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Question: EQ2 or WOW  (Voting closed: October 12, 2004, 02:53:31 AM)
I'll play whichever comes out first - 7 (7.4%)
EQ2 - 19 (20%)
WOW - 69 (72.6%)
Total Voters: 94

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Arkon
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« Reply #80 on: October 15, 2004, 12:10:58 PM »

When you die in EQ2, you drop a spirit shard.  You respawn at the nearest guard post of your choice (if there are more than one in the zone), fully equipped.  You gain XP Debt, and your items take a bit of wear.  Recovering your shard removes about half of the debt.
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YellowKing
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« Reply #81 on: October 15, 2004, 12:16:30 PM »

Quote
Hows the death handled in EQ2? anyone? Because I love the death system in WoW. Thanks for not punishing me for dieing.


When you die you can resurrect at the nearest waypoint (you usually have the option to choose from several in a zone). You keep all your equipment intact, though your items take a durability hit (all weapons, armor, etc. have durability). Items can be repaired, however.

In addition you receive a temporary stat reduction. This stat reduction can be wiped out if you retrieve a "soul shard" from your corpse. The duration and severity of the reduction is dependent on the number of soul shards you have in the world (in other words, having 5 unrecovered corpses will mean you get the max stat penalty every time you die.) So there's some encouragement to retrieve your corpse, but it's not strictly necessary. After a period of time (I believe 3 real life days), your unclaimed shard will return back to you. Recovering the shard also wipes out some of your XP debt.

You also incur an XP debt (ala City of Heroes). Basically this means any XP you earn following the death will be partly used to advance your level and partly used to pay off your accumulated debt. (In effect you're earning only a percentage of full XP until your debt is paid off).

One of the more controversial aspects that was added is that groups share death penalty now. That's right, if a group member dies, every member of the group takes on some XP debt. However, the debt is split evenly among group members, so a person dying in a 6-person group means each member only receives 1/6 of normal XP debt. This feature was added in order to force groups to work as a team and make every member important. It also encourages grouping over solo play, since in a group every person is only receiving a fraction of the debt they would receive from dying solo.

I think it's a good death system that incorporates aspects from a number of previous games. The one thing I'm iffy on is the group shared penalty, but I'll reserve judgment until I get to experiment with it.

The WoW "death" system was a huge disappointment for me. Sorry, but making me take the time to run back to my corpse is only a real penalty in certain areas. Even then I'd just put myself on autorun, point in the general direction of my corpse,  and go get a drink.
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Raven
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« Reply #82 on: October 15, 2004, 12:55:32 PM »

Quote from: "YellowKing"


It also encourages grouping over solo play...



That's not what this beta tester says
Quote
The system works fine when you’re with friends or people you’re familiar with - you know what you’re getting into. But it makes people just not want to do pickup groups at all. People leave groups at the first sign of trouble. It turns what should be a fun social encounter into something that people dread and often forms more animosities than friendships.
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YellowKing
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« Reply #83 on: October 15, 2004, 01:02:41 PM »

Yeah I was referring to grouping with a decent group. I anticipated the problem that tester describes - the stakes are suddenly a lot higher when the stranger you picked up starts clowning around, and it's one reason why I'm still a bit iffy on the whole thing.

I've already got a full group of friends and family lined up so I'm not too worried about it. I hardly ever get involved in pickup groups in these games. If I don't have any friends online I'll solo.
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« Reply #84 on: October 15, 2004, 05:12:10 PM »

Group EXP Penalties?  Jesus, that's the stupidest thing I've heard yet.  Classic SoE nonsense.
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« Reply #85 on: October 15, 2004, 05:23:33 PM »

Quote from: "-Lord Ebonstone-"
Group EXP Penalties?  Jesus, that's the stupidest thing I've heard yet.  Classic SoE nonsense.

Yeah, I'm not happy with that either.

However, if I do play, it'll be with friends only, so I'll have my own group at all times.

And here, if you want a very indepth preview of EQ2 (with most points I agree on as well), visit here:

http://www.jaded-gamer.com/content.php?article.52
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Raven
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« Reply #86 on: October 15, 2004, 05:55:28 PM »

I linked to that preview earlier today, and now the site is down. I think EQ2 fanboys deliberately farked it, so the truth wouldn't get out  Tongue

Basically, he said

group exp penalty was creating an increase in arguments
zones and quest are funneled in such a way as to create choke points
effectively, only three classes in the game
acquiring quest too time consuming and tedious
eq2's famous combat wheel isn't worth the effort

But he said he liked the game anyway.

Of course, this is just one guy's opinion.
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Exodor
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« Reply #87 on: October 15, 2004, 06:02:47 PM »

I"m a casual player who doesn't play often enough to have "regular" groups, so I rely on pick-up groups.

EQ2 I think has eliminated the incentive for pick-up groups - who wants to risk having one moron in the group rack up XP debt?  At best, pick up groups will disband after the first death - and as most people know, death in pick-up groups is kind of a given.

 :cry:
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YellowKing
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« Reply #88 on: October 15, 2004, 06:04:06 PM »

Quote
Group EXP Penalties? Jesus, that's the stupidest thing I've heard yet. Classic SoE nonsense.


It depends on how you look at it. You can say, "Aggh this sucks, now every time somebody dies, I get penalized for it." Or you can look at it as, "Our group will have to have six people die before it equals the penalty I would have gotten had we not had group XP penalty."

Sort of a glass is half empty or half full scenario, and one reason why it's so controversial on the forums right now.

Personally I'd like to see it as an OPTIONAL feature established when you create the group. That way if you're just making a pickup group, you can invite anyone you want and if they die that's their problem and they inherit the full penalty. But if you're playing with friends you can turn group sharing on and everyone benefits from splitting xp debt.

One point I think people are having a knee-jerk reaction to is the fact that they're accruing some XP debt from somebody else's death. However, in terms of the group as an entity, I think it's probably more of a good thing than a bad thing. For instance:

You have a group with one inexperienced player (or maybe he's a mage and dies a lot.) Without group xp penalty sharing, this guy might die 6 times, each time getting further and further in the hole. Over the course of the group's play session, this guy is earning XP at 1/2 the rate everybody else in the group is earning it because he's paying off debt (at 100% death penalty). Pretty soon all his group members have outleveled him. He's now become a burden on the group as a whole.

With group xp penalty sharing, this guy might again die 6 times. However, this time his penalty is being split 6 ways each time he dies, and chances are the group is wiping out that 1/6 portion of debt fairly quickly each time. Over the course of the group's play session, everyone is still on equal footing because they've still earned XP at pretty much the same rate throughout.

City of Heroes has XP penalty, and I found myself constantly lagging behind my teammates because as a defender I ended up dying a lot. It wasn't fun trying to play catch up all the time. The group share feature in EQ2 largely eliminates the problem.

While I still have some reservations about it, I think there is more good than bad. Particularly when you look at EQ2's game philosophy of encouraging (actually almost requiring) teamwork, teamwork, teamwork. The game is going to reward good groups and good players, and it's going to punish bad groups and bad players. Plain and simple.

XP debt, without group sharing, WILL drag down a group. period. I think the people who are calling for group penalty sharing to be eliminated will find themselves paying off MORE XP debt in the long run rather than less.
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Exodor
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« Reply #89 on: October 15, 2004, 06:10:38 PM »

Quote from: "YellowKing"
Personally I'd like to see it as an OPTIONAL feature established when you create the group. That way if you're just making a pickup group, you can invite anyone you want and if they die that's their problem and they inherit the full penalty. But if you're playing with friends you can turn group sharing on and everyone benefits from splitting xp debt.


To piggyback on that idea - what if they had group XP debt optional, but if you opt for it the group gets an XP BONUS?

Kind of a risk vs. reward thing - you can get more XP, but you risk getting group XP debt as well.

 :?:
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shang
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« Reply #90 on: October 15, 2004, 06:19:35 PM »

Hmh, I thought the Group Penalty sounded like a brilliant idea on paper. Don't know how it works on practice, though.
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Raven
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« Reply #91 on: October 15, 2004, 07:08:26 PM »

Not everyone dies in EQ. It's probably no big deal, but I took a monk to 49th before I died, my first time. So close to 50th, so close - sigh.

Now granted, he had FD and he was twinked (j boots at 10th - heh), but still biggrin

The point is that not everyone dies frequently, while others die all the time. For many, the group exp penalty is like some form of mmorpg communism.

I predict the feature will be removed.
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olaf
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« Reply #92 on: October 15, 2004, 07:21:24 PM »

Quote from: "shang"
Hmh, I thought the Group Penalty sounded like a brilliant idea on paper. Don't know how it works on practice, though.

Me too, I liked the idea when I heard about it.  There are certain classes that are by nature more high risk than others in a group setting.  I like that the penalty is shared.

I can see how it would discourage pickup groups though.  Pickup groups generally blow though, so maybe they ought to be discouraged.  They ought to have some kind of Ebay like feedback system for players in MMOs.

olaf
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« Reply #93 on: October 15, 2004, 07:21:46 PM »

Quote from: "Raven"
The point is that not everyone dies frequently, while others die all the time. For many, the group exp penalty is like some form of mmorpg communism.

I predict the feature will be removed.

Well, I do have to admit - the devs have actually been listening to their beta testers (for once), so we'll see what truly happens with this 'feature' as time goes on.
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« Reply #94 on: October 15, 2004, 08:24:22 PM »

Quote from: "Raven"
I linked to that preview earlier today, and now the site is down. I think EQ2 fanboys deliberately farked it, so the truth wouldn't get out  Tongue

Basically, he said

(1) group exp penalty was creating an increase in arguments
(2) zones and quest are funneled in such a way as to create choke points
(3) effectively, only three classes in the game
(4) acquiring quest too time consuming and tedious
(5) eq2's famous combat wheel isn't worth the effort


I numbered the points so I could comment on them:

(1) -- It doesn't take a social engineer to realize that was going to happen.  As if LDON/Exp pickup groups weren't tense enough in EQ, penalizing the rest of the team if one bimbo (even if that bimbo is you) bites the dust is, in 99% of the cases I can imagine, absurd.  Death of a party member in EQ was punished in down time as the fellow either marched back to get his corpse or we spammed the zone for a resurrection or something.  Now you don't only get to deal with down time, you have an exp punishment too!  FUN!

(2) -- Classic SoE mistake.  Even LDON, which was somewhat inspired for the backward-thinking company, suffered from bottlenecking--there was a physical dungeon entrance that had corpses piled around it 24/7, and lord help you if a nasty mob chased a poor player to the entrance, as parties entering or leaving the dungeon could face utter annihilation in the blink of an eye.

(3) -- Classic Everquest mistake.  You have your tanks, your healers, and your DPSes (damage per second-ers).  Tanks take the hits, healers heal the hits, DPSes kill the monster.  Tanks do next to no damage, healers only rez, heal, and meditate, DPSes just pour on the damage.  Everquest diverged from this design in only one case:  the Enchanter, who couldn't do much damage, couldn't heal at all, and sure as hell wasn't a tank.  Instead, Enchanters were there for crowd control (mezzes and stuns), buffs (though Clerics had better AC and HP buffs, Enchanters could haste), and the ever-desired Slow (makes the mob attack slower... only Shamen got a better Slow spell).  Enchanters were probably the most difficult class to play, but were usually welcome in any group and made for a very rewarding experience since any rational action you took noticably helped your group as a whole.

Of course, don't count on seeing any more "outside the box" characters like that.

(4) -- Classic EQ/SoE mistake.  There were three kinds of quests worth doing in EQ:

1.)  Newbie quests.  Gave a ton of exp for your level and usually some starting gear.  (TIME:  Your life until the quests ran dry.)

2.)  Specific item quests.  You researched these online, printed out a guide, entered the game and travelled all around the world camping monsters and NPC spawns, got all the jigsaw puzzle pieces together and hit COMBINE for your Bracelet of Extreme Extremity.  (TIME:  With a guide, a day's worth of gaming.  Without a guide, the rest of your character's life--seriously, these were some fucking obscure quests.)

3.)  Epic quests.  Think 5-10 "Specific Item" quests strung together.  The monsters who dropped the items you needed for epic quests only appeared in raid-like situations.  If you were in a hardcore guild, there was roughly one raid a night.  If you weren't in a hardcore guild, there was roughly two-three raids a week.  If you weren't in a guild at all, tough fucking luck.  (TIME:  Anywhere from 25-100 hours of /played time.  And that's not sitting around time, that's raiding/camping monster/travelling time.  Luck was the deciding factor on how short or how long this process took).

4.)  Worthless quests.  Hey, you spent 50 hours puzzling out this quest!  You get 5 platinum 60 gold 4 silver 20 copper.  (TIME:  If you were smart, 10 minutes to look up the NODROP item you just looted, scroll past the quest it's associated with, check the reward, realize it's totally worthless, click the item, drag it to the DESTROY button, click, click YES to confirm, and go about your day.  If you were stupid and actually tried to figure out the quest in... gasp... Roleplaying fashion, you're fucked.)

(5) -- That's a shame.
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« Reply #95 on: October 15, 2004, 09:52:41 PM »

On a relatively unrelated note, I would say that arguably bards were the hardest class to play as they not only could run CC, they could pull, run clarity, buff group speed/dmg, slow, and DoT mobs depending on the individual situation.  Now IMNSHO THAT is a class created by thinking out of the box.  

Of course I played a bard more than any other class so my view is a little biased slywink
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YellowKing
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« Reply #96 on: October 15, 2004, 11:14:47 PM »

Quote
Now you don't only get to deal with down time, you have an exp punishment too! FUN!


Not really. The dead player will be able to respawn at the nearest waypoint in the zone. Also, spamming for a rez should be pretty uncommon. Clerics have a low level spell that allows them to create a rezzing object they can give to another group member which will rez the cleric should he/she fall in battle. See my previous post on why, for the most part, sharing XP debt is a GOOD thing and people are going to be sorry they ever convinced SOE to take it out (should that happen).

Quote
Tanks take the hits, healers heal the hits, DPSes kill the monster. Tanks do next to no damage, healers only rez, heal, and meditate, DPSes just pour on the damage.


This isn't EQ. The original EQ classes simply don't fit at all into the new scheme. I'm sure the EQ2 classes will have their share of problems, but it's pointless to compare those problems to the old EQ.


Quote
There were three kinds of quests worth doing in EQ:


Again, this isn't EQ. The quest system couldn't be more different.

As for the combat wheel, some people are complaining about it because it's not that great for solo or partner play. That's because it wasn't meant to be a solo or partner play utility - it was meant for full groups, and it was mainly meant for bigger (boss) mobs, raids, etc. The devs have even responded on the boards to this effect. The chief complainers so far seem to be the people who don't understand the purpose of the HO system.
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« Reply #97 on: October 15, 2004, 11:46:13 PM »

Quote from: "Redfive"
On a relatively unrelated note, I would say that arguably bards were the hardest class to play as they not only could run CC, they could pull, run clarity, buff group speed/dmg, slow, and DoT mobs depending on the individual situation.  Now IMNSHO THAT is a class created by thinking out of the box.  


Holy crap that is a lot of jargon!
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« Reply #98 on: October 16, 2004, 12:31:27 AM »

Quote from: "Redfive"
On a relatively unrelated note, I would say that arguably bards were the hardest class to play as they not only could run CC, they could pull, run clarity, buff group speed/dmg, slow, and DoT mobs depending on the individual situation.  Now IMNSHO THAT is a class created by thinking out of the box.  

Of course I played a bard more than any other class so my view is a little biased slywink
Bards can literally do anything in the game though, so I wasn't sure to put them in or out of the box.  Probably out, now that I think about it.

Of the classes that can solo, I'd say Bards are the hardest to solo--not due to the fact that they can't survive, (believe me, if there's one thing a Bard can do well, it's survive), but instead because they have trouble killing with any kind of speed.  On the other hand, their manaless AoE DDs spell massively profitable group kiting... though it'll still take awhile for that group to finally bite the dust.

I'm still saying Enchanters are the hardest--for most of the game, they can't solo at all AND they have to be constantly attentive in groups, even moreso than healers, since it's the Enchanter's job to fix what goes unpredictably wrong.  Really, until Enchanters get the Dire Charm AA, soloing is next to impossible for the class, unless you're comfortable with the extremely risky idea of charming a mob solo and without DC.
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« Reply #99 on: October 16, 2004, 02:10:17 AM »

As of now, the NDA for the EverQuest II Beta is officially lifted. We encourage our beta testers to share the experiences they've had in beta with the rest of the EverQuest II community. Many more people who enrolled in the EverQuest II beta program can expect beta keys in their inboxes in the very near future. In addition, in the past few weeks we've let the Legends and Lords of EverQuest players in, and we would like to thank them for their support. We now have four Beta servers up and running including one French and one German server and we've let in over 30,000 players since July. In the near future that number will grow far past that. Keep an eye on your inbox!


Ask questions, those of us in the beta I am sure will be willing to answer them.

As to the death penalty... I am lvl 14 currently, I have done mostly pick up groups.  Death has not been that often.  When I do die, even solo, so full penalty, 30 minutes has been the max amount of time to work off the debt.  Item damage at death is negligable as getting it repaired is very very cheap.  I really have yet to have any stupid players that have caused problems.  Even with a group wipeout, we just headed back and were out of debt in no time.

Downtime is very little as well, as a troll scout (very non optimal combo) I have usually regenned to full between the end of a battle and the beginning of the next while soloing evens or lower.  Combat wheel is very fun, but if in a pick up group very tough to use.  As a scout the combat wheel enables me to solo one con above what I could solo without it.

Quest system I love.... there are more quests to do than WoW.  At lvl 14 I have completed around 150 quests and have another 50 in my journal.  All of my equipment has been either quest rewards or drops.  In 10 minutes in one zone I got roughly 15 quests... not tedious at all really as I was learning the layout of the zone.

Anyway going back to play, but wanted to post this.
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olaf
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« Reply #100 on: October 16, 2004, 04:00:57 AM »

One of the problems in WoW is that three class thing, IMO.  Granted there are not many classes, but two classes do not currently fit into either of the three 'roles' and so they are SOL.  Anyway, my perspective as a 60 Alliance PvE Warrior who has beaten, with a good group or two in the case of upper BRS, everything the game has to offer except the latest instance Scholomance (because I have yet to set foot in it):

In a good high level group you must have:

1) A tank that can hold aggro.  Right now this is a Warrior only.  Bear form Druids and Paladins simply cannot hold aggro like a Warrior.  As an aside, and as a Warrior, if they ever gave another class the ability to hold aggro like a Warrior, it would kill the class.  But at the same time, its kind of gay that you MUST have a Warrior.  There are a ton of them though, so you are usually going to be short a Priest or Mage before a Warrior.  Unless you are a Priest or Mage of course.

2) Healing.  Priest/Shaman/Druid.  Druids really are second rate healers though (and cant res), without the bugged instacast talent anyway, and Shamans are Horde only.  So, for the Alliance, this means a Priest.

3) DPS.  Right now this is Mage and Rogue.  Mages are godly, and are everyone's first DPS choice, because of polymorph, free water, and AE. But Rogues still get invites.  Hunters are in here too, although honestly I couldnt tell you how their DPS stacks up vs the other two.  I think when you factor in their pets though, they might be the best single target DPS class.  Pets are still kind of buggy though and can wipe you in instances due to fucked up aggro.  So most of the time I am with a hunter, they are just using ranged attacks and calling targets for the group.

This setup leaves Paladins and Warlocks out in the cold.  Neither of them fits any of the above three roles.  Warlocks are a utility class.  They can do a little of almost everything, but excel at nothing.  Their pets pale in comparison to Hunters.  Their most sought after ability, soulstones, got nerfed huge this last patch.  Blizzard seriously hates Warlocks, and no one with any pull inside the company plays one because they have consistently got the shaft more than any other class since beta3.

Paladins are used as emergency rezzers and that is about it.  They have some decent heals, but shitty mana pools.  Their DPS is horrid and they cant keep aggro.  They do have good group buffs...but not good enough to reserve them a spot in your group unless its your friend or guildmate.  If you are in a new place, or facing a tough fight, you have your paladin hang back out of combat to res the rest of the group if the shit hits the fan.  Sound fun?

olaf
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« Reply #101 on: October 20, 2004, 04:15:38 AM »

THis post is reminding me of the funniest GG thread I have ever seen where people were posting pictures depicting the differences between EQII and WoW.

I'm getting all teary eyed.

Personally I am going to give EQII a shot. I was able to stay away from EQ1 so I feel as though it is time to give SOE a shot. (besides delving into SWG... shudder)
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