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Author Topic: Latest PS3 Update EULA Taking Away Users Rights?  (Read 809 times)
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CeeKay
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« on: September 16, 2011, 11:47:08 PM »

is this even legal?  removing your right to take part in a class action suit against Sony?

[edit]  the irony will be if they get slapped with a class action lawsuit over this.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2011, 11:50:48 PM by CeeKay » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2011, 02:40:23 AM »

It's as silly as shrink wrap EULAs. Though I'm pretty sure those did withstand a lawsuit.
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« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2011, 03:40:30 AM »

You surrendering your rights is not the same as Sony taking them away.  You may not like the choice, but you have one.  You either use PSN, or you retain your rights to sue.  If no one else did this, it would be a pretty scummy move.  However, most banks do this with your credit cards.  Some states allow certain types of insurance companies to impose binding arbitration in their contracts.

I've officially been a party to many class action suits.  I can't think of any award from those that was worth anything to me.  It's usually a way to publicly embarrass companies into giving some lawyers a lot of money.

I'd rather Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo spend their money on making better games and hardware than defending lawsuits.  I'm sure I'm in the minority.
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« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2011, 04:49:02 AM »

That's really not much of a choice. Not only are they holding hostage a user that has purchased content from PSN or wishes to play online but also the developers that have their games up for download. I also don't like the precedent this might set. Yes there are probably other ways the company can be punished if found to have done something against the law. But those usually end up not reimbursing the customer but rather the state.
I'm speaking from no knowledge of this but it seems like the best way a customer can bring a company to court is through a class action along with other like minded people, otherwise the company will just draw it out knowing that an individual cannot afford a lengthy battle.

Legally I suspect that since they provide a way for a customer to opt out of surrendering their rights after accepting the download it will be fine. A bit grey but fine.

As far as spending their money on things other than lawsuits, I'm pretty sure that's what their lawyers are paid to handle already.
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« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2011, 11:45:41 PM »

Perhaps I mis-read the agreement, but there is a way to opt out of the binding arbitration and class action waiver under section 15.  What is the downside to opting out?
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« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2011, 03:33:17 PM »

Quote from: sgoldj on September 17, 2011, 11:45:41 PM

Perhaps I mis-read the agreement, but there is a way to opt out of the binding arbitration and class action waiver under section 15.  What is the downside to opting out?

The downside is that you can't update your PS3 anymore, which means you can't play newer games or access the PS3 online store.
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« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2011, 04:03:50 PM »

Quote from: Destructor on September 18, 2011, 03:33:17 PM

Quote from: sgoldj on September 17, 2011, 11:45:41 PM

Perhaps I mis-read the agreement, but there is a way to opt out of the binding arbitration and class action waiver under section 15.  What is the downside to opting out?

The downside is that you can't update your PS3 anymore, which means you can't play newer games or access the PS3 online store.

sgoldj isn't talking about not updating as a way to opt out. You can send a letter to the address they list and be removed from waiving your rights. A couple comments from ArsTechnica if you do plan on doing this. Make sure you send it by something like USPS signature confirmation so they cannot claim to have never gotten the letter. Also it's not clear if you will have to send a letter each time a new update comes around.
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CeeKay
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« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2011, 04:23:54 PM »

just got this email today:

Quote
On September 15, 2011, Sony Network Entertainment America Inc. ("SNEA") will transfer its online services operations, including your wallet and the funds in it, to Sony Network Entertainment International LLC ("SNEI"). The first time you sign in to your PlayStationŽNetwork account on or after September 15, 2011, you will be asked to enter into a new Terms of Service and User Agreement ("TOS") and Privacy Policy with SNEI if you wish to continue using your PlayStationŽNetwork account. Please review all changes to the TOS and Privacy Policy carefully before indicating your agreement. In particular, please review Section 15 of the TOS, which now includes a class action waiver and requires that most disputes be resolved through arbitration.
 
You may click here to review the changes to the TOS and you may click here to review the changes to the Privacy Policy. If you do not agree with the new TOS or Privacy Policy, or if you do not wish to enter into an agreement with SNEI, you may decline the TOS and Privacy Policy and we will close your account and return your funds.

If you have any questions or wish to terminate your account, please contact Customer Service by clicking here.

Additionally, we would like to introduce you to the new "Sony Entertainment Network." Here you can play your favorite music, movies, games and more on your PlayStation systems and across a variety of connected devices (Sony and non-Sony.)

With Sony Entertainment Network we are establishing a comprehensive and global network platform which offers access to entertainment, commerce, and community, all from one convenient account.

For more information please visit www.SonyEntertainmentNetwork.com where you will learn more about our music service, Music Unlimited, and our video offerings on Video Unlimited.

The services you have come to know on your PlayStation systems will remain the same in terms of functionality, pricing and content – with some enhancements. We continue to grow both Music Unlimited and Video Unlimited services, as well as the entire Sony Entertainment Network platform by adding more content and advancing the functionality to bring you the best of digital entertainment across the globe.

Thank you very much for being a customer!
PlayStationŽNetwork

running a bit late in notifying people about section 15 Sony?
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« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2011, 04:47:45 PM »

Quote from: CeeKay on September 18, 2011, 04:23:54 PM

just got this email today:

Quote
On September 15, 2011, Sony Network Entertainment America Inc. ("SNEA") will transfer its online services operations, including your wallet and the funds in it, to Sony Network Entertainment International LLC ("SNEI"). The first time you sign in to your PlayStationŽNetwork account on or after September 15, 2011, you will be asked to enter into a new Terms of Service and User Agreement ("TOS") and Privacy Policy with SNEI if you wish to continue using your PlayStationŽNetwork account. Please review all changes to the TOS and Privacy Policy carefully before indicating your agreement. In particular, please review Section 15 of the TOS, which now includes a class action waiver and requires that most disputes be resolved through arbitration.
 
You may click here to review the changes to the TOS and you may click here to review the changes to the Privacy Policy. If you do not agree with the new TOS or Privacy Policy, or if you do not wish to enter into an agreement with SNEI, you may decline the TOS and Privacy Policy and we will close your account and return your funds.

If you have any questions or wish to terminate your account, please contact Customer Service by clicking here.

Additionally, we would like to introduce you to the new "Sony Entertainment Network." Here you can play your favorite music, movies, games and more on your PlayStation systems and across a variety of connected devices (Sony and non-Sony.)

With Sony Entertainment Network we are establishing a comprehensive and global network platform which offers access to entertainment, commerce, and community, all from one convenient account.

For more information please visit www.SonyEntertainmentNetwork.com where you will learn more about our music service, Music Unlimited, and our video offerings on Video Unlimited.

The services you have come to know on your PlayStation systems will remain the same in terms of functionality, pricing and content – with some enhancements. We continue to grow both Music Unlimited and Video Unlimited services, as well as the entire Sony Entertainment Network platform by adding more content and advancing the functionality to bring you the best of digital entertainment across the globe.

Thank you very much for being a customer!
PlayStationŽNetwork

running a bit late in notifying people about section 15 Sony?

not sure they are required to notify us/you about anything, so hard to be late.
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CeeKay
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« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2011, 04:55:18 PM »

saying 'oh yeah, make sure to check out Section 15' after the change has been out since the 15th = running late, no matter if they were required to notfiy us or not.  It also makes one wonder if we would have gotten any notice at all if the change hadn't made the news.
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« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2011, 06:12:22 PM »

These will not withstand a determined lawsuit, even if it was meant to stop them.

But, still a good idea to protect yourself as a consumer. A pretty stupid move overall and really no excuse for it.
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« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2011, 06:15:28 PM »

Quote from: Harkonis on September 18, 2011, 04:47:45 PM

Quote from: CeeKay on September 18, 2011, 04:23:54 PM

just got this email today:

Quote
On September 15, 2011, Sony Network Entertainment America Inc. ("SNEA") will transfer its online services operations, including your wallet and the funds in it, to Sony Network Entertainment International LLC ("SNEI"). The first time you sign in to your PlayStationŽNetwork account on or after September 15, 2011, you will be asked to enter into a new Terms of Service and User Agreement ("TOS") and Privacy Policy with SNEI if you wish to continue using your PlayStationŽNetwork account. Please review all changes to the TOS and Privacy Policy carefully before indicating your agreement. In particular, please review Section 15 of the TOS, which now includes a class action waiver and requires that most disputes be resolved through arbitration.
 
You may click here to review the changes to the TOS and you may click here to review the changes to the Privacy Policy. If you do not agree with the new TOS or Privacy Policy, or if you do not wish to enter into an agreement with SNEI, you may decline the TOS and Privacy Policy and we will close your account and return your funds.

If you have any questions or wish to terminate your account, please contact Customer Service by clicking here.

Additionally, we would like to introduce you to the new "Sony Entertainment Network." Here you can play your favorite music, movies, games and more on your PlayStation systems and across a variety of connected devices (Sony and non-Sony.)

With Sony Entertainment Network we are establishing a comprehensive and global network platform which offers access to entertainment, commerce, and community, all from one convenient account.

For more information please visit www.SonyEntertainmentNetwork.com where you will learn more about our music service, Music Unlimited, and our video offerings on Video Unlimited.

The services you have come to know on your PlayStation systems will remain the same in terms of functionality, pricing and content – with some enhancements. We continue to grow both Music Unlimited and Video Unlimited services, as well as the entire Sony Entertainment Network platform by adding more content and advancing the functionality to bring you the best of digital entertainment across the globe.

Thank you very much for being a customer!
PlayStationŽNetwork

running a bit late in notifying people about section 15 Sony?

not sure they are required to notify us/you about anything, so hard to be late.

Any changes in an agreement needs to be pointed out, else it amounts to nothing.

You cannot state that I agree to your terms and that is why I have licenses to my software, and then change the agreement to require that I pay 100,000 a month for maintenance costs or accept liability for something that I previously was not required to do. There are laws that require the agreements are legal, and, if under scrutiny can be shown to be illegal then that section, or potentially the entire agreement can be rendered illegal and therefore unenforceable by law.
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« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2011, 06:19:27 PM »

Purge is right - you cannot change the terms of the agreement without notifying and getting the acceptance without both parties present. That is why the ads in Deus ex arent exactly legal either.
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« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2011, 08:17:26 PM »

Quote from: Razgon on September 18, 2011, 06:19:27 PM

Purge is right

This doesn't happen often enough. slywink
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« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2011, 09:38:00 PM »

I know they have to tell you it's a new agreement, and they did that.  I didn't think they have to tell you each and every thing that is new.  A lot of companies do this, but I swear I've seen plenty that don't.
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« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2011, 12:35:46 AM »

sure enough, class action suit away!

http://www.gamespot.com/news/sony-sued-over-terms-of-service-update-6347852
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« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2011, 06:44:49 AM »

I don't know too much about gaming services and gaming software, but in the North American software biz, for some time now -as in decades- consumers have had little legal recourse against software manufacturers due to EULA's. That's the US and Canada though, and its different in other countries.
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« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2011, 08:26:31 AM »

EULA's have no sway in the courts of most of europe
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« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2011, 01:50:02 PM »

Didn't Microsoft just do the same thing?
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« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2011, 02:08:59 PM »

Can I refuse to sign and still play skyrim?   paranoid
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« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2011, 05:15:10 PM »

Quote from: Razgon on December 20, 2011, 08:26:31 AM

EULA's have no sway in the courts of most of europe
Yup, during the late 90's I got seconded out for a few months to the UK branch of a NA software company I worked for. I remember the consultants and support staff worrying about being sued for some things that were really only remotely related to the software.  icon_confused  I can see where not being bound by an EULA can be a real plus for the consumer, but from the manufacturer perspective I much prefer the NA model - just way too many foolish things a customer can do with computer technology.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2011, 05:17:42 PM by kronovan » Logged
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