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Author Topic: Left 4 Dead Impressions  (Read 12720 times)
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Isgrimnur
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« Reply #40 on: November 25, 2008, 06:24:02 PM »

Camp I can handle.  Camp implies humor.  I saw none of that to be had. 

I got CoD:W@W.  I'm covered on MP fun.
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« Reply #41 on: November 25, 2008, 07:21:55 PM »

Quote from: Isgrimnur on November 25, 2008, 06:24:02 PM

Camp I can handle.  Camp implies humor.  I saw none of that to be had. 

I got CoD:W@W.  I'm covered on MP fun.

Not the same at all, MP-wise.

And, for me, the campiness comes from fellow players, more than the enemies.  But I have to say, the enemy designs are simple in concept, but they work together fantastically.  Also, you're way oversimplifying the "ripping off HL tongue grabbers."  Those guys move around, whip a tendril out at you, and start pulling you in quickly.  Your self-defense window is very small, so they basically enforce teamplay.  In HL they hid, always in the ceiling and just waited for you to stupidly walk into them before slowly pulling you up.  The Smokers' attacks are more like a Spiderman thing than the HL baddies.   

Honestly, you've dismissed it, and I'm betting there is no convincing you, but I wasn't sold on it from the demo, either, and I've spent way more MP time playing L4D than either CoD or GoW this year.
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« Reply #42 on: November 25, 2008, 07:33:45 PM »

Quote from: Bullwinkle on November 25, 2008, 07:21:55 PM

Honestly, you've dismissed it, and I'm betting there is no convincing you, but I wasn't sold on it from the demo, either, and I've spent way more MP time playing L4D than either CoD or GoW this year.

A necessity on my limited budget with Christmas on the horizon.  I have co-op zombie killing in CoD when I want it.  It's not really an either/or situation.  If I had seen enough to interest me, I might still have put it on my list for after the new year.  But I didn't get nearly enough enjoyment out of it, not even enough to finish the demo. 

I would pick up EndWar, NHL 09, or Mirror's Edge before this one.  And honestly, I won't be picking up any of those before a price drop, most likely.  If I was simply looking for a good MP experience, I would have jumped on GoW2, but my time with the original led me to believe that, as popular as the first was, there wasn't going to be enough changes to warrant me enjoying it as much as CoD.
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« Reply #43 on: November 27, 2008, 09:03:52 PM »

played 4 of 5 levels in the 'no mercy' campaign last night, and i definitely think this has more potential than the cod5 zombie mode.  mainly, there is a survivable goal here as you do progress through the levels assuming you have a good squad.  that's a major hurdle right now.  out of the 8 or so i played with, 3 were constantly running off and getting the horde to aggro on them without backup.  i was constantly seeing so-and-so has been attacked by the witch/tank/hunter/smoker, etc and need help/reviving, or even a respawn. 

sadly, the group i was with just couldn't pull it together long enough to get past the final round before leaving and the ai is just useless in that level.  wading down into the ranks of the undead instead of standing back and working as a group.   i grabbed the minigun and found nobody covering me; attacked from behind.

this game will live or die based on how big the online community gets, and tbh, i don't think this will be all that enjoyable a year from now after the population has moved on.

also, the ai director is a dick.  that last level i was:

hit by the tank and left hanging on the far SE end of the map off a building while an ai partner stood and watched, never moving to help.  none of the human players could figure out where i was, despite the glowing outline around friendlies. 

later on, i was dragged by the first smoker who got to the top of the building in front of the office and was left hanging until 80% of my health was gone just moments after the horde was triggered.

i had a great time while it was good though, and this is the first game in a while which demands good coordination by everyone to survive.  lettuce, we need to have a night and play this with some good people.  we're missing out in favor of everything else imo.
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« Reply #44 on: November 28, 2008, 03:28:07 AM »

Played with Knightshade.  Consensus?  Over...Rated.  Over...Rated.  Graphics?  Sub-par.  Sound?  Sub-par.  Gameplay?  Sub-par.  Mediocre all around.  Not even worth a rent let alone purchasing outright.  Waste of time.    Not even worth playing for free let alone for purchase.

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« Reply #45 on: November 28, 2008, 03:48:33 AM »

Quote from: PeteRock on November 28, 2008, 03:28:07 AM

Played with Knightshade.  Consensus?  Over...Rated.  Over...Rated.  Graphics?  Sub-par.  Sound?  Sub-par.  Gameplay?  Sub-par.  Mediocre all around.  Not even worth a rent let alone purchasing outright.  Waste of time.    Not even worth playing for free let alone for purchase.



Zombies aren't fabulous.
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« Reply #46 on: November 28, 2008, 04:42:46 AM »

Quote from: PeteRock on November 28, 2008, 03:28:07 AM

Played with Knightshade.  Consensus?  Over...Rated.  Over...Rated.  Graphics?  Sub-par.  Sound?  Sub-par.  Gameplay?  Sub-par.  Mediocre all around.  Not even worth a rent let alone purchasing outright.  Waste of time.    Not even worth playing for free let alone for purchase.



Wow, that's an incredibly negative reaction.  While you're certainly welcome to your opinion, I don't know how you can feel so strongly about the gameplay and sound being so sub-par.  I can see how you might feel that way about the graphics.  While I don't agree, and I think they do an admirable job of setting the mood, and portraying a post-zombie apocalypse world while maintaining the ability to display a massive amount of zombies (with a surprising amount of variety in the zombie models), I can see where they might be seen as mediocre.

But I just can't get behind you on the sound and gameplay.  The context voice quotes from the characters are excellent, the ominous sound of one of the boss zombies somewhere in the distance, everything works.  And the gameplay is some of the best designed co-op gameplay I've come across.  While other games, like CoD5, have a co-op mode, it's basically everyone on the same team, and nothing more.  L4D integrates gameplay elements that strongly encourage actual co-op gameplay, like the knockdown system, getting grabbed by a smoker or hunter, or having to move slower so as not to let an injured teammate fall behind.  It's such a complete package, I just don't know what happened in your play session to lead you to such a strong dismissal of what I and many others think is a fantastic co-op experience.
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« Reply #47 on: November 28, 2008, 06:24:50 AM »

Graphics are certainly not technically amazing, but they're very good for what they do, especially with the hordes of zombies that look different.  The sound also does what it's intended to do really well, which is support gameplay.  You can hear incoming hordes from a distance from their screaming, the boss infected can be identified and located by their distinctive sounds, and even the music, does a good job of staying in sync with what's happening, it's not amazing sound but it really helps gameplay.

My main complain is that just 4 campaigns, with only 2 playable in versus makes this a hard buy at $60 or even the $50 it is for PC (which I bought anyway).  But Valve being Valve on the PC will probably release extra content, and I know there will be community maps for the PC, albeit not for consoles.

Admittedly, I have gotten a lot of play from those campaigns.  I'm not much for replaying things by myself, but co-op makes replaying fun.
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« Reply #48 on: November 28, 2008, 06:31:49 AM »

Beat Dead Air tonight, just No Mercy to go.  I really hope they release some new campaigns or something... the 4 they have can get pretty stale.  And I'm just not a fan of versus... makes the game feel like a Team Fortress mod.  I just prefer co-op this time around.
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« Reply #49 on: November 28, 2008, 03:18:18 PM »



Wow Pete...that's a pretty amazing reaction.  I've really enjoying the game, and I've only played the No Mercy campaign.  I'm really determined to beat that one before I move on to another. I've been playing just with friends online and it has been all kinds of tense, funny, and downright edge of your seat a times.  Between this game and Horde mode in GoW2, I've been a happy co-op gamer!

(I've been enjoying it so much, I have L4D on PC and on 360)
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« Reply #50 on: November 28, 2008, 03:22:10 PM »

I do think there's room for a mod or expansion that adds a Survival mode somewhat like CoD5's zombie mode.  Set it in the first 2 weeks right after the infection as the survivors barricade themselves in one place, waiting a rescue that won't come.

It'd be a slightly different game as you have a home base and limited ammo and food supplies.  There would be a map with areas that the survivor players vote on to go to scavenge for weapons, supplies for barricading, and other survivors (lives).
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« Reply #51 on: November 28, 2008, 03:37:15 PM »

Quote from: Turtle on November 28, 2008, 03:22:10 PM

I do think there's room for a mod or expansion that adds a Survival mode somewhat like CoD5's zombie mode.  Set it in the first 2 weeks right after the infection as the survivors barricade themselves in one place, waiting a rescue that won't come.

It'd be a slightly different game as you have a home base and limited ammo and food supplies.  There would be a map with areas that the survivor players vote on to go to scavenge for weapons, supplies for barricading, and other survivors (lives).

someone is working on a Dawn of the Dead campaign for the PC version.  I linked to it somewhere in the PC thread, but it looked like they were doing a good job of recreating the mall from the remake.
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« Reply #52 on: November 29, 2008, 06:53:37 PM »

Quote from: Dreamshadow on November 28, 2008, 03:18:18 PM



Wow Pete...that's a pretty amazing reaction.  I've really enjoying the game, and I've only played the No Mercy campaign.  I'm really determined to beat that one before I move on to another. I've been playing just with friends online and it has been all kinds of tense, funny, and downright edge of your seat a times.  Between this game and Horde mode in GoW2, I've been a happy co-op gamer!

(I've been enjoying it so much, I have L4D on PC and on 360)

My biggest problem was I just didn't feel any motivation or attachment to what was going on in the game.  There just wasn't anything to draw me in.  No storyline, no interesting characters, as we fought our way through wave after wave of zombies, there just seemed to be no point, no motivation.  Nothing to make me want to see what happens next.  I really wanted to like the game, and I was excited to play co-op with Knightshade.  But as we played I just lost interest and got bored.  While the gameplay may be tense and exciting, that's all there seemed to be to the game.  Fighting through zombies to survive.  But why?  I couldn't find a reason, and because there was no attachment I just didn't find any reason to continue.  I was amazingly underwhelmed and terribly disappointed with how little there was to the game. 

I've played through many, many shooters.  And this one just had no personality, nothing interesting to set it apart from any other generic shooter.  I can get the same experience from a quick add-on to COD:W@W. 
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« Reply #53 on: November 29, 2008, 08:40:15 PM »

What difficulty were you playing on.  As far as I've seen, normal brings virtually no challenge.  Advanced is very challenging, and expert is insane, and one of those is what you should be playing on.  No, there is no storyline, but there isn't one in CoD multiplayer either.  The story and investment comes from working with your teammate to survive.  If you're playing on normal, then I can understand not seeing that, since surviving is so easy.
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« Reply #54 on: November 29, 2008, 09:34:06 PM »

I picked this up and gave it a try with my brother yesterday. We did the No Mercy campaign on Normal. It was a very tense and engaging hour and a half, and the ending was insane. When the helicopter landed we made a mad dash up the ramp to the helipad. He was slightly ahead of me, and managed to get to the helicopter. I got grabbed by zombies, and was stuck about halfway up the ramp. Luckily my auto shotgun made short work of them, but when I turned towards the helicopter, I noticed that a tank had jumped and was bashing away at the side of the helicopter, right where I needed to be. My brother and the other two survivors who were already in the chopper were blasting away at it, and I came from behind with the shotgun and managed to finish him off fairly quickly. But just as I was about to get on the chopper myself, a smoker grabbed me from behind, and yanked me off the helipad and I became a quick snack for some nasty zombies.

Awesome game. I can't wait to check out the versus mode tomorrow.
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« Reply #55 on: November 29, 2008, 10:57:19 PM »

Quote from: PeteRock on November 29, 2008, 06:53:37 PM

Quote from: Dreamshadow on November 28, 2008, 03:18:18 PM



Wow Pete...that's a pretty amazing reaction.  I've really enjoying the game, and I've only played the No Mercy campaign.  I'm really determined to beat that one before I move on to another. I've been playing just with friends online and it has been all kinds of tense, funny, and downright edge of your seat a times.  Between this game and Horde mode in GoW2, I've been a happy co-op gamer!

(I've been enjoying it so much, I have L4D on PC and on 360)

My biggest problem was I just didn't feel any motivation or attachment to what was going on in the game.  There just wasn't anything to draw me in.  No storyline, no interesting characters, as we fought our way through wave after wave of zombies, there just seemed to be no point, no motivation.  Nothing to make me want to see what happens next.  I really wanted to like the game, and I was excited to play co-op with Knightshade.  But as we played I just lost interest and got bored.  While the gameplay may be tense and exciting, that's all there seemed to be to the game.  Fighting through zombies to survive.  But why?  I couldn't find a reason, and because there was no attachment I just didn't find any reason to continue.  I was amazingly underwhelmed and terribly disappointed with how little there was to the game. 

I've played through many, many shooters.  And this one just had no personality, nothing interesting to set it apart from any other generic shooter.  I can get the same experience from a quick add-on to COD:W@W. 


I think L4D was made as a blank slate, personality-wise, on pupose.  The characters are archetypes.  For me, the storyline/characterization has always come from the people I'm playing with, and it's always been there to at least some degree.  I actually thought it would work better with someone sitting next to you, but maybe the anonimty helps with the goofy roleplaying that seems to happen.  Regardless, Chaz is right in that the game is beautifully designed to encourage team play.  Really, it's such a part of the gameplay that you barely notice it.  Seemlessly brilliant.
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« Reply #56 on: November 29, 2008, 10:59:13 PM »

Will someone ANYONE be online to play this with me tonight?
!
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« Reply #57 on: November 29, 2008, 11:13:43 PM »

Sorry Sensuous, I'm playing on the PC.
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« Reply #58 on: November 29, 2008, 11:26:36 PM »

Quote from: SensuousLettuce on November 29, 2008, 10:59:13 PM

Will someone ANYONE be online to play this with me tonight?
!

Make sure I'm on your Friends list (I can't remember).  I'm BullwinkleJ on 360.  I will try to get on between 11 and midnight tonight, but it all depends on when the wife gets tired.  Or if I can convince her to kill some zombies, but that seems very unlikely.
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« Reply #59 on: November 30, 2008, 05:59:04 AM »

Had a hoot tonight playing with Bullwinkle and Spigot tonight.

Our 4th, who is a friend of mine from Gears of War, was playing Rambo rather than as a team, but the three of us operated pretty well.

I'm pretty miffed that the helo took off with me right outside of it and I was counted as dead, but that's the breaks.

Definitely fun!

Far more intense than I was expecting and far less humorous than I thought. 

Can't wait to try another level.
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« Reply #60 on: November 30, 2008, 06:13:54 AM »

Quote from: SensuousLettuce on November 30, 2008, 05:59:04 AM

Had a hoot tonight playing with Bullwinkle and Spigot tonight.

Our 4th, who is a friend of mine from Gears of War, was playing Rambo rather than as a team, but the three of us operated pretty well.

I'm pretty miffed that the helo took off with me right outside of it and I was counted as dead, but that's the breaks.

Definitely fun!

Far more intense than I was expecting and far less humorous than I thought. 

Can't wait to try another level.

It was really fun. Glad to be able to play with you guys. Must do again.
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« Reply #61 on: November 30, 2008, 03:54:30 PM »

Quote from: spigot on November 30, 2008, 06:13:54 AM

Quote from: SensuousLettuce on November 30, 2008, 05:59:04 AM

Had a hoot tonight playing with Bullwinkle and Spigot tonight.

Our 4th, who is a friend of mine from Gears of War, was playing Rambo rather than as a team, but the three of us operated pretty well.

I'm pretty miffed that the helo took off with me right outside of it and I was counted as dead, but that's the breaks.

Definitely fun!

Far more intense than I was expecting and far less humorous than I thought. 

Can't wait to try another level.

It was really fun. Glad to be able to play with you guys. Must do again.

It was a good time!  Thanks for setting it up, SL.

The humor comes from who you're playing with.  Personally, I found it hysterical that anytime someone wondered where your buddy was, we'd see his orange silhouette on a totally other floor getting the crap beat out of him.

As for the helicopter, I'm sorry to have been the only one to make it onto the helicopter, but not too sorry!  For next time, just keep in mind that you can keep firing from the helicopter.  At least you still got the survival achievement, SL.
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« Reply #62 on: November 30, 2008, 04:43:27 PM »

My wife and I played through the first campaign on normal last night and had a blast.  We made it to the last stand on the hospital roof and my wife got incompacitated on one of the roofs I could not easily get to as the helo was coming down. I was forced to decide between trying to save her or getting to the chopper.  The look on her face was priceless as I followed the Governator's advice from Predator and went for the chopper.  But just as I was getting to the top of the stairs to the helo pad I was grabbed by a smoker.  Since there was no one left to save me I was toast as my wife was laughing her head off.

Good times.
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« Reply #63 on: November 30, 2008, 05:25:30 PM »

Some tips for normal Versus mode play:

Boomers are the core of the infected team.  All strategies involve them either leading an attack with bile, or other players distracting the Survivors so that the boomer can get into position to cover them in bile.  Not only does Bile blur the vision of all survivors it hits, it also makes them unable to see Warnings and player outlines indicating that someone has been snared or pounced.  The common infected (commons) that come in also server as ammo sinks and damage multipliers, doing more damage and if you had just pounced or snared alone.  When playing as the boomer, note that your vomit attack has a longer range than you'd think, it's an arc attack, so if you want to hit distant targets aim higher, you'll be surprised how far it reaches.

A lone hunter, or even multiple hunters are often ineffective as he'll do a bit of damage then get knocked off.  However, a hunter combined with a horde is nasty.  Pounce on a target just as a horde reaches him and not only will you do damage, but the common infected will swarm around him also doing damage (that adds to your total), the Commons shield you from gunfire as well.  Just a few extra commons helping you on a pounce is enough to drop someone pretty quickly.

In places where there's a ledge nearby and survivors packed together.  If you land a pounce on someone it'll knock survivors away from the point of impact.  Pounce on someone and knock others off a ledge and now you have two people needing rescue, not just one.

Smokers should also consider the same.  Any place where there's a ledge or a drop, try to snare someone from across it so they're either dragged to a different level or hang onto the ledge for rescue.  The 4th level of No Mercy has plenty of places to do this.  Oh, but note that it takes a half second for the snare to attach properly, and some more due to lag, this was deliberate to keep smoker snares from being too powerful.  Try to snare from rooftops, exposing the minimal amount of yourself to the ground as possible.  Look for buildings with rails/rims on the roof, it restricts your view but makes it near impossible to hit you.

When you're the tank and you're faced with survivors out in the open, there will usually be objects that you can punt around to hit survivors.  These are usually cars, boxes, or a forklift.  A tank is slowed down by gunfire and being on fire, four survivors shooting at you at the same time with level 2 weapons will drop a tank quickly.  So, if you try to go for the melee attack you usually can't connect in the open, and if you try for the rock throw the wind up animation for it takes forever and most survivors will flee for cover.  But punting objects around works wonders as it'll usually take only 1 hit to down a survivor.
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« Reply #64 on: December 01, 2008, 02:14:01 PM »

Quote from: Turtle on November 30, 2008, 05:25:30 PM

Some tips for normal Versus mode play:

Boomers are the core of the infected team.  All strategies involve them either leading an attack with bile, or other players distracting the Survivors so that the boomer can get into position to cover them in bile.  Not only does Bile blur the vision of all survivors it hits, it also makes them unable to see Warnings and player outlines indicating that someone has been snared or pounced.  The common infected (commons) that come in also server as ammo sinks and damage multipliers, doing more damage and if you had just pounced or snared alone.  When playing as the boomer, note that your vomit attack has a longer range than you'd think, it's an arc attack, so if you want to hit distant targets aim higher, you'll be surprised how far it reaches.

A lone hunter, or even multiple hunters are often ineffective as he'll do a bit of damage then get knocked off.  However, a hunter combined with a horde is nasty.  Pounce on a target just as a horde reaches him and not only will you do damage, but the common infected will swarm around him also doing damage (that adds to your total), the Commons shield you from gunfire as well.  Just a few extra commons helping you on a pounce is enough to drop someone pretty quickly.

In places where there's a ledge nearby and survivors packed together.  If you land a pounce on someone it'll knock survivors away from the point of impact.  Pounce on someone and knock others off a ledge and now you have two people needing rescue, not just one.

Smokers should also consider the same.  Any place where there's a ledge or a drop, try to snare someone from across it so they're either dragged to a different level or hang onto the ledge for rescue.  The 4th level of No Mercy has plenty of places to do this.  Oh, but note that it takes a half second for the snare to attach properly, and some more due to lag, this was deliberate to keep smoker snares from being too powerful.  Try to snare from rooftops, exposing the minimal amount of yourself to the ground as possible.  Look for buildings with rails/rims on the roof, it restricts your view but makes it near impossible to hit you.

When you're the tank and you're faced with survivors out in the open, there will usually be objects that you can punt around to hit survivors.  These are usually cars, boxes, or a forklift.  A tank is slowed down by gunfire and being on fire, four survivors shooting at you at the same time with level 2 weapons will drop a tank quickly.  So, if you try to go for the melee attack you usually can't connect in the open, and if you try for the rock throw the wind up animation for it takes forever and most survivors will flee for cover.  But punting objects around works wonders as it'll usually take only 1 hit to down a survivor.

Good tips.  I've never been a Boomer, though.  Maybe they parcel those out a little less frequently?
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« Reply #65 on: December 01, 2008, 03:16:06 PM »

The Tanks are the rare ones. The others are just sorta randomly picked.
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« Reply #66 on: December 01, 2008, 03:28:26 PM »


I still think Campaign mode is the better of the modes...but ambushing and timing attacks as a group, or trying to get as far as possible as the survivors is fun for a change of pace.  It's a little annoying in the public games, as people tend to rush ahead just to 'Get Further than the other team' so slower or cautious players are left for dead almost automatically.

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« Reply #67 on: December 01, 2008, 04:12:23 PM »

There's three levels of rarity for the playable boss classes.  Hunters are common as dirt and you'll always see 2-3 on the infected team.  They're common because they're the easiest to deal with and have to get close to be effective.  Smokers and Boomers are one level above that, you'll only see 1 of each on the infected team at a given time since their abilities are quite powerful, with smokers being slightly more common.  Because of their strengths, the boomer and smoker both have various obvious sounds that they make when just standing around, the boomer with his gluttonous, pig-like noises, and the smoker with its coughing.  The boomer also has less health, a larger hitbox, and is knocked back farther from melee attacks.  The smoker, on the other hand, also has a swarm of green particles around him too.

Oh and boomer vomit, wow that thing can reach.  I already said you can arc it, but I was playing recently and experimenting with the arc and was hitting things a pretty good distance away.  Not only that, but you can arc the vomit up over the side of buildings and onto any survivors on the roof (near the edge) without exposing yourself.  At the end of No Mercy I just stood on the bottom and had a never ending stream of vomit attacks on the survivors on the roof.

Oh and a lot of times 1-2 people will end up being the same class, simply because the timing of their death and respawn means their respawn timer comes up right when the AI Director wants one.  So, it's a bit cheap, but if you want a different class, try dying a bit earlier.
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« Reply #68 on: December 01, 2008, 04:52:02 PM »

Quote from: Chaz on November 29, 2008, 08:40:15 PM

No, there is no storyline, but there isn't one in CoD multiplayer either.  The story and investment comes from working with your teammate to survive.  If you're playing on normal, then I can understand not seeing that, since surviving is so easy.

Not sure what difficulty we were playing on, but the difference between COD MP and Left4Dead is that in COD you're competing against other human players.  In Left4Dead you're merely playing against enemy AI.  Perhaps that is where it falls short for me.  You don't necessarily need a story in MP, but I like competition, and in COD you're competing directly against an opposing team.  Perhaps it's due to all of the sports I watch and play, but I like the competition aspect of versus MP and I just lost interest in fighting wave after wave of enemy AI.  There just didn't feel like much of a point.  At least in games like Halo 3 and Gears of War 2, yes you're still fighting against enemy AI, but there's a point to it all and a story unfolds. 

Left4Dead just isn't for me, and it seems rather simplistic and empty to be lauded as much as it has been. 
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« Reply #69 on: December 01, 2008, 05:01:00 PM »

Quote from: PeteRock on December 01, 2008, 04:52:02 PM

Quote from: Chaz on November 29, 2008, 08:40:15 PM

No, there is no storyline, but there isn't one in CoD multiplayer either.  The story and investment comes from working with your teammate to survive.  If you're playing on normal, then I can understand not seeing that, since surviving is so easy.

Not sure what difficulty we were playing on, but the difference between COD MP and Left4Dead is that in COD you're competing against other human players.  In Left4Dead you're merely playing against enemy AI.  Perhaps that is where it falls short for me.  You don't necessarily need a story in MP, but I like competition, and in COD you're competing directly against an opposing team.  Perhaps it's due to all of the sports I watch and play, but I like the competition aspect of versus MP and I just lost interest in fighting wave after wave of enemy AI.  There just didn't feel like much of a point.  At least in games like Halo 3 and Gears of War 2, yes you're still fighting against enemy AI, but there's a point to it all and a story unfolds. 

Left4Dead just isn't for me, and it seems rather simplistic and empty to be lauded as much as it has been. 

So I take it you missed the big VERSUS option on the screen where you selected Co-Op campaign?

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« Reply #70 on: December 01, 2008, 05:02:18 PM »

Or the posts I've made about all the strategy in the Versus mode?
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« Reply #71 on: December 01, 2008, 05:35:09 PM »

Quote from: PeteRock on December 01, 2008, 04:52:02 PM

Quote from: Chaz on November 29, 2008, 08:40:15 PM

No, there is no storyline, but there isn't one in CoD multiplayer either.  The story and investment comes from working with your teammate to survive.  If you're playing on normal, then I can understand not seeing that, since surviving is so easy.

Not sure what difficulty we were playing on, but the difference between COD MP and Left4Dead is that in COD you're competing against other human players.  In Left4Dead you're merely playing against enemy AI.  Perhaps that is where it falls short for me.  You don't necessarily need a story in MP, but I like competition, and in COD you're competing directly against an opposing team.  Perhaps it's due to all of the sports I watch and play, but I like the competition aspect of versus MP and I just lost interest in fighting wave after wave of enemy AI.  There just didn't feel like much of a point.  At least in games like Halo 3 and Gears of War 2, yes you're still fighting against enemy AI, but there's a point to it all and a story unfolds. 

Left4Dead just isn't for me, and it seems rather simplistic and empty to be lauded as much as it has been. 

It's simplistic in the way that Halo was simplistic.  It gets to the root of what works and pulls it together extremely well.

The bigger issue for you, Pete, seems to be in the gameplay style.  If you're coming right off of COD and Halo and even GoW2, then you're going to be thinking in terms of run and gun, but that can get you in situations like the buddy Sensuous Lettuce and I were playing with.  This game is all about the teamwork, even in the Versus modes.  You've played it a couple of times, but didn't give it a chance to wow you on its own merits versus what you were expecting.  I think your defenses might be up about it now (since you're still dismissing it - instead of seeing that it's getting praise everywhere and wondering if you've missed something, you give the impression that millions of Elvis fans can, in fact, be wrong), so I don't know that you could be convinced, but there is a reason it's being lauded.
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« Reply #72 on: December 01, 2008, 05:54:12 PM »

Some of us don't like the game.  This is an impressions thread.  We've read your pamphlet and it has not swayed us.  Calling us dismissive of it is being dismissive of our opinions.  Both Pete and I played the game and do not care for it. 

It is being lauded everywhere because a lot of people like it.  Everyone does not.  It can be lauded as a great game.  It doesn't mean everyone likes it.  Not everyone is an Elvis fanboy either. 
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« Reply #73 on: December 01, 2008, 05:57:31 PM »

The game is fun but I doubt it will have the legs of CoD5 or Gears 2 Horde mode.  4 short campaigns is not enough content for a $60 game IMHO. Also it appears that only 2 of the campaigns support versus play.
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« Reply #74 on: December 01, 2008, 05:57:52 PM »

Quote from: Isgrimnur on December 01, 2008, 05:54:12 PM

Some of us don't like the game.  This is an impressions thread.  We've read your pamphlet and it has not swayed us.  Calling us dismissive of it is being dismissive of our opinions.  Both Pete and I played the game and do not care for it. 

It is being lauded everywhere because a lot of people like it.  Everyone does not.  It can be lauded as a great game.  It doesn't mean everyone likes it.  Not everyone is an Elvis fanboy either. 

Yeah that wasn't really what I meant by my post.  I was just mocking Pete for the crux of his argument against the game as being a game mode he seems to have missed slywink.  You guys are free not to like the game all you want.

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« Reply #75 on: December 01, 2008, 05:58:32 PM »

Quote from: denoginizer on December 01, 2008, 05:57:31 PM

The game is fun but I doubt it will have the legs of CoD5 or Gears 2 Horde mode.  4 short campaigns is not enough content for a $60 game IMHO. Also it appears that only 2 of the campaigns support versus play.

I would have agreed Day 1, but I apparently have logged 16 hours into this (on PC) over the weekend, so apparently I like it quite a bit and don't find it all that repetitive.  Odd.

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« Reply #76 on: December 01, 2008, 06:12:29 PM »

Quote from: Bullwinkle on December 01, 2008, 05:35:09 PM

Quote from: PeteRock on December 01, 2008, 04:52:02 PM

Quote from: Chaz on November 29, 2008, 08:40:15 PM

No, there is no storyline, but there isn't one in CoD multiplayer either.  The story and investment comes from working with your teammate to survive.  If you're playing on normal, then I can understand not seeing that, since surviving is so easy.

Not sure what difficulty we were playing on, but the difference between COD MP and Left4Dead is that in COD you're competing against other human players.  In Left4Dead you're merely playing against enemy AI.  Perhaps that is where it falls short for me.  You don't necessarily need a story in MP, but I like competition, and in COD you're competing directly against an opposing team.  Perhaps it's due to all of the sports I watch and play, but I like the competition aspect of versus MP and I just lost interest in fighting wave after wave of enemy AI.  There just didn't feel like much of a point.  At least in games like Halo 3 and Gears of War 2, yes you're still fighting against enemy AI, but there's a point to it all and a story unfolds. 

Left4Dead just isn't for me, and it seems rather simplistic and empty to be lauded as much as it has been. 

It's simplistic in the way that Halo was simplistic.  It gets to the root of what works and pulls it together extremely well.

The bigger issue for you, Pete, seems to be in the gameplay style.  If you're coming right off of COD and Halo and even GoW2, then you're going to be thinking in terms of run and gun, but that can get you in situations like the buddy Sensuous Lettuce and I were playing with.  This game is all about the teamwork, even in the Versus modes.  You've played it a couple of times, but didn't give it a chance to wow you on its own merits versus what you were expecting.  I think your defenses might be up about it now (since you're still dismissing it - instead of seeing that it's getting praise everywhere and wondering if you've missed something, you give the impression that millions of Elvis fans can, in fact, be wrong), so I don't know that you could be convinced, but there is a reason it's being lauded.

But because a game is liked by some, or even many, does not suggest that it should be liked by all.  It isn't the style of gameplay, as I don't run-and-gun in games like COD, but the very gameplay itself.  I attempted to play through the demo a number of times, constantly wondering what it was that I was missing, and on Thanksgiving I had an opportunity to play alongside a friend, and still didn't find the game to be any more appealing.  While teamwork is at the heart of the game's focus, and while playing alongside friends can be fun, there was simply something missing from the game to draw me in.  

It's not any one thing that turned me off or underwhelmed me.  Everything simply came together as a mediocre and oversimplified product.  For me.  While it may not be a bad game, I'm happy to finally be able to cross one off of my must-buy list.

You can overanalyze why I don't like it all you want.  But I want more from a game, and this one just unfortunately didn't live up to my own expectations, whether you think I wasn't playing it "right" or not.  I gave it a number of chances, and wanted to like it.  And even despite that I kept coming away underwhelmed, wondering what the fuss is about.  That's fine, as I don't feel I need to be defensive, and I don't think I'm missing out on anything as most MP games have a short lifespan (look at Gears 2 MP - it barely maintained popularity for a week).  I'm simply not impressed, and having played it a number of times, I'm in this case the rare voice of dissent.  
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« Reply #77 on: December 01, 2008, 06:39:40 PM »

Quote from: Isgrimnur on December 01, 2008, 05:54:12 PM

Some of us don't like the game.  This is an impressions thread.  We've read your pamphlet and it has not swayed us.  Calling us dismissive of it is being dismissive of our opinions.  Both Pete and I played the game and do not care for it. 

It is being lauded everywhere because a lot of people like it.  Everyone does not.  It can be lauded as a great game.  It doesn't mean everyone likes it.  Not everyone is an Elvis fanboy either. 

Well when Pete says this:

Quote
Left4Dead just isn't for me, and it seems rather simplistic and empty to be lauded as much as it has been.

It seems perfectly fair for people to respond why they don't find it "simplistic and empty".  And of course people should also rightly point out that Pete totally missed that the game had adversial style multiplay as well. 
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« Reply #78 on: December 01, 2008, 06:47:23 PM »

Quote from: PeteRock on December 01, 2008, 06:12:29 PM

Quote from: Bullwinkle on December 01, 2008, 05:35:09 PM

Quote from: PeteRock on December 01, 2008, 04:52:02 PM

Quote from: Chaz on November 29, 2008, 08:40:15 PM

No, there is no storyline, but there isn't one in CoD multiplayer either.  The story and investment comes from working with your teammate to survive.  If you're playing on normal, then I can understand not seeing that, since surviving is so easy.

Not sure what difficulty we were playing on, but the difference between COD MP and Left4Dead is that in COD you're competing against other human players.  In Left4Dead you're merely playing against enemy AI.  Perhaps that is where it falls short for me.  You don't necessarily need a story in MP, but I like competition, and in COD you're competing directly against an opposing team.  Perhaps it's due to all of the sports I watch and play, but I like the competition aspect of versus MP and I just lost interest in fighting wave after wave of enemy AI.  There just didn't feel like much of a point.  At least in games like Halo 3 and Gears of War 2, yes you're still fighting against enemy AI, but there's a point to it all and a story unfolds. 

Left4Dead just isn't for me, and it seems rather simplistic and empty to be lauded as much as it has been. 

It's simplistic in the way that Halo was simplistic.  It gets to the root of what works and pulls it together extremely well.

The bigger issue for you, Pete, seems to be in the gameplay style.  If you're coming right off of COD and Halo and even GoW2, then you're going to be thinking in terms of run and gun, but that can get you in situations like the buddy Sensuous Lettuce and I were playing with.  This game is all about the teamwork, even in the Versus modes.  You've played it a couple of times, but didn't give it a chance to wow you on its own merits versus what you were expecting.  I think your defenses might be up about it now (since you're still dismissing it - instead of seeing that it's getting praise everywhere and wondering if you've missed something, you give the impression that millions of Elvis fans can, in fact, be wrong), so I don't know that you could be convinced, but there is a reason it's being lauded.

But because a game is liked by some, or even many, does not suggest that it should be liked by all.  It isn't the style of gameplay, as I don't run-and-gun in games like COD, but the very gameplay itself.  I attempted to play through the demo a number of times, constantly wondering what it was that I was missing, and on Thanksgiving I had an opportunity to play alongside a friend, and still didn't find the game to be any more appealing.  While teamwork is at the heart of the game's focus, and while playing alongside friends can be fun, there was simply something missing from the game to draw me in.  

It's not any one thing that turned me off or underwhelmed me.  Everything simply came together as a mediocre and oversimplified product.  For me.  While it may not be a bad game, I'm happy to finally be able to cross one off of my must-buy list.

You can overanalyze why I don't like it all you want.  But I want more from a game, and this one just unfortunately didn't live up to my own expectations, whether you think I wasn't playing it "right" or not.  I gave it a number of chances, and wanted to like it.  And even despite that I kept coming away underwhelmed, wondering what the fuss is about.  That's fine, as I don't feel I need to be defensive, and I don't think I'm missing out on anything as most MP games have a short lifespan (look at Gears 2 MP - it barely maintained popularity for a week).  I'm simply not impressed, and having played it a number of times, I'm in this case the rare voice of dissent.  

That's fine, and I didn't mean to imply that you would like it if you gave it a chance.  I understand not liking it, and it may be inherent in the gameplay style, was my point. 

Quote from: Isgrimnur on December 01, 2008, 05:54:12 PM

Some of us don't like the game.  This is an impressions thread.  We've read your pamphlet and it has not swayed us.  Calling us dismissive of it is being dismissive of our opinions.  Both Pete and I played the game and do not care for it. 

It is being lauded everywhere because a lot of people like it.  Everyone does not.  It can be lauded as a great game.  It doesn't mean everyone likes it.  Not everyone is an Elvis fanboy either. 

I'm the first to agree that negative impressions should be voiced in threads (see my comments on the various Little Big Planet threads -and that's a game I like, to a degree).  What I don't agree with is a dismissive tone that does seem to miss some key elements of the game, such as the one KG mentioned from Pete and your comment:
Quote
I got CoD:W@W.  I'm covered on MP fun.
  That's like saying I eat Apple Pie, so I'm covered in the fruit department.  Okay, maybe not quite that.  And you're allowed to say that, but it implies that you've dismissed the game, because COD and L4D are very different experiences.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2008, 06:57:00 PM by Bullwinkle » Logged

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« Reply #79 on: December 01, 2008, 06:50:53 PM »

My sticking point is your repeated use of the word "dismissive."

To me, dismissive is looking at the screenshots/movies/ads and calling it crap.  Both of us played the game and made decisions based on our personal experiences.  We gave the game more of a chance than many others did. 

What may be key elements to you may not be something that is key to us.
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