360, but really, did they?

So next-gen the only two systems sitting on my entertainment will be my 360, and then the ps3 which I'll be trading my ps2 in towards as well. I just dont have that kind of space to keep all these systems on my entertainment center.
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« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2006, 12:57:12 PM »

Quote
There is the blu-ray player, but that's not really a big deal


Probably the most untrue statement made about PS3.  It may be true for Turtle... and it's likely true for a lot of gamers, but I'm sure Sony is looking at getting some sort of crossover market of people not wanting to spend the $1000 on their basic model Blu-Ray player coming out just days before PS3.  Me, I've been sold on Blu-Ray for a while and have started picking up BR movies so that when I get the PS3, I'm ready to go.  But I've also decided to wait until likely next summer to even try to buy the PS3.  Let the first couple generations go through and get any bugs worked out.  I'm certain, though, that BR won't be a factor until the 2nd generation of games hit for PS3.  Remember the PS2 launch titles?  Maybe 2 of them were DVD format.

The Blu-Ray feature also plays directly into the price war.  Yes, 360 is cheaper.  It will play HD-DVD's (originally supposed to come with it in early planning, but that got scrapped)... but you need an add-on for the HD-DVD player that, likely, will make it plus the cost of 360 equal to, if not more than PS3.     So, if you're strictly a gamer and on't care about movie playback, I guess the edge goes to 360... however, if the added bonus of HD-DVD or Blu-Ray playability maters, PS3 is likely the better choice... granted, though, that's not taking into account the HD-DVD versus Blu-Ray format and what your preference may be.  



as far as the free online gameplay goes, that'll be good if it's done right.  I really don't mind much of PS2's online playability... but I hate having to come up with a new profile everytime I take a new game online.  If Sony's servers keep your profile and you can go right into the game, all tge better.  What I hate most is paying for playing online.  I've already paid for the game, why the hell should I pay again???  It's worse for the PC MMORPG games, but it irks me.

The worst thing I see about PS3 right now is nothing hardware related... but the price of games.  It truly scares me that it was said games may be as much as $100.  As said in that thread, I thought the point of going to a digital format such as disc was a much cheaper production cost.  Yes, in the long run we are not paying for the disc, but for the developers time, software, software development, etc.  I could see if gaming was still cartridge based... but, it's not!   Hell.. GameCube games came out average $10 more than it's X-Box/PS2 counterparts, mostly as at the time Nintendo has become a niche market and with a much different format, but even they adapted and the prices evened out.  If Sony wants to take advantage of the PS3's plusses, they need to find a way to drop those prices.  Hell, maybe for the first generation games charge $40, but games that are true Blu-Ray format, charge the higher price ($60?).  

One major plus people have been playing as a minus is it's release date.  Yes, it's around the same time as Wii, at least tentatively.  A lot of talk is that 360 got the jump and even Microsoft execs played that as 360 came out first, it was the leader and the better system.  Well, Sony did the same thing for PS2, and it largely has been deemed one of the weaker systems.  Nintendo and Microsoft were ble to get a good look at PS2 and tweak their systems just that much more.  GameCube probably has the best processing speed of all 3 systems, X-Box is a winner of the previous console war, despite Sony putting more PS2's into homes than any other system.  Now, 360 has been out the better part of a year and Sony has had time to make adjustments.  They just better have made the right adjustments, or they'll lose more of the hardcore gamers to Microsoft.  What's funny, though, is I've mentioned this to people and while they acknowledge PS2's early jump into the market, they dismiss it for the 360 and the next gen consoles.  History shows us otherwise.
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« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2006, 01:33:31 PM »

In my opinion the PS3 has very little good points.  The price is assanine.  Free online play... no thanks, what I saw with the PS2 sucked, there is no way they can have the infrastructure needed to do good online play like Live and still be free.  Blu-Ray... let me copy and paste a brief history of Sony proprietary Media posted by Bill Harris on his blog...

Quote
Good grief, I can't believe I didn't think of this sooner.

I've been missing something obviously about Sony. Staggeringly obvious.

Take a look at the admittedly incomplete list of proprietary devices or formats that Sony has introduced in the last fifteen years or so.

Mini-Disc (1991)--custom disc format, and used ATRAC audio compression, which is proprietary.
Sony Dynamic Digital Sound (1993)--a competitor to the Dolby Digital 5.1 standard.
Multi-Media Compact Disc (1994)--Sony's proprietary format for high-density optical storage, developed in conjunction with Phillips. Negotiations merged this format and Toshiba's Super Density disc format into what would become DVD.
Music Clip (1999)--Sony's first digital player, used ATRAC audio compression.
HiFD (1998)--a competitor to Iomega's Zip drive.
Memory Stick (1998)--proprietary memory device as a competitor to SD and Flash memory.
Super Audio CD (1999)--an optical disc format with higher fidelity than the CD.
PSP (2004)--Uses Universal Media Disc (UMD) media, a proprietary media format.

It's not really accurate to say that Sony's MMCD failed, because they (correctly) negotiated to avoid a format war. With all the rest, though, at least in the U.S, it's a long string of failed attempts to establish new formats. All right, the PSP isn't a failure, but using UMD's as a new format for movies has definitely failed.

To the best of my knowledge, the last time Sony introduced a format that became the de facto industry standard was the 3.5" diskette--in 1983.

So if you wanted to look at one Sony product area that has been overwhelmingly successful, what would it be? Playstation, of course. Playstation has been overwhelmingly successful. And both the original Playstation and the PS2 have one important feature in common: a non-proprietary disc format.

Think this is just a coincidence? I don't. Sony has been trying to strong-arm formats down our throat for a long time. And in the U.S., at least, they've failed miserably for almost twenty-five years.

Oh, and one other little thing. If you look at the products in that list, they were all more expensive than the competition. More expensive and using a new format that was proprietary to Sony.

Here's the thing: when you're in a format war, and your hardware is, without exception, more expensive, then the odds are very high that you are going to lose. That doesn't mean that the other format won't lose as well (just look at SACD and DVD-A for an example), but that is small satisfaction.


Games... the only thing the PS2 had that I couldn't play on my Xbox was RPGs.  This generation I expect to see many more RPGs on the 360.  

I hate the PS2 controller, so I will likely hate the PS2 err new and improved PS3 controller.

The built in hard drive is a good idea but will depend on developers utilizing it.  The Sony name is a good thing, but could quickly bite them in the butt if the morons in the higher ups keep opening thier mouths.

All in all, E3 left me with no desire to buy a PS3.
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« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2006, 01:33:37 PM »

You can grill tasty burgers inside and knock out the fat?
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« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2006, 01:41:32 PM »

Well if Blu-Ray wins it will be a very good point for the PS3.  

Other than that...it should look better in the 2nd and 3rd generation games since it has more horsepower.  



What confuses me is that Sony officials keep talking about the potential of the PS3.  What potential?  It will be able to play movies and play video games.  That is it.  It won't be a DVR, a router, or control the thermostat in my house.    While it may do those two things extremly well I don't see how it has more "potential" than the 360 or any other game console.
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« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2006, 01:43:15 PM »

Well, I'm glad people aren't all seeing the downsides to the system.

I guess it all depends on how well the system actually handles things on release day.

All those other features that they tout the potential of the system for are basically rumors.  It's the things like the linux installation and such that give the impression that it's more than just a game console.
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« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2006, 03:27:25 PM »

I hope it can clean my bathroom.  Geez I hate cleaning the bathroom.
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« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2006, 03:38:37 PM »

<kaz> RIDGE RACER!!!!!!!!! </kaz>

The PS3 has a little more horsepower, but it's harder to get at since it's so much more split up.  Multithreaded programming is a headache like you wouldn't even believe.  It's definitely not an Xbox/GameCube level of disparity between the 360 and PS3.  On both systems, the people who best exploit the available power will be the ones with the best looking games.  360 developers are way ahead of PS3 developers in that regard for the obvious reasons.  You will see amazing things on them both.
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« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2006, 04:00:10 PM »

Quote from: "corruptrelic"
I coudn't imagine having an original xbox, the 360, my ps2, and then a ps3, just because Microsoft didn't do backwards compatiblity the right way.


I don't know why it would be MS's fault that you have a PS3 and PS2 hooked up... slywink As to doing BC "the right way" how would you suggest they do it? re-license the technology from NVIDIA, raise the cost of the system considerably for older games? How about absorbing the cost in time and wages for a crack team to actually get an emulator running on their new platform (which most experts in the field said it couldn't be done as the processing power needed was too high).

MS did fine by me. There are some games that I want to play yet, but I can wait.
 

Quote from: "corruptrelic"
Backwards compability is a big thing for me as well, so I have no problem spending $50 on a new PS2 game knowing full well I'll still be able to play it on the next-gen.


Don't count the chickens before they hatch; you could be a very pissed of PS3 owner.

Quote from: "corruptrelic"
(I traded my xbox for $50 store credit towards my 360)


You could have skipped out on 2 PS2 games instead of trading in your box, modded your old xbox1 and turned it into a media center or ran linux on it. (Imagine the possibilities, indeed).

Quote from: "corruptrelic"

-Web Browser
-All PS3's come with a hard drive
-Blu-Ray DVD player out of the box
-Support for usb mouse/keyboard
-Alleged Linux comes installed on the hard drives (imagine the possiblities)
-Free online gaming (the way it should be)

Web browser... you don't think MS is coming out with an IE7 for the 360? I suspect it's something on the books for the Vista launch. I mean, the 360 comes with Media Center already built in... it's not a far stretch.

All PS3's coming with a HDD. Didn't they say the 500 unit will not have the same HDTV connections (only one HDMI) and the harddrive isn't removable? I could be wrong on that, but it's not a big selling point for me.

BluRay DVD support isn't necessarily all that grand, my friend. Just because it's included doesn't mean it's the best implementation. Look at XBOX, XBOX360 and the PS2. The people who own them, do they also have set-top DVD players? This is, IMHO, another future-chicken-counting event.

The keyboard support is there for the 360 as well, and I don't think game designers (for PS3) are going to be incorporating mouse support into the games. My $.02 .

Alleged. Windows IS on the 360. A custom version of it... can you access it and change stuff? Not to the capacity where it is considered useful or accessible, no. I doubt you're going to fire up the PS3 and it's going to give you a BASH or KSH prompt with the ability to access the gaming portion of the system (if at all). Also, the programs you run would need to be designed for the PS3's specific hardware, a much more daunting task than a triple-core gen use platform (as I understand it).

Free online gaming... didn't Sony announce they were doing the exact same thing as live now? You think they aren't going to charge for services? As to Live, the online component (that isn't an EA game) is rock-steady and worth the cost. If you don't do the versus thing, you still have access to the rest of the marketplaces etc. In this regard, I believe you get what you pay for.

Quote from: "corruptrelic"
I'm no fanboy either I have a 360 and am playing the hell out of it, but there are just some things I wish Microsoft would have done differently. In 2 or 3 years when the storage demand for games goes up and the 360 is still using regular DVD's while the PS3 is giving developers upwards of 50gb to work with, does that mean the 360 is going to suffer in quality games, or that they'll have to come on multiple discs?


That would be up to the game developers. Multiple DVDs is less expensive than BluRay or HD-DVD. I remember reading an article somewhere that showed gaming growth on consoles has reached less than 4GB, and projected growth is under 7GB by the end of 2010 (for most games).  I'd rather get up and switch a disk (as long as the point is broken up well) than to pay for something I may otherwise never use.

I'm excited about the lack of rumble in the controller, or the sore wrists from using them to hold the controller at a wierd angle. Or falling off ledges cuz someone nudges me, or I adjust how I sit. Yep. Lookin' forward to that.b[/sarcasm] I think you either need a focus on positioning (such as the Wii) or go with no readout as to hand position.

We'll see; there really is no point in getting worked up about it. I just decided to respond mostly due to the critical nature on MS implementation vs. Sony's (as-of-yet) non-existant implementation. You're comparing apples to unicorns.

(added sarcasm tag to ensure clarity slywink )
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« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2006, 04:38:57 PM »

Quote from: "Purge"

You're comparing apples to unicorns.


Exactly.
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« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2006, 04:48:04 PM »

Quote from: "Darren8r"
Quote from: "Purge"

You're comparing apples to unicorns.


Exactly.



Wow, there is nothing Google Image Search cannot find.
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« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2006, 06:22:28 PM »

Quote from: "wonderpug"
Quote from: "Darren8r"
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You're comparing apples to unicorns.


Exactly.



Wow, there is nothing Google Image Search cannot find.

What the bloody hell? It really is amazing what Google Image Search can find. biggrin
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« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2006, 06:31:18 PM »

Haha, oh wow that made me smile a bit.

Nice searching!
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« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2006, 06:55:22 PM »

"The worst thing I see about PS3 right now is nothing hardware related... but the price of games. It truly scares me that it was said games may be as much as $100."
I think that was just more bizarre Sony talk - I doubt any PS3 game will cost over $60.
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« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2006, 04:49:52 AM »

Apparently 600 is too low for the console ( according to sony execs). They are landing the price between 60-100USD per an interview 2 weeks ago.
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« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2006, 05:48:49 AM »

Quote

Well if Blu-Ray wins it will be a very good point for the PS3.  


Quote

BluRay DVD support isn't necessarily all that grand, my friend. Just because it's included doesn't mean it's the best implementation. Look at XBOX, XBOX360 and the PS2. The people who own them, do they also have set-top DVD players? This is, IMHO, another future-chicken-counting event.


excellent point on the set top players.  I'm actually glad my surround sound system came with one as the PS2 has given up playing DVD's.  



and... and, lordy, that google serch pic was the funniest thing I've seen all day... (well, not the pic itself, but that you found it...)
Also, sometime in the fall, LG is getting ahead on the format war and releasing a combo player that is both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD... which may just be the way I go.
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« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2006, 06:02:10 AM »

Sure, the PS3 wil have BC all the way back to the PS1, but I don't think I could stand the graphics of a PS1 game nowadays- even alot of PS2 games are 'ick'.  It's like buying a top of the line Alienware PC to play Pong.....

Also, did they find some way to work around the memory card issue?  I.E. on the PS2 you need a PS1 memory card if you want to save a PS1 game?
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« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2006, 08:21:22 AM »

Considering the PS2 has a hard drive, I think they'll probably emulate the memory cards there.
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« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2006, 09:46:24 AM »

hope so...they still charge 20 for ps2 memory cards here(more than half of the price of a game...30-35)...and its nearly 5 years old

i think this is one of the reasons why i actually started to hate sony
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« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2006, 12:16:21 PM »

Quote from: "metallicorphan"
i think this is one of the reasons why i actually started to hate sony

Replace Sony with "Console Hardware Manufacturers". They are all on the Apple Computers bandwagon.. charge 2 arms and 3/4 of a leg for a peripheral (such as a memory stick). MS's 64MB cards go for 40+.
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« Reply #31 on: July 06, 2006, 12:17:14 PM »

Quote
As to doing BC "the right way" how would you suggest they do it? re-license the technology from NVIDIA, raise the cost of the system considerably for older games?


It's not our fault (the consumers) that Microsoft coudn't keep a good working relationship with Nvidia. It's pretty clear that from the beginning Microsoft didn't have backwards compatiblity in mind, otherwise we woudn't be having these problems now.

Sony has already committed themselves to supporting backwards compatiblity, the July 06 GameInformer interview with Sony they say that telling their customers "We can only support half of the games for BC" just isn't right. (Obviously a shot at Microsoft.) And again he said it was Sony's commitment to their consumers (BC).
In the same interview he brings up how Sony hasn't had a history of charging to play games online, so he woudn't be suprised if it stayed that way. (Without 100% confirming online play would be free.)

When you're paying $50+ for a game, especially if you think it's going to be a classic, doesn't it feel more comfortable knowing that when the next generation comes around, that you can still play it? That's why on multiplatform games I always chose the ps2 version over the xbox version.
And for those that say BC isn't important, all we need to do is look at the uproar Peter Moore caused when he said something along the lines of gamers didnt care about backwards compatiblity, to which he had to apologize for saying and then saying MS intended to get nearly every game on the BC list.

Quote
You could have skipped out on 2 PS2 games instead of trading in your box, modded your old xbox1 and turned it into a media center or ran linux on it. (Imagine the possibilities, indeed).


Yeah imagine the possiblities, voiding any warranty you have left.. not being able to play online, possibilities indeed  :wink:
Even if I could afford to hold on to every console, my space is limited as it is and as big as the Xbox is it was either keeping that or getting the 360. I chose the 360.

Quote
Web browser... you don't think MS is coming out with an IE7 for the 360?


Nope, I don't. Microsoft has always had the "This isnt a PC" type of stance for the Xbox, why change it now? It took a third party to come up with the mouse and keyboard for FPS's for the original Xbox. Yeah the 360 supports usb keyboard for one game - Final Fantasy Online because it's needed.
I think we're more likely to see the Hilton twins in a hot steamy erotic twin sister lesbian porn flick than we are to see MS release a web browser for the 360..

Quote
All PS3's coming with a HDD. Didn't they say the 500 unit will not have the same HDTV connections (only one HDMI) and the harddrive isn't removable? I could be wrong on that, but it's not a big selling point for me.


The hard drives are removable and upgradable. Yeah only the $600 version will have the HDMI connection but so what? If you have the setup with an HDMI port on your HDTV, you're getting the best. If not, your ps3 is still going to play the same exact games and with Sony telling developers to make games with the hard drive in mind, I see no reason why it won't be taken advantage of because it isn't split up like MS did where developers can't depend on a hard drive being there like they could on the original Xbox.

Quote
BluRay DVD support isn't necessarily all that grand, my friend. Just because it's included doesn't mean it's the best implementation. Look at XBOX, XBOX360 and the PS2. The people who own them, do they also have set-top DVD players? This is, IMHO, another future-chicken-counting event.


I agree with you there, the only thing I like about BluRay (at this point) is the fact that it will allow developers to stick gobs and gobs of content on the discs, not worrying about any kind of bottlenecks in the years to come as games continue to evolve and get bigger and bigger.
I know the head guy at Team Ninja expressed his disapopintment that MS didn't go with HD-DVD and that with DOA4 it was going to use up every bit of space available to them.
If BluRay wins the next-gen DVD format war, hey.. we've already got the player right there in our PS3's. This month's issue of GameInformer also interviews Sony on that too pretty funny how they say there's no way any other format could win over BluRay.

Quote
The keyboard support is there for the 360 as well, and I don't think game designers (for PS3) are going to be incorporating mouse support into the games. My $.02 .


I've got a strong feeling games like Unreal Tournament 2007 [PS3] will add optional mouse and keyboard support, as they did with the Unreal Tournament for the PS2.
Other PS2 games like Red Faction II and Quake 3 had mouse and keyboard support as well - and Sony has no problem with allowing this.

Quote
Free online gaming... didn't Sony announce they were doing the exact same thing as live now? You think they aren't going to charge for services?


I don't think they're going to charge for the "basic" model, which would include playing online for free.
At least from all the interviews I've read, Sony continues to point out their history is not charging to play online without actually directly saying it would be free.
My impression is that what will cost is when you download content, etc. and that's how Sony expects to make their money online, while keeping the online portions of PS3 games in the hands of the developers (as they did with PS2) and it's up to the developer if they charge or not.
I've had Xbox Live in the past and sure I enjoyed playing on it.. but unless it's a MMO game, it's hard to justify paying to play online, especially when you are hosting your own servers anyway.
I know "$5 a month isn't that much" and you're right, it's not that much.. but it's the fact that when it comes to Playstation and PC, you can play virtually the same games online, without having to pay anything.
Now that all PS3's will come with hard drives, if issues like cheating arise in games, it'll be easier for developers to patch their games (unlike the ps2 which had the lousy 8mb memory cards) and keep them up to date without having to worry about space limitations.

Quote
That would be up to the game developers. Multiple DVDs is less expensive than BluRay or HD-DVD. I remember reading an article somewhere that showed gaming growth on consoles has reached less than 4GB, and projected growth is under 7GB by the end of 2010 (for most games).


According to Sony, they seem to think it costs more producing multiple DVD's in High-Def than it does a single BluRay. (GameInformer interview again)
Less than 4GB? Sure some games.. but a lot of the 360 games require more than that, while none of them have reached the bottleneck yet, with how fast technology and graphics are evolving, you don't think in a couple of years the old DVD format isn't going to be a problem for games? Especially if BluRay wins the format war and developers know as Sony says "Their [Developers] imagination is the limit" when it comes to space.

Quote
We'll see; there really is no point in getting worked up about it.


I'm not worked up at all, just pointing out a few of my observations and opinions (since this thread is titled the PS3's highs..) but hey if you are able to read emotions from text on a computer screen, please share the secret!  :wink:

I know it sounds like I'm bashing Microsoft, but I'm not. There's just a lot of things the PS3 is doing that have really caught my interest, and that I wish the 360 would have done as well.
My main one was not going with a next-gen DVD format, followed by the smaller things like a web browser and real BC support.

However you look at it though, I enjoy my Xbox 360 and will continue to support it.. just as I know I'm going to enjoy the PS3 just as much (if not more) but when you compare them side by side on what they both can do, IMO, the PS3 comes out the winner.
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« Reply #32 on: July 06, 2006, 12:28:59 PM »

I don't believe a single word the lying bastards at Sony say until the machine is actually in the store and we know 100% what we are getting.

The HDD was guaranteed in the original Xbox, very few games used it despite developers knowing it was there.  Most console developers are used to not having one, I don't think a majority will all the sudden start using it, although I wish they would.

Technically, the PS2 isn't 100% BC, nor will the PS3.  While it is only a small amount, it is a lie to say it is 100% as there are PS1 games that can not be played on the PS2.

As I pointed out thanks to the blog post by Bill Harris, Sony has a horrendous track record with new media formats and I personally don't see Blu Ray shaking out any differently from any of thier other failed formats.

And your comment about MS not caring enough about BC being evident by them going away from NVidia, perhaps it had more to do with ATI presenting them with a superior product.  But hey, it is the cool kid thing to do right now to say that there is some huge conspiracy within MS that is trying to prevent any sort of BC.
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« Reply #33 on: July 06, 2006, 09:12:19 PM »

Backward compatibility is a pretty new thing, historically speaking.  Until the PS2, were ANY consoles backward compatible?  (add-on adaptors don't count).

Unless you count the GB/GBC/GBA backward compatibility, of course.  But the DS dropped GB/GBC, I believe.  

Everyone has to weigh the costs of keeping backward compatibility.  But it's generally less headaches (for the vendor) to start fresh and not look back.
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« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2006, 02:45:54 AM »

corruptrelic, I've condensed some quotes. Let me know if I've missed a context somewhere
Quote from: "corruptrelic"
Microsoft coudn't keep working with Nvidia. Microsoft didn't have backwards compatiblity in mind, otherwise we woudn't be having these problems now. Sony has committed to backwards compatiblity; Sony [has said] that telling their customers "We can only support half of the games for BC" just isn't right.


Microsoft's XBOX was their first console on the market and they licensed the technology from NVIDIA. Our current situation (where we don't have hardware BC) is due to NVIDIA as the culprit; they were the ones that broke the relationship by breaching contract agreements on sale costs. This time around, MS owns the technology and outsourced some development and manufacturing.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. They've learned and moved on.

As to the "half the games" comment, I'd put forth that A: more than half the games on ANY console (especially the PS2) aren't worth setting up with BC, and B: it's easy to point out the flaws in your competitors product when yours isn't even on the market.

Quote from: "corruptrelic"
Pay $50+ for a game, feel comfortable knowing that next gen can still play it? on multiplatform games I chose ps2 version over xbox.


I have a nice TV and surround system; I prefer risking BC loss than staring at a baboon's ass and listening to it scratch. All of my games that I kept beyond XBOX1 were exclusives. I waited for Burnout Revenge on 360. I had intent, and made my choice. I don't buy xbox games anymore; I have no interest in the limitations it imposes.

Quote from: "corruptrelic"
And for those that say BC isn't important, look at the uproar Peter Moore caused when he said something along the lines of gamers didnt care about backwards compatiblity, to which he had to apologize for saying and then saying MS intended to get nearly every game on the BC list.


First of all, it shouldn't surprise you to know that he's probably right. BC ISN'T important. It's a freakin' bullet point in a spec sheet. Is it critical that you can play your old games on your new system? No, but you might like to play the blockbuster titles. If someone wants to play Metal Dungeon again they can go screw themselves. I didn't buy a new console to play old games. What he said EXACTLY is this
Quote
Nobody is concerned anymore about backwards compatibility. We under promised and over delivered on that.
Taken out of context, that could sound like they weren't still working on it. Far from it. They proved it a week later by releasing more games and improving the existing ones. They have the Live network with stats, they can tell when a 360 is running in compatiblilty mode. Guess what? It's probably single-digit percentages.

Quote from: "corruptrelic"
voiding any warranty, not being able to play online
Even if I could afford to hold on to every console, my space is limited as it is and as big as the Xbox is it was either keeping that or getting the 360. I chose the 360.


You, as a consumer, exercized your right to buy the new product. You took a 200+ retail product and accepted a paltry 50 bux. You cut 75% of your money and gave it to the retailer, rather than putting the old system in a box and holding onto it. Nevermind warranties and Live play; you could have turned it into a fully functional computer (you DID mention interest in the UNIX possibilities on the PS3).

Quote from: "corruptrelic"
MS has always had "This isnt a PC" stance for the Xbox, why change it now? It took a third party to come up with the mouse and keyboard for FPS's for the original Xbox. Yeah the 360 supports usb keyboard for one game - Final Fantasy Online because it's needed.
I think we're more likely to see the Hilton twins in a hot steamy erotic twin sister lesbian porn flick than we are to see MS release a web browser for the 360.


Think about the "media center" functionality, the photos, the music, the videos. The 360 supports the keyboard for more than FFXI, try one out. You can use it to interface with any screen where you can type in anything (messages , text boxes, etc). MS stated with the 360 that if a developer wanted to release games requiring keyboard and mouse that it's an open door that they're willing to go through. The xbox1 adapter was a way for people to bypass the developers intent. I had one, it wasn't that great.

That being said, keyboards SUCK for controls. The only valid point to a keyboard is for complex sets of instructions (even though most people only use some of the following: WSAD,q,e,r,f,shift, space,alt, and maybe the z,x,c and 1-5 rows), or typing. people have trained themselves on the mouse, and thusly they want to keep it as it is familiar to them. I think the Wii has a better way than the mouse.Bigger field means greater accuracy. Wii'll see when it's released.

Quote
only the $600 version will have the HDMI connection but so what? If you have the setup with an HDMI port on your HDTV, you're getting the best. If not, your ps3 is still going to play the same exact games and with Sony telling developers to make games with the hard drive in mind, I see no reason why it won't be taken advantage of because it isn't split up like MS did where developers can't depend on a hard drive being there like they could on the original Xbox.


So what? So WHAT? That invalidates the HD from the movie player portion... BluRay (due to DRM) *requires* the HDMI to play HD content off the drive. Basically, you've bought yourself a dvd player, 480p. Whoop-dee-doo.

Why not go out and buy a rocket car that takes negative energy fuel, and also has a standard 6cyl 3.8litre motor? I mean, hey... if you've got the negative energy fuel it's a ROCKET CAR!! But for most people, it's a car. Or you could buy the lower end model that only comes with the fuel tank for the car, but still has the cost, and parts, for the ROCKET part. Yeah, THAT makes sense.

Quote from: "corruptrelic"
the only thing I like about BluRay (at this point) is the fact that it will allow developers to stick gobs and gobs of content on the discs, not worrying about any kind of bottlenecks in the years to come as games continue to evolve and get bigger and bigger.


You do realize that bloated programs run worse, not better, than efficient ones, right? Do you think they use all of that space effectively? I'm all for bigger and better, but working in the IT industry I see so much waste due to a lack of attention to detail. A single web site that is currently running on a IBM Websphere 5.1 (old, I know) had a heap space of 1GB RAM. With optimization, it now runs better on 72MB of RAM. BETTER. The less it has to address and cache, the better it runs.

The averages I spoke of (regarding games and their space used) were taken from a reliable 3rd party (and not MS directly). I would suggest you go look this up; offering me more space when I don't need it isn't going to get me to buy a product. I'm not buying 4 acres in Florida swampland, thanks.

Quote from: "corruptrelic"
This month's issue of GameInformer also interviews Sony on that too pretty funny how they say there's no way any other format could win over BluRay.


Gee, ya think? Sony, supporting BluRay? slywink I'm just teasing you; I'm sure it was a compelling story. Keep in mind that the ink on that article likely dried before June 1.

Quote from: "corruptrelic"
I've got a strong feeling games like Unreal Tournament 2007 [PS3] will add optional mouse and keyboard support, as they did with the Unreal Tournament for the PS2.
Other PS2 games like Red Faction II and Quake 3 had mouse and keyboard support as well - and Sony has no problem with allowing this.

As stated above, MS doesn't have a problem with it either (as long as it's developer driven). Hell, they put out the Capcom 40 button steel battalion controller. And it sold out , too ! :shock:

Quote from: "corruptrelic"
I don't think they're going to charge for the "basic" model, which would include playing online for free.At least from all the interviews I've read, Sony continues to point out their history is not charging to play online without actually directly saying it would be free.
My impression is that what will cost is when you download content, etc. and that's how Sony expects to make their money online, while keeping the online portions of PS3 games in the hands of the developers (as they did with PS2) and it's up to the developer if they charge or not. I've had Xbox Live in the past and sure I enjoyed playing on it.. but unless it's a MMO game, it's hard to justify paying to play online, especially when you are hosting your own servers anyway.


That's not entirely true. The matchmaking and connectivity is server side; there is a primary host for some games (like halo2). If you look at games like Amped2 (where the host could drop the game and it kept going due to live server control which would then move the host to the next best connection), then you start to realize how great the service is. (there wasn't even a real hiccup when it did this)

The "basic model" that Sony is offering is "try your luck, it might work" service. You get what you pay for; they have no commitment to getting it right, or keeping cheaters off the system, etc.

Quote from: "corruptrelic"
According to Sony, they seem to think it costs more producing multiple DVD's in High-Def than it does a single BluRay. (GameInformer interview again)


And they said BetaMax would win. They spin; it's what they do best.

Quote from: "corruptrelic"
However you look at it though, I enjoy my Xbox 360 and will continue to support it.. just as I know I'm going to enjoy the PS3 just as much (if not more) but when you compare them side by side on what they both can do, IMO, the PS3 comes out the winner.


Your opinion on a non-released product, in my mind, is far to premature. I am taking this whole PS3 / bluray thing with a huge grain of salt. I'd rather be pleasantly surprised than extremely disappointed.

As it stands right now, this thread was to point out the good points of PS3. This is difficult to do as there is so much negative press and the discrepancies between what was promised and now what is coming down the pipe. The "Sony says MS is doing it wrong" comments doesn't fly with me; at least MS is in the ballpark. Where was this spring release? where is this much-touted exclusive console that is a must-have?

I have no doubt that it's a powerful system, but it has yet to come to pass. Praising it's good points is hard enough without hand's on experience; given the misinformation and the constantly changing status makes it about as simple as trying to nail diarrhea to the wall (at room temperature, you clever little people who freeze your runny poop). Just remember, if you miss the nail on the head you're slamming that hammer into a LIQUID. Ew.

Let me put this another way.  

X360type = Apple
PS3type   = Unicorn
if X360type = PS3type ;
   then {
           /usr/scripts/fancy.schmancy.stat.compare.script.sh
           }
fi

I'd write the rest of it, but for some reason, the picture of the kid in the tree keeps popping up.
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« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2006, 04:33:56 AM »

Um, wow.  Yeah, getting a little overboard here guys?

The intent of my post to level the playing field a bit and show that's not all roses on either side.

Both the 360 and the PS3 have strong and weak points, and we'll find out all either when the PS3 comes out.  But, it's been getting a lot of bad press due to PR snafus amongst the sony higher ups,

Lemme just say that if a system is in my price range, and has a good set of games that I enjoy, I'll buy it and games for it, regardless of company and technology behind it.

Right now, the price of the PS3 is out of my range unless I suddenly come into a lot of money.  The games do look good, though.

So Purge, CR, both of your have good points, but all in all I see this as heavily opinion based that really depends on what features that you, personally, place more emphasis on.
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« Reply #36 on: July 07, 2006, 07:42:03 AM »

Quote from: "Turtle"
Right now, the price of the PS3 is out of my range unless I suddenly come into a lot of money.  The games do look good, though.


I was actually looking forward to the PS3 until they priced me out of it.

I made a decision long ago to not pay much money for console systems, games, etc.  If I'm going to spend a lot of money on something, it's going to be my PC, since that gets the most overall use.

I just paid about $900 for a new computer.  So a PS3 costs 2/3rds of that, and the games are going to cost far more than PC games.  And the only thing I would use it for is to play PS3 games, since I play DVDs on my PC.  For somebody with my specific priorities, that isn't acceptable.
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« Reply #37 on: July 07, 2006, 07:57:02 AM »

Quote
think we're more likely to see the Hilton twins in a hot steamy erotic twin sister lesbian porn flick than we are to see MS release a web browser for the 360..



hhhmmmm... so, what you're saying is that the new web browser hit last week?  biggrin

(cmon, it IS the Hilton girls we're talking about here... should have used the Bush girls or something... would have been the better example)



Okay... like Turtle said, he was just trying to show that we can think about the positives of the system as well as all the negatives being bandied about.
In the mid-90's, Sony released a gaming system.  It tore up then-gaming leader Nintendo.  Sony became the big dog.  "Gamers" everywhere loved Sony and hated Nintendo.  the same is true today, with Microsoft's X-box being THE platform of choice for "gamers" and Sony being the stalwart.  But notice that PS2's are still in more households than any other gaming system.  No matter how much the "gamers" love X-Box, they have slowly eroded from the majority to the minority.  Gaming is hot, and with it being at the tip of technology, I really don't see it as a trend that will disappear anytime soon.  

That said, I guess I've always gone against the grain.  I preferred my Genesis over the SNES, preferred my NOMAD handheld over the GameBoy (tell me NOMAD wasn't the smartest gaming creation ever... a handheld that plays your home consoles games?  Ingenious!), and I definitely enjoy my PS2 more than X-box.  I'm leaning to PS3.. thought that I'll wait on until a few generations work out the bugs, looking at buying it next summer.

Now, for a second, just try to step back from your own opinions on this.

I read someone say that Backwards compatibility isn't important.  that's wrong.  It is.  It's important to me, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.  I remember a day when a gaming system actually came with, oh, a GAME!  Now you have to buy your first game seperately (unless it's a special bundle, which even then is higher than ust the system).  Even if I shell out all the dough on a system and game, I'm going to get bored of that one game rather quickly.  It's much nicer to play my existing library on the new system... hell, I could even sell the old system and hopefully be able to guy another game for the new one.  But before backwards compatibility, people would sale their entire game library and system and put that money towards the new one.  Do I play the PS1 games as much as I used to?  No, not at all... I think the last game I played was Incredible Crisis and that was a few months ago (what a crazy game!).  

point being...  backwards compatibility is not important is  FALSE
maybe it's not to you, but you don't make up the entire gaming market. (and I'm using you as a generality, the reader, not any specific person)


Blu-ray  
again, I've heard it's no big deal.  Why, because your X-Box 360 doesn't dupport HD-DVD nor Blu-Ray?  The HD-DVD add-on for 360, that'll only allow gameplay, right?  I've heard nothing about the games being able to utilize it.  Blu-ray's hold as much as 25+gigs of info.  that's huge.  think of how amazing the games 2 years from now may be.  sure, the machine itself will have to support what the developers want to do, but we could see some amazing stuff.  Hell, I'm just excited at the depth of  Smackown Vs Raw in the future might be.  Endless storyline possibilites, libraries of wresters, whole arenas to take the action into, not to mention licensing out certain arenas.  Blue-ray will offer a lo... even if the platform fails for the home movie market, the game developers will still be able to utilize it.


just saying, again, that just because you don't think something is important to you, doesn't mean it;s important to all of gaming...
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« Reply #38 on: July 07, 2006, 10:42:38 AM »

Quote from: "Turtle"
So Purge, CR, both of your have good points, but all in all I see this as heavily opinion based that really depends on what features that you, personally, place more emphasis on.


You're upset that your thread is getting attention? :lol:

PS3's good points are as of yet uncountable. The only things we know are:

PS1, PS2 games are playable.
gyro control, without rumble
Will play great CGI movies (go, go Metal Gear Solid!)
has WiFi out of box (which is a plus)
Has a lot of horsepower potential, with enough programming effort. (subjective at this point)
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« Reply #39 on: July 07, 2006, 10:51:14 AM »

IMO, PS3's strength is that of the fact that XBOX 360 totally failed in Japan. Unless PS3 also fail in Japanese market, we'll likely to see more Japanese console RPG titles on PS3 than XBOX 360. As a fan of JRPG, that is a strong motivation to get PS3 (in addition of XBOX 360 that I have now).

If XBOX 360 was a great success in Japan market then there is no strong reason to get PS3 until the price have come down a lot.
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