[PC] Jagged Alliance: Back in Action

[CeeKay]

coming soon, it's JA2 spruced up with better graphics. 

[CeeKay]

here's the press release and some screenshots.

[coopasonic]

Looks great. I'm in.

[Blackjack]

Looks great. I'm in.

You're too easy. 

Who's developing it? Is anyone who ever worked on the old games people get misty about even working on it anymore? Why are the little squadmate tabs on the left side of the screen so tiny? Am I gonna need a magnifying glass to play? 

[Sarkus]

Who's developing it? Is anyone who ever worked on the old games people get misty about even working on it anymore? Why are the little squadmate tabs on the left side of the screen so tiny? Am I gonna need a magnifying glass to play? 

It's being done by the German company that now owns the rights; they also recently announced an online flash mmo game using the license.  I don't think any of the old devs are involved - one who posts on QT3 seemed rather angry about the flash game and somewhat annoyed about the reboot, even though Strategy First announced the same idea several years back when they first got the license.

[CeeKay]

a bit about the combat system:

Code:

http://www.jaggedalliance.com/index.php?id=35&L=1&tx_mmforum_pi1[action]=list_post&tx_mmforum_pi1[tid]=101&tx_mmforum_pi1[page]=11&cHash=845b5faf6b342b48962df7febe0916f8

[MonkeyFinger]

I think your link needs to be reloaded, CK.  

[CeeKay]

I think your link needs to be reloaded, CK.  

just cut and paste it, the brackets that appear in it are screwing with it.

[Turtle]

In essence, they're going pauseable real-time but with a fancy name. Pretty much the same way that X-Com Alliance went, which I loved.

So long as they keep the pacing at a reasonable and controllable speed, this should be fun.

[CeeKay]

In essence, they're going pauseable real-time but with a fancy name. Pretty much the same way that X-Com Alliance went, which I loved.

are you sure you got the right game there?  I though Alliance was a FPS that got canned.

[Turtle]

Whoops, I meant Apocalypse.

Either way, this change has me more interested in playing than before. Couldn't really get into Jagged Alliance before, despite enjoying the original X-Com style games quite a bit.

[CeeKay]

they changed the title, it's no longer Reloaded but Back in Action.

[CeeKay]

looks like they're going to really be showing this off at Gamescom this year.

[Sarkus]

They showed it at E3 and there are several videos out there.

[CeeKay]

new trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VXzfRLFVzA&feature=player_embedded

[CeeKay]

2-10-2012

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JF-kROIKBgE&feature=player_embedded

[Sarkus]

I think its interesting that the pre-order for this on Steam has been in the top 10 sellers for the last day or two since it went on sale.  There definately seems to be some interest in it. 

[Arkon]

I went ahead and bit on the 15% off preorder.  Not that I know when I will have time to play with still gobs to do in Skyrim, and an active sub to SWTOR.

[Purge]

I think its interesting that the pre-order for this on Steam has been in the top 10 sellers for the last day or two since it went on sale.  There definately seems to be some interest in it. 

People haven't come down from the holiday high. Being one of the only games on sale gives it a distinct advantage.

[Scoop20906]

I am absolutely excited and terrified. Since this is a remake how much of it is "EXACTLY" like the original? While I'm excited to play an updated version of one of my all time favorites will it be so similar that I get bored because its "been there done that".

Also, all off the combat video is of the mercs only shooting the enemy. I see no example of how the enemy AI works or reacts. Without good enemy AI this may suck greatly.

I need a review or preview before I can buy this but I REALLY want to get it.

[CeeKay]

here's some gameplay: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaQwyB2r80g&feature=player_embedded

[Scoop20906]

Thanks Ceekay. Checking it out now.

[Sarkus]

There are definately some changes apparent in that gameplay video.  The devs have already confirmed that FOV/FOW has been taken out, though they do say they may add it back in later because there has been quite a storm over the issue.  The comments to that YouTube video also say there is less destructability then the original, noting that there are pre-determined locations where you can blow holes in walls rather then letting you do it wherever, for example.  And finally it isn't clear how the health system works. For example, in the video he loses a merc and then seems to at least mostly revive him, only to lose him again shortly thereafter.  There is no mention of the long-term healing required for injured mercs in the original game. 

So I'm pretty dubious on this at the moment.  Definately a "wait and see" for me despite loving the original and still playing it regularly.

[Scoop20906]

I purchased it. I have a good feeling about this after watching the video.

[CeeKay]

demo: http://www.gamershell.com/news_132308.html

[jztemple2]

demo: http://www.gamershell.com/news_132308.html

Thanks for the heads up. The tutorial was very good, I like the interface. I've tried the demo mission a couple of times and got my ass handed to me. That's not a bad thing, if once I get smarter I do better.

[namatoki]

I haven't picked up the demo yet due to my mouse going back to Razer for repair, but I was concerned about something I read about BIA.  So apparently the player can now see all the enemies on the map before engaging them.  Did you guys notice that and did it detract from the game play at all?  I think being able to see all the enemies without a fog of war seems unrealistic.  Also, is the enemy AI any good?

[jztemple2]

Played through the demo mission, taking my time and moving carefully. I did save and reload a lot . In the end I cleared the map of the many enemies while only losing two of my four guys. I probably could have kept all four if I had done more saving and reloading. While the turn based gameplay has been replaced by interrupt-able continuous action, you can set on a bunch of options to pause the gameplay if anyone sneezes or whatnot. Pausing in this way switches you to Command Mode. You can also switch from continuous mode to command mode with a tap of the space bar. Issues orders to your heart's content while paused, then switch back to continuous play. Not really a problem.

Regarding the lack of a fog of war... well, it seems they balanced this by adding a bunch of bad guys to the map  . I supposed you could look at this as just another approach to the game. Instead of slinking about the whole map, not knowing when you might come across an enemy (or he might shoot you if you get noticed first), instead you can plan how you will maneuver and assault. On the other hand, since there's no need to worry about detecting the location of the enemy, there's no need to scout, or use good tactics for movement... well, it's not going to sit well with experienced JA players. The way it's implemented in the demo is fine, it's just not the original concept.

Regarding the enemy AI, it's not anything to write home about. They all didn't mindlessly rush at you (but some did). Others wait in ambush locations... well, they would be ambush locations, if I didn't have a god's eye view of everything and know where they are. Also, if you wait a while with your guys motionless, eventually most of the time the enemies would come looking for you and then you can pick them off.

So for me, Jagged Alliance isn't Back In Action, this is some poor cousin trying to pretend it's a sequel to one of the most iconic games of my youth. Not that it's a bad game, it's just not the new Jagged Alliance we were hoping for. And the demo didn't touch at all on the operational level touches, like recruiting, money, resources, etc, so I'm not sure about those either.

[Sarkus]

Its important to note that due to the cry from fans the devs have made a bunch of changes and promises.  So fog of war is supposed to come later in a patch, and they've already changed the health system from what was orginally planned to something more like the original.

As for the current lack of FOW, I think jztemple2 covers the obvious negatives.   Its important to note that the game still requires a lot of tactics.  You can't just wander up to enemies and come away - you'll get killed.  So even though you know where enemies are, you still have to figure out how to get close to them, to get good line of fire, and so on.  Its not as simple as just throwing a lot of enemies at you just to increase the difficulty. 

[Blackadar]

Its important to note that due to the cry from fans the devs have made a bunch of changes and promises.  So fog of war is supposed to come later in a patch, and they've already changed the health system from what was orginally planned to something more like the original.

As for the current lack of FOW, I think jztemple2 covers the obvious negatives.   Its important to note that the game still requires a lot of tactics.  You can't just wander up to enemies and come away - you'll get killed.  So even though you know where enemies are, you still have to figure out how to get close to them, to get good line of fire, and so on.  Its not as simple as just throwing a lot of enemies at you just to increase the difficulty. 

If the game was already hard enough that jztemple2 had to reload a lot during the demo mission, how are they going to balance it at this late date when the FOW makes things harder?  11th hour changes like that worry me because it's likely to be just a slapped-on feature rather than a balanced one.

[jztemple2]

Its important to note that due to the cry from fans the devs have made a bunch of changes and promises.  So fog of war is supposed to come later in a patch, and they've already changed the health system from what was orginally planned to something more like the original.

As for the current lack of FOW, I think jztemple2 covers the obvious negatives.   Its important to note that the game still requires a lot of tactics.  You can't just wander up to enemies and come away - you'll get killed.  So even though you know where enemies are, you still have to figure out how to get close to them, to get good line of fire, and so on.  Its not as simple as just throwing a lot of enemies at you just to increase the difficulty. 

If the game was already hard enough that jztemple2 had to reload a lot during the demo mission, how are they going to balance it at this late date when the FOW makes things harder?  11th hour changes like that worry me because it's likely to be just a slapped-on feature rather than a balanced one.

I'll second that comment. If the squads are limited to only four guys it will be tough going on a map like that with Fog of War active. I'd be wanting to use at least two squads on every map; hopefully the game structure would allow me to do that without it being too much of a pain.

I do agree with Sarkus that even without FOW the game does require you to use good tactics and would be enjoyable for that. I did like playing the demo for that aspect of the gameplay. It is a different experience than having FOW however.

If FOW is going to be added by a patch I think I'd rather wait for that and play it from the start with FOW on. Part of the fun of JA is uncovering what's on each map. I'm really surprised that the developers discounted that as part of the appeal of the game and went without FOW in their concept.

[Sarkus]

Its important to note that due to the cry from fans the devs have made a bunch of changes and promises.  So fog of war is supposed to come later in a patch, and they've already changed the health system from what was orginally planned to something more like the original.

As for the current lack of FOW, I think jztemple2 covers the obvious negatives.   Its important to note that the game still requires a lot of tactics.  You can't just wander up to enemies and come away - you'll get killed.  So even though you know where enemies are, you still have to figure out how to get close to them, to get good line of fire, and so on.  Its not as simple as just throwing a lot of enemies at you just to increase the difficulty. 

If the game was already hard enough that jztemple2 had to reload a lot during the demo mission, how are they going to balance it at this late date when the FOW makes things harder?  11th hour changes like that worry me because it's likely to be just a slapped-on feature rather than a balanced one.

It's not really a "slapped-on" feature, though.  From what I understand they pulled FOW relatively late because their playtesters said the game was too hard.  So my guess is that they decided to pull it to make balance easier and difficulty lower and make their ship date.  Hopefully the return of FOW will also mean a rebalance to reflect it.  And don't forget that the new health system is a relatively late add, something that arguably makes the game harder since originally you could fully heal up mercs in battle.  Now you can't and injured mercs lose abilities.

And I thought they said you could have six person squads?  That's still less then the original IIRC.  Either way they did say that you could easily use mutiple squads together.

[jztemple2]

And I thought they said you could have six person squads?  That's still less then the original IIRC.  Either way they did say that you could easily use mutiple squads together.

The tutorial had a four person squad and so did the demo mission, so I can only go by that. Having multiple squads would be good, as long as they don't put something in the gameplay structure that works against this, like maybe only one squad arrives on a map at a time and you could get sucked into a tactical battle before the second squad shows up. The AI might not be stellar, but it's smart enough to push multiple baddies at you at the same time.

[Blackadar]

Its important to note that due to the cry from fans the devs have made a bunch of changes and promises.  So fog of war is supposed to come later in a patch, and they've already changed the health system from what was orginally planned to something more like the original.

As for the current lack of FOW, I think jztemple2 covers the obvious negatives.   Its important to note that the game still requires a lot of tactics.  You can't just wander up to enemies and come away - you'll get killed.  So even though you know where enemies are, you still have to figure out how to get close to them, to get good line of fire, and so on.  Its not as simple as just throwing a lot of enemies at you just to increase the difficulty. 

If the game was already hard enough that jztemple2 had to reload a lot during the demo mission, how are they going to balance it at this late date when the FOW makes things harder?  11th hour changes like that worry me because it's likely to be just a slapped-on feature rather than a balanced one.

It's not really a "slapped-on" feature, though.  From what I understand they pulled FOW relatively late because their playtesters said the game was too hard.  So my guess is that they decided to pull it to make balance easier and difficulty lower and make their ship date.  Hopefully the return of FOW will also mean a rebalance to reflect it.  And don't forget that the new health system is a relatively late add, something that arguably makes the game harder since originally you could fully heal up mercs in battle.  Now you can't and injured mercs lose abilities.

This goes back to my point.  At this late date, how are they going to balance these features?  This game is due out in 7 days and I can't imagine that it's going to be balanced in any way, shape or form.  Sounds to me like consumers are better off waiting 6-9 months for a properly patched and balanced game...which is a shame because I'd pay full price if this title was solid out of the gate.  Oh well...Steam Summer Sale, here we come!

[Scoop20906]

Sounds to me like they should delay it.

[Sarkus]

You can play the demo and get a good idea of where it's at.  The demo mission is intentionally very hard, but not impossible, and has the recent changes in the health system in place.  So I'm not too worried about that. 

[Dante Rising]

Forgive me if I'm missing something, but I downloaded the game at 5AM, after a 12 hour work day. I played the tutorial, but got massacred in the demo. I can't figure out how to determine the enemy line of sight. I've noticed that if I hover over the enemy I get areas painted in red, but my team is always noticed while crawling outside of these areas.

Also, I managed to have one guy crawl around the side of a building and throw a grenade into it, which killed two guards. Next I had two mercs set up overlapping fields of fire at a door that the remaining enemies would exit to search for the grenade thrower. The result was both of my mercs were killed within four shots by one guard. My mercs were hitting for 10-12 damage, while this guard was hitting for 37-45.

What am I missing?

<edit 1> I didn't realize I had to command my units to keep hitting the target after every single attack. I assumed it was keep firing until neutralized.

[Soulchilde]

Demo is intentional difficult which makes no sense to me...

[namatoki]

<edit 1> I didn't realize I had to command my units to keep hitting the target after every single attack. I assumed it was keep firing until neutralized.

You can set up a "stance" where if there is an enemy in your merc's vision cone, they will keep firing until the enemy is down.  I believe it is the defensive stance.  You can see them on the right side of the screen.

[jztemple2]

For those who still care about this game, the new 1.13 patch is out, adding line of sight (fog of war) and a bunch of other things. This YouTube video walks you through the changes. It's about twelve minutes long and quite detailed. I might actually get this game now