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Author Topic: New Version of Dwarf Fortress  (Read 5261 times)
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Eduardo X
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« on: July 15, 2008, 04:50:05 AM »

Diirius the Ace Container was born in 127. He moved from hovel to hovel, and before he was too old, a wolf ambushed him in the hills above his town. He struck the wolf down, and set off on his lifelong quest to kill wolves and cougars. He killed 9 named beasts, meaning beasts who'd gotten powerful enough to be feared by the human towns they lingered near. On top of the 9 beasts, he killed a whopping 138 other animals. And this is after having part of his leg ripped off by a wolf he later killed.

This and more, all from the 2 minutes process to create a new world in the new version of Dwarf Fortress! It is kind of broken, but the world generation has been improved a huge amount. The different races will now war, and mega-beasts will walk the Earth!

For those of you who haven't heard, NO THE GAME WON'T HAVE IMPROVED GRAPHICS UNTIL IT IS SOMEWHAT CLOSE TO RELEASE. We're at version .28, so Toady has a long way to go.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2008, 04:54:18 AM by Eduardo X » Logged

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Canuck
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« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2008, 09:07:40 AM »

Well at least this is one game that you won't have to worry about being obsolete by the time it's released-it's already obsolete!

I wish someone would just steal his idea and make their own game with graphics.

BTW, does it have graphics yet?  Or do I still have to pretend that a comma is a pick axe?
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Eduardo X
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« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2008, 12:19:53 PM »

Quote from: Canuck on July 15, 2008, 09:07:40 AM

Well at least this is one game that you won't have to worry about being obsolete by the time it's released-it's already obsolete!

I wish someone would just steal his idea and make their own game with graphics.

BTW, does it have graphics yet?  Or do I still have to pretend that a comma is a pick axe?
Welcome to Roguelikes!
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baelthazar
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« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2008, 01:02:35 PM »

Actually there is a great mod graphics set for the last version that makes everything look pretty much like what it is supposed to be. He puts it all on one zip file for you so that you do not have to mod it yourself. Here is the site, the set is done by Mike Mayday.

Why did you say this recent update is broken? Should I hang on to the mostly stable former version?

EDIT: I just read on the site... the dwarves sleep forever. Yeah... I think I will hold off.  icon_wink

Bael
« Last Edit: July 15, 2008, 01:04:20 PM by baelthazar » Logged
Eduardo X
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« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2008, 01:14:40 PM »

Quote from: baelthazar on July 15, 2008, 01:02:35 PM

Actually there is a great mod graphics set for the last version that makes everything look pretty much like what it is supposed to be. He puts it all on one zip file for you so that you do not have to mod it yourself. Here is the site, the set is done by Mike Mayday.

Why did you say this recent update is broken? Should I hang on to the mostly stable former version?

EDIT: I just read on the site... the dwarves sleep forever. Yeah... I think I will hold off.  icon_wink

Bael
Give it a day or two, and it'll get fixed. Until then, I'm just reading the history. It's rich!

Edit: The fix is already up!
« Last Edit: July 15, 2008, 01:16:41 PM by Eduardo X » Logged

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Canuck
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« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2008, 01:40:15 PM »

I tried out that new mod just to see what it looked like.  Unfortunately you need to have a pretty decent resolution on your monitor.  It's an admirable effort but unfortunately it's still way too far away from being ready for me to wrap my head around it.  However I look forward to playing 5 years from now when it's actually a finished game.
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« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2008, 09:10:53 PM »

I think I will finally try this game out with the graphics patch, it should look good on my big monitor.

Could give me an excuse to finish an AAR too.
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« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2008, 12:19:57 AM »

Yeah, what if a big team had Dwarf Castle ambitions? We'd probably get some good looking game that incorporated an idea or two of Dwarf Castle's soul and little else - yet one can always hope for the best. And, yeah, as someone who's played Dwarf Castle quite a bit - although not for three or four months - I don't think that mod's enough. Better but I really expect this game to remain a niche within a niche within a cavern with a lost continent undiscovered gem.
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Eduardo X
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« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2008, 04:07:43 AM »

Good god this game is detailed now! Wandering around in adventure mode, I'm actually encountering people with histories! And being ambushed by wolves! It's really fun, finally, rather than incredible confusing.
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« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2008, 04:20:41 AM »

Wow, worst interface ever for the fortress segment.
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Eduardo X
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« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2008, 04:24:03 AM »

Quote from: Turtle on July 16, 2008, 04:20:41 AM

Wow, worst interface ever for the fortress segment.
Have you played it before? Are you saying it's gotten somehow worse?
If not, then yeah, it's a really hard interface. REALLY hard.
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« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2008, 04:35:18 AM »

I haven't played it before.  This is my first time playing it, and it'll likely be my last until there's a mouse driven UI and graphics patch.

The game can have all the depth in the world, but if the interface is so obtuse that most people can't access it, no one will see it.

Forget graphics, this guy needs to write some kind of UI for the game.

Good graphics and a good UI do a lot to enhance the depth of a game.  I get the feeling that the programmer is one of those pure code types that does thing with text still in dos or linux.  He keeps feature creeping before doing something about a core fundamental of the game.  For example, he adds in Z depth into a 2D game in the purest sense, with the ASCII simply unable to represent layers.

People say that we should give him a huge paycheck and he could create a lot, now having played I suspect he might be a bit too stubborn to do the graphics himself or even hire someone if he got that check.  I say the reason why he hasn't gotten that check already is because of the presentation.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 11:28:16 PM by Turtle » Logged
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« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2008, 05:17:37 AM »

Whether it's due to graphics, interface, pacing, or whatever else, I can't seem to pull myself into a number of older games, like say, Ultima (up to and including VII and Underworld), Arena, Wasteland, X-Com, etc. Or any Roguelike for that matter (I've tried IVAN most recently).

But the odd thing is, I was playing the hell out of this game (the Fortress portion anyway) the night I got it and played it for a number of months before I finally set it aside. So I guess it has to have something going for it.
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« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2008, 04:15:05 PM »

I agree with Turtle - the game needs some sort of UI that works...the game makes little sense now as it is...at least, for non-hardcore ascii fans.

there might be the greatest game ever in there somewhere, but I just cant bear to play it the way it looks and works right now.
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baelthazar
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« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2008, 05:05:27 AM »

Quote from: Canuck on July 15, 2008, 01:40:15 PM

I tried out that new mod just to see what it looked like.  Unfortunately you need to have a pretty decent resolution on your monitor.  It's an admirable effort but unfortunately it's still way too far away from being ready for me to wrap my head around it.  However I look forward to playing 5 years from now when it's actually a finished game.

I had a trick that worked for that. Bring your resolution up to 1240x1000 (or whatever that resolution is) and boot up the graphics mod. Then, with Dwarf Fortress running open on the desktop, switch back to the resolution you use, probably 1024x768. The box will resize so that the sides are now on the screen.

Hope that helps!

The UI is nothing if you are a fan of roguelikes or if you grew up in the early days of PC gaming. In fact it is pretty intuitive once you get the hang of it. I always keep up the key command list on the right side, and it works just fine. As far as depth of gameplay is concerned, you will not find anything as good (in the city or civ building genre anyway).

Bael
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« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2008, 08:33:26 AM »

Quote from: baelthazar on July 17, 2008, 05:05:27 AM

As far as depth of gameplay is concerned, you will not find anything as good (in the city or civ building genre anyway).

Bael

That's if you are one of the amazingly small percentage of people that ever manage to find it because you are actually able to wrap your head around the UI which hasn't evolved from before most of us were even born.  I'm played my fair share of wargames and they can be pretty skimpy on UI but this game just blows them all away.  If they ever release a game like this (even in a more simplified format) on the DS Lite I will be ALL over it!
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« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2008, 09:57:56 AM »

Quote
Extended ASCII character set rendered in 16 colors (including black) as well as 8 background colors (including black).

INCLUDING BLACK!!  icon_lol
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Eduardo X
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« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2008, 12:31:30 PM »

Quote from: Canuck on July 17, 2008, 08:33:26 AM

Quote from: baelthazar on July 17, 2008, 05:05:27 AM

As far as depth of gameplay is concerned, you will not find anything as good (in the city or civ building genre anyway).

Bael

That's if you are one of the amazingly small percentage of people that ever manage to find it because you are actually able to wrap your head around the UI which hasn't evolved from before most of us were even born.  I'm played my fair share of wargames and they can be pretty skimpy on UI but this game just blows them all away.  If they ever release a game like this (even in a more simplified format) on the DS Lite I will be ALL over it!
Don't forget that the dev plans to completely overhaul the UI and the graphics once the game is somewhat close to finished.
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« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2008, 02:22:20 PM »

I tend to be pretty intolerant of poor UI's, but this game is genuinely so good that I learned the UI and eventually got fairly comfortable with it.
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« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2008, 05:16:13 AM »

Could someone please explain the advantage of building your fortress down instead of horizontally?  I don't think there even was a Z axis in the last version of this game I played.
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« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2008, 05:32:54 AM »

In short, LOTS more space!

You can also farm in non-rock layers (loam, sands, peat, clay) without irrigation. However, you cannot engrave or smooth these materials, so you should rely on the stone areas for dwarf living and eating. You can also dig down to get different types of rocks and mine for minerals.

The Z-axis removed the "every fort gets a river and lava" that was a function of digging deep into the mountain in the old versions. Now lava and water is location dependent, as is adamantine. I suggest using regional prospector, found on the DF wiki.

Bael
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« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2008, 01:47:12 PM »

Thanks, Bael! The changes sound pretty fun.
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« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2008, 01:06:04 AM »

Does anyone know how to use the graphics sets (like the one I linked) manually with the new version. I know you have to copy the graphics files and then change the .ini, but I don't know all of the specifics. Anyone know?

Bael
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« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2008, 12:09:57 PM »

Quote from: baelthazar on July 18, 2008, 05:32:54 AM

In short, LOTS more space!

You can also farm in non-rock layers (loam, sands, peat, clay) without irrigation. However, you cannot engrave or smooth these materials, so you should rely on the stone areas for dwarf living and eating. You can also dig down to get different types of rocks and mine for minerals.

The Z-axis removed the "every fort gets a river and lava" that was a function of digging deep into the mountain in the old versions. Now lava and water is location dependent, as is adamantine. I suggest using regional prospector, found on the DF wiki.

Bael

Oddly enough, the addition of the Z-axis and the way that trickled to other gameplay changes (channels and indoor farming) killed the game for me last time I gave it a shot. There's already so much going on with the game, and the interface is so clunky, that having to relearn the "tried and true" tricks to starting off a successful fortress made the game more of a chore than I was looking for at the time.

And this coming from someone who played an earlier version for a month straight.
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« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2008, 03:19:34 PM »

I really liked this game until I was a few hours in to a fortress. Then things seemed to really spiral out of control. There was so much stuff going on at the same time that I just couldn't keep up with it all. I'd spend five minutes trying to figure out how to make something, only to to turn around and discover that six of my dwarfs were dead in the woods near the entrance. I'd try to figure out what was going on there, only to discover that now my farm had flooded. While all this was going on, a half dozen of my dwarfs would have completely stopped working for who knows what reason. And this sense of "missing half the game while I tended to one problem" only seemed to get worse when I suddenly had 100 dwarfs in the fortress.

While I admire the creativity and complexity of the game, it just didn't scale well for me. I imagine if I spent more time learning the ways to get the dwarfs to manage some of the stuff it would have worked better, but I lost interest before I got to that point. I can't imagine how you keep track of stuff with the addition of a Z-axis.

At some point I hope I'll get the energy up to try to take my understanding of the game to a new level so that it would be fun when the fortress got large.
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Eduardo X
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« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2008, 04:37:14 PM »

The Z axis can make things tough, but the way I see it, you just need to rethink your forts. Farming is now so much easier! The rest... I dunno.
The old saying of "losing is fun" is still quite true, I think. Especially with the new histories that transpire around you as you build your forts.

That said, I've been finding adventure mode to be much more fun than fortress mode in this version. You really get to interact with a living world (though it could be a little more living...), including your old forts!
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« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2008, 09:56:51 PM »

You can pause the game with the spacebar, Godzilla Blitz.
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« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2008, 04:16:16 AM »

Quote from: heloder on July 20, 2008, 09:56:51 PM

You can pause the game with the spacebar, Godzilla Blitz.

Yes, it's been a while, but it wasn't that frantic feeling you get when you're falling behind in a real-time strategy game. It was more that so much was happening that there was no way to keep track of it all. To me it seemed to be more of a design issue where there was so much micromanagement once the fort got big. Again, I realize there was a way to have some of the dwarfs manage some of this stuff, but learning that part of the game (at the time) seemed more like a chore than fun. So I drifted away and haven't taken the time to come back to it yet.

Pausing didn't really help me, because I hadn't seen what happened in the first place. I'd end up pausing, tweaking something, then turning the game on to run for a bit, feeling like that was good, then realizing three or four other things had happened while I was watching whatever it was I was watching.

Edited: Fixed typo.
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Eduardo X
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« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2008, 01:09:44 PM »

I never get my forts past a certain point, Bodzilla, for the same reason. I just get sick of playing once I have to tell over 10 dwarves to stop being idle. However, I don't hesitate to just abandon my forts, which I know is counter-intuitive.
I can't wait for the UI to get updated, and which point I bet the game will be a lot easier to micromanage.
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« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2008, 12:54:00 AM »

Man, I forgot how brutal this game was.  My beautiful fortress was trashed by a lumbering Bronze Colossus.  Although I was sad to see all my precious townsdwarves die, it was pretty funny that the Colossus literally tossed them around.   
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« Reply #30 on: July 24, 2008, 04:02:10 AM »

Quote from: kadnod on July 23, 2008, 12:54:00 AM

Man, I forgot how brutal this game was.  My beautiful fortress was trashed by a lumbering Bronze Colossus.  Although I was sad to see all my precious townsdwarves die, it was pretty funny that the Colossus literally tossed them around.   

I like to play games for the stories that come out of them, and this game was one of the best games I've seen at doing that. It created some awesome stories.
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Eduardo X
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« Reply #31 on: July 24, 2008, 04:22:59 AM »

Quote from: Godzilla Blitz on July 24, 2008, 04:02:10 AM

Quote from: kadnod on July 23, 2008, 12:54:00 AM

Man, I forgot how brutal this game was.  My beautiful fortress was trashed by a lumbering Bronze Colossus.  Although I was sad to see all my precious townsdwarves die, it was pretty funny that the Colossus literally tossed them around.   

I like to play games for the stories that come out of them, and this game was one of the best games I've seen at doing that. It created some awesome stories.
You don't even have to play to get the stories! That's what blows my mind.
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« Reply #32 on: July 24, 2008, 10:38:18 PM »

It's a marvelous game that has so much potential that I'm sure with just some more work Dwarf Fortress would explode from its tiny micro-niche to a small mini-niche.
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« Reply #33 on: July 24, 2008, 11:00:08 PM »

Quote from: JohnathanStrange on July 24, 2008, 10:38:18 PM

It's a marvelous game that has so much potential that I'm sure with just some more work Dwarf Fortress would explode from its tiny micro-niche to a small mini-niche.
Like a lot of these indie games, even a small niche can provide a good income to the developer, especially since they get 100% of the money paid to them.

In this case, that the game is free is staggering. I've donated to Toady, but I'm sure he'd make a large amount of money selling the game.
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« Reply #34 on: August 02, 2008, 04:21:17 PM »

I've been working on my fort for a week or two now, and while it is thriving, I am bored with it and want something horrible to happen so I can abandon it, but alas, I've beat all the bad guys in the map! That includes some named giant groundhogs in a cave I discovered, and a sasquatch. I guess I can wait around until I'm sieged....
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« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2008, 09:00:58 PM »

Are you all stocked up with X-bows, bolts, shields, helmets, etc.? And food?
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