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Author Topic: Metroid Prime 2: Echoes  (Read 2418 times)
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leo8877
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« on: February 01, 2005, 06:52:08 AM »

Just picked this one up.  Now I loved MP, so I figured this would do it for me too, and so far it has.  Much like the rest of the Nintendo big franchises, I love Metroid games.  After playing this one for a little bit I have to say it's gorgeous.  Retro has really outdone themselves in the graphics dept.  With an S-video connection, the graphics are very crisp and clear for a console game.  

Lots of nice little touches to make the world come alive.  I also like that scans are color coded, I don't remember that being in the first one.  It really helps when you are trying to make sure that you have all pieces accounted for.  I like how the game starts off mysteriously too.  All the scanning is fun for me, so I like to learn the story as I go on.

I'm looking forward to getting deeper into this one, nothing like some Metroid goodness to brighten your day.
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« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2005, 05:20:06 PM »

The game is best described as More Of The Same, but as far as Metroid Prime goes, that's not a bad thing.
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Knightshade Dragon
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« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2005, 05:22:52 PM »

More of the Same = More Scanning = Bleh.  

Can I remap the controls yet?  No thanks...
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leo8877
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« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2005, 05:28:25 PM »

Quote from: "Knightshade Dragon"
More of the Same = More Scanning = Bleh.  

Can I remap the controls yet?  No thanks...


KD what would you do differently?  I was thining as I was playing last night, that they made the controls perfect for this game.

As for scanning, I understand some people won't like that.  I enjoy it though.  Definitely a matter of personal preference.
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AgtFox
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« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2005, 06:17:23 PM »

I'm not much against the controls, but the scanning is ludicrous and a way to synthetically make the game longer.  I am a HUGE Metroid fan and I find myself drawn more to the GBA games (Zero Mission and Fusion) over the GameCube games.  As soon as I heard there would be more scanning in Echoes it went straight off the buy pile...I'll wait for it to drop price.
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« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2005, 06:54:05 PM »

Quote
I'm not much against the controls, but the scanning is ludicrous and a way to synthetically make the game longer. I am a HUGE Metroid fan and I find myself drawn more to the GBA games (Zero Mission and Fusion) over the GameCube games. As soon as I heard there would be more scanning in Echoes it went straight off the buy pile...I'll wait for it to drop price.

Loren and I see eye to eye on the scanning thing.

As far as the controls, they just always felt sluggish to me and it always seemed awkward trying to rapidly switch from the ball mode to the standing mode.  I'd give some specifics but I've long since shelved Metroid.  I'm all about the GBA titles for the classic Metroid Action. smile
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« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2005, 07:00:00 PM »

Quote from: "AgtFox"
I'm not much against the controls, but the scanning is ludicrous and a way to synthetically make the game longer.

I'd bet dollars to doughnuts it was conceived as a way to draw attention away from the control scheme.  By making the player stop and scan every couple of minutes, the devs could use the (now worn out) excuse, "It's not a First Person *Shooter*, it's a First Person *Adventure*."

Tricksy Retro!
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Andrew Mallon
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« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2005, 07:16:11 PM »

I don't get it. Gamers complain that they want innovation over MOTS, and yet every time a game ships with a different control set or slightly different mechanics, those same gamers have a cow. Every complaint I've read about Prime's controls are some variation of "It's different from what I'm used to." Prime's controls are excellent.

I agree that the scanning is  a trifle overdone, though. I think the game would have more personality if you could download audio or video logs, a la System Shock 2. I also don't know why they couldn't have Samus do a voiceover narration. The only GBA Metroid I've played is Fusion, and that features Samus talking directly to the player in cut scenes.
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AgtFox
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« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2005, 08:24:15 PM »

Quote from: "Andrew Mallon"
The only GBA Metroid I've played is Fusion, and that features Samus talking directly to the player in cut scenes.

Zero Mission is just an AWESOME redoing of the original Metroid game.
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HankRaptor
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« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2005, 08:33:14 PM »

The scanning is the reason I didnt get the second one. It felt laborious, and when a game feels like that...
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« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2005, 08:58:13 PM »

Quote from: "Andrew Mallon"
I don't get it. Gamers complain that they want innovation over MOTS, and yet every time a game ships with a different control set or slightly different mechanics, those same gamers have a cow. Every complaint I've read about Prime's controls are some variation of "It's different from what I'm used to." Prime's controls are excellent.

Innovation for innovation's sake doesn't necessarily result in a better product.  I have no problem with MOTS, as long as it's good to begin with, and I have no problem with innovation, as long as it produces better results than the standard.

With MP, It's not that the control scheme is *different*, it's that it's not as good as FPS controls with other games.  And no matter how they try to spin it, MP *is* an FPS.
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Andrew Mallon
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« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2005, 09:17:40 PM »

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With MP, It's not that the control scheme is *different*, it's that it's not as good as FPS controls with other games. And no matter how they try to spin it, MP *is* an FPS.


In what way is it not as good? Metroid Prime's control scheme is better than a standard FPS control scheme in lots of ways. It's the first FPS game where I can jump with near perfect accuracy. The layout of the controls also makes switching between views\weapons intuitive and seamless (and, indeed, is an integral part of the game).
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AgtFox
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« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2005, 09:33:15 PM »

Quote from: "HankRaptor"
The scanning is the reason I didnt get the second one. It felt laborious, and when a game feels like that...

Same here...when I heard scanning was in the new one AND that there was more scanning, I decided to wait for the price to go down before I even think of picking it up.
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Temjin
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« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2005, 11:00:06 PM »

I really enjoyed both the controls and the scanning this time around.  Plus, only 10% or less of the scans are required to finish the game.
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Dinkytoy
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« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2005, 01:32:49 AM »

Question for the..

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What Gamecube games do you like ?
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warning
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« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2005, 01:40:59 AM »

Help a brotha out here.

What is "scanning"?
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leo8877
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« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2005, 02:28:54 AM »

Quote from: "warning"
Help a brotha out here.

What is "scanning"?


One of your visors lets you scan certain objects to get data and bits of information to push the story along.  You also scan things like gates to get them to open and elevators to get them to start.  It basically requires you to press a button, while locked on to an object, as a little progress bar comes back with information.  

I can see how it can be bothersome to people, but I rather enjoy in within a Metroid game.
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AgtFox
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« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2005, 02:53:20 AM »

Quote from: "Dinkytoy"
What Gamecube games do you like?

Hmmm...I never said I didn't like Prime, I just didn't like the scanning and the wallet stretches thin these days, so Echoes gets pushed down a few notches.

As for games I like...well, I'm a huge Zelda, Mario and Metroid fan (always said as long as games in those classifcations are coming I will always own a Nintendo system).  I also think Eternal Darkness is one of the best games ever made for the GameCube, but almost no one bought it.  I enjoyed Super Mario Sunshine a lot, probably more than most people did.  From what I have played of Paper Mario (a Christmas present) I'm liking it a lot.  Wind Waker is a great game (and I can't wait for the next Zelda)...I just think Nintendo lost a step with the Prime series, which is why I'm glad to have 2D Metroid on the GBA.  Prime is certainly a beautiful transition to 3D...I just would have lessened the need for scanning down quite a bit.  I have no qualms with the control like others may have.
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« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2005, 04:03:45 PM »

Quote from: "Dinkytoy"
What Gamecube games do you like ?

Well, my top Gamecube titles are as follows (in no real order):

Metroid Prime
Super Smash Brothers: Melee
Metal Gear Solid: The Twin Snakes
Resident Evil 4
Viewtiful Joe 1&2
F-Zero GX
Tales of Symphonia
The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker

See, the same set of games that everybody else loves. biggrin

I was really worried how well Metroid would work in 3D when I first heard about it. Castlevania has never (IMHO) translated well to 3D (make a sequel to Symphony of the Night, damnit!), so that didn't help matters any. However, as we all know, Metroid became a very good 3D game, hampered by what some call bad controls.

However, I ask you this - if you could redesign the control scheme for Metroid Prime, to make it dual analog, how would you do it without losing the rapid switching of weapons/visors that is needed in this game?
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AgtFox
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« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2005, 04:25:06 PM »

Quote from: "Destructor"
I was really worried how well Metroid would work in 3D when I first heard about it. Castlevania has never (IMHO) translated well to 3D (make a sequel to Symphony of the Night, damnit!), so that didn't help matters any.

Good Lord...there are tons of Castlevania 2D games on the GBA...play those.  Each one has been great (outside of the darkness of the first one...Circle of the Moon).  Like I said earlier, the only place you'll find top notch 2D old-school type games are on the GBA these days.
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« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2005, 03:23:49 AM »

Quote from: "AgtFox"
Quote from: "Destructor"
I was really worried how well Metroid would work in 3D when I first heard about it. Castlevania has never (IMHO) translated well to 3D (make a sequel to Symphony of the Night, damnit!), so that didn't help matters any.

Good Lord...there are tons of Castlevania 2D games on the GBA...play those.  Each one has been great (outside of the darkness of the first one...Circle of the Moon).  Like I said earlier, the only place you'll find top notch 2D old-school type games are on the GBA these days.

Oh, I know. And I've played all of the GBA Castlevania games because of it. But somedays, I'd love to see one on my TV (without the use of the GBA device for the Gamecube). biggrin
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Andrew Mallon
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« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2005, 07:19:42 PM »

Anyone have any tips for getting the last hit in on the spider ball guardian, the one where you have to stun the guardian and then light up all three of the bomb slots? I can usually get two of them to light up with no problems, but the guardian always either gets in my way or is out of position when I try to get to the third slot.
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Andrew Mallon
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« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2005, 03:39:17 PM »

Well, I beat the SOB last night, no thanks to all you losers  :wink: . I didn't realize you could bomb the guardian while he was green and stun him again.
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Andrew Mallon
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« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2005, 04:50:37 PM »

Finished this last night, and I enjoyed Echoes a lot more than the first Prime, although this may be to due to the fact that I actually understood what was expected of me more this time around. With the first game, I think I was more than halfway through before I realized that I was supposed to track all of the different visual clues to find upgrades. I finished the first game at around 60% completion, and beating the game was incredibly difficult and frustrating with the pitiful expansions that I had.

Contrast this with Echoes. I think I found more health tanks and missile upgrades by about the halfway point in this game than I found in the entirety of the first game. Really makes the game’s difficulty much easier to manage. There’s also something incredibly rewarding about standing in a room and thinking to myself, “I know there’s something here” and then coming back a few days later with the proper upgrades and finding it.

I found the game to be really good, with a couple of major issues. First off, why the hell does Retro put save points so far away from the actual boss? The save points for the Boost Ball and Spider Ball guardians were especially egregious. It took me over five minutes to get from the save point back to the entrance to the Spider Ball guardian’s lair. This was really annoying, especially since the game isn’t built like Viewtiful Joe or DMC, where playing through parts of a level again helps by allowing me to purchase upgrades for my character.

The other thing that just really bothered me was the Sky Temple key hunt. The sky temple keys just killed the momentum that the game had built up. I was really enjoying the game, just came off beating Quadraxis, and was ready to move on. Instead, I had to do several hours worth of backtracking across levels that I had already backtracked several times. I understand that a final key hunt is traditional in the Metroid games, but couldn’t they put the key hunt in a new area, or somehow make it more rewarding to the user? I found six keys on my own and then just stopped caring. I used a walkthrough for the other three.

Finally, another gripe is the hint system. I wish there was some other way to find out where to go next, other than just having to either stumble across it randomly or have the hint system pinpoint exactly where to go next. Using the hint system feels like cheating to me, but a lot of times there’s just no other option to figure out what to do. When the player gets an upgrade, it should have some sort of clue indicating where the next one should be found.

Complaints aside, this game is truly excellent. A lot of fun to play, very challenging (I have zero desire to see what ‘hard’ mode is like), with a bit more thinking than I'm used to doing in a game. Still, I can’t help but think that some of the issues I’ve mentioned limit its appeal. I hope that Retro takes a hard look at some of the traditions in the series before starting work on a third game.
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« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2005, 05:48:00 PM »

I really need to get around to playing this.  I got it for Christmas and "previewed" it a bit and really liked what I saw.  Recently playing through both Metroid GBA games has also really got me in the mood for it.  Just have to find the time...
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« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2005, 05:58:25 PM »

Quote from: "Andrew Mallon"
Contrast this with Echoes. I think I found more health tanks and missile upgrades by about the halfway point in this game than I found in the entirety of the first game. Really makes the game’s difficulty much easier to manage. There’s also something incredibly rewarding about standing in a room and thinking to myself, “I know there’s something here” and then coming back a few days later with the proper upgrades and finding it.

The reason you stumbled upon more powerups is simple - Retro was shocked (and embarrased) that you could 'break' the original Metroid Prime so badly. You could skip SO much of the game if you knew what you were doing, it's not even funny.

Let's just say that it's possible to get the Double Jump in the original 5 seconds after landing on the planet.

Let's just say that it's possible to pass through the lava zone (the one you visit right after you get the Varia suit) without the Varia suit.

Retro flat out stated that you could not do this in the sequel. Well, they were proved wrong (by the same guys who broke the original Metroid Prime), but in doing so, Retro made the game much easier, too. The game is much more linear.
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