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Author Topic: Manhunt 2 banned in UK  (Read 3177 times)
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metallicorphan
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« on: June 19, 2007, 11:59:49 AM »

typical,a game for the Wii comes along which i finally want ....and the BBFC go and ban it...wimps

http://kotaku.com/gaming/breaking/manhunt-2-banned-in-uk-270070.php

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« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2007, 01:26:06 PM »

This is a question but can you not just get a copy shipped to you from somewhere in the same region?  All the article says is that you can't purchase it in the UK.
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« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2007, 01:38:35 PM »

there are rumours that Australia and Germany will follow suit...and also that the PAL version will be banned altogether

take 2 cant be happy
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« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2007, 01:45:51 PM »

I know that I am kinda a noob in this respect but what does PAL mean??
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« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2007, 01:51:25 PM »

Quote from: papasmurff on June 19, 2007, 01:45:51 PM

I know that I am kinda a noob in this respect but what does PAL mean??

NTSC and PAL are two different video formats for television.  NTSC is used in the US, Canada, Mexico, and Japan.  PAL is used in Europe, South America, and Australia.
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« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2007, 01:55:02 PM »

PAL is short for Phased Alternating Line and refers to the method of decoding color information and drawing scanlines on televisions.  It is mainly used in Europe and parts of Asia while North America and Japan use the NTSC (National Television Standards Committee) standard.  That link (and the partner link to NTSC) will tell you more about it all than you would care to know, but basically PAL is 625 scanlines at 50 Hz and NTSC is 525 at 60 Hz.  

EDIT: beaten to the punch, but posting anyway
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« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2007, 02:26:16 PM »

Or, to put it another way, NTSC is 29.97 frames/second and PAL is 24 frames/second (based on the cinema). 

Like they say, even bad news is good publicity, so this might actually help sales of Manhunt 2. 
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« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2007, 02:31:31 PM »

Quote from: Clay on June 19, 2007, 02:26:16 PM

Or, to put it another way, NTSC is 29.97 frames/second and PAL is 24 frames/second (based on the cinema). . .
(with 20% more vertical resolution)
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« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2007, 02:35:04 PM »

You should hold a tea party!  icon_wink

The game being banned in Germany is no big surprise, same for Australia.  Does the PS3 have PAL and NTSC versions?  cause if not I hear it's region free.....
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« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2007, 02:41:51 PM »

Quote from: CeeKay on June 19, 2007, 02:35:04 PM

The game being banned in Germany is no big surprise, same for Australia.  Does the PS3 have PAL and NTSC versions?  cause if not I hear it's region free.....

There are PAL and NTSC versions, I would guess they'd be region free (when the publisher allows it) for games but not for movies.
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jimmyorr99
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« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2007, 03:10:04 PM »

Ouch, big hit for take 2. I hope this comes out in its true form in the US.
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« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2007, 03:27:12 PM »

Quote from: jimmyorr99 on June 19, 2007, 03:10:04 PM

Ouch, big hit for take 2. I hope this comes out in its true form in the US.

It should...That is the nice this about the US...they can tell whoever to fuck off and only take bad PR.  Last time I checked bad PR was better for sales then any advertising they could ever do.  No one can just ban a game from coming out to my knowledge.  Sure some places wont carry it because they don't want to take crap....but stores will have it.
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« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2007, 07:45:23 PM »

hey, maybe we should deport Jack Thompson to the UK....
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« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2007, 09:33:45 PM »

Quote from: Clay on June 19, 2007, 02:26:16 PM

Or, to put it another way, NTSC is 29.97 frames/second and PAL is 24 frames/second (based on the cinema). 
I thought PAL was 25fps?
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« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2007, 02:42:20 AM »

I'd respect the ban more if it was on account of the game being terrible versus controversial.
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« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2007, 02:45:59 AM »

Quote from: Laner on June 19, 2007, 09:33:45 PM

Quote from: Clay on June 19, 2007, 02:26:16 PM

Or, to put it another way, NTSC is 29.97 frames/second and PAL is 24 frames/second (based on the cinema). 
I thought PAL was 25fps?
You are right, actually.  Films transcribed to PAL run 4% faster, according to Wikipedia.
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« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2007, 04:12:07 AM »

Whoa... the game actually has an AO (Adult Only) rating in the U.S, that's going to severly limit its availability here as well.
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« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2007, 05:19:22 AM »

Quote from: Clay on June 20, 2007, 02:45:59 AM

Quote from: Laner on June 19, 2007, 09:33:45 PM

Quote from: Clay on June 19, 2007, 02:26:16 PM

Or, to put it another way, NTSC is 29.97 frames/second and PAL is 24 frames/second (based on the cinema). 
I thought PAL was 25fps?
You are right, actually.  Films transcribed to PAL run 4% faster, according to Wikipedia.

ohh,for once this was something i had heard,thats why our running times on our DVDs are a few minutes less than yours.....i used to think that nearly every film had been cut in Britain until i heard this icon_lol
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« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2007, 02:18:26 PM »

Quote from: papasmurff on June 19, 2007, 03:27:12 PM

Quote from: jimmyorr99 on June 19, 2007, 03:10:04 PM

Ouch, big hit for take 2. I hope this comes out in its true form in the US.

It should...That is the nice this about the US...they can tell whoever to fuck off and only take bad PR.  Last time I checked bad PR was better for sales then any advertising they could ever do.  No one can just ban a game from coming out to my knowledge.  Sure some places wont carry it because they don't want to take crap....but stores will have it.
yeah, agreed. If nothing else, it'll be availible online.
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« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2007, 03:11:21 PM »

Quote from: papasmurff on June 19, 2007, 03:27:12 PM

Quote from: jimmyorr99 on June 19, 2007, 03:10:04 PM

Ouch, big hit for take 2. I hope this comes out in its true form in the US.

It should...That is the nice this about the US...they can tell whoever to fuck off and only take bad PR.  Last time I checked bad PR was better for sales then any advertising they could ever do.  No one can just ban a game from coming out to my knowledge.  Sure some places wont carry it because they don't want to take crap....but stores will have it.

Not with the AO rating they won't. The big retailers like Walmart simply won't stock an AO game.
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« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2007, 10:09:41 PM »

Finally!  I just heard about the AO rating.  As much as I like games, if any game should have gotten an AO rating, it was Manhunt 1.
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« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2007, 12:48:12 AM »

Both Nintendo and Sony have said that they won't license an AO rated title for any of their systems. What this means is that Rockstar either has to convince the ESRB to rate the game M, or it will have to edit the content in order to get the M rating and be able to release it.


http://www.joystiq.com/2007/06/20/nintendo-and-sony-wont-touch-manhunt-2-with-ao-rating/

It stinks, and what is worse is that we aren't even getting a real "reason" as to why it was rated as such. What content caused it to be banned and rated AO? Is that content core to the game? Can the game still live in an edited form? For some reason, I really think that part of this is a political play.

Also, I think that publishers need to sit down with these ratings boards and revise the ratings again. The only difference between M and AO is the age, 17 versus 18. Personally that doesn't make any sense, what content is so crazy that a 17 year old shouldn't see it versus an 18 year old? The AO rating needs a more clearly defined set of qualities, hell all ratings need better publish standards as to why games fit into such ratings. On top of that, gamers shouldn't sit by idly and allow censorship if it is happening.

The biggest joke is that Hostel 2 was okayed in Britain but Manhunt 2 isn't? Seems like a double standard...
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« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2007, 12:49:54 AM »

Manhunt was such a piece of crap. It was gore porn, and I find it odd that there is so much of that in our media these days now that the US is openly torturing. Jack Bauer's doing it, Eli Roth is, and now video game(s) are going for it.
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« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2007, 01:02:28 AM »

"The biggest joke is that Hostel 2 was okayed in Britain but Manhunt 2 isn't? Seems like a double standard..."
Ironically (and sadly), if this were a movie, it would probably be rated R, as there doesn't seem to be any amount of violence that can get you an NC-17 rating.
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« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2007, 01:16:55 AM »

Quote from: EddieA on June 21, 2007, 01:02:28 AM

"The biggest joke is that Hostel 2 was okayed in Britain but Manhunt 2 isn't? Seems like a double standard..."
Ironically (and sadly), if this were a movie, it would probably be rated R, as there doesn't seem to be any amount of violence that can get you an NC-17 rating.

Exactly! While I don'y care for the content this violent, in either movies or games, I am just uncomfortable that these ratings boards can essentially tell us what we are allowed to play, AND that they use arbitrary rules to make their descisions. Especially would like to know how they determine what level of violence is okay for 17 year olds, and what level you have to be 18 to be able to deal with.

As for Manhunt 2, I think I would have rented the game just to see what the hub-bub was about. IGN said the gameplay was actually really good, but that the game was ultra violent if you wanted to be that way.
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« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2007, 02:42:20 AM »

This whole thing smacks of a Rockstar publicity stunt.  Here's my thinking:

In the movie business, if a movie director wants a lot of violence, they obviously don't want to get an NC-17.  So what they do is edit a version of the movie with quite a bit more gore than they want in the finished film, and submit it to the MPAA, who slaps the NC-17 on it.  Director goes back and re-edits it to the level of gore he originally intended, and re-submits.  MPAA says, "Hmm...that's not nearly as bad as it was before.  R!"  If the director had simply submitted the movie's final form, it's likely that it would have gotten the NC-17, and he would've been forced to cut more than he wanted to get the R.

I suspect a similar thing is going on with Manhunt 2.  Rockstar and Take 2 know full well that Nintendo and Sony don't want an AO game, and neither does Rockstar or Take 2, since the loss of revenue is too great.  Rockstar, wanting to play up their reputation as industry bad boys, and having a good sense of what they can get away with with the ESRB (all them GTAs providing some experience in the matter) submit an intentionally over the top version of the game to the ESRB, and then when they get the expected AO, can allow this to be leaked while going back in and cleaning it up to the intended level of violence, and getting the M.  They can now release the game that's gotten itself a reputation for being "too extreme" to the regular retail market, picking up additional sales.

Of course, it's possible that the AO rating will stick, but you can't convince me that nobody at Rockstar, Take 2, Sony, or Nintendo anticipated that the sequel to Manhunt (which was already pretty borderline) might skirt the AO line, and that they'd find this out two weeks from launch, and simply cut the game from the schedule.  I expect to hear in a week or so that Rockstar has made some adjustments to the game, and has been given the M.  The internet will get up in arms about censorship, and everyone at Rockstar will chuckle because they wound up putting out the game they intended to all along.
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« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2007, 02:59:39 AM »

Okay you just posted that on Neogaf didn't you? Or someone practically paraphrased your post in its entirety...

I also agree with you for the most part. There is no way with R*'s history that they didn't kow what they were getting in to. If this is true it kind of pisses me off. How can I get mad about censorship when it sounds like the developer is in on it all along.

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« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2007, 03:11:12 AM »

I wish someone would actually create a market for AO games, rather than having the rating be some kind of punishment.
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« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2007, 03:16:28 AM »

Wasn't me on neogaf, I don't go over there.  Someone's plagarizing me on the internets?!  Linky pls!  biggrin

Of course, after I posted, I headed over to Dubious Quality only to see that Bill's come to the same conclusions I did, so now it looks like I'm ripping him off.

Edit: Never mind, found it.  Yeah, seems we think alike, me and him.
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« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2007, 05:15:26 AM »

To me, a lot of games out there are already AO.

I'm actually hoping that this move by Rockstar does create an AO market, because if it sells well others might not be so afraid of that rating.  Then hopefully we'll see developers explore what can be done in the rating beyond just violence and gore, and try things like relations, subject matter in general, etc...
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« Reply #30 on: June 21, 2007, 05:30:57 AM »

the Law and order game has just been taken of the shelves here,because it showed real CCTV footage picture of jamie bulger kid ...who was killed...it was the mother of jamie bulger who complained and then it was taken of the shelves

the backstory<<<this actually happened



back in about 1992,here in the UK....a couple of i think 10year olds,took a 4 year old away(jamie bulger) and then killed the kid by repeatedly dropping a brick on his head,the two 10 year olds had got the idea from Childs Play 3.....which then caused every newspaper to go apeshit saying that the film should be banned(i think it was straight to video affair),and eventually it was banned(been re-released on DVD since)...even though the film i think is an 18 certificate,and these 10 year olds had seen it....anyway,now this Law and Order game,used the real CCTV footage in the game of the two kids leading the 4 year old away

so,what i want to know is how come the BBFC let this game through,that showed some thing that really happened,yet they can ban manhunt that is ficticious

okay,maybe manhunt2 should be banned,but i think the case here is Rockstars reputation,whereas the makers of Law and order....well,i am guessing the BBFC didnt even check it out

and as for the makers of the game...who the F**k let that be in the game?.....'oh,we'll use this picture' icon_eek

http://kotaku.com/gaming/whoops/law--order-game-pulled-from-british-shelves-270401.php
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« Reply #31 on: June 21, 2007, 01:20:55 PM »

Quote from: Turtle on June 21, 2007, 05:15:26 AM

To me, a lot of games out there are already AO.

I'm actually hoping that this move by Rockstar does create an AO market, because if it sells well others might not be so afraid of that rating.  Then hopefully we'll see developers explore what can be done in the rating beyond just violence and gore, and try things like relations, subject matter in general, etc...
We can hope. I personally don't have a problem with lots of violence in games. It's odd though, Soldier of Fortune was only a Mature rating and that's one of the most violent games I've ever played. Maybe as graphics improve, the once cartoony violence gets more real and more scarring?
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« Reply #32 on: June 21, 2007, 02:18:09 PM »

It is just amazing to me how often Bill Harris sums up my thoughts!

Quote
A Hypothetical

Let's say I made a very violent video game a few years ago, and it didn't do very well. The entire premise of the game rested on the "kill thrill," and without the sensational violence, the game itself was bland. Critics felt it was a very average game, and once the game shipped, word-of-mouth was lousy.

Now there's a sequel on the way, and it doesn't have much buzz behind it, even though the game is shipping soon.

You need some buzz.

Here's an idea: make the game so ultra-violent, so incredibly offensive, that ratings boards would pull out the ratings equivalent of the death penalty for the game--either banning it outright or giving it the dreaded "Adults Only" rating so that major retailers are unlikely to even carry it once it's released.

Doing that would get you previews like this:
In fact, no game we have ever played or seen is as over-the-top violent or downright gross as this action-stealth splatter fest.

...you can, Wii remote and nunchuk in hands, use a pair of pliers to clamp onto an enemy's testicles and literally tear them from his body in a bloody display; and if that weren't enough, you'll take one of the poor victim's vertebrae along with his manhood. Or, if you'd prefer, you can use a saw blade and cut upward into a foe's groin and buttocks, motioning forward and backward with the Wii remote as you go.

Once the game is banned or rated as adults only, you can go on the PR offensive. Why, you're OUTRAGED that this game has been rated for adults only. It's censorship!

This should get you more publicity than you could ever afford to buy.

Then you'll quietly rework the game, doing whatever needs to be done to ensure that places like Wal-Mart will carry the game (and countries like England will allow it to be sold). The publicity you received initially guarantees that the consumer will believe that your game is the bloodiest, most violent game imaginable, constantly skirting the line of being banned.

PR genius. In a very disgusting way.

So if Manhunt 2 gets re-submitted by Take-Two and gets re-rated, don't be surprised. At all.
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« Reply #33 on: June 21, 2007, 02:32:49 PM »

OK, if they remove the testicle removal by pliers I am so NOT IN.  icon_twisted
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« Reply #34 on: June 21, 2007, 02:48:18 PM »

Quote from: farley2k on June 21, 2007, 02:18:09 PM

It is just amazing to me how often Bill Harris sums up my thoughts!

Bill has a good point but I don't necessarilly agree with him that resubmitting Manhunt 2 for an M-rating is in any way proof that this was actually their strategy.  Take 2 doesn't really have a choice- if they don't get an M-rating then the only avenue for distribution of the game is via PC (and even that likely only direct download). 

So there is absolutely no question in my mind that they will edit/resubmit for an M-rating.  But I'm not 100% that this was actually a publicity stunt on Rockstar's part.  With the first Manhunt getting an M-rating and, as far as I know, other games only receiving AO for sexual content and never for violence, they may have legitimately expected they'd get an M-rating on the sequel. 
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« Reply #35 on: June 21, 2007, 05:48:49 PM »

I feel dirty for not reading dubious quality more often, if ever. I had stopped going to GG when he was doing some of the front pages(that is the same Bill harris right?), and never really followed him anywhere else.

However, after reading his thoughts on the Tyler Blesinski thing, and now this, I will be checking his blog regularly.
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« Reply #36 on: June 21, 2007, 05:54:21 PM »

Quote from: Kevin Grey on June 21, 2007, 02:48:18 PM

So there is absolutely no question in my mind that they will edit/resubmit for an M-rating.  But I'm not 100% that this was actually a publicity stunt on Rockstar's part.  With the first Manhunt getting an M-rating and, as far as I know, other games only receiving AO for sexual content and never for violence, they may have legitimately expected they'd get an M-rating on the sequel. 

I think it entirely depends on how far from an M rating the game is - the ratings boards make it sound like they consider this a systemic issue with the game, and not the case of an individual sequence (e.g. Hot Coffee).  It would be insanely stupid of Rockstar to go for an AO rating with the intent of pulling back to M - development is too pricey.  They'll get enough publicity out of the brutally violent gameplay without compromising their schedule and stability.
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« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2007, 06:07:56 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on June 21, 2007, 05:54:21 PM

  They'll get enough publicity out of the brutally violent gameplay without compromising their schedule and stability.

That's the other thing- with all of the issues that Take 2 has been going through and after the rocky experience of Hot Coffee, I'm not sure that Rockstar is still in the "any publicity is good publicity camp."  With the July release of Manhunt 2 around the corner it might even be in duplication now, ad buys have already occurred, etc.  Delaying the release of the game is probably going to cost a boatload of money.  And, after the hot coffee thing, they certainly aren't going to just comment out code anymore.

I think this AO issue is going to be a huge blow to Take 2 and Rockstar for Manhunt 2's prospects. 
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« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2007, 06:23:09 PM »

I am sorry but Take 2 had to know that neither Nintendo or Sony will allow a 3rd party developer to release an AO game on thier systems.  This just screams publicity stunt to me.  I would wager they already had an M rated version of the game ready but submitted a version so outrageously over the top to get the huge publicity.

Quote
GameSpot has confirmed with Nintendo and Sony that one of those options, which would be to accept the ESRB's judgment and release the game with the AO rating, isn't an option at all. Both companies forbid licensed third-party publishers from releasing games rated AO for Adults Only on their various hardware platforms. Though Manhunt 2 isn't slated for any of Microsoft's systems, the company has also confirmed that it does not allow AO-rated titles on the Xbox or Xbox 360.
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« Reply #39 on: June 21, 2007, 06:34:27 PM »

Quote from: Arkon on June 21, 2007, 06:23:09 PM

I am sorry but Take 2 had to know that neither Nintendo or Sony will allow a 3rd party developer to release an AO game on thier systems.  This just screams publicity stunt to me.  I would wager they already had an M rated version of the game ready but submitted a version so outrageously over the top to get the huge publicity.

Take 2 knowing that AO game isn't allowed does not mandate this as a publicity stunt.  The first Manhunt got an M-rating so I imagine that they expected the sequel to get an M-rating as well. 

To my knowledge the ESRB doesn't provide enough iron-clad guidelines that it was a simple manner for Rockstar to create two versions, one guaranteed to be AO, the other M-rated. 
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