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Author Topic: Orbis. aka PlayStation 4? The rumors are put to rest.  (Read 61723 times)
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Caine
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« Reply #1120 on: October 08, 2013, 07:55:30 PM »

Quote from: Purge on October 08, 2013, 07:49:55 PM

He could have used ipso facto.

if my use of that word got Ceekay to stop and ponder its meaning for even one minute, it was worth it.
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« Reply #1121 on: October 08, 2013, 07:56:21 PM »

Quote from: Caine on October 08, 2013, 07:55:30 PM

Quote from: Purge on October 08, 2013, 07:49:55 PM

He could have used ipso facto.

if my use of that word got Ceekay to stop and ponder its meaning for even one minute, it was worth it.

ponder?  is that French? Tongue
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« Reply #1122 on: October 08, 2013, 08:09:26 PM »

Quote from: CeeKay on October 08, 2013, 07:56:21 PM

Quote from: Caine on October 08, 2013, 07:55:30 PM

Quote from: Purge on October 08, 2013, 07:49:55 PM

He could have used ipso facto.

if my use of that word got Ceekay to stop and ponder its meaning for even one minute, it was worth it.

ponder?  is that French? Tongue
dunno, hey Purge, is that French? 
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« Reply #1123 on: October 08, 2013, 08:19:34 PM »

Ponder is a hick-town version of Laker.
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« Reply #1124 on: October 08, 2013, 08:41:25 PM »

Great Scott!
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« Reply #1125 on: October 08, 2013, 08:47:49 PM »

Laner isn't a hick?
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« Reply #1126 on: October 08, 2013, 09:21:16 PM »

Quote from: Purge on October 08, 2013, 08:19:34 PM

Ponder is a hick-town version of Laker.

Yeah, I also liked the team much better when it was the Minnesota Ponders. 
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« Reply #1127 on: October 10, 2013, 06:32:08 PM »

isn't it past time we nuked Foxconn from orbit?
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« Reply #1128 on: October 10, 2013, 06:49:47 PM »

Quote from: CeeKay on October 10, 2013, 06:32:08 PM


Future generations are going to look down upon all of us for letting this kind of crap happen.
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« Reply #1129 on: October 10, 2013, 06:53:20 PM »

Quote from: CeeKay on October 08, 2013, 08:47:49 PM

Laner isn't a hick?

Whut y'all flappin yer gums about?
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« Reply #1130 on: October 10, 2013, 07:50:49 PM »

Quote from: Laner on October 10, 2013, 06:53:20 PM

Quote from: CeeKay on October 08, 2013, 08:47:49 PM

Laner isn't a hick?

Whut y'all flappin yer gums about?
This is how we know.  if you were a yankee, you'd have more teeth in those gums biggrin
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« Reply #1131 on: October 10, 2013, 10:22:56 PM »

Quote from: CeeKay on October 10, 2013, 06:32:08 PM

Seems inevitable to me-all the elementary school students are busy making the iPhone.
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« Reply #1132 on: October 10, 2013, 11:15:59 PM »

Stupid China's terrible and corrupt labor and business culture. I hate having to worry about this with every big purchase.
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« Reply #1133 on: October 11, 2013, 12:14:49 AM »



I don't worry about it.    There are enough Chinese to overthrow that tyrannical communist regime if they finally get fed up enough with it.     Apparently they haven't, so make my damned cheap PS4 little comrades.

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« Reply #1134 on: October 11, 2013, 04:23:39 AM »

Quote from: Turtle on October 10, 2013, 11:15:59 PM

Stupid China's terrible and corrupt labor and business culture. I hate having to worry about this with every big purchase.

I dare say it's not really China's fault, but the fault of large companies like Apple that almost singlehandedly keep Foxconn going. They wouldn't be able to do what they're doing at that scale if international companies didn't give them jobs, and the international companies wouldn't be able to do that if consumers in the western world didn't always insist on getting electronics as cheap as humanly possible. We're living in a time when electronics are unsustainably cheap. This can't and won't continue in the future.

The worst thing about this particular instance is that consumers get screwed either way because there's not a lot of choice when it comes to games consoles. We don't have much power to influence the console manufacturers here. Only for electronics where there is actual choice do we get the chance to make a difference. I know Apple uses Foxconn extensively, despite getting grilled about it in the media multiple times. Don't buy iPhones or iPads. Buy competing products that don't use labor practices that equate to slavery. I think some of their competitors do the same thing (Samsung maybe?) but I don't remember the details at the moment.
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« Reply #1135 on: October 11, 2013, 11:13:41 PM »

As of last year, Samsung was paying Koreans 4-5 times what Apple was paying the Chinese.
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« Reply #1136 on: October 11, 2013, 11:53:08 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on October 11, 2013, 04:23:39 AM

Quote from: Turtle on October 10, 2013, 11:15:59 PM

Stupid China's terrible and corrupt labor and business culture. I hate having to worry about this with every big purchase.
The worst thing about this particular instance is that consumers get screwed either way because there's not a lot of choice when it comes to games consoles. We don't have much power to influence the console manufacturers here. Only for electronics where there is actual choice do we get the chance to make a difference. I know Apple uses Foxconn extensively, despite getting grilled about it in the media multiple times. Don't buy iPhones or iPads. Buy competing products that don't use labor practices that equate to slavery. I think some of their competitors do the same thing (Samsung maybe?) but I don't remember the details at the moment.

All of them do it. ALL of them. Don't buy the horseshit that it's just Apple. Our electronics empire is built on the back of cheap asian labor, and it's not going to stop until China changes their labor laws
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« Reply #1137 on: October 12, 2013, 12:10:57 AM »

I don't doubt that everyone does it. I wonder what an iPhone would cost if it were actually built in America!
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« Reply #1138 on: October 12, 2013, 01:05:26 AM »

Quote from: Canuck on October 12, 2013, 12:10:57 AM

I don't doubt that everyone does it. I wonder what an iPhone would cost if it were actually built in America!

Yeah, it's amazing to see when people are outraged over what is happening in China...but then happily buy the latest iPhone/XBox/Playstation. In order for these things to be made for the price that the world is willing to pay for them, they have to be made by almost slave labor.

If they were not made in China by people working for practically nothing, the PS4 and XB1 would be much more expensive and very few would buy them. Same with the iPhone.
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« Reply #1139 on: October 12, 2013, 01:33:36 AM »

Quote
they have to be made by almost slave labor.

Indeed.   Technology is the 21st century Great Pyramid.

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« Reply #1140 on: October 12, 2013, 09:31:26 AM »

Quote from: th'FOOL on October 11, 2013, 11:53:08 PM

Quote from: TiLT on October 11, 2013, 04:23:39 AM

Quote from: Turtle on October 10, 2013, 11:15:59 PM

Stupid China's terrible and corrupt labor and business culture. I hate having to worry about this with every big purchase.
The worst thing about this particular instance is that consumers get screwed either way because there's not a lot of choice when it comes to games consoles. We don't have much power to influence the console manufacturers here. Only for electronics where there is actual choice do we get the chance to make a difference. I know Apple uses Foxconn extensively, despite getting grilled about it in the media multiple times. Don't buy iPhones or iPads. Buy competing products that don't use labor practices that equate to slavery. I think some of their competitors do the same thing (Samsung maybe?) but I don't remember the details at the moment.

All of them do it. ALL of them. Don't buy the horseshit that it's just Apple. Our electronics empire is built on the back of cheap asian labor, and it's not going to stop until China changes their labor laws

Most of them use chinese labor, yes. Not all of them use Foxconn though, which is where the biggest problems are. There are varying degrees of worker abuse in China too, but Foxconn uses every single opportunity, every single loophole, to drain their workers of everything they've got. Foxconn is the problem that has to be dealt with first.
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« Reply #1141 on: October 12, 2013, 03:42:23 PM »

Quote from: th'FOOL on October 11, 2013, 11:53:08 PM

Quote from: TiLT on October 11, 2013, 04:23:39 AM

Quote from: Turtle on October 10, 2013, 11:15:59 PM

Stupid China's terrible and corrupt labor and business culture. I hate having to worry about this with every big purchase.
The worst thing about this particular instance is that consumers get screwed either way because there's not a lot of choice when it comes to games consoles. We don't have much power to influence the console manufacturers here. Only for electronics where there is actual choice do we get the chance to make a difference. I know Apple uses Foxconn extensively, despite getting grilled about it in the media multiple times. Don't buy iPhones or iPads. Buy competing products that don't use labor practices that equate to slavery. I think some of their competitors do the same thing (Samsung maybe?) but I don't remember the details at the moment.

All of them do it. ALL of them. Don't buy the horseshit that it's just Apple. Our electronics empire is built on the back of cheap asian labor, and it's not going to stop until China changes their labor laws

Motorolla builds their phones on cheap American labor - link.  icon_lol
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« Reply #1142 on: October 12, 2013, 04:50:06 PM »

Quote from: th'FOOL on October 11, 2013, 11:53:08 PM

Quote from: TiLT on October 11, 2013, 04:23:39 AM

Quote from: Turtle on October 10, 2013, 11:15:59 PM

Stupid China's terrible and corrupt labor and business culture. I hate having to worry about this with every big purchase.
The worst thing about this particular instance is that consumers get screwed either way because there's not a lot of choice when it comes to games consoles. We don't have much power to influence the console manufacturers here. Only for electronics where there is actual choice do we get the chance to make a difference. I know Apple uses Foxconn extensively, despite getting grilled about it in the media multiple times. Don't buy iPhones or iPads. Buy competing products that don't use labor practices that equate to slavery. I think some of their competitors do the same thing (Samsung maybe?) but I don't remember the details at the moment.

All of them do it. ALL of them. Don't buy the horseshit that it's just Apple. Our electronics empire is built on the back of cheap asian labor, and it's not going to stop until China changes their labor laws

By saying "all" you make unimportant any corporate actions taken by companies to avoid using unfair and amoral business practices as a way of competing for market share. I know this isn't the intent, but rather to defend Apple in being singled out - and you're not wrong in doing so.

Foxconn is actually a Taiwan company. The only culpability China has is updating their labour laws - but since they're getting all of this business, they have no need to do so. Who is going to put trade sanctions against China? There's far too much backlash - so we as consumers need to be more informed about the build practices of the products we buy, be willing to pay more and get less.

That goes exactly against the cultivated behaviour of capitalism.

I buy free range eggs, I buy free range meat (as much as I can). I also buy fair trade coffee - these are things I've looked into. If Motorola, or Nokia, or Sony, or Apple, or Microsoft are going to show how they work to make the world a better place by buying products that haven't hurt those who have mined, collected, refined, built, shipped, or sold the product to me, then I'm all for it.
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« Reply #1143 on: October 12, 2013, 08:23:15 PM »

Yeah, this is one of those things that most everyone understands, but no one wants to talk about. We'd rather (as a society) have cheaper electronics than fight for improved working conditions for strangers on the other side of the world.
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« Reply #1144 on: October 12, 2013, 08:38:34 PM »

Because it's the opposite of a rational actor.  Getting people better pay and benefits to make our products would result in higher prices for us to obtain them.  It's kind of the whole reason that manufacturing jobs got outsourced in the first place.  It's only people that have mastered Maslow's hierarchy of needs that have the excess time and capital to invest in pulling other people up the pyramid. 
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« Reply #1145 on: October 13, 2013, 12:18:32 AM »

Catch 22 of course, is that having those jobs with proper pay would help fill a part of that hierarchy of needs.
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« Reply #1146 on: October 13, 2013, 01:37:05 AM »

And then their low-cost needs to help sustain that lifestyle would push the manufacturing to yet another underdeveloped economy.

There's a reason the phrase 'wage slave' was coined. The cycle continues. Once you couldn't own the people that were the means of production doesn't all of a sudden make it a thing to pay them reasonable wages.

Economic history has become much more interesting to me over the 20 years since I left high school.
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« Reply #1147 on: October 13, 2013, 02:57:38 AM »

Doesn't the world basically boil down to enslave or be enslaved? I'm glad I didn't end up on the scratched side of the coin, and I'm buying a PS4 rather than slaving away to produce it  icon_twisted
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« Reply #1148 on: October 13, 2013, 06:28:45 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on October 12, 2013, 09:31:26 AM

Quote from: th'FOOL on October 11, 2013, 11:53:08 PM

Quote from: TiLT on October 11, 2013, 04:23:39 AM

Quote from: Turtle on October 10, 2013, 11:15:59 PM

Stupid China's terrible and corrupt labor and business culture. I hate having to worry about this with every big purchase.
The worst thing about this particular instance is that consumers get screwed either way because there's not a lot of choice when it comes to games consoles. We don't have much power to influence the console manufacturers here. Only for electronics where there is actual choice do we get the chance to make a difference. I know Apple uses Foxconn extensively, despite getting grilled about it in the media multiple times. Don't buy iPhones or iPads. Buy competing products that don't use labor practices that equate to slavery. I think some of their competitors do the same thing (Samsung maybe?) but I don't remember the details at the moment.

All of them do it. ALL of them. Don't buy the horseshit that it's just Apple. Our electronics empire is built on the back of cheap asian labor, and it's not going to stop until China changes their labor laws

Most of them use chinese labor, yes. Not all of them use Foxconn though, which is where the biggest problems are. There are varying degrees of worker abuse in China too, but Foxconn uses every single opportunity, every single loophole, to drain their workers of everything they've got. Foxconn is the problem that has to be dealt with first.

How do you know that Foxconn is the worst? We know about their problems because they are the biggest and associated with companies like Apple so the news covers it. I hardly doubt other manufacturers are any better. They just don't have reporters snooping around their factories.
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« Reply #1149 on: October 13, 2013, 09:25:33 PM »

Quote from: Jumangi on October 13, 2013, 06:28:45 PM

Quote from: TiLT on October 12, 2013, 09:31:26 AM

Quote from: th'FOOL on October 11, 2013, 11:53:08 PM

Quote from: TiLT on October 11, 2013, 04:23:39 AM

Quote from: Turtle on October 10, 2013, 11:15:59 PM

Stupid China's terrible and corrupt labor and business culture. I hate having to worry about this with every big purchase.
The worst thing about this particular instance is that consumers get screwed either way because there's not a lot of choice when it comes to games consoles. We don't have much power to influence the console manufacturers here. Only for electronics where there is actual choice do we get the chance to make a difference. I know Apple uses Foxconn extensively, despite getting grilled about it in the media multiple times. Don't buy iPhones or iPads. Buy competing products that don't use labor practices that equate to slavery. I think some of their competitors do the same thing (Samsung maybe?) but I don't remember the details at the moment.

All of them do it. ALL of them. Don't buy the horseshit that it's just Apple. Our electronics empire is built on the back of cheap asian labor, and it's not going to stop until China changes their labor laws

Most of them use chinese labor, yes. Not all of them use Foxconn though, which is where the biggest problems are. There are varying degrees of worker abuse in China too, but Foxconn uses every single opportunity, every single loophole, to drain their workers of everything they've got. Foxconn is the problem that has to be dealt with first.

How do you know that Foxconn is the worst? We know about their problems because they are the biggest and associated with companies like Apple so the news covers it. I hardly doubt other manufacturers are any better. They just don't have reporters snooping around their factories.

There's one thing these companies can't cover up, and that's unusually high rates of deaths. Foxconn had a disturbingly large amount of suicides happening at its factories a while ago, to the point where they installed nets along the sides of their buildings to stop jumpers. This is what got the media's attention. Workers were being treated so poorly that they felt death was a better alternative than to keep working there. Foxconn is also the largest at what they do, giving them a lot more power without taking any of the responsibility that entails. There's been plenty of scandals in the media about Foxconn, but comparatively little about its competitors. This is not a coincidence.
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« Reply #1150 on: October 13, 2013, 11:18:57 PM »

Sony needs to do something good or something bad so we'll have something Sony related to talk about. Only one more month!
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« Reply #1151 on: October 13, 2013, 11:22:32 PM »


One of the executives at my company toured some Chinese facilities.   He came back and told us about how he asked the manager of the facility about the safety conditions and safeguards they were using.    The manager looked at him with curiosity and said (through a translator) that if someone got hurt or died, they would just replace them.    He said there were more people that wanted work than they could ever give jobs.   Endless labor pool.

So there you go....
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« Reply #1152 on: October 14, 2013, 12:10:04 AM »

Are you sure he wasn't in Lubbock, TX?
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« Reply #1153 on: October 15, 2013, 07:45:19 PM »



One month from today.   

#countdown
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« Reply #1154 on: October 15, 2013, 11:32:31 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on October 13, 2013, 09:25:33 PM

There's one thing these companies can't cover up, and that's unusually high rates of deaths. Foxconn had a disturbingly large amount of suicides happening at its factories a while ago, to the point where they installed nets along the sides of their buildings to stop jumpers. This is what got the media's attention. Workers were being treated so poorly that they felt death was a better alternative than to keep working there. Foxconn is also the largest at what they do, giving them a lot more power without taking any of the responsibility that entails. There's been plenty of scandals in the media about Foxconn, but comparatively little about its competitors. This is not a coincidence.

You seem to have an omnipresent view of Chinese manufacturing.  If you were writing a story to garner hits/views/subscriptions/whatever are you going to write it about Uncle Bob's Toy Factory that has 20 woefully underpaid teenage workers building widgets that nobody wants or are you going to write it about one of the biggest manufacturers out there who are building some of the most popular electronic devices in the world?  If Foxconn got slapped down (they won't) than another company will just swoop in and continue down the same path.  They are ALL like this over there.  It's the Government that allows this.  Don't hate the player, hate the game.
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« Reply #1155 on: October 16, 2013, 12:11:07 AM »

Just pre-ordered the games and canceled my watch dogs pre-order due to the delay. Shifted it over to an AC4 pre-order on newegg for the credit. I figure if reviews come out for the PS3/360 versions of AC4 are poor, I can just cancel before it ships.

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« Reply #1156 on: October 16, 2013, 04:40:42 AM »

Quote from: morlac on October 15, 2013, 11:32:31 PM

Quote from: TiLT on October 13, 2013, 09:25:33 PM

There's one thing these companies can't cover up, and that's unusually high rates of deaths. Foxconn had a disturbingly large amount of suicides happening at its factories a while ago, to the point where they installed nets along the sides of their buildings to stop jumpers. This is what got the media's attention. Workers were being treated so poorly that they felt death was a better alternative than to keep working there. Foxconn is also the largest at what they do, giving them a lot more power without taking any of the responsibility that entails. There's been plenty of scandals in the media about Foxconn, but comparatively little about its competitors. This is not a coincidence.

You seem to have an omnipresent view of Chinese manufacturing. 

Do you? I would venture to say that your claims are far more absurd than mine.
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« Reply #1157 on: October 16, 2013, 12:11:09 PM »

Just saw this saw this over on OO.  kind of pointed in relations to China's manufacturing issues
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« Reply #1158 on: October 16, 2013, 01:55:34 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on October 16, 2013, 04:40:42 AM

Quote from: morlac on October 15, 2013, 11:32:31 PM

Quote from: TiLT on October 13, 2013, 09:25:33 PM

There's one thing these companies can't cover up, and that's unusually high rates of deaths. Foxconn had a disturbingly large amount of suicides happening at its factories a while ago, to the point where they installed nets along the sides of their buildings to stop jumpers. This is what got the media's attention. Workers were being treated so poorly that they felt death was a better alternative than to keep working there. Foxconn is also the largest at what they do, giving them a lot more power without taking any of the responsibility that entails. There's been plenty of scandals in the media about Foxconn, but comparatively little about its competitors. This is not a coincidence.

You seem to have an omnipresent view of Chinese manufacturing. 

Do you? I would venture to say that your claims are far more absurd than mine.

He's actually right.   Most companies in China have abysmal safety rates, slave labor like conditions, etc.    The thing that plant manager told our executive speaks for itself.    The one resource they have endless supply of is bodies.    If someone gets hurt, they plug another body in.    If someone gets killed, they plug another body in.  There is absolutely zero incentive to protect human life when you have an extreme overpopulation in the first place.
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« Reply #1159 on: October 16, 2013, 01:57:31 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on October 16, 2013, 04:40:42 AM

Quote from: morlac on October 15, 2013, 11:32:31 PM

Quote from: TiLT on October 13, 2013, 09:25:33 PM

There's one thing these companies can't cover up, and that's unusually high rates of deaths. Foxconn had a disturbingly large amount of suicides happening at its factories a while ago, to the point where they installed nets along the sides of their buildings to stop jumpers. This is what got the media's attention. Workers were being treated so poorly that they felt death was a better alternative than to keep working there. Foxconn is also the largest at what they do, giving them a lot more power without taking any of the responsibility that entails. There's been plenty of scandals in the media about Foxconn, but comparatively little about its competitors. This is not a coincidence.

You seem to have an omnipresent view of Chinese manufacturing. 

Do you? I would venture to say that your claims are far more absurd than mine.


Yes I do.  I used to work for a company that was in the trade show industry providing personalized giveaways to attendees.  Guess where we got most of these giveaway items?  I would venture I have much more hands on experience with Chinese manufacturing.  Even though I did not go on any of the buying trips I heard plenty of horror stories of first hand accounts from my boss.  However, since you want to claim I am absurd without bothering to even check google and your counter point was basically nananny boo boo, I will help you out....



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/27/chinese-labor-camp-worker_n_2370216.html  Note : Not Foxconn
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/05/business/worldbusiness/05sweatshop.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0http://owens.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=351546  Note : No Mention of Foxconn
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505124_162-43443422/microsofts-chinese-labor-scandal-theres-more-trouble-ahead-for-the-rest-of-high-tech/  Note : Not Foxconn
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505124_162-57382744/why-apples-labor-practices-may-never-improve/ Note: Interesting read.  Good quote for you that backs up my absurd statement "So why pick on Apple? Its high profile, for one, including the tech giant's status as the largest U.S. company by market capitalization. Activists also target the company because of its tie to consumers. Over the last decade, sportswear maker Nike (NKE) and other apparel companies in the public eye also have drawn fire for their use of sweatshops in Asia; indeed, pressure on the industry has forced it to become far more sensitive to labor issues."
http://digitalcommons.ilr.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1085&context=globaldocs  This is from 2005, no Foxconn but a very in depth study.

This is all just from the first page of hits.  This is not a Foxconn issue and that should be blatantly obvious.  How on earth can they continue to treat employees this way over and over unless the parties overseeing them just don't give a shit.  Absurd indeed.
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