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Poll
Question: Have you pre-ordered a next gen console?
Yes, a PS4. - 39 (34.8%)
Yes, an Xbox One. - 5 (4.5%)
Yes, both. - 20 (17.9%)
No I'm going to wait for a while. - 23 (20.5%)
I don't plan on pre-ordering. - 25 (22.3%)
Total Voters: 112

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Author Topic: Next gen purchase poll  (Read 7458 times)
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« Reply #120 on: June 17, 2013, 05:45:31 AM »

I'm glad you're waiting on me - I have a ton of game impressions to post (most being multiplatform), so I'm going to keep this brief as I have a lot to do.

Online persistent worlds are, for the most part, static. They do not experience things like continental drift- what I mean is that nano-changes, not even at a micro level, happen. You ride a mount, the same mount, every time. There is no wear on them, there are no changes. You do not impact the world around you in any significant way. Instances are instances. You don't get to build and customize a house in a neighborhood. You are above the cellophane sheet, where the world you're in is below it.

The possibility of cloud gaming has the possibility to change that. Consider you litter items on the ground, and log out. Your stuff will disappear as the server farms aren't capable of keeping track of it. Perhaps an item was a seed - no tree will grow. Cloud computing can change that if there is a developer interested in doing so.

In the demo shown (Jeff Henshaw), they took all the asteroid data in our solar system from NASA, including size, trajectory, and location per second, and put that into a demo. They had (IIRC) 40,000 asteroids updating, realtime, on display. According to the engineer who built it, it would have taken 10 360's to do the same. Then they stepped back and pulled in an additional 300,000 asteroids and their close-to-precise position - based on proximity to the gamer, all powered by servers in the cloud. That is 500,000 updates per second. They moved around, and the close objects would then be prioritized on the console itself, and the rest are maintained by the cloud.

The significance to using server-side computation means that you're no longer limited to the horsepower in your console, nor are you forced to upgrade as often - your console becomes a portal to the power behind it. MS has stated that a 1.5Mbps (<200KBps) provides an optimal experience.  

Once again, baked in it means this type of system is available to developers for any game they choose to build. It takes the heavy lifting on the one thing that costs gamers money - the hardware they buy. This is truly the next step - consider the processing power needed to render cutscenes in games - by recording it instead it uses smoke and mirrors to let us experience more than what a console can reasonably do.

Think about playing a 700-person, server-hosted war-torn city, and being able to be part of something larger than just replaying the same battles, over and over. Level generation, powerups, etc could all be online and truly random - moving combat into an epic scale. Chromehounds had a galaxy domination - this could be there.

One aspect that has been talked about was "Drivatars" in Forza 5. You get an online Drivatar, which learns your nuances, and the mistakes you make, and continues to race for you with your friends online even when you're not playing. It keeps earning you money, and it means that "generic AI" goes away - you're not racing against the perfect driver, where you know they'll take the line. They'll mess up, just like the player they represent. This happens in the cloud, both in computing your racing style, and also involving your drivatar.

Well, I tried to be brief... slywink
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« Reply #121 on: June 17, 2013, 05:49:45 AM »

Quote from: Turtle on June 17, 2013, 05:38:47 AM

Also, noise cancelling never works that well in real life, give me a boom mic any day. As much as I like the PS4, I actually am very interested in whether the Kinect 2 can actually deliver.

I'd heard from other GT press members that they experienced a bit of motion lag with Fantasia. Dunno if that was due to early development (2014 release). Apparently the camera now sees 2 feet higher, and ~6 feet further back, and several feet closer (not sure on the number for that one).
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« Reply #122 on: June 17, 2013, 12:46:56 PM »

Quote from: Purge on June 17, 2013, 04:09:53 AM

Sit and watch someone play a game. Totally ignore the screen. It takes advantage of motion that already exists. Also, do you want to have things which should be simple be complex? Raven Shields' voice commands were a welcome enhancement, and being able to affect the games outcome naturally is not a bad thing.

The big thing, once again, is that the control methods presented aren't fragmented anymore. Why hit LB to say "Archers, loose arrows!" when you could simply say it? Or respond to questions asked in an RPG with your natural speaking voice? It's not complicated to imagine - it's simply the execution I'm concerned about (looking at the horrid design of Steel Battalion for Kinect1).

This argument doesn't work for me. Remember the six-axis controller, every single PS3 has it, but developers quickly figured out that it sucks. Yes everyone tilts their hands when they are trying to make a hard turn in a racing game, but that doesn't mean that same tilting motion will translate into good gameplay. Hell I can't even remember the last game that actually used six-axis controls. The thumb-stick is king for a reason.

I'm also firmly in the camp that I don't want to yell at my screen to issue commands. This might be cool for some people, and I can see the attraction, but it does nothing for me.
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« Reply #123 on: June 17, 2013, 01:53:08 PM »

MMOs are already cloud computing, I'm not sure why you would expect them to change.
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« Reply #124 on: June 17, 2013, 02:00:15 PM »

Quote from: Scraper on June 17, 2013, 12:46:56 PM

Hell I can't even remember the last game that actually used six-axis controls.

The Last of Us. slywink Your flashlight will occasionally start flickering, and you have to shake the controller to make it work properly again.
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« Reply #125 on: June 17, 2013, 02:35:18 PM »

The head tracking in the last Forza was close to good, I imagine such passive kinect features will be where it truly shines.  Looking into a corner as you turn is such a natural thing to any driver, and the way games don't do this has always felt jarring.
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« Reply #126 on: June 17, 2013, 03:00:08 PM »

Shouting at the TV can be fun, but the bigger problem with it is that it assumes that you're playing in a soundproof room.

I enjoyed saying commands in Skyrim and the Halo update, but was severely limited on when I could do that (daytime only, when no one else was home).  Not because I'd feel goofy, but because I don't want to wake/disturb anyone.

Any game that requires me to talk to my TV is not going to get played.

Like the Cracked article (written by the author of John Dies at the End, BTW), the game companies just aren't getting it.  They're seeing the numbers on a page.  They are not seeing the actual real-life experiences, needs and limitations of their audience.  And they're starting to suffer for it.

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« Reply #127 on: June 17, 2013, 06:53:53 PM »

Quote from: forgeforsaken on June 17, 2013, 01:53:08 PM

MMOs are already cloud computing, I'm not sure why you would expect them to change.

Not really. The local client holds all the environmental data - that is not truly "cloud" gaming in the sense where the world changes and the client software doesn't need to, or, updates seamlessly. Remember firing up a game, only to have to wait for patches? Yeah, that step there would be gone, and all the little things you've done, such as littering etc, *could* be persistent. It's up to developers to take advantage of that.

Consider playing a game like Just Cause 3 with 64+ players. Events happening on the other side of the world won't affect you, but they are still happening. If someone were to launch a missile that can reach where you are, as it gets closer that processing event becomes local to you and anyone near you - but until that happens, only the stuff that affects you immediately is on your console itself - think of it as applying how textures load for "viewable" objects, except instead this applies to anything in-game.

As for sixaxis controls, you're talking about two very different technologies - one requires exaggerated movements, applies only to your hands, and doesn't understand nuances. If you're suggesting that the SixAxis controller is on-par with even the current Kinect, I don't think you're going to win that one. The only SixAxis game I loved was Flower - it was done right.

I just dropped $100 today, for both PS4 and Xbox One pre-orders. I'm not wavering on my Xbone preorder though - if I have to skip one it'll likely be the PS4.
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« Reply #128 on: June 17, 2013, 07:06:34 PM »

Quote from: Bullwinkle on June 17, 2013, 03:00:08 PM

Shouting at the TV can be fun, but the bigger problem with it is that it assumes that you're playing in a soundproof room.

I enjoyed saying commands in Skyrim and the Halo update, but was severely limited on when I could do that (daytime only, when no one else was home).  Not because I'd feel goofy, but because I don't want to wake/disturb anyone.

Any game that requires me to talk to my TV is not going to get played.

Like the Cracked article (written by the author of John Dies at the End, BTW), the game companies just aren't getting it.  They're seeing the numbers on a page.  They are not seeing the actual real-life experiences, needs and limitations of their audience.  And they're starting to suffer for it.



The Kinect in Xbox One can read facial expressions. Who says sound is the only trigger - lip reading may work just as well? It can recognize and track heartbeats. I'm not saying that game companies WILL force/require gameplay elements such as speaking (or even whispering), but they could. And that's what I'm looking for in the next gen - new experiences.

This is why I don't own a WiiU - at this time, it offers nothing I feel I'm missing out on. Frankly, I'll likely get one when there is significant price drop, but that would be more related to the interests of my 8yr old and his friends.

PS4 looks very promising, and I love me some smashy-smashy (as Mikagami would say), but Second Son is currently the only title that has my interest piqued. Destiny isn't even exclusive to next-gen consoles, so at this time, I'm not missing out on anything else. (KZ was never anything I needed to play, and I have access to a PS3 so The Last of Us is something I can play when the urge hits me).
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« Reply #129 on: June 17, 2013, 07:31:41 PM »

Quote from: Purge on June 17, 2013, 06:53:53 PM

Quote from: forgeforsaken on June 17, 2013, 01:53:08 PM

MMOs are already cloud computing, I'm not sure why you would expect them to change.

Not really. The local client holds all the environmental data - that is not truly "cloud" gaming in the sense where the world changes and the client software doesn't need to, or, updates seamlessly. Remember firing up a game, only to have to wait for patches? Yeah, that step there would be gone, and all the little things you've done, such as littering etc, *could* be persistent. It's up to developers to take advantage of that.

Consider playing a game like Just Cause 3 with 64+ players. Events happening on the other side of the world won't affect you, but they are still happening. If someone were to launch a missile that can reach where you are, as it gets closer that processing event becomes local to you and anyone near you - but until that happens, only the stuff that affects you immediately is on your console itself - think of it as applying how textures load for "viewable" objects, except instead this applies to anything in-game.

As for sixaxis controls, you're talking about two very different technologies - one requires exaggerated movements, applies only to your hands, and doesn't understand nuances. If you're suggesting that the SixAxis controller is on-par with even the current Kinect, I don't think you're going to win that one. The only SixAxis game I loved was Flower - it was done right.

I just dropped $100 today, for both PS4 and Xbox One pre-orders. I'm not wavering on my Xbone preorder though - if I have to skip one it'll likely be the PS4.

But the reason the sixaxis was brought up in the first place was just to show that it was available to everyone developing for the system, but it was clear early on that it was more of a nuisance than helpful, and so no one bothered to do much for it.

Kinect is already far in the whole, so far as this goes.  I see that you were impressed by it, but it's going to take a lot to get game makers to get behind it, given the negative opinion already.  Even if they themselves are impressed with it.  It's an uphill battle.

Quote from: Purge on June 17, 2013, 07:06:34 PM

Quote from: Bullwinkle on June 17, 2013, 03:00:08 PM

Shouting at the TV can be fun, but the bigger problem with it is that it assumes that you're playing in a soundproof room.

I enjoyed saying commands in Skyrim and the Halo update, but was severely limited on when I could do that (daytime only, when no one else was home).  Not because I'd feel goofy, but because I don't want to wake/disturb anyone.

Any game that requires me to talk to my TV is not going to get played.

Like the Cracked article (written by the author of John Dies at the End, BTW), the game companies just aren't getting it.  They're seeing the numbers on a page.  They are not seeing the actual real-life experiences, needs and limitations of their audience.  And they're starting to suffer for it.



The Kinect in Xbox One can read facial expressions. Who says sound is the only trigger - lip reading may work just as well? It can recognize and track heartbeats. I'm not saying that game companies WILL force/require gameplay elements such as speaking (or even whispering), but they could. And that's what I'm looking for in the next gen - new experiences.

This is why I don't own a WiiU - at this time, it offers nothing I feel I'm missing out on. Frankly, I'll likely get one when there is significant price drop, but that would be more related to the interests of my 8yr old and his friends.

PS4 looks very promising, and I love me some smashy-smashy (as Mikagami would say), but Second Son is currently the only title that has my interest piqued. Destiny isn't even exclusive to next-gen consoles, so at this time, I'm not missing out on anything else. (KZ was never anything I needed to play, and I have access to a PS3 so The Last of Us is something I can play when the urge hits me).

Again skipping past the point of why this was brought up.  There are things the Kinect can do (that the new version can do better), but if they are forced on gamers, they won't all be met with enthusiasm.  The voice thing is cool, but there are many, many times where I won't be able to use it.  The ability to track my movement seems neat, but I make a lot of movements while playing that have nothing to do with the game.  Making me stand up is not something I want to do generally when relaxing and playing, especially when I have to move the heavy coffee table out of the way.  Facial expression recognition - again, I'm not always responding to the game. 

If these things are required in a game, it will likely limit the number of times I play that game.
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« Reply #130 on: June 17, 2013, 07:41:48 PM »

Quote from: Purge on June 17, 2013, 06:53:53 PM

Consider playing a game like Just Cause 3 with 64+ players. Events happening on the other side of the world won't affect you, but they are still happening. If someone were to launch a missile that can reach where you are, as it gets closer that processing event becomes local to you and anyone near you - but until that happens, only the stuff that affects you immediately is on your console itself - think of it as applying how textures load for "viewable" objects, except instead this applies to anything in-game.

I really, really don't see how your example, while interesting in itself, is made possible by the cloud. That kind of thing can easily handled by regular multiplayer servers, or even just a single computer/console running as a host. You're smarter than this. You know that "cloud" is just a buzzword, a jargon term. It can mean any number of things. In the case of Xbox One, everything we've seen indicates that it means a bunch of virtual servers. That's not impressive. Sony has the same thing, and so does Nintendo.

Here's what's really going to happen: Microsoft will charge publishers out the nose for using server processing. The more taxing a game is on server resources, the higher the cost. Otherwise a single developer with some kind of bright idea could bring down the entire cluster with over-ambitious processing. It's the same thing as with patches and game downloads today. They cost. A lot. In practical terms most developers won't bother with the concept unless Microsoft pays them to do so, which doesn't look like it's happening. I mean, the perfect opportunity for Microsoft to show off this stuff would be at E3, with a game that really made the most out of it. Instead we're left with Drivatar (which does absolutely NOTHING an Xbox One or PS4 couldn't handle on its own) and a star "simulation" in a non-gaming situation. That's pretty damn telling right there.

This is just like when your boss comes storming into the office where his programmers sit, eagerly telling them about this fancy new cloud technology he's heard about that will revolutionize his business, only to have the programmers silently sigh, nod along, and pretend that whatever they were already doing is using the cloud. It's a buzzword that most people don't understand, not even most people who've got skills enough to do so if they so bothered.

PS3 has had cloud technology for a while. It's being used for storage, as that's what it's most useful for in a gaming context. Sure, it can be used for number crunching in cancer research or whatever. That's not gaming. Not even close. Gaming has demands that cloud can't deal with.

Let us know when Microsoft actually shows something revolutionary with this stuff. Until then, it's just words and hype.
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« Reply #131 on: June 17, 2013, 07:45:51 PM »

Quote from: Purge on June 17, 2013, 06:53:53 PM

Quote from: forgeforsaken on June 17, 2013, 01:53:08 PM

MMOs are already cloud computing, I'm not sure why you would expect them to change.

Not really. The local client holds all the environmental data - that is not truly "cloud" gaming in the sense where the world changes and the client software doesn't need to, or, updates seamlessly. Remember firing up a game, only to have to wait for patches? Yeah, that step there would be gone, and all the little things you've done, such as littering etc, *could* be persistent. It's up to developers to take advantage of that.

Patches are only going away with something like Onlive or Gaikai which is a PS4 service.  I haven't seen anything about Microsoft moving in that direction nor IMO should they.  You are always going to have client side patches.  Littering can be persistent in MMOs, that's just server side variables.  In fact I'm pretty sure this already exists where you can drop an item, log out close, log back in and find the item still on the ground.   In fact that's how you used to move items between your characters in Diablo 2.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 07:51:35 PM by forgeforsaken » Logged
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« Reply #132 on: June 17, 2013, 07:57:09 PM »

I could not agree more wot h Bullwinkle, I will not playing a game that requires me to talk to the TV.   For the most part I game when my wife and kids are sleeping....
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« Reply #133 on: June 17, 2013, 07:58:40 PM »

Yeah, Purge, all that you're talking about isn't some magical cloud, it's just server dedicated server processing that already exists.

I think the real difference isn't that this cloud system is magical and will allow new things.

But rather, now every game made for the Xbox will have a set amount of MMO-like dedicated server available for free to the developer. That's a better way to put things and will likely be the most common way this is implemented.

Another example is this, you talk about all those asteroids. But frankly, how is that different to the PC's galaxy simulator game/sandbox software? All those asteroids are basically just a point entity with movement values, aka a vector. 40,000 or even 300,000 may seem a lot, but we're in an age where your average game pushes millions of polygons, with a lot more vertexes, and many of those are animating. All those asteroids just don't seem that special.

I think a better example is that a small developer, typically unable to afford the money for dedicated servers, could make a game similar to say, Animal Crossing, and much like that game, he could have everything running in real-time, with his town being run even while he's offline. Likewise, if he's in a different area, other areas could still be simulated.

But they key is that, such things have already been done. Instead of fully simulating and area, it's way more efficient to simply have calls that change the area when you come back to it based on things like time, seasons, character movement, etc.

This really is just marketing hype. While it is very cool that every game will basically have what is equivalent to a dedicated server running stuff in the background without the publisher/developer setting one up, it's not some crazy tech that will change everything. Especially so when most games are already making use of their own dedicated servers for overarching gameplay elements (like The Division, Drive Club, Burnout Paradise, etc.)

It's 2013's version of Blast Processing. Well, not totally, since there is actually something to this, but it's definitely not as big as it seems.

As for kinect voice interfaces. Let's just say there's a reason why fighter pilots have all manual cockpit controls. Voice commands have some nice conveniences. I foresee them becoming popular in the long run, but not for everything.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 08:02:57 PM by Turtle » Logged
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« Reply #134 on: June 17, 2013, 08:04:30 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on June 17, 2013, 07:41:48 PM

Quote from: Purge on June 17, 2013, 06:53:53 PM

Consider playing a game like Just Cause 3 with 64+ players. Events happening on the other side of the world won't affect you, but they are still happening. If someone were to launch a missile that can reach where you are, as it gets closer that processing event becomes local to you and anyone near you - but until that happens, only the stuff that affects you immediately is on your console itself - think of it as applying how textures load for "viewable" objects, except instead this applies to anything in-game.

I really, really don't see how your example, while interesting in itself, is made possible by the cloud. That kind of thing can easily handled by regular multiplayer servers, or even just a single computer/console running as a host. You're smarter than this. You know that "cloud" is just a buzzword, a jargon term. It can mean any number of things. In the case of Xbox One, everything we've seen indicates that it means a bunch of virtual servers. That's not impressive. Sony has the same thing, and so does Nintendo.

Here's what's really going to happen: Microsoft will charge publishers out the nose for using server processing. The more taxing a game is on server resources, the higher the cost. Otherwise a single developer with some kind of bright idea could bring down the entire cluster with over-ambitious processing. It's the same thing as with patches and game downloads today. They cost. A lot. In practical terms most developers won't bother with the concept unless Microsoft pays them to do so, which doesn't look like it's happening. I mean, the perfect opportunity for Microsoft to show off this stuff would be at E3, with a game that really made the most out of it. Instead we're left with Drivatar (which does absolutely NOTHING an Xbox One or PS4 couldn't handle on its own) and a star "simulation" in a non-gaming situation. That's pretty damn telling right there.

This is just like when your boss comes storming into the office where his programmers sit, eagerly telling them about this fancy new cloud technology he's heard about that will revolutionize his business, only to have the programmers silently sigh, nod along, and pretend that whatever they were already doing is using the cloud. It's a buzzword that most people don't understand, not even most people who've got skills enough to do so if they so bothered.

PS3 has had cloud technology for a while. It's being used for storage, as that's what it's most useful for in a gaming context. Sure, it can be used for number crunching in cancer research or whatever. That's not gaming. Not even close. Gaming has demands that cloud can't deal with.

Let us know when Microsoft actually shows something revolutionary with this stuff. Until then, it's just words and hype.

Well... agree and disagree.

In the case of all things 'cloud' (which these days seems to be everything) it all depends on the talent and creativity to use it.  What Microsoft has offered is, as you've said, nothing new from a technical perspective:  They have offered the ability to offload CPU cycles to virtual servers running in Azure.  From what I can gather this seems to be 'free' to developers.  

What matters here is creativity and execution.  Hell, Zynga has been 'cloud gaming' since the beginning of their existence and their games SUCK.  The concept of the cloud is not new or novel.  I've yet to see a creative execution from anyone in the gaming world that makes me go 'ok yeah, that's better.'  Again, we're probably years away from seeing anything good come of this.
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« Reply #135 on: June 17, 2013, 08:19:59 PM »

Kinect 2.0:
The "standing up" thing wasn't a requirement on all games with current-gen tech (which, honestly, is by and far a waste). Steel Batallion (barf) had you sitting, as did the Gunstringer. The standing up thing was to help the low-res Kinect 1 camera find you. Apparently the Kinect 2 doesn't require calibration - it figures out the room, and does the rest seamlessly.

I totally agree that they need to prove the technology - given their position of it being required, it sounds like they're pretty darn confident that it will.

Cloud computing:
If there is anything to take away from this, it's that it gives the system client-server processing power that end users don't have to buy and power on their direct dime. You talk about "virtual servers" as if they are less than stand-alone. That might have been 5-7 years ago, but today? Virtual server tech is on-par with most physical platforms (I can only think of a few exceptions, and they're already outdated).

300,000 servers are up and running around the world. the Live cloud computing model already works - it may have been smoke and mirrors (because hey, I didn't get to see those connections and 500,000 updates per second) but that Asteroid tracking demo left me impressed and the use of it is something that extends far beyond MMOs, Drivatars and bigger deathmatches of today. If they can pop in and give my console the balls to handle bigger worlds, more players, and seamless access, and extend the life of the console generation by a few years? Gaikai vs MS in networking is something I find rather odd. I mean, Microsoft - this is kind of their wheelhouse, you know?

As Ron put it : they're playing the long game. Yeah, they've rubbed some people the wrong way, and some of it I don't like, some of it I'm indifferent to, and some of it has to be done.

Selling a 60 game for 20 bux and having GS/EB selling it for 55 bux? Game servers being shut down due to developers unable to recoup costs after x number of years with no income stream? Not cool, and that needs to be fixed. I think they need to rethink this 24 hour shit. More time (like a weekend at least, a week or more would be nice). Or perhaps an "offline" mode like steam. It's up to them to sort it out.

I'm OK with having my entire library of games online, so when I head over to my buddies house and log in, I can access any game, not be required to install it (streaming is clearly available) day one. It checks in every hour? Cool I guess though several hours would sit better - I'm remote and that's pretty darn reasonable to expect me to be authenticated online accessing licenses. If my buddies Internet goes out, I'm an early adopter of new tech, and like I said - I'm in it for both consoles. Time will tell (we have what, 4 months at the earliest) for these consoles to further develop.

I didn't much like Sony's drum-banging on saving people money at 399, while taking away free online multiplayer (exception being select freemium games). That's called a bait-and-switch, and I can remember when Sony said they'd never EVER charge for multiplayer.

In the end, I can appreciate both sides, and the competition doesn't allow either to rest on their laurels.
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« Reply #136 on: June 17, 2013, 08:21:21 PM »

Quote from: Purge on June 17, 2013, 08:19:59 PM

300,000 servers are up and running around the world.

I don't think Microsoft ever said that those were physical servers. Most likely these are 300,000 virtual servers, which is way, way less impressive.
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« Reply #137 on: June 17, 2013, 08:39:48 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on June 17, 2013, 08:21:21 PM

Quote from: Purge on June 17, 2013, 08:19:59 PM

300,000 servers are up and running around the world.

I don't think Microsoft ever said that those were physical servers. Most likely these are 300,000 virtual servers, which is way, way less impressive.

I'd wager those ARE physical servers
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« Reply #138 on: June 17, 2013, 08:44:29 PM »

Physical servers or not, show me actual implementation. But the reality is, these servers are not the same as actual real-time processing, and that's key. It may give every games some MMO-like features, but every big games is already getting that. And they can't rely on it as well as they could actual hardware.

Key thing to note, the PS4 will still have just as robust an online collection of games. There's no indication that they aren't going to have that digital distribution service, just like MS. And they also have the same play as you download technology. Not all games will be able to use the play as you download tech, for both consoles. It really depends on the game. But, what is nice is that these features will be standard across both systems. I wonder when Steam will implement it since games now will be prepared ahead of time with play as you download in mind.

Bah, don't even get started with bait and switch from last gen. Any comments about not charging were for the PS3, and while it's sad that free online play is going away, there's plenty of other stuff you can get riled up about when you consider you were paying for the 360's glorified matchmaking. Would have been nice to have hardware without massive failure rates that were known about ahead of time, right? PSN may now cost money, but, at least you also get games and discounts from the deal for a confirmed lower cost than XBL. And this talk about the saving money drum beat can be applied just as easily to the 360, do you really want to go back to that talk?

So let's get on a topic that I think both sides can agree on.

2013 is the year they finally figured out the controllers.

Every report says that both companies have done away with any lingering issues for their controllers. From the dual shock 3's crappy triggers and weird analog sticks, to the 360s crappy dpad.

Even the DS4 is wider so people who use their thumb joint instead of the tips on the sticks can play without their thumb tips touching (that grip always seemed weird to me).

The One controller has the awesome impulse tech you were hearing about 4 years ago after the rumble patent lawsuit blew over. Everyone who has tried it says great things about it.
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« Reply #139 on: June 17, 2013, 08:50:21 PM »

Quote from: Purge on June 17, 2013, 08:19:59 PM

I didn't much like Sony's drum-banging on saving people money at 399, while taking away free online multiplayer (exception being select freemium games). That's called a bait-and-switch, and I can remember when Sony said they'd never EVER charge for multiplayer.

Sony said that about the PS3, so taking them to task for something they said about last gen for the next-gen is cherry-picking. Also, you get a lot more value out of PS+ than you do XBL (try a potential of 3 systems worth of value off the same account) AND you don't have to have it for services such as Netflix and the like.

You're trying to prop up some kind of equivalency where there is none.

Oh, and as for this?
Quote
Gaikai vs MS in networking is something I find rather odd. I mean, Microsoft - this is kind of their wheelhouse, you know?
It's kind of even MORE Gaikai's wheelhouse, as they've been doing the actual streaming of games longer than Microsoft has. Oh, and Microsoft's reputation for networking software is not the gold standard you profess it to be. Sure, they've knitted up the huge corporate side of things but anybody with a modicum of sense and the freedom to do so goes with other solutions.
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« Reply #140 on: June 17, 2013, 08:53:40 PM »

Microsoft does not make networking software.  They make software that runs on networks.  To call them networking experts is akin to calling Cisco OS experts.
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« Reply #141 on: June 17, 2013, 08:53:45 PM »

I'll just chime in with my thoughts since I've done all my posting on OO but the discussion over here is more...lively.  icon_biggrin

I owned a PSOne, PS2, Xbox, and Xbox 360, so as platforms go I consider myself fairly neutral. I did skip the PS3 last generation but that was due to pricing/Sony's arrogance more than any beef with the console itself. After they dropped the price on it I would have picked one up for the exclusives had I had the extra money/time (unfortunately I messed around and had two kids in the last 4 years)  icon_eek

I understand Microsoft's take on all this. And to some extent I agree with their end goal. I'd love to have an all-in-one box that does everything. I'd love all my games to be in the "cloud" and never have to worry about a game disc (I find physical media repulsive and avoid it whenever possible). However, I think they completely botched their marketing of all this. Instead of opening our minds to the possibilities, they came across as trying to force the future down our throats.

I'm a gadget geek and I love being on the cutting edge. But I like to feel like that edge is there because someone thinks it's cool and can add fun and excitement to my life. I don't like feeling like these new features exist only so a corporation can make more money off of me. Microsoft has not been shy about wanting to dominate my living room, and frankly, I don't enjoy the prospect of someone "dominating" anything of mine. While ultimately I may really enjoy the features I get from this domination, the attitude makes me want to tell them to get the fuck out of my house.

As far as Kinect goes, I think it's super cool. The tech is amazing. I'm sure it's going to be awesome for workout games, a genre I really enjoyed even with the primitive first Kinect. However, my Kinect got approximately 3 or 4 months of regular use before it became "that damn thing the cat keeps knocking off the TV." The software never materialized, and it makes me super-skeptical that developers will suddenly have this huge change of heart and embrace it this time around. I don't think developers were sitting around going, "Man we'd really love to develop for Kinect but it's just not powerful enough. If only it could detect heartbeats and finger movements, well THEN we'd really have something!" I think A) Most people really don't care much about controlling stuff with movement (or voice, for that matter). B) Most developers don't want to put in the extra energy to code for that stuff when the other major console platform can't do it. I'm afraid Kinect 2.0 will be what Kinect 1.0 was - a showcase for Xbox exclusives that are essentially glorified tech demos.

As far as the DRM goes, it doesn't really affect me. I'm always online. My internet has gone out maybe three times in 10 years. I don't do a lot of game rentals, and I rarely buy used games. However, the gall of it really irritates me. I think stuff like that needs to naturally evolve with market forces, consumer tolerances, etc. It shouldn't be because an 800-pound gorilla comes in and deems it so. So even though it would probably never affect me, I can't in good conscience play a part in ushering in that new era.

My final decision came down to practical concerns - money, the fact that PS4 will likely have more Eastern-flavored games (which I often enjoy more than their Western counterparts), and some logistics of my house/kids (a Kinect in my living room (in a useable location) with two toddlers would quickly become a Dis-Kinect). However, it's a really fascinating story on how these two consoles approached the marketplace. I can't wait to see how it all plays out.





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« Reply #142 on: June 17, 2013, 08:57:08 PM »

Hi Yellowking - long time no see! :-)
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« Reply #143 on: June 17, 2013, 09:01:40 PM »




 icon_lol
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« Reply #144 on: June 17, 2013, 10:46:37 PM »

icon_lol
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« Reply #145 on: June 18, 2013, 01:29:36 AM »

Quote from: Purge on June 17, 2013, 05:45:31 AM

I'm glad you're waiting on me - I have a ton of game impressions to post (most being multiplatform), so I'm going to keep this brief as I have a lot to do.

Online persistent worlds are, for the most part, static. They do not experience things like continental drift- what I mean is that nano-changes, not even at a micro level, happen. You ride a mount, the same mount, every time. There is no wear on them, there are no changes. You do not impact the world around you in any significant way. Instances are instances. You don't get to build and customize a house in a neighborhood. You are above the cellophane sheet, where the world you're in is below it.

The possibility of cloud gaming has the possibility to change that. Consider you litter items on the ground, and log out. Your stuff will disappear as the server farms aren't capable of keeping track of it. Perhaps an item was a seed - no tree will grow. Cloud computing can change that if there is a developer interested in doing so.

I don't think you understand Cloud Computing. There is no different between MMO servers and cloud computing servers. There is nothing that cloud computing servers can do that MMO servers can't.

Now if your version of cloud computing is the peer to peer cloud computing then it might be something that is different from current MMO games, but there is nothing that prevent MMO games from doing some peer to peer cloud computing using the game client application.

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« Reply #146 on: June 18, 2013, 04:52:10 AM »

Quote from: Soulchilde on June 17, 2013, 09:01:40 PM




 icon_lol
icon_biggrin thumbsup
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« Reply #147 on: June 18, 2013, 02:15:37 PM »

Quote from: YellowKing on June 17, 2013, 08:53:45 PM

I'll just chime in with my thoughts since I've done all my posting on OO but the discussion over here is more...lively.  icon_biggrin

I owned a PSOne, PS2, Xbox, and Xbox 360, so as platforms go I consider myself fairly neutral. I did skip the PS3 last generation but that was due to pricing/Sony's arrogance more than any beef with the console itself. After they dropped the price on it I would have picked one up for the exclusives had I had the extra money/time (unfortunately I messed around and had two kids in the last 4 years)  icon_eek

I understand Microsoft's take on all this. And to some extent I agree with their end goal. I'd love to have an all-in-one box that does everything. I'd love all my games to be in the "cloud" and never have to worry about a game disc (I find physical media repulsive and avoid it whenever possible). However, I think they completely botched their marketing of all this. Instead of opening our minds to the possibilities, they came across as trying to force the future down our throats.

I'm a gadget geek and I love being on the cutting edge. But I like to feel like that edge is there because someone thinks it's cool and can add fun and excitement to my life. I don't like feeling like these new features exist only so a corporation can make more money off of me. Microsoft has not been shy about wanting to dominate my living room, and frankly, I don't enjoy the prospect of someone "dominating" anything of mine. While ultimately I may really enjoy the features I get from this domination, the attitude makes me want to tell them to get the fuck out of my house.

As far as Kinect goes, I think it's super cool. The tech is amazing. I'm sure it's going to be awesome for workout games, a genre I really enjoyed even with the primitive first Kinect. However, my Kinect got approximately 3 or 4 months of regular use before it became "that damn thing the cat keeps knocking off the TV." The software never materialized, and it makes me super-skeptical that developers will suddenly have this huge change of heart and embrace it this time around. I don't think developers were sitting around going, "Man we'd really love to develop for Kinect but it's just not powerful enough. If only it could detect heartbeats and finger movements, well THEN we'd really have something!" I think A) Most people really don't care much about controlling stuff with movement (or voice, for that matter). B) Most developers don't want to put in the extra energy to code for that stuff when the other major console platform can't do it. I'm afraid Kinect 2.0 will be what Kinect 1.0 was - a showcase for Xbox exclusives that are essentially glorified tech demos.

As far as the DRM goes, it doesn't really affect me. I'm always online. My internet has gone out maybe three times in 10 years. I don't do a lot of game rentals, and I rarely buy used games. However, the gall of it really irritates me. I think stuff like that needs to naturally evolve with market forces, consumer tolerances, etc. It shouldn't be because an 800-pound gorilla comes in and deems it so. So even though it would probably never affect me, I can't in good conscience play a part in ushering in that new era.

My final decision came down to practical concerns - money, the fact that PS4 will likely have more Eastern-flavored games (which I often enjoy more than their Western counterparts), and some logistics of my house/kids (a Kinect in my living room (in a useable location) with two toddlers would quickly become a Dis-Kinect). However, it's a really fascinating story on how these two consoles approached the marketplace. I can't wait to see how it all plays out.


Nicely said, YK.  It hits on a lot of my feelings as well.

The always online thing (or the used game thing) doesn't really affect me much, but the attitude about it really galls me, and I just don't feel right about supporting something that excludes so many people intentionally (and dismissively, at that).

"Force the future down our throats" really sums it up nicely.
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« Reply #148 on: June 18, 2013, 02:25:23 PM »

I was on the bad side of this the last time it was forced by multiplayer gaming.  There was a time when I was still on Dial-up way past the accepted norm for broadband internet.  Games made a shift to no even allowing dial-up play on PC and I was screwed.  It happens.  This might not be that time, but there does come a time when you just have to move forward without catering to the people stuck in the past technologically.
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« Reply #149 on: June 18, 2013, 03:39:56 PM »

Quote from: Harkonis on June 18, 2013, 02:25:23 PM

I was on the bad side of this the last time it was forced by multiplayer gaming.  There was a time when I was still on Dial-up way past the accepted norm for broadband internet.  Games made a shift to no even allowing dial-up play on PC and I was screwed.  It happens.  This might not be that time, but there does come a time when you just have to move forward without catering to the people stuck in the past technologically.

But it's important to note that word "stuck" you used.

Were you, in fact, stuck with dial-up in the sense that you had no choice as no other options were available in your area?  Or were you stuck in the sense of you chose not to move forward?

There is a decent number of people who are stuck in the former sense, who are 360 owners and who are getting completely hung out to dry by Microsoft on the new console.  Additionally, the attitude about this is appalling: "Fortunately, we have a product for people who don't have internet connections - it's called the Xbox 360."  MS is essentially saying, "Fuck you" to a fair number of their users.  It's no wonder that so many of them are flipping the bird right back.
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« Reply #150 on: June 18, 2013, 03:58:18 PM »

Anything more than Dial-up was simply not available in the area since I lived in a farming area of the boonies.  So I'm pretty sure I said exactly what I meant slywink
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« Reply #151 on: June 18, 2013, 04:07:07 PM »

Quote from: Harkonis on June 18, 2013, 02:25:23 PM

people stuck in the past technologically.

Quote from: Harkonis on June 18, 2013, 03:58:18 PM

I said exactly what I meant slywink



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« Reply #152 on: June 18, 2013, 04:16:29 PM »

Quote from: Harkonis on June 18, 2013, 03:58:18 PM

Anything more than Dial-up was simply not available in the area since I lived in a farming area of the boonies.  So I'm pretty sure I said exactly what I meant slywink

I'm close to being in the same boat. My only option is a 1mgb DSL line. Sucks but it's better than dial up.
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« Reply #153 on: June 18, 2013, 05:21:41 PM »

Time Warner keeps wanting me to upgrade to 50mgb (or mbps or whatever it is), kinda tempted to do it for a month to see if it really makes a difference from what we got now, which is supposed to be 15 but speedtest usually shows 20-25.
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« Reply #154 on: June 18, 2013, 05:27:56 PM »

I don't have a huge problem with the online-only requirement from a content delivery perspective. (It's just unfortunate that DRM neatly dovetails into it). Broadband penetration in the US is nearly 70%. It's likely higher among the demographic that buys and plays games. At some point you've got to move on and give the hold-outs an incentive to get with the times.

Every MMO requires internet access, and you don't hear people complaining that MMO companies are abandoning them as gamers. People have options. If they can't play MMOs, they go play something else. Likewise for those who can't satisfy the Xbox One's online requirements, they can go with a console which doesn't require connectivity.

I would bet money that the next generation of consoles in 2020 (if there is such a thing) will be online-only and nobody will bat an eye.

The used game thing is far more telling of what Microsoft's strategy is. Without that piece of the puzzle, I'd likely be all over an always connected system. However, with that, you know their primary focus with connectivity is from a DRM standpoint and not content delivery.

I had a buddy of mine arguing that this was no different than Steam. However, I pointed out that there wasn't a huge "used PC games" market before Steam. At least not on the scale of used console games sales. There was also value added in that people could buy games from the comfort of their home without driving to a store - it was instant gratification. I believe consoles will get to that point (they've partially there now), but for first run titles there is no value add here. As it stands today, gamers are getting all the hassle of online DRM with none of the benefits (buy from home, cheaper prices).

I hope MS is sincere and they do get to a point where gamers are reaping the benefits. If that day comes, I'll be all over an Xbone. Until then, suck it Trebek!

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« Reply #155 on: June 18, 2013, 05:44:24 PM »

Quote from: YellowKing on June 18, 2013, 05:27:56 PM

I don't have a huge problem with the online-only requirement from a content delivery perspective. (It's just unfortunate that DRM neatly dovetails into it). Broadband penetration in the US is nearly 70%. It's likely higher among the demographic that buys and plays games. At some point you've got to move on and give the hold-outs an incentive to get with the times.

I recently read that 25% of all sold Xbox 360s have never been connected to the internet. Not even once. That's potentially 1/4 of their previous customers that Microsoft are loudly telling everyone that they don't need.

Quote
I would bet money that the next generation of consoles in 2020 (if there is such a thing) will be online-only and nobody will bat an eye.

Absolutely! But that's in the future. This is now. Some people (such as myself) are ready to fully embrace a pure digital console, but I'm in the minority. A small minority. Even those of us who are don't appreciate Microsoft hammering it over our heads. And regardless, there is no reason why we should have to check in every 24 (or 1) hours for digital content. Microsoft doesn't seem to be able to decide if this new generation is digital or retail, and as a result everyone feels punished as if they're in the wrong group. It gets so much easier to just go with Sony, a company that has been slowly and quietly embracing digital downloads for a while now without trying to shove it down our throats. Once the market is ready, Sony will go digital. The market isn't ready.
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« Reply #156 on: June 19, 2013, 04:13:32 AM »

Quote from: TiLT on June 18, 2013, 05:44:24 PM

Quote from: YellowKing on June 18, 2013, 05:27:56 PM

I don't have a huge problem with the online-only requirement from a content delivery perspective. (It's just unfortunate that DRM neatly dovetails into it). Broadband penetration in the US is nearly 70%. It's likely higher among the demographic that buys and plays games. At some point you've got to move on and give the hold-outs an incentive to get with the times.

I recently read that 25% of all sold Xbox 360s have never been connected to the internet. Not even once. That's potentially 1/4 of their previous customers that Microsoft are loudly telling everyone that they don't need.

Quote
I would bet money that the next generation of consoles in 2020 (if there is such a thing) will be online-only and nobody will bat an eye.

Absolutely! But that's in the future. This is now. Some people (such as myself) are ready to fully embrace a pure digital console, but I'm in the minority. A small minority. Even those of us who are don't appreciate Microsoft hammering it over our heads. And regardless, there is no reason why we should have to check in every 24 (or 1) hours for digital content. Microsoft doesn't seem to be able to decide if this new generation is digital or retail, and as a result everyone feels punished as if they're in the wrong group. It gets so much easier to just go with Sony, a company that has been slowly and quietly embracing digital downloads for a while now without trying to shove it down our throats. Once the market is ready, Sony will go digital. The market isn't ready.


Very true.

Additionally, YK, comparing an MMO which is a specific type of game that by its nature requires to be online (or have you play in a gymnasium with hundreds of your unknown friends) to a console is beyond apples and oranges.  Also, many of the companies that put out MMOs also have other, new games on the market.  MS has said, "If you can't be online, take our old console and live with it."  They have nearly literally said that.
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« Reply #157 on: June 19, 2013, 04:58:42 AM »

Quote from: gellar on June 17, 2013, 08:53:40 PM

Microsoft does not make networking software.  They make software that runs on networks.  To call them networking experts is akin to calling Cisco OS experts.

Are we talking about you saying that MS, who is one of the biggest names in network operating systems, does not in fact make networking software, as in, say, Network Operating Systems (which may in fact be software for networks)?

Bravo sir, you are correct. You win. (FYI I had a rather snide remark regarding OSI model layers and about MS actually having a cousin who knows someone at Cisco, so it's all cool, but I doubt you'd take it the right way.)

Moving right along, yeah, a 380million dollar company who has been around for two years working with an errant keeper of personal data doesn't hold the same clout as one who can drop 8.5 billion into buying Skype, make a ton of money running the networks of many, many, many companies, or introducing Live gameplay a decade ago for consoles. It's not something I'm making up - you can look into it online.

As for the "cloud computing" you guys realize that it is simply a technology, and it's application has been opened up for developers to leverage - not simply to just host game binaries / streaming / cloud storage, right? There is a functional difference that I think was missed.

It's kinda the last thing I have to say on this (in this thread). I have both my pre-orders, and we'll see where this next gen goes - I'm going where the games are that I want to play and offer new experiences, and sofar, that isn't WiiU.

:shrug:
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« Reply #158 on: June 19, 2013, 05:38:08 AM »

Quote from: Purge on June 19, 2013, 04:58:42 AM

It's kinda the last thing I have to say on this (in this thread).

THANK YOU
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« Reply #159 on: June 19, 2013, 06:36:16 AM »

Quote from: wonderpug on June 19, 2013, 05:38:08 AM

Quote from: Purge on June 19, 2013, 04:58:42 AM

It's kinda the last thing I have to say on this (in this thread).

THANK YOU

Praise Jebus.

Look as a former MSFT employee via acquisition (from their first OMG CLOUD acquisition no less, in 2005), to a MSFT shareholder, to a veteran of the motherfucking modern intranets... I know my shit.  My job is bridging the gap between actual tech and the world who thinks they know tech.  I'm paid handsomely to bridge this gap.  Clearly the guy bridging your gap should be paid more since he has you super convinced.  Kudos to him.
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