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Author Topic: Official GTA4 impressions thread  (Read 73272 times)
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Brendan
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« Reply #880 on: May 12, 2008, 02:01:03 AM »

Fair enough. slywink  FWIW, you should be able to store multiple vehicles, even at the initial safehouse, if you cram them into the on street parking that's bounded by a yellow rectangle spraypainted on the street.
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« Reply #881 on: May 12, 2008, 02:44:03 AM »

Quote from: msduncan on May 12, 2008, 12:25:59 AM

Quote from: TheMissingLink on May 11, 2008, 06:22:09 PM

19.99% complete and I think I'm done.  Another super-hyped sequel of the worst-offending MOTS franchises out there.


Wow.    I haven't played a game this good in a decade -- and I really didn't care for the previous GTA's that much.     

Not sure what you are seeing....perhaps GTA burnout?

FWIW, I'm in the same boat.  Around 35% and I think I'm about finished.  While I don't really agree with the "worst-offending MOTS" thought, the gameplay is really starting to wear thin.  I'll admit that I've enjoyed this one and think it is far superior to any of the other GTA games, but I don't have much interest now that the initial 'wow' factor has worn off.  Will probably be up for trade soon.

Edit for grammar.
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« Reply #882 on: May 12, 2008, 02:55:55 AM »

Quote from: Gratch on May 12, 2008, 02:44:03 AM

Quote from: msduncan on May 12, 2008, 12:25:59 AM

Quote from: TheMissingLink on May 11, 2008, 06:22:09 PM

19.99% complete and I think I'm done.  Another super-hyped sequel of the worst-offending MOTS franchises out there.


Wow.    I haven't played a game this good in a decade -- and I really didn't care for the previous GTA's that much.     

Not sure what you are seeing....perhaps GTA burnout?

FWIW, I'm in the same boat.  Around 35% and I think I'm about finished.  While I don't really agree with the "worst-offending MOTS" thought, the gameplay is really starting to wear thin.  I'll admit that I've enjoyed this one is far superior to any of the other GTA games, I don't have much interest now that the initial 'wow' factor has worn off.  Will probably be up for trade soon.

I'm somewhat with you guys.  The game is AWFULLY repetitive for the most part.  However, every now and then I stumble across a WOW mission that makes me want to keep going.  Not sure if I'll ever finish the game.  I definitely see both sides of the argument.

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« Reply #883 on: May 12, 2008, 04:49:47 AM »

Quote from: gellar on May 12, 2008, 02:55:55 AM

Quote from: Gratch on May 12, 2008, 02:44:03 AM

Quote from: msduncan on May 12, 2008, 12:25:59 AM

Quote from: TheMissingLink on May 11, 2008, 06:22:09 PM

19.99% complete and I think I'm done.  Another super-hyped sequel of the worst-offending MOTS franchises out there.


Wow.    I haven't played a game this good in a decade -- and I really didn't care for the previous GTA's that much.     

Not sure what you are seeing....perhaps GTA burnout?

FWIW, I'm in the same boat.  Around 35% and I think I'm about finished.  While I don't really agree with the "worst-offending MOTS" thought, the gameplay is really starting to wear thin.  I'll admit that I've enjoyed this one is far superior to any of the other GTA games, I don't have much interest now that the initial 'wow' factor has worn off.  Will probably be up for trade soon.

I'm somewhat with you guys.  The game is AWFULLY repetitive for the most part.  However, every now and then I stumble across a WOW mission that makes me want to keep going.  Not sure if I'll ever finish the game I definitely see both sides of the argument.

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« Reply #884 on: May 12, 2008, 04:54:53 AM »

Untrue.  The proper word is 'rarely'.

gellar
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« Reply #885 on: May 12, 2008, 05:13:41 AM »

Quote from: whiteboyskim on May 12, 2008, 01:38:29 AM

Quote from: Brendan on May 12, 2008, 01:25:19 AM

Quote from: whiteboyskim on May 12, 2008, 12:58:55 AM

If I had a major knock against this it's that it doesn't appear that you can buy multiple safe houses nor can you store multiple vehicles.

??  I currently have two Algonquin safehouses, each of which will store ~3 cars out front in the reserved parking spaces.

Then obviously I'm not to that point just yet. smile

I don't think you actually have to obtain a safe house for the reserved space to work.  If you're observant you can find "Reserved Parking" spaces well before the game's plot will send you to them. 
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« Reply #886 on: May 12, 2008, 11:08:36 AM »

My Niko was such a dog yesterday. Was on one date when the phone alarm went off, reminding me I had a date in two hours! I rushed through bowling, brought date one back, then hopped a taxi from Broker to Algonquin to pick up my second date. After finishing with that I figured "what the heck" and did a third date. Then a race with Brucie, which is like a man-date.  slywink

I'm about forty-some percent complete, 54 missions done, forty-some hours of gaming. When the regular mission gameplay starts to get repetitive I switch to some other activity in the game, like looking for stunt jumps or exploring on foot. I guess sometime if I get really desperate for something to do I can get out the strategy guide and start hunt pigeons, but I'm not there yet. Of course I realize that I've screwed myself up a bit by shooting five random pigeons, it means I'll end up searching locations in frustration, not remembering that I got one there already. Shame it doesn't have the in-game system like Bully for the 360, where the pick-ups were shown on a map and disappeared off the map when you got them. But I guess this really makes you work for it... or buy the strategy guide  Roll Eyes

Of course I do have other things going on in my life... but those are more repetitive than GTAIV.

I've yet to find any missions that frustrated me like several in GTASA. Most ones I lose the first time are due to not following the instructions correctly or missing some facet that makes the mission completable. And sometimes it's due to my lousy driving. Thank goodness for the auto aim system, I'd never have gotten this far without it.
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« Reply #887 on: May 12, 2008, 11:17:26 AM »

Quote from: Kevin Grey on May 11, 2008, 11:14:06 PM

Quote from: IkeVandergraaf on May 11, 2008, 10:13:05 PM

Am I missing something?  I feel like I've done way more than 10 delivery missions for LJ, but I havent gotten the achievement.  They seem to be repeating.  What gives homey?

I did the ten misions, got the achievement, and LJ called to say that he didn't have any more missions from me.  You'll know the last one because there will be a much nicer vehicle in place of the junkers you usually get. 

Thanks, Kevin.  I played a few more of the missions and finally got it.  That car was nice, but unfortunately I lost it in the shuffle after the mission (health was low, and the cops were after me because I shot a pigeon).  I wonder if there's a way to get it again.

My impressions of the game are overwhelmingly positive.  Like OMG BEST GAME EVAR positive.  I am, admittedly very early in.  I have never finished a GTA game before because I get too distracted with the side stuff and don't concentrate on the main storyline.  I promised myself I wouldn't do that this time, but there's just so much stuff to do that I find it very hard to stick to the plot.  I wanted to finish the Little Jacob missions, both for the mobile gun store and for the achievement.  That police car parked near the first safehouse is simply too tempting to pass up.  The most wanted missions are too fun not to do, even though they don't pay any money.  I've been doing the Brucie missions because that will unlock something.  And as long as I'm already at the internet cafe, I may as well try my hand at online dating.  I've even done a few taxi missions just to learn the city a little better.  What, there are story missions too?

I like the driving and still drive pretty much everywhere personally.  Last night the mission I finished was far away from the safehouse, so I took a cab back home while I flossed my teeth, but that is far and away the exception rather than the rule for me.  I can see how some would find the driving repetitive and tedious, but I like the driving model a lot, once I started using the first person view, and I enjoy open world driving anyway.

Can someone explain the online dating to me, in spoilers if need be?  I pressed the "date" button for all 9 women's profiles, and they all came back negative.  Am I that repulsive?  This is, unfortunately, art imitating life a little bit too much for me!  What am I doing wrong, and will I get another shot at it?
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« Reply #888 on: May 12, 2008, 12:00:16 PM »

Ike, the online dating will come.  You should get a mission from someone sending you to the internet cafe to set up a profile because someone you have to kill you have to meet through an online date.  Once your profile is set up, you will get some online dates.
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« Reply #889 on: May 12, 2008, 01:30:11 PM »

Quote from: IkeVandergraaf on May 12, 2008, 11:17:26 AM

Thanks, Kevin.  I played a few more of the missions and finally got it.  That car was nice, but unfortunately I lost it in the shuffle after the mission (health was low, and the cops were after me because I shot a pigeon).  I wonder if there's a way to get it again.

Same happened to me.  I ended up having to ditch it, only to have LJ call me up later and offer to let me keep it as a reward...oops. 

My impressions pretty much mirror yours- I was planning on staying straight on the critical path but much of the extracurricular stuff is so much fun I'll ignore the main plot for many hours at a time.  I think the key change for me is that almost everything this time out is actually scripted.  I've seen some complaints from others that they ditched the randomized missions of the past games but, for me, it's completely the opposite.  I like doing things like the Most Wanted missions because they're often just as well put together as main story missions. 

I'm somewhere around 40 hours and 40% complete and still going strong...
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« Reply #890 on: May 12, 2008, 01:34:15 PM »

Sign of a great game:  just when I start to feel it's become TOO difficult, something clicks and you get past the tough stuff.   It's like a zen moment where you stop fighting the game and just go with it.  Some games just remain too damn difficult due to poor design.  GTAIV, thankfully, does not have this problem for me.   icon_biggrin
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« Reply #891 on: May 12, 2008, 01:47:20 PM »

So far I'm very pleased with the difficulty level.  The only mission that has approached frustrating is Snow Storm and that was mainly because I still kind of suck at losing higher level Wanted levels, especially when it's in a damn Bobcat.  But I've gotten much better at that.  Same thing with shooting while driving- I was totally sucking at that early on too but that seems to be going much better recently.

Easily the least frustrating GTA game I've ever played. 
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« Reply #892 on: May 12, 2008, 01:55:53 PM »

Holy hell is this thing repetitive. The missions are either "Fed Ex" or "Assassinate" with zero in the way of variation. The only thing that might go wrong is there is a 50/50 chance either cops or enemy drug lords will show up, at which point you deal with them then lose your wanted level. Repeat for 40+ hours.

Zzzzzzz.

That's the core gameplay. The rest of it I'll admit is pretty fun when you're just goofing off. The vigilante missions are hilarious, and the amount of detail in the game is staggering. I still don't think the graphics by themselves are all that impressive, but the amount of detail packed into the graphics is mind boggling. Consider that everyone in-game is turning their heads and looking around while driving and multiple that by a lot. It's impressive that the load times are kept to a relatively bare minimum as well. Also, multiplayer is a blast when playing with the GT crowd like we did this past Friday night.

I maintain that the game does a lot right and that it has a lot to offer, but that anyone giving it a perfect 10 is retarded plain and simple. I'm looking at you, [insert any video game publication here].
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« Reply #893 on: May 12, 2008, 02:11:23 PM »

Quote from: whiteboyskim on May 12, 2008, 01:55:53 PM

but that anyone giving it a perfect 10 is retarded plain and simple. I'm looking at you, [insert any video game publication here].

ladies and gentleman, may I present the one true source of all opinions.  please refer to this man for any future opinions you may wish to form.   icon_twisted
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« Reply #894 on: May 12, 2008, 02:14:28 PM »

Quote from: whiteboyskim on May 12, 2008, 01:55:53 PM

Holy hell is this thing repetitive. The missions are either "Fed Ex" or "Assassinate" with zero in the way of variation. The only thing that might go wrong is there is a 50/50 chance either cops or enemy drug lords will show up, at which point you deal with them then lose your wanted level. Repeat for 40+ hours.

I was thinking about this last night and while it's certainly true on a macro level that each mission is typically going to end with driving, shooting, or a combination thereof, I'm actually really happy with the variations that the game gives you before getting to that point. Some of the mission setups have been really inspired and clever.  I'd definitely like to see more missions that didn't end in bloodshed (just for variation- not being prudish) though. 

For example, I loved (first McCreary mission):

Spoiler for Hiden:
  Showing up at the overlook and having to pinpoint the blackmailer by who was talking on his cellphone.  Just walking through the crowd of people, observing everyone, until I heard the blackmailer's voice outside of his cellphone.  That was a situation where taking him out was very satisfying purely because the game *didn't put a red marker over his head*.  It was my own detective work that lead me to pick him out of the crowd.

Really, I'm not even sure how this is any different than most RPGs of this length which also end up being a set of repetitive tasks.  Perhaps the difference is that RPGs have stats to build up to kind of distract you from the core repetition in gameplay.  San Andreas had that but GTA4 has pulled back in that arena but I generally think there are enough rewards as you progress in terms of perks, new weapons, cars, etc that there is still enough of a carrot to keep things interesting for me.  Plus, even 40 hours in, driving and shooting are still fun for me. 

One thing I would like to see in the next installment or DLC- silenced weapons and/or stealth kills.  There have been a few too many situations where Niko is sent into a public area and forced to perform an assassination.  In such scenarios it only makes sense that Niko would have used a silenced pistol or perhaps knife for throat slitting so he can get in and get out without being noticed.  Considering the game gives you a (useless) stun melee move it's a pretty glaring oversight.
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« Reply #895 on: May 12, 2008, 02:16:14 PM »

FWIW, I'd give the game a 10 too.  I'm not of the opinion that 10's only belong for "perfect" games (frankly I'm not sure that any exist) but instead just mean "super, duper awesome" and, by that criteria, I'd agree that GTA4 warrants a 10. It's certainly one of the best games I've played this generation. 
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« Reply #896 on: May 12, 2008, 02:22:37 PM »

Quote from: Kevin Grey on May 12, 2008, 02:14:28 PM


One thing I would like to see in the next installment or DLC- silenced weapons and/or stealth kills.

my god, if this game included even 1/10th of the stealth mechanics from a Splinter Cell or Thief game I'd imagine my poor old mind would just overload on pure fun and I'd end up in a vegetative state. 
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« Reply #897 on: May 12, 2008, 02:25:40 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on May 12, 2008, 02:11:23 PM

Quote from: whiteboyskim on May 12, 2008, 01:55:53 PM

but that anyone giving it a perfect 10 is retarded plain and simple. I'm looking at you, [insert any video game publication here].

ladies and gentleman, may I present the one true source of all opinions.  please refer to this man for any future opinions you may wish to form.   icon_twisted

Damn right. icon_cool
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« Reply #898 on: May 12, 2008, 02:40:15 PM »

Quote from: Kevin Grey on May 12, 2008, 02:16:14 PM

FWIW, I'd give the game a 10 too.  I'm not of the opinion that 10's only belong for "perfect" games (frankly I'm not sure that any exist) but instead just mean "super, duper awesome" and, by that criteria, I'd agree that GTA4 warrants a 10. It's certainly one of the best games I've played this generation. 

Same here. 10's across the board. Not because the game is perfect, because it isn't, but because the game is incredibly fun. Every time I sit down to play it's a different experience. Yesterday I spent three hours on "side" missions, like LJ deliveries, Brucie deliveries, taxi-driver, and most-wanted vigilante. Tonight I'm going to just cruise around and go on dates.

Usually the first 80% of my time during a gaming session is spent doing side missions or just goofing off, and then I do a main storyline mission before I shut it off just to advance the story a bit. At this rate, I'll never finish the game. Of course, if I time it right, I should finish the main storyline this fall, just in time to play the DLC!

It's a game like this that reminds me why I started playing video games in the first place.

Another indication that I'm loving the single-player portion of this game so much is that last night while pulling up my in-game cell phone, I saw the Multiplayer option and thought "Oh ya, I still have to try out the multi-player".  icon_cool
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« Reply #899 on: May 12, 2008, 02:46:24 PM »

I'm about 28 hours into the game and I am still having fun.  I like the story so that helps with the repetition.  I am not sure what % of the game I am done with, but I have unlocked all the islands.   I haven't yet done a mission on the latest one though.
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« Reply #900 on: May 12, 2008, 02:50:43 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on May 12, 2008, 02:22:37 PM

Quote from: Kevin Grey on May 12, 2008, 02:14:28 PM


One thing I would like to see in the next installment or DLC- silenced weapons and/or stealth kills.

my god, if this game included even 1/10th of the stealth mechanics from a Splinter Cell or Thief game I'd imagine my poor old mind would just overload on pure fun and I'd end up in a vegetative state. 

that'd be great up until the one and only 30 minute stealth mission that you must pass without so much as an alarm to continue the story.
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« Reply #901 on: May 12, 2008, 02:51:57 PM »

Strangely enough, I think the high point of the game for me was stealing a Turismo from a car dealership by driving it right through the glass window on the second floor of the building. 
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« Reply #902 on: May 12, 2008, 02:52:23 PM »

Quote from: Kevin Grey on May 12, 2008, 02:51:57 PM

Strangely enough, I think the high point of the game for me was stealing a Turismo from a car dealership by driving it right through the glass window on the second floor of the building. 

There's a mission for that?  I just did it for shits and giggles @_@
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« Reply #903 on: May 12, 2008, 02:53:22 PM »

Just for shits and giggles. Already had a Turismo parked at my safehouse. 
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« Reply #904 on: May 12, 2008, 03:08:45 PM »

I did that as well... and as I fell through the air I noticed a very nicely painted Banshee coming up the road.  So I ditched the Tourismo and hopped into the Banshee and drove off.
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« Reply #905 on: May 12, 2008, 03:17:25 PM »

You know, I find the Banshee to be my favorite sports car. I think it handles better than most others and is still faster than hell. I may have to try it out with some Brucie races.
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« Reply #906 on: May 12, 2008, 03:28:00 PM »

I discovered the Stunt Jumps last night.  Those are great fun, I must say.
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« Reply #907 on: May 12, 2008, 03:28:42 PM »

I enjoy the Comet myself (Porsche), but I can't regularly find them frown
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« Reply #908 on: May 12, 2008, 03:44:48 PM »

Quote from: leo8877 on May 12, 2008, 02:52:23 PM

Quote from: Kevin Grey on May 12, 2008, 02:51:57 PM

Strangely enough, I think the high point of the game for me was stealing a Turismo from a car dealership by driving it right through the glass window on the second floor of the building. 

There's a mission for that?  I just did it for shits and giggles @_@

where is the dealership?
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« Reply #909 on: May 12, 2008, 03:45:18 PM »

Quote from: CeeKay on May 12, 2008, 02:50:43 PM

Quote from: hepcat on May 12, 2008, 02:22:37 PM

Quote from: Kevin Grey on May 12, 2008, 02:14:28 PM


One thing I would like to see in the next installment or DLC- silenced weapons and/or stealth kills.

my god, if this game included even 1/10th of the stealth mechanics from a Splinter Cell or Thief game I'd imagine my poor old mind would just overload on pure fun and I'd end up in a vegetative state. 

that'd be great up until the one and only 30 minute stealth mission that you must pass without so much as an alarm to continue the story.

I think that adding in stealth as an option would be fine.  Don't make it essential during any one mission, but make it available for those missions whose design could lend itself to that style of gameplay.  For example:  assassination missions could be accomplished through stealth with the aforementioned knife kills and silencers as opposed to the "go in with guns blazing" approach that most of them currently have.  However, a player certainly could choose to go the latter route if they so wished.  If slow and steady gameplay annoys a player, then they could choose to avoid the former approach.
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« Reply #910 on: May 12, 2008, 03:45:51 PM »

Quote from: CeeKay on May 12, 2008, 03:44:48 PM

Quote from: leo8877 on May 12, 2008, 02:52:23 PM

Quote from: Kevin Grey on May 12, 2008, 02:51:57 PM

Strangely enough, I think the high point of the game for me was stealing a Turismo from a car dealership by driving it right through the glass window on the second floor of the building. 

There's a mission for that?  I just did it for shits and giggles @_@

where is the dealership?

I don't remember the names of the Island, but it's close to one of the Perseus stores.  I think the 3rd island. 
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« Reply #911 on: May 12, 2008, 03:47:30 PM »

Quote from: leo8877 on May 12, 2008, 03:45:51 PM

Quote from: CeeKay on May 12, 2008, 03:44:48 PM

Quote from: leo8877 on May 12, 2008, 02:52:23 PM

Quote from: Kevin Grey on May 12, 2008, 02:51:57 PM

Strangely enough, I think the high point of the game for me was stealing a Turismo from a car dealership by driving it right through the glass window on the second floor of the building. 

There's a mission for that?  I just did it for shits and giggles @_@

where is the dealership?

I don't remember the names of the Island, but it's close to one of the Perseus stores.  I think the 3rd island. 

hmm... never unlocked the third island in SP-  I think I'll fire up free mode and see if I can find it.
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« Reply #912 on: May 12, 2008, 03:50:01 PM »

Last night I got to Snow Storm. 

Spoiler for Hiden:
After hearing all the reports of its insane difficulty, I was really nervous heading into it.  Unfortunately, after I got the mission, I realized that I didn't have any armor on, and LJ wasn't answering his phone.  Since I haven't found any other armor source, I just headed in.  I got through the first section without much problem by just taking things very slowly.  Got into the last room and thought I was done, so I took off.  After a few blocks, I got out of the police radius, and then noticed that I had no new destination, and there was still a green dot in the hospital.

I headed back in and grabbed the bag, and the cops came storming in.  I had a few frustrating moments when a cop would charge me and Niko wouldn't get out of cover, screwing up my aiming.  Got through the rest of them by moving from cover to cover and going for headshots (that armor doesn't work so good on your face, lawboy!).  It didn't hurt that I was loaded for bear in the weapons department.

Got out and (not knowing about the boat) grabbed the truck, figuring it would be good for busting through cop cars.  It was a hairy chase, I got boxed against a few walls and took some dead-end turns, but I got out.  At one point, I think I had six or seven cop cars all crammed into a scrum as they tried to pin me, but I worked my way out, leaving them a tangled mess.

By the end, I was down to two tires and not much health.  I spent the rest of the mission paranoid that I was going to hit something and get killed before the autosave kicked in.  Fun mission, and not nearly as bad as I thought it would be.  I didn't even need to use my grenades.
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« Reply #913 on: May 12, 2008, 04:06:28 PM »

Geez, yesterday, Three Leaf Clover kicked my ass.  I tried it three times before reloading my save game so I'd get all the ER money back and going on a few dates.  I'll try it again tonight and see what happens.  mad
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« Reply #914 on: May 12, 2008, 04:10:20 PM »

Quote from: rickfc on May 12, 2008, 04:06:28 PM

Geez, yesterday, Three Leaf Clover kicked my ass.  I tried it three times before reloading my save game so I'd get all the ER money back and going on a few dates.  I'll try it again tonight and see what happens.  mad

Make sure to bring body armor - there's also a couple of spots along the way that provide both health and/or armor, so watch for the glow.
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CeeKay
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« Reply #915 on: May 12, 2008, 04:16:18 PM »

Quote from: rickfc on May 12, 2008, 04:06:28 PM

Geez, yesterday, Three Leaf Clover kicked my ass.  I tried it three times before reloading my save game so I'd get all the ER money back and going on a few dates.  I'll try it again tonight and see what happens.  mad

heh, I just did the reload thing after failing any mission just because I hated wasting the ammo and money.   I only used the cell phone restart a handful of times.
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« Reply #916 on: May 12, 2008, 04:18:03 PM »

Quote from: rickfc on May 12, 2008, 04:06:28 PM

Geez, yesterday, Three Leaf Clover kicked my ass.  I tried it three times before reloading my save game so I'd get all the ER money back and going on a few dates.  I'll try it again tonight and see what happens.  mad

As mentioned earlier though, it truly is a great mission.  I finished it on my fourth try.  tough but rewarding.
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« Reply #917 on: May 12, 2008, 04:24:26 PM »

Quote from: leo8877 on May 12, 2008, 03:45:51 PM

Quote from: CeeKay on May 12, 2008, 03:44:48 PM

Quote from: leo8877 on May 12, 2008, 02:52:23 PM

Quote from: Kevin Grey on May 12, 2008, 02:51:57 PM

Strangely enough, I think the high point of the game for me was stealing a Turismo from a car dealership by driving it right through the glass window on the second floor of the building. 

There's a mission for that?  I just did it for shits and giggles @_@

where is the dealership?

I don't remember the names of the Island, but it's close to one of the Perseus stores.  I think the 3rd island. 

It's on the second island- Algonquin.  Right around the corner from your first safehouse there and directly across the street from Perseus. 

For performance cars I prefer the Turismo over the Banshee- better handling IMO.  The Comet is nice too- I haven't seen one in the wild so I've been keeping the one you get as the "reward" for one mission. 
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« Reply #918 on: May 12, 2008, 05:05:26 PM »

Don't neglect the Coquette, may not be as pretty as some of the higher end sports cars, but even the el cheapo Corvette wanna be can still get you out of trouble quickly.

I'll have to grab one of those Turismos.  I've been loading up my safehouses with nice cars for dates, and when I know a mission will require a quick getaway vehicle.
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« Reply #919 on: May 12, 2008, 07:58:28 PM »

Is there a way to earn some solid cash? I got arrested last night and lost all my guns. Buying those suckers back was expensive as hell and I'd rather not cheat until I get certain achievements the honest way. smile
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