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Author Topic: Miscrosoft: What the hell?  (Read 2365 times)
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Darren8r
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« on: January 11, 2006, 02:41:25 AM »

Ok I'm sure you've all heard that the Xbox is getting a HD-DVD drive in the future, well now I hear they maybe getting a Blu-RAy drive add-on.

Ok so let me get this straight, their going to have 3 disk drives hanging on this Xbox that already over heats? What? Heres my rant:

Start Rant-----------------

Make your mind up Microsoft, what the hell is wrong with your company, you guys put out a console, but your not sure if its good enough, so now your making all these stupid add-ons that are pointless.

Hey, I got a idea! Why dont you just start building a new console that can play every disk format and VHS movies and Tapes, hell, why not records? I'm sure gamers are dieing to bust out their old records and put them in their Xbox 360.

You guys should have named the console the X-Box 180, to later release the 360, the version with everything that you wanted to put into the console.

Booo!

Edit: I just re-reead the Blu-Ray article and it says they want to add it on just for movies, ok so now this is making me believe they're priorties arent in games! And I want an Xbox 360!

----------------- End Rant.(Yea the rants alittle crazy, dont worry about it)

Sooo, what do you guys think?
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« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2006, 02:55:43 AM »

What's your problem?  There is no next gen movie disk standard yet and this way MS can support whichever turns out to be the one mass adopted.  And who cares unless you are going to use the thing for watching movies anyway?  It does not affect the games, period.  Either way the add-on will still be cheaper than buying the player seperately.

People are getting way too worked up over this blu-ray vs HD-DVD thing.  I read the other day that if the movie studios decide to implement a copy protection scheme many current HD TV's wouldn't be able to display the movies in high def anyway since they lack HDMI connections.  The whole thing is ridiculous.
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Darren8r
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« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2006, 03:06:04 AM »

Quote from: "Sarkus"
What's your problem?


No problem, SHOCK, shock. I guess mostly confusion....

I really dont know what it is anymore, I've just never heard of so many things happening at one time and so many disk drives being released for consoles.

Quote from: "Sarkus"
The whole thing is ridiculous.


Exactly my point, I mean is it really nessecary to have all these different formats and to release all these add-ons and copy rights, etc.

And I hate how people always refer to it as HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray. I mean none of the formats even exsist yet and its already a war. Talk about hype.
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« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2006, 04:02:02 AM »

I could give two shits about what format they choose.  In the long run, it doesnt really matter that much anyway.  My xbox360 is for playing games, if I want a blu-ray player, I'll get a stand alone player.  If I want a HDDVD player, I'll get a stand alone player.  This whole add-on boo anti-Microsoft thing is so over-exaggerated by some people it is actually comical (not referring to anyone in this thread or possibly even forum).  I mean sure, Microsoft could have waited an extra year and included one of these drives and charged us an extra $100-$150 for the premium pack.  Personally, I am very glad they didnt do that.
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« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2006, 04:47:40 AM »

Quote from: "GatorFavre"
I could give two shits about what format they choose.  In the long run, it doesnt really matter that much anyway.  My xbox360 is for playing games, if I want a blu-ray player, I'll get a stand alone player.  If I want a HDDVD player, I'll get a stand alone player.  This whole add-on boo anti-Microsoft thing is so over-exaggerated by some people it is actually comical (not referring to anyone in this thread or possibly even forum).  I mean sure, Microsoft could have waited an extra year and included one of these drives and charged us an extra $100-$150 for the premium pack.  Personally, I am very glad they didnt do that.


Werd.

gellar
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denoginizer
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« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2006, 05:55:32 AM »

Quote from: "gellar"
Quote from: "GatorFavre"
I could give two shits about what format they choose.  In the long run, it doesnt really matter that much anyway.  My xbox360 is for playing games, if I want a blu-ray player, I'll get a stand alone player.  If I want a HDDVD player, I'll get a stand alone player.  This whole add-on boo anti-Microsoft thing is so over-exaggerated by some people it is actually comical (not referring to anyone in this thread or possibly even forum).  I mean sure, Microsoft could have waited an extra year and included one of these drives and charged us an extra $100-$150 for the premium pack.  Personally, I am very glad they didnt do that.


Werd.

gellar


I agree.  The last thing I want is my wife trying to watch a move while I'm trying to play on my GAME console.  I will wait until a standard is reached and then I will buy a stand alone player.  This whole thing is getting blown out of proportion.
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« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2006, 12:07:01 PM »

Well I may be the exception but I used my PS2 as a DVD player for about 2 years until I ended up buying a standalone player.  I know several people who do the same even now.
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farley2k
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« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2006, 01:41:43 PM »

It isn't just about movies.  The PS3 will be able to play games on Blu-ray.  Now if Blu-ray wins out then that means PS3 games will be able to have more content, better graphics, etc.  

In 2-3 years people will be talking about how the 360 just can't handle the really big games.
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Arkon
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« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2006, 01:52:19 PM »

Quote from: "farley2k"
It isn't just about movies.  The PS3 will be able to play games on Blu-ray.  Now if Blu-ray wins out then that means PS3 games will be able to have more content, better graphics, etc.  

In 2-3 years people will be talking about how the 360 just can't handle the really big games.


OR 360 games could span disks like many PS1 games did.  I don't have a problem swapping disks in a game.
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« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2006, 02:27:35 PM »

I am glad I didn't get one.

I may eventually, but this is crazy.
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farley2k
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« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2006, 02:58:48 PM »

Quote from: "Arkon"
Quote from: "farley2k"
It isn't just about movies.  The PS3 will be able to play games on Blu-ray.  Now if Blu-ray wins out then that means PS3 games will be able to have more content, better graphics, etc.  

In 2-3 years people will be talking about how the 360 just can't handle the really big games.


OR 360 games could span disks like many PS1 games did.  I don't have a problem swapping disks in a game.


I wouldn't either necessarily but it would be another reason for people to buy a PS3 instead.
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« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2006, 03:30:16 PM »

Quote from: "Arkon"
Quote from: "farley2k"
It isn't just about movies.  The PS3 will be able to play games on Blu-ray.  Now if Blu-ray wins out then that means PS3 games will be able to have more content, better graphics, etc.  

In 2-3 years people will be talking about how the 360 just can't handle the really big games.


OR 360 games could span disks like many PS1 games did.  I don't have a problem swapping disks in a game.

Yeah I understand that.  But here's the thing.  I believe a DVD hold 4.7 gigs of data.  Let's say a developer has a game which has 5-5.5 gigs of content.  Is the publisher going to want to release the game on two discs or are they going to want to cut content to make it fit on one disc because it would be cheaper?
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Arkon
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« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2006, 03:38:16 PM »

Quote from: "warning"
Quote from: "Arkon"
Quote from: "farley2k"
It isn't just about movies.  The PS3 will be able to play games on Blu-ray.  Now if Blu-ray wins out then that means PS3 games will be able to have more content, better graphics, etc.  

In 2-3 years people will be talking about how the 360 just can't handle the really big games.


OR 360 games could span disks like many PS1 games did.  I don't have a problem swapping disks in a game.

Yeah I understand that.  But here's the thing.  I believe a DVD hold 4.7 gigs of data.  Let's say a developer has a game which has 5-5.5 gigs of content.  Is the publisher going to want to release the game on two discs or are they going to want to cut content to make it fit on one disc because it would be cheaper?


Given the cost of media I highly doubt they would make the developer cut content.

All that being said, how close are any of the games that are being released to actually using the capacity of the DVD?  I remember seeing somewhere that only a very small percentage of PS2 games come close to filling the disc.  Look at how expansive Oblivion is/will be and the graphics it will have yet last I heard it will only be 1 DVD.
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Jumangi
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« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2006, 04:10:02 PM »

Quote from: "Arkon"
Quote from: "farley2k"
It isn't just about movies.  The PS3 will be able to play games on Blu-ray.  Now if Blu-ray wins out then that means PS3 games will be able to have more content, better graphics, etc.  

In 2-3 years people will be talking about how the 360 just can't handle the really big games.


OR 360 games could span disks like many PS1 games did.  I don't have a problem swapping disks in a game.


Wether a game comes out on one disk or two(maybe even three) isn't going to determine who sells more. The actual games will and nothing more.


Nor will the HDDVD or Blueray. People talk about the advantage of the PS3 in this area. The diffrence this time vs the PS2 is there was a standard with regular DVD's, this time there's not. Using Blue Ray is a double edged sword for Sony. Yea it helps push their standard but it makes the PS3 that much more expensive to make, and with HDDVD its still not clear who is coming out on top and maybe won't for awhile.  Stuff doesn't become mass market untill there's a clear standard. The whole real "HD era" is in limbo untill one of these wins out.
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Jumangi
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« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2006, 04:12:03 PM »

Quote from: "warning"

Yeah I understand that.  But here's the thing.  I believe a DVD hold 4.7 gigs of data.


Xbox games use dual layer disks like movies do. That gives them around 8+ gigs of usable space(its not the full 9.4 gigs the discs are rated at for some reason).
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« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2006, 05:54:54 PM »

Quote from: "Jumangi"
Quote from: "warning"

Yeah I understand that.  But here's the thing.  I believe a DVD hold 4.7 gigs of data.


Xbox games use dual layer disks like movies do. That gives them around 8+ gigs of usable space(its not the full 9.4 gigs the discs are rated at for some reason).

Thanks.  I actually knew that at one point but forgot all about it.
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corruptrelic
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« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2006, 05:58:13 PM »

The only reason I would have liked to have seen an HD-DVD player (or Blu-ray even) in the original Xbox 360 is so games took take advantage of all that extra space. The way it's going now a lot of developers are running out of space on the double layer discs, what's going to happen in 2 or 3 years from now when the all ps3's come with blu-ray (giving developers up to 50gb per disc to do whatever they want) and the xbox 360 still has just an old-fashioned dvd player?
Yeah probably multiple-disc games although I still think it's a shame, who wants to get up and change discs in the middle of a game?
Microsoft broke up the market enough when they released 2 version of the xbox 360 and there's no way they could break it up even more by allowing game developers to use the HD-DVD or blu-ray add on (which they'e already said anyway) but personally - even if it's just for movies - a standalone blu-ray or hd-dvd player is going to cost a fortune when they first come out, when you can just get a playstation 3 or add-on for the xbox 360 at a much lower cost.
So in my opinion, quite a few people do give "two shits" about it as most of us don't have money growing in our back yards to buy every single device that comes out.
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« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2006, 06:24:00 PM »

Blu-Ray has advantages in space but disadvantages in speed, don't forget.  It is not necessarily a "pure" upgrade from DVD as far as games are concerned.  If you're streaming anything off the DVD you're going to have a tougher time off a Blu-Ray until faster drives come out.
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« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2006, 06:54:41 PM »

Quote from: "kathode"
until faster drives come out.
Hence MS waits. It is a pretty stupid idea for them to have an upgrade, the thing could start a small forrest fire as it is.
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« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2006, 06:57:00 PM »

I dunno, I'm not that bothered by their decision at all.  If I can get either a HD-DVD or BlueRay DVD player that's decent quality for a much less price by buying it as a 360 addon, then more power to me as a consumer.
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« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2006, 08:49:31 PM »

Quote from: "corruptrelic"
The only reason I would have liked to have seen an HD-DVD player (or Blu-ray even) in the original Xbox 360 is so games took take advantage of all that extra space. The way it's going now a lot of developers are running out of space on the double layer discs, what's going to happen in 2 or 3 years from now when the all ps3's come with blu-ray (giving developers up to 50gb per disc to do whatever they want) and the xbox 360 still has just an old-fashioned dvd player?
Yeah probably multiple-disc games although I still think it's a shame, who wants to get up and change discs in the middle of a game?


You're assuming that there isn't a way around the apparent size limitation of the standard DVD disk.  You may be right, but MS has repeatedly stated that they think there are compression techniques that will allow for much greater content capacity.  Seems to be the kind of thing a software giant like MS would be able to pull off.
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« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2006, 10:40:16 PM »

Smaller disc capacity killed the GameCube!!!

I had to swap discs during RE4.  OMG!  Once over the course of 14 hours I had to get off my ass and change discs!  This might have been a problem IF I tried to play it through in one sitting.

Wait, how about the FMV I see in games doesn't look like some 160x120 WMV file blown up to 1280x1024?

Bah!
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« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2006, 11:01:15 PM »

Quote from: "farley2k"
It isn't just about movies.  The PS3 will be able to play games on Blu-ray.  Now if Blu-ray wins out then that means PS3 games will be able to have more content, better graphics, etc.  

In 2-3 years people will be talking about how the 360 just can't handle the really big games.


I don't think that'll be the case.  More storage capacity hasn't made graphics better.  There is still a question of decompressing those textures, etc. that is simply a question of raw power.  It will allow a developer to put more graphics into the 'box' so to speak, but I think we are reaching the saturation point where the graphics are more limited by the graphic card technology than the storage medium.
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« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2006, 11:11:03 PM »

Quote from: "Knightshade Dragon"

It will allow a developer to put more graphics into the 'box' so to speak, but I think we are reaching the saturation point where the graphics are more limited by the graphic card technology than the storage medium.


Exactly, which will make games longer and have more details.

Grand Theft Auto: The World

I can see it now.
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« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2006, 11:55:16 PM »

Quote from: "GatorFavre"
I could give two shits about what format they choose.  In the long run, it doesnt really matter that much anyway.  My xbox360 is for playing games, if I want a blu-ray player, I'll get a stand alone player.  If I want a HDDVD player, I'll get a stand alone player.  This whole add-on boo anti-Microsoft thing is so over-exaggerated by some people it is actually comical (not referring to anyone in this thread or possibly even forum).  I mean sure, Microsoft could have waited an extra year and included one of these drives and charged us an extra $100-$150 for the premium pack.  Personally, I am very glad they didnt do that.



Agree.  Only use my consoles for games and nothing more.  I figure there are only so many hours of life in these things and I don't want to waste a minute of that lifespan on movies.  It is all about the games.
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« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2006, 01:40:44 AM »

I guess the extra capacity of Blu Ray could be used for more hour long cutscenes in games (woo hoo !!!).  But I doubt that actual graphic quality is a function of storage space.  I can just see Metal Gear 5 now.  50 hours of cut scenes and 5 hours of game play.  I can't even immagine the cut scenes in Xenosaga 5 on the PS3.  :shock:
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« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2006, 04:29:13 AM »

Quote from: "GatorFavre"
I could give two shits about what format they choose.  In the long run, it doesnt really matter that much anyway.  My xbox360 is for playing games, if I want a blu-ray player, I'll get a stand alone player.  If I want a HDDVD player, I'll get a stand alone player.  This whole add-on boo anti-Microsoft thing is so over-exaggerated by some people it is actually comical (not referring to anyone in this thread or possibly even forum).  I mean sure, Microsoft could have waited an extra year and included one of these drives and charged us an extra $100-$150 for the premium pack.  Personally, I am very glad they didnt do that.


I'm about in full agreement with Gator.
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« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2006, 05:18:30 AM »

IMO, the PS3's games and selection would have to blow the doors off the XB360.  Otherwise, they just end up being overpriced and late to the show.

IF... and it's a pretty big if... the XB360 can start pushing out some really in-demand games in the next few months, the kind of stuff that will make the PS2 holdouts get up off their butts and really want one, MS has a shot at dethroning Sony.  Maybe not in Japan, though, but if you have the bulk of the US market...

From what I've read, however, it doesn't appear the PS3 is going to be significantly more powerful or different than the XB360, and MS already has an nice advantage with Live.  Plus, hasn't the PS historically been a pain in the @$$ to develop for?

Sony's past successes does give it a good 3rd party stable, however.

But what do I know?  I have a PS1 and GameCube  Tongue
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« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2006, 05:53:12 AM »

Quote from: "Sarkus"
Quote from: "corruptrelic"
The only reason I would have liked to have seen an HD-DVD player (or Blu-ray even) in the original Xbox 360 is so games took take advantage of all that extra space. The way it's going now a lot of developers are running out of space on the double layer discs, what's going to happen in 2 or 3 years from now when the all ps3's come with blu-ray (giving developers up to 50gb per disc to do whatever they want) and the xbox 360 still has just an old-fashioned dvd player?
Yeah probably multiple-disc games although I still think it's a shame, who wants to get up and change discs in the middle of a game?


You're assuming that there isn't a way around the apparent size limitation of the standard DVD disk.  You may be right, but MS has repeatedly stated that they think there are compression techniques that will allow for much greater content capacity.  Seems to be the kind of thing a software giant like MS would be able to pull off.


Currently most games on console that are multiple disc are mostly caused by the in game FMV. Now if PS3 games use HD quality in game movie, then it is unlikely that Microsoft can compress them much smaller than the best video codec available and still retain same video quality.

Microsoft probably can compress at most 10%-20% more that the standard video compression available and that'll be pretty much a miracle to be able to do even that.

I guess if Bluray games become reality, then XBOX 360 version will have lower quality video like 720p vs 1080p or lower fps on XBOX 360 version to fit on DVD media.
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« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2006, 06:15:58 AM »

Quote from: "Victoria Raverna"
Currently most games on console that are multiple disc are mostly caused by the in game FMV. Now if PS3 games use HD quality in game movie, then it is unlikely that Microsoft can compress them much smaller than the best video codec available and still retain same video quality.

Microsoft probably can compress at most 10%-20% more that the standard video compression available and that'll be pretty much a miracle to be able to do even that.

I guess if Bluray games become reality, then XBOX 360 version will have lower quality video like 720p vs 1080p or lower fps on XBOX 360 version to fit on DVD media.


I don't pretend to be an expert on this subject by MS has said on more than one occasion that they believe compression will solve most if not all of the apparent capacity gap between standard DVD's and HD-DVD/Blu Ray technology.

Considering that PC games aren't even pushing DVD technology to it's limits yet, I'm not sure this is an issue we'll have to deal with anytime soon.
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« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2006, 09:49:27 AM »

Quote from: "Sarkus"
Quote from: "Victoria Raverna"
Currently most games on console that are multiple disc are mostly caused by the in game FMV. Now if PS3 games use HD quality in game movie, then it is unlikely that Microsoft can compress them much smaller than the best video codec available and still retain same video quality.

Microsoft probably can compress at most 10%-20% more that the standard video compression available and that'll be pretty much a miracle to be able to do even that.

I guess if Bluray games become reality, then XBOX 360 version will have lower quality video like 720p vs 1080p or lower fps on XBOX 360 version to fit on DVD media.


I don't pretend to be an expert on this subject by MS has said on more than one occasion that they believe compression will solve most if not all of the apparent capacity gap between standard DVD's and HD-DVD/Blu Ray technology.

Considering that PC games aren't even pushing DVD technology to it's limits yet, I'm not sure this is an issue we'll have to deal with anytime soon.


If it is possible to have high quality HD video and make it fit on DVD with this Microsoft secret compression thing, then it is stupid for media company to push HD video on HD-DVD/Blu Ray. It would be a lot cheaper to produce a Microsoft compression compatible 'Super' DVD player instead that play HD Video of same quality of HD-DVD/Blu Ray's video but run from cheap DVD media.

As for comparing to PC games, PC games in general have lower quality FMV. Most multiplatform games have better quality FMV in the console version than the PC version. The reason is to make it fit in CD-ROM media.

Follow that PC games example, we can expect multiplatform games will have better quality on Blu-Ray based PS3 and lower quality FMV in DVD based XBOX 360.
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« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2006, 04:00:34 PM »

Quote from: "Sarkus"

Considering that PC games aren't even pushing DVD technology to it's limits yet, I'm not sure this is an issue we'll have to deal with anytime soon.
I think it's a cost thing. HL2 was 5 disks. Nhl06 was 2. They could fit these on dvds if they wanted to (well not hl2, not on one dvd) but it's cheaper to get and burn.
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« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2006, 08:45:29 PM »

Quote from: "jimmyorr99"
Quote from: "Sarkus"

Considering that PC games aren't even pushing DVD technology to it's limits yet, I'm not sure this is an issue we'll have to deal with anytime soon.
I think it's a cost thing. HL2 was 5 disks. Nhl06 was 2. They could fit these on dvds if they wanted to (well not hl2, not on one dvd) but it's cheaper to get and burn.


HL2 shipped on one DVD for those who got the Collector's Edition.
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« Reply #33 on: January 13, 2006, 04:01:46 AM »

Quote from: "Victoria Raverna"
If it is possible to have high quality HD video and make it fit on DVD with this Microsoft secret compression thing, then it is stupid for media company to push HD video on HD-DVD/Blu Ray. It would be a lot cheaper to produce a Microsoft compression compatible 'Super' DVD player instead that play HD Video of same quality of HD-DVD/Blu Ray's video but run from cheap DVD media.



You can already do this- go pick up the Terminator 2 Special Edition DVD.  It includes a high def version that is only playable via Windows Media Center.  Reviews of the picture quallity were pretty mixed, however, with most feeling that it was only a slight improvement from the DVD and not even up to the standards of D-VHS.  

The big issue, aside from lacking video quality from their codec, is processor power.  It takes a decently powerful PC to decode it so any standalone players that incorporated this technolgy would actually have to include the processing power of a mid-range PC.  

In the end such a measure would be pretty much a stopgap- akin to buying an Enhanced Defintion TV (480p).  

Whether HD-DVD or Bluray wins, it will likely last for a long, long time.  HDTVs have been a long time coming so you can expect the max television resolution to be 1080p for the forseeable future.  Consumers are slow to upgrade their televisions and there really won't be cause for a "new" home media format as long as the current media maxes out the video capabilities of home displays.
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