http://gamingtrend.com
October 24, 2014, 08:00:20 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Project Eternity [Obsidian Countdown]  (Read 3315 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
EddieA
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 6941


View Profile
« on: September 11, 2012, 12:59:33 PM »

The Obsidian Entertainment website has a countdown with four days left.  The image and words make it sound like something in the fantasy genre.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 08:24:43 PM by EddieA » Logged

"Why did the chicken cross the Mobius strip?  To get to the same side."  - The Big Bang Theory
Laner
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 4693


Badassfully


View Profile WWW
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2012, 08:25:04 PM »

I read somewhere that it may be Dungeon Siege 4
Logged
TiLT
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Online Online

Posts: 6617


Preaching to the choir


View Profile WWW
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2012, 08:30:18 PM »

It could also be Wheel of Time, which makes me conflicted. I love Obsidian, but I have no interest in WoT.
Logged
EddieA
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 6941


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2012, 08:51:18 PM »

The ouroboros surrounding the numbers points to Wheel of Time, while the text and the fact that they started the countdown with 4 suggest Dungeon Siege 4.  WoT would be nice, but I'm hoping for DS4.  I really enjoyed DS3 and with some tweaks, DS4 could be great.
Logged

"Why did the chicken cross the Mobius strip?  To get to the same side."  - The Big Bang Theory
CeeKay
Gaming Trend Staff
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 71766


La-bibbida-bibba-dum! La-bibbida-bibba-do!


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2012, 08:45:07 PM »



and then from the page's source code:

Code:
<!--. T . X X I T Y -->
<!-- There is no sleep for the Watcher. -->
Logged

Because I can,
also because I don't care what you want.
XBL: OriginalCeeKay
Wii U: CeeKay
Azhag
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 1839


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2012, 11:34:34 PM »

They need to focus all their attention on the stick of truth!
Logged
Sarkus
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 2593


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2012, 02:32:37 AM »

Quote from: Azhag on September 13, 2012, 11:34:34 PM

They need to focus all their attention on the stick of truth!

I'm sure that isn't an issue.  That game is far enough along that it would be normal for some parts of the team to move on to the next project.  And if this is a Kickstarter funded thing, as is suspected, then Obsidian is still some weeks away from going fully into production on whatever this is anyway.
Logged

Roger: And you should know, I have no genitals.
Syndey: That's alright.  I have both.

- American Dad
kronovan
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 7930



View Profile
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2012, 05:10:53 PM »

I'd be OK with this being a game set in the world of the Wheel of Time, but I don't really see the spoiler pointing to that. Namely there's not many "Watchers" in that setting - lots of Warders and Wilders, but none too many Watchers. There was a a single Watcher of the Seals on the Amyrlin Seat, but their purpose doesn't fit with the tone of the text. There were the Watchers over the Waves who built their watchtowers along the coast and awaited the return of Artur Hawkings armies, but they were killed off 1 after the other by a tyrant who thought they had it all wrong. The internal serpent is featured in some of the art for the books, but its usually depticted as a figure 8 that intertwines with the WoT symbol.

I don't neccessarily see the spoiler pointing to Dungeon Seige 4 either, unless there's some watchers of the prophesies for that setting?
Logged
Isgrimnur
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 8865



View Profile
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2012, 05:17:22 PM »

Project Eternity

Quote
This afternoon, Obsidian is launching a Kickstarter for what they're calling Project: Eternity. It's an original fantasy role-playing game created by many of the company's top minds: Chris Avellone, creator of Planescape: Torment; Tim Cain, one of the brains behind the original Fallout; Josh Sawyer, a lead designer on Icewind Dale; and a number of other programmers, artists, and designers who have worked on all of those games.
Logged

Hadron Smasher on 360; IsgrimnurTTU on PS3

Quote from: McBa1n
http://www.vuvuzela.fm BVVVVVVVVVVVRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
kronovan
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 7930



View Profile
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2012, 05:23:26 PM »

Interesting:
Quote
Project Eternity will take the central hero, memorable companions and the epic exploration of Baldur’s Gate, add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale, and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment.

Combat uses a tactical real-time with pause system - positioning your party and coordinating attacks and abilities is one of the keys to success. The world map is dotted with unique locations and wilderness ripe for exploration and questing. You’ll create your own character and collect companions along the way – taking him or her not just through this story, but, with your continued support, through future adventures. You will engage in dialogues that are deep, and offer many choices to determine the fate of you and your party. …and you'll experience a story that explores mature themes and presents you with complex, difficult choices to shape how your story plays out.

We are excited at this chance to create something new, yet reminiscent of those great games and we want you to be a part of it as well.

and...the map:
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 05:25:44 PM by kronovan » Logged
TiLT
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Online Online

Posts: 6617


Preaching to the choir


View Profile WWW
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2012, 05:26:12 PM »

Quote from: Isgrimnur on September 14, 2012, 05:17:22 PM

Project Eternity

Quote
This afternoon, Obsidian is launching a Kickstarter for what they're calling Project: Eternity. It's an original fantasy role-playing game created by many of the company's top minds: Chris Avellone, creator of Planescape: Torment; Tim Cain, one of the brains behind the original Fallout; Josh Sawyer, a lead designer on Icewind Dale; and a number of other programmers, artists, and designers who have worked on all of those games.

I took the liberty of bolding all the parts that make my body ready for this game. biggrin So glad it's not WoT.
Logged
Isgrimnur
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 8865



View Profile
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2012, 05:27:31 PM »

$20 gets you in the door.
Logged

Hadron Smasher on 360; IsgrimnurTTU on PS3

Quote from: McBa1n
http://www.vuvuzela.fm BVVVVVVVVVVVRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
kronovan
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 7930



View Profile
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2012, 05:37:01 PM »

I'd really like the cloth map in lieu of possibly translating the setting to a PnP tabletop. But I don't want it badly enough to pledge up $140.  icon_eek Maybe its time for my gaming group to pony up.  icon_wink
Logged
Isgrimnur
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 8865



View Profile
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2012, 05:41:17 PM »

But that gets you two copies of the game and a t-shirt, plus your name in the credits! 
Logged

Hadron Smasher on 360; IsgrimnurTTU on PS3

Quote from: McBa1n
http://www.vuvuzela.fm BVVVVVVVVVVVRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
TiLT
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Online Online

Posts: 6617


Preaching to the choir


View Profile WWW
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2012, 05:48:54 PM »

I pledged for the $35 level. This is the kind of project where I'd love to pledge $100 or more for interesting digital rewards, but anything above $35 consists of physical products here (which I not only don't want, but I don't want them to waste their money on it either). I hope they add something more for people like me.
Logged
TiLT
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Online Online

Posts: 6617


Preaching to the choir


View Profile WWW
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2012, 06:01:27 PM »

Less than an hour in, and they're already 10% funded. I imagine we'll see some stretch goals for this. slywink
Logged
Lordnine
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 1530


Lord of the Rutabagas


View Profile WWW
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2012, 06:21:50 PM »

Pledged before the video was even finished.
Logged
th'FOOL
Executive Producer and Editor-At-Large
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 5016


Never whistle while you're pissing


View Profile WWW
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2012, 06:57:58 PM »

Quote from: Lordnine on September 14, 2012, 06:21:50 PM

Pledged before the video was even finished.

I forgot to watch the video before I pledged :O
Logged

Mike Dunn
Executive Producer & Managing Editor, GamingTrend
CeeKay
Gaming Trend Staff
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 71766


La-bibbida-bibba-dum! La-bibbida-bibba-do!


View Profile
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2012, 07:19:30 PM »

I just hit the Kickstarter link and pledged without reading slywink
Logged

Because I can,
also because I don't care what you want.
XBL: OriginalCeeKay
Wii U: CeeKay
TiLT
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Online Online

Posts: 6617


Preaching to the choir


View Profile WWW
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2012, 07:39:03 PM »

Quote from: CeeKay on September 14, 2012, 07:19:30 PM

I just hit the Kickstarter link and pledged without reading slywink

Wow, I didn't know you were that fond of Barbie fashion sims.

Tongue
Logged
Isgrimnur
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 8865



View Profile
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2012, 08:22:21 PM »

I forgot to set up that link as an affiliate link so I could get a kickback.  frown
Logged

Hadron Smasher on 360; IsgrimnurTTU on PS3

Quote from: McBa1n
http://www.vuvuzela.fm BVVVVVVVVVVVRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
skystride
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 2216



View Profile
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2012, 10:03:07 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on September 14, 2012, 05:26:12 PM

Quote from: Isgrimnur on September 14, 2012, 05:17:22 PM

Project Eternity

Quote
This afternoon, Obsidian is launching a Kickstarter for what they're calling Project: Eternity. It's an original fantasy role-playing game created by many of the company's top minds: Chris Avellone, creator of Planescape: Torment; Tim Cain, one of the brains behind the original Fallout; Josh Sawyer, a lead designer on Icewind Dale; and a number of other programmers, artists, and designers who have worked on all of those games.

I took the liberty of bolding all the parts that make my body ready for this game. biggrin So glad it's not WoT.

I would love something like this but it's easy for anyone to make a claim like this.  Can they deliver though?
Logged
th'FOOL
Executive Producer and Editor-At-Large
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 5016


Never whistle while you're pissing


View Profile WWW
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2012, 10:16:36 PM »

"Can they deliver"

The list of Black Isle/Obsidian games that absolutely have delivered is like a litany of awesomeness. I'd say it's a safe bet smile
Logged

Mike Dunn
Executive Producer & Managing Editor, GamingTrend
Turtle
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 9423



View Profile WWW
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2012, 10:42:30 PM »

The question should rather be, can they deliver without it being a buggy mess?
Logged
Azhag
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 1839


View Profile
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2012, 10:49:46 PM »

In
Logged
metallicorphan
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 16378



View Profile
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2012, 09:10:51 AM »

$831k already ...31 days to go


Quote from: Turtle on September 14, 2012, 10:42:30 PM

The question should rather be, can they deliver without it being a buggy mess?

I was under the impression that Obsidian games that are buggy are on consoles only,are PC games from them buggy as well?(as this is PC only)
Logged

Manchester United Premier League Champions 2013!!

Xbox LIVE:Metallicorphan
Wii:8565 1513 0206 1960
PSN:Metallicorphan
TiLT
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Online Online

Posts: 6617


Preaching to the choir


View Profile WWW
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2012, 09:29:10 AM »

They've talked about the bugginess of their games several times, and the blame always seems to fall on the publishers for not wanting to spend the money required to get things right, either because they simply don't test the game (which the developer isn't supposed to do on its own in the traditional system), or because they push to get the game out the door too soon. Obsidian tends to get the kind of job where they are delivered a working engine, and told to both learn to use it and write a new game using it in record time. Unlike most studios, they rarely have the luxury of working 2+ years on their titles because of this. Add to this the constant meetings, milestones, iterations, progress reports, etc., and a lot of focus is taken away from the game itself. As Brian Fargo has himself said during development of Wasteland 2, it's refreshing not to have to prove every other month that you're capable of doing the job.
Logged
Enigma
Gaming Trend Reader

Offline Offline

Posts: 192



View Profile
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2012, 05:04:51 PM »

As great as this looks and sounds, I really learned my lesson with Elemental.  I paid for it some 18 months before release...waited months for the supposed patches to make it playable (but not fun or worth my pre-order) and now the promised "free" sequel has the potential to be vaporware.  I think I will just wait for release and read some reviews..maybe play the demo then hop on the bandwagon.
Logged

Now Playing:
PS3: Demon Souls
PC:   Diablo III, Saints Row 3, Anno 1404 (Dawn of Discovery)
WorkingMike
Gaming Trend Reader

Offline Offline

Posts: 350


View Profile
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2012, 05:55:03 PM »

they got my 20 bucks. I have a love/hate relationship with Obsidian, but 20 bucks is nothing for the possibility of some fine gaming.
Logged
TiLT
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Online Online

Posts: 6617


Preaching to the choir


View Profile WWW
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2012, 06:30:35 PM »

Quote from: Enigma on September 15, 2012, 05:04:51 PM

As great as this looks and sounds, I really learned my lesson with Elemental.  I paid for it some 18 months before release...waited months for the supposed patches to make it playable (but not fun or worth my pre-order) and now the promised "free" sequel has the potential to be vaporware.  I think I will just wait for release and read some reviews..maybe play the demo then hop on the bandwagon.

That's a seriously unfair comparison. Elemental was made by a small studio that had created Galactic Civilizations 1 & 2 and Sins of a Solar Empire, and a bunch of applications. Obsidian is a company with numerous well-known and respected developers and designers who've been behind some of gaming's most cherished franchises and who have a track record of producing outstanding games in record time, despite bugs. They've been around for ages and are much loved, for good reason.

This isn't a Stardock game. Your experiences with Elemental are irrelevant.
Logged
Enigma
Gaming Trend Reader

Offline Offline

Posts: 192



View Profile
« Reply #30 on: September 15, 2012, 09:03:58 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on September 15, 2012, 06:30:35 PM

Obsidian is a company with numerous well-known and respected developers and designers who've been behind some of gaming's most cherished franchises and who have a track record of producing outstanding games in record time, despite bugs. They've been around for ages and are much loved, for good reason.

Ok, first off, Gal Civ 1 & 2 were pretty successful games and they are still played today by lots of people.

Second, if Obisidian is so terrifically wonderful, it seems odd that they need to raise $1 million upfront to go forward with this.  They are saying 2014 release...that's a long way in advance.

Quote from: TiLT on September 15, 2012, 06:30:35 PM

This isn't a Stardock game. Your experiences with Elemental are irrelevant.



Irrelevant?  Pay money up-front for a game to be released far in the future from a group of people who made previously successful titles.  Hmm, seems like the same situation to me.  
 
All I'm saying is that too many games with lots of hype and big promises end up falling short.  I'll gladly pay $50 for a well reviewed and good game, but don't really want to pay $20 for the "promise" of a good game. That's just me....but like I said, I have yet to get $50 worth of playtime from Elemental or it's sequel and I paid my money YEARS ago.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2012, 09:11:43 PM by Enigma » Logged

Now Playing:
PS3: Demon Souls
PC:   Diablo III, Saints Row 3, Anno 1404 (Dawn of Discovery)
TiLT
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Online Online

Posts: 6617


Preaching to the choir


View Profile WWW
« Reply #31 on: September 15, 2012, 09:23:04 PM »

Quote from: Enigma on September 15, 2012, 09:03:58 PM

Second, if Obisidian is so terrifically wonderful, it seems odd that they need to raise $1 million upfront to go forward with this.  They are saying 2014 release...that's a long way in advance.

No major publisher would ever fund a game like this, simply because it's too risky, and probably wouldn't earn them enough money to make them feel like it's worth it. Publishers today publish only a handful of games each year using a certain investment model, and stuff like Project Eternity and Wasteland 2 just doesn't fit into that model. That's why they have to raise money upfront. This is a game for gamers, not for publishers.

April 2014 is 1 1/2 years away. That's actually a pretty short time in game development and can only be justified because of the relatively small scale. Traditional game development takes between 2 and 3 years, with some titles taking as much as 8-10 in extreme cases. That Obsidian can get away with this time frame is only because they are highly experienced, use a classic (some would say outdated) type of engine (2d isometric), develop a game in a style they are highly familiar with, because they have tons of internal tools built specifically for this kind of thing (they are also lending these tools to the Wasteland 2 team as part of the deal between them and inXile), and drop things that are traditional time sinks (voice overs, overly fance graphics, and so on). They've probably also done a bit of work ahead of time, though they say they only started seriously thinking about doing this game once Kickstarter turned out to be a hit, so they can't have done much more than a few months of work so far. If they claimed to be able to deliver the game in 1 year or less, I'd be skeptical. April 2014 is realistic though. Expect that date to be pushed even further back if funding reaches a certain level and the scope of the project grows accordingly.

You don't need faith or blind naiveté to believe in this project. You only need to know a bit about what goes on in the business and who these people are. Punishing them for Stardock's mistakes is blatant ignorance, in my opinion, and I don't say that to offend.
Logged
Enigma
Gaming Trend Reader

Offline Offline

Posts: 192



View Profile
« Reply #32 on: September 15, 2012, 09:32:11 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on September 15, 2012, 09:23:04 PM

You only need to know a bit about what goes on in the business and who these people are. Punishing them for Stardock's mistakes is blatant ignorance, in my opinion, and I don't say that to offend.

Sure sounds like a personal attack to me.  I don't know why you choose to go there, but I won't. 

All I'm saying is that I choose to purchase a game after release.  Much like I make most other purchases in life.  That way you know what you are getting.  Makes sense to me.

I'm not punishing anyone or trying to thwart any game designers efforts.  I've been playing computer games for more than 35 years and have seen all kinds of things in the gaming/computer/publishing industry.  I don't think I am being ignorant in my choice not to pre-pay for an unmade game.  Just my 2 cents.
Logged

Now Playing:
PS3: Demon Souls
PC:   Diablo III, Saints Row 3, Anno 1404 (Dawn of Discovery)
Enigma
Gaming Trend Reader

Offline Offline

Posts: 192



View Profile
« Reply #33 on: September 15, 2012, 09:33:48 PM »

P.s.  Just so you know, I hope this game gets released and kicks all kinds of ass.  I'll buy a copy and enjoy it.
Logged

Now Playing:
PS3: Demon Souls
PC:   Diablo III, Saints Row 3, Anno 1404 (Dawn of Discovery)
CeeKay
Gaming Trend Staff
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 71766


La-bibbida-bibba-dum! La-bibbida-bibba-do!


View Profile
« Reply #34 on: September 15, 2012, 10:24:18 PM »

$1,128,911 pledged of $1,100,000 goal !
Logged

Because I can,
also because I don't care what you want.
XBL: OriginalCeeKay
Wii U: CeeKay
CeeKay
Gaming Trend Staff
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 71766


La-bibbida-bibba-dum! La-bibbida-bibba-do!


View Profile
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2012, 02:03:42 AM »

Quote
We are excited to announce the stretch goals for Project Eternity!

1.1 million, Base Goal – Achieved!
Base game includes three races, five classes, and five companions. We have ideas for these, but we want to hear your opinions on what you'd like to see. Stay tuned to Kickstarter, our website, and our forums to join in on the conversation.

1.4 million, New Playable Race, Class, and Companion!
Expands your options for character creation and adds a companion of the new class.

1.6 million, a Mac Version of Project Eternity and The Story Grows!
We've listened and we’ll make a Mac version of the game at this tier. We're also going to add a new major storyline along with new quests, locations, NPCs, and unique loot (special histories everyone?).

1.8 million, New Playable Race, Class, and Companion!
The options grow for your main character and the roster of your motley crew expands with the addition of a new companion from the selected class.

2.0 million, Player House!
Get your own house in the game that you can customize, store equipment in, and where your companions hang out, or, as the elves say, "chillax".

2.2 million, a new Region, a new Faction and another new Companion! And, dare we say it... ? LINUX!
Great news, everyone! For the Tarball Knights of Gzippia out there, we'll be adding Linux support!
Also, the world of Project Eternity grows in a major way with the inclusion of a whole new faction and the territory it holds. This adds new NPCs, quests, magic items, and hours of gameplay. And yes, you got it, another companion.

We've been listening to your feedback, and have the following announcements:

    DRM Free: We are looking into it! Please check back for updates.
    Digital Only Tiers are coming!
    PayPal is coming asap. Please be patient!
    New $5k Tier. We are looking into a new $5k tier since it sold out so quickly! We are looking into equivalent alternatives.
Logged

Because I can,
also because I don't care what you want.
XBL: OriginalCeeKay
Wii U: CeeKay
TiLT
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Online Online

Posts: 6617


Preaching to the choir


View Profile WWW
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2012, 08:45:16 AM »

Quote from: Enigma on September 15, 2012, 09:32:11 PM

Quote from: TiLT on September 15, 2012, 09:23:04 PM

You only need to know a bit about what goes on in the business and who these people are. Punishing them for Stardock's mistakes is blatant ignorance, in my opinion, and I don't say that to offend.

Sure sounds like a personal attack to me.  I don't know why you choose to go there, but I won't. 

Well, I can see why you think so, so I'm sorry. I'll just leave it at that.

Logged
Enigma
Gaming Trend Reader

Offline Offline

Posts: 192



View Profile
« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2012, 06:03:26 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on September 16, 2012, 08:45:16 AM


Well, I can see why you think so, so I'm sorry. I'll just leave it at that.


No worries mate! icon_biggrin
« Last Edit: September 16, 2012, 06:05:33 PM by Enigma » Logged

Now Playing:
PS3: Demon Souls
PC:   Diablo III, Saints Row 3, Anno 1404 (Dawn of Discovery)
Turtle
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 9423



View Profile WWW
« Reply #38 on: September 17, 2012, 12:48:04 AM »

Just so you know, Obsidian really has its own giant misses, along with hothead personalities.

I may have really liked Alpha Protocol, but it really was a messed up game with more bad game design decisions than good.

Every one of those designers you see listed in the header of this kickstarter project is also responsible for some major element of failure, and they're all big personalities that can, and have, dominated the various internal development teams.

That said, I jumped in at the early $20 rate because I do want to see what they can do on their own, I'm just not going to pay full price for it unless they miraculously release a game that's not filled with bugs.
Logged
Azhag
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 1839


View Profile
« Reply #39 on: September 17, 2012, 03:10:06 AM »

I'd also note this is a less ambitious type of project... it's another game in the vein they made like 5 of already... so a lower risk factor.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.142 seconds with 103 queries. (Pretty URLs adds 0.034s, 2q)