Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty - well that was weird

[warning]

There will be spoilers in this so watch out if you haven't played it.

I knew this was a controversial game and so I wanted to play it to see what the hype was all about.  And since I loved MGS1 I thought there would be a good chance I'd like the sequel.

And so far I mostly have liked it.  Except for last night I had two completely weird experiences playing the game: I got peed on by a guard and had the President of the United States grab my man-junk.  All in less than an hour!

I have to say I've never had that happen in any game before.

[semiconscious]

I... had the President of the United States grab my man-junk.

pretty timely, eh, considering how many congressmen, supreme court justices, & media people the current administration has by the balls?...

[Kevin Grey]

If you thiink that was weird, just wait until the ending when it really goes off the deep end.

[warning]

If you thiink that was weird, just wait until the ending when it really goes off the deep end.

Yeah.  I'm going into it with pretty moderate expectations.  I already knew about pretty-boy Raiden so that's been ok with me.  I knew there was a pretty heavy cutscene/codec-to-gameplay ratio so that's been okay too.  I knew it wasn't meant to be realistic so the vampire walking on water didn't bug me.  It's a pretty wild ride so far.

I actually can't wait to see how it ends.  I think I'm prepared for just about anything but maybe not.

[TheMissingLink]

I liked MGS2's ending more than The Twin Snakes' ending, if that says anything at it.  Which it really doesn't, but I appreciated the ending even though I was totally wtf-ing the whole time.

[Dafones]

I don't know why, but the Metal Gear series has always been the few games that I've always been almost terrified to play - I'm so intrigued by the thought of them, but I'm almost certain I'd hate them.

Anyway, since I have both a Cube and a PS2, is there any particular order I should play them if I wanted to give them a try? Original PSX MGS, MGS2, MGS3 all on the PS2? Twin Snakes on Cube, then MGS2 and MGS3 on the PS2? MGS3 first, then Twin Snakes, then MGS2 (which I remember someone actually suggesting because of the eras the games take place in)?

Without really spoiling things, are there any major plot differences between the original MGS and the Twin Snakes revamp?

[metallicorphan]

i havent touched the original metal gear solid 1 on the ps1 since the cube version,and i always play them

metal gear solid :the twin snakes-gamecube
metal gear solid2:sons of liberty substance-xbox
metal gear solid 3 snake eater-ps2

even though number 3 is a prequel to the others...i still play it last,and it is still the best for me

the new mgs1,is a lot easier as well now than the original ps1 version,mainly because of the first person view,i was just taking ou all those cameras instead of sneaking past them



and yes,number 2 is wierd,especially when you get the message saying 'this is a video game,stop playing now'...very much like when the screen went black when fighting psycho mantis in the first one


looking forward to number 4,but not surehow its gonna play,as snake is an old man

[TheMissingLink]

Kevin Grey's the Metal Gear expert around these parts, so take my suggestions with a grain of salt until he replies

First of all, there are no differences in The Twin Snakes and the original Metal Gear other than the original being put into the MGS2-style of gameplay.  The cutscenes have been re-edited by a new director, but the plot is the exact same.

As for the order of games, I'd go through the games chronologically.  Not as in when they were released, but the timeline of the games themselves.

MGS3, MGS:TTS, MGS2.

[Kevin Grey]

Kevin Grey's the Metal Gear expert around these parts, so take my suggestions with a grain of salt until he replies

First of all, there are no differences in The Twin Snakes and the original Metal Gear other than the original being put into the MGS2-style of gameplay.  The cutscenes have been re-edited by a new director, but the plot is the exact same.

As for the order of games, I'd go through the games chronologically.  Not as in when they were released, but the timeline of the games themselves.

MGS3, MGS:TTS, MGS2.

I'll counter and say I recommend playing them in chronologic order with Twin Snakes subbing for MGS1 PSX.  So:

MGS:TTS then MGS2 then MGS3

mainly due to gameplay considerations.  MGS3 expands a lot on the core gameplay of MGS1 & 2 so going from 3 to 1 would likely feel very limiting.

[Destructor]

I actually can't wait to see how it ends.  I think I'm prepared for just about anything but maybe not.

No, no you're not. Trust me.

[Darren8r]

I have only played the full story of MGS: 3

Did I like screw up or what?

not 1, not 2 but 3.

[Thin_J]

I actually can't wait to see how it ends.  I think I'm prepared for just about anything but maybe not.

The problem isn't really the end of gameplay, it's the last few cutscenes, and the overall realization about what the story you've just experienced really was.

It kind of feels like a cop-out.

That said, I still love the second game and think it's great fun to actually play.

[warning]

Well I finished it tonight and...

That was fucked up.

[metallicorphan]

:lol: LOL :lol:

i think it was the same for a lot of people....they all wanted to play as snake...not raiden

[Turtle]

I think Raiden was a good idea, but executed very poorly.  It really could have showed Snake from a different perspective, but that's assuming Raiden comes into a character on his own, which he never does.

And of course, they should have had the viewpoint switch between Snake and Raiden at some time to give more playtime as Snake.

[Destructor]

Well I finished it tonight and...

That was fucked up.

As I've said before about MGS2 - all the reviewers who reviewed it so well apparently didn't actually finish the game. The last 10% of the game really screwed up the other 90% of your enjoyment, no?

[warning]

Well I'm more awake now so I'm able to form more coherent thoughts.  Though the story still doesn't make much sense.

Again spoilers ahead so beware.

Sooo....

This was all some sort of training program set up by the Patriots?

The Patriots are an entity that developed the past 200 years in the White House?  What the hell does that mean?  Are they like a psychic dustbunny?

I missed it - why was Olga's baby going to die if Raiden dies?

So the Colonel was really an AI/Patriot/Dustbunny/whatever all along.  Wasn't he in MGS1 also?  Or was that a different person?  Did Snake really never see him in person?

I didn't hate the game - actually the game itself was lots of fun but wowza the story went off the deep end!  Kojima really needed an editor.

I also didn't really like the Big Shell environment.  It seemed a lot of the rooms were used over and over and I grew tired of the drab color scheme.    The last boss was extremely easy but fighting several metal gears at once was rough.   Overall I thought the bosses were much better in MGS1.

I'm glad I played it.  I can understand the WTF? sentiment people have about this game.  And I remembered reading that you should definitely play this before MGS3 otherwise MGS3 will spoil you for this game.

So....  MGS3 does make more sense doesn't it?

[semiconscious]

So....  MGS3 does make more sense doesn't it?

how could it not? ...

tho i agree with you as far as the shell environment getting boring after a while, i strongly object to any suggestions that kojima be 'edited' in any way by anyone - one of the main reasons i love the series is i already know from the outset of each game that i'll be going over the deep end, with the only question being exactly how far...

&, as far as your specific questions about olga's baby & the patriots, I know i came up with a few ideas/explanations at the time, but hell if i can remember them now (it's been a while), tho i'm pretty certain none of them made complete sense - but, hey, that's just the way i prefer my metal gear, anyway ...

[Kevin Grey]

I love the ending.  Yeah it's completely gonzo crazy and a lot of it doesn't make sense but I think the core premise (explained below) is actually fairly brilliant as well as original for the videogame world.  But what I reallly love is that the plot twists come at such a ludicrous rate (practically one every minute that it actually becomes exhilirating.

Anyway my take on the story (spoilers obviously)

There is a group called The Patriots that is essentially the shadow government that manipulates the government, controls the elections, media, textbooks, etc to ensure that people have the illusion of democracy while The Patriots in actuality have total control.  Prior to the Information Age, controlling these things (including the existence of the Patriots themselves) was relatively easy since by controlling the media there wasn't really a platform for expressing opposition or revealing hints to their existence.  Unfortunately, in the online age, the quantity of information being produced, distributed, and accessible to large portions of the populace is overwhelming and impossible to control "the old fashioned way."  In such an environment it's very possible that the evidence of the Patriots' existence could come out and not able to be stifled, possibly undermining all of their power.

Enter Arsenal Gear.  Unlike most super weapons that are concerned with delivering devestating payload, AG is actually a huge supercomputer designed to comb the internet and detect any patterns or information that could lead one to learn of the Patriots and surpress that information.  As a final test of the AI, the Patriots decided to test AG's ability to predict outcomes based on a set of known factors.  So they take the basic elements of the Shadow Moses incident and replay the scenario with Raiden standing in for Solid Snake.  If it plays out exactly like before, then the test will be considered a success, the AG will go online, and the Patriots' secret is safe.  It doesn't work, however, due partially to flaws in the AI as well as the introduction of the real Snake and Otacon as unplanned variables.  

And that's it in a nutshell, as I understand it.  I really love the core idea that information is power and I think Kojima was ahead of his time here.  

As to warning's questions:

This was all some sort of training program set up by the Patriots?

 Basically, yes.  (See above)

The Patriots are an entity that developed the past 200 years in the White House? What the hell does that mean? Are they like a psychic dustbunny?

No one really knows.  It could be explicit, or it could be an analogy.  MGS3 hints at the latter but this will likely be addressed in MGS4.  

I missed it - why was Olga's baby going to die if Raiden dies?

I'm fuzzy on this since it's been about a year and a half since I last replayed it, but if memory serves she was forced against her will to help Raiden in the same manner the Ninja did at Shadow Moses with her baby being the hostage .  

So the Colonel was really an AI/Patriot/Dustbunny/whatever all along. Wasn't he in MGS1 also? Or was that a different person? Did Snake really never see him in person?

The Colonel that talks to Raiden in MGS2 is completely AI.  The Colonel who talks to Snake in MGS1 is a real person.  Hence the fact that he is only "The Colonel" in MGS2 while being given a real name in MGS1.

So.... MGS3 does make more sense doesn't it?

A lot more sense.  MGS3 actually doesn't progress the core plot much.  There is significant info given but it isn't actually of paramount importance to the narrative.  Indeed, one huge revelation is actually relegated to an easy to miss codec conversation.  The core of MGS3's story is about characters not plot.

And MGS3 has significantly improved boss battles over MGS2.  At least the equal of MGS1's bosses and often better.

[warning]

Okay but the last bit after the credits about how the 12 Patriots (including the largest contributor to Otacon and Snake) have all been dead for over a hundred years?  Is that somehow answered in MGS3?  Because that's the one  that really threw me for a loop.

Help me Kevin Grey-obi!  You're my only hope!

[Kevin Grey]

Okay but the last bit after the credits about how the 12 Patriots (including the largest contributor to Otacon and Snake) have all been dead for over a hundred years?  Is that somehow answered in MGS3?  Because that's the one  that really threw me for a loop.

Help me Kevin Grey-obi!  You're my only hope!

Answered directly?  No.  It is referenced though.

[-Lord Ebonstone-]

You're trying to make sense of a Metal Gear Solid ending.  Hah.  Hahaha.  HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

[TheMissingLink]

And MGS3 has significantly improved boss battles over MGS2.  At least the equal of MGS1's bosses and often better.

I just got done battling The End and it was a top-5 gaming moment for me, easily.  SO, +1 to that comment.

[Teggy]

I just want to know what on earth the "La Lay Lou Lay Low" is.

[warning]

I just want to know what on earth the "La Lay Lou Lay Low" is.

Oooh I know this one!  It's another name for The Patriots.

It's also one of the most ridiculous names I've heard and I giggled mightily when someone first spoke the name.

[Darren8r]

And MGS3 has significantly improved boss battles over MGS2.  At least the equal of MGS1's bosses and often better.

I just got done battling The End and it was a top-5 gaming moment for me, easily.  SO, +1 to that comment.

Wait till you get further in the game, you might like other battles, but I think The End was my favorite in the entire game.

[Teggy]

I just want to know what on earth the "La Lay Lou Lay Low" is.

Oooh I know this one!  It's another name for The Patriots.

It's also one of the most ridiculous names I've heard and I giggled mightily when someone first spoke the name.

That's what I thought - but isn't it only spoken once, during the first act of the game?  What is it supposed to mean?