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Author Topic: I don't understand the acceptance of the PSP exploits  (Read 2800 times)
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farley2k
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« on: June 22, 2005, 05:58:39 PM »

Between the posts here, Quarter to Three, and the coverage on Penny Arcade I get the very strong impression that people think this is acceptable and even good.

Yet on all those sites there are often fights/flames etc. about how piracy is wrong and hurts gamers.

Am I missing something - isn't the whole PSP exploit thing just a way to pirate games?  

So why is it ok to steal some types of games but not others?
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JayG
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« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2005, 06:13:16 PM »

Most of the games I play this way I already own. I'm totally anti piracy, and the PSP is way to play games that I had years ago and have no real way to play today, like Bubba and Stix,Ultima 7, Speedball 2, Doom and a lot of other ones. It's a look back at yesteryear.

Ironically enough, I believed that the DS would have the best homebrew, yet all thats available there is pirated games.

And I admit, I have tried games like Chrono Trigger, but if that was ever released on Game Boy, DS or PSP, I'd buy it. I already brought Final Fantasy 1 and 2 (and hated it), and most of the Snes games available on that platform. Now all I really want is ScummPSP, as I already own all the Lucusarts adventures, and I would love to play them on the handheld. Or Ultima 7(PC).

And I reckon most of the people interested in emulation played the games in their original form. Lets face it, most of these games would be old relics to the XBox generation.
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Doopri
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« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2005, 06:17:50 PM »

because people are hypocrits smile

"i own this game, so its okay... but no one in the world must own any of those OTHER games listed you bunch of stinking pirates - so youre banned if you mention them"  -  people feel when they're doing something, its the right way and okay, but when others do it its probably illegal.  hence, the sentiment that piracy is bad, but what im doing in some way isnt piracy.
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farley2k
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« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2005, 06:20:25 PM »

I am sure some people will do that but I am thinkng broader really.

By that I mean you never saw posts on major gaming sites about the newest mod chip for the Xbox.  It could be used equally for playing games people already owned.  Yet it never got a pass from the gaming community as acceptable.

So it isn't so much what individual gamers do but that pervasive attitude that this is alright that I don't understand.
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« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2005, 06:21:23 PM »

feel the love  :lol:
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farley2k
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« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2005, 06:22:20 PM »

Quote from: "PaulBot"
feel the love  :lol:


Yes, secretly I am just annoyed since I bought a DS.   :lol:
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Doopri
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« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2005, 06:25:26 PM »

people loved mod chips at first - the "pervasive attitude" didnt change until microsoft found a way to ban your ass - people will feel its okay to do this with the PSP until (if?) sony starts banning people - at which point youll be a cheating jerk if you download illegal material
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Doopri
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« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2005, 06:30:20 PM »

then damnit farley, get out there, get that psp and start downloading before someone drops the hammer!  until sony or makers of those programs decide that its wrong for people to do this with their intellectual property, free for all!

its like file sharing - no one had a problem with it until artists and courts got involved - now we have commercials bout stealin mp3s ?!?!?!
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« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2005, 07:03:41 PM »

Quote
now we have commercials bout stealin mp3s ?!?!?

No I don't....




I have TiVo.  :twisted:
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« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2005, 07:11:30 PM »

Does Nintendo make any money on NES cartidge sales anymore?  Sega on genesis game sales?  The game companies?

In the case of emu's for old, out of production games and systems, it's about as victimless a crime as you can get.

That does make GBA emu's no different from warez in my opinion, and this will include NES/SNES/etc when the Revolution comes out.
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« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2005, 07:39:59 PM »

Like Sony is really going to lose any money from this.. If anything you guys lost money putting down $250 on a handheld when you could have got an N-Gage for $99!

Hey farley is that Jon Stewart in your picture or do you just happen to look like him?
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Kevin Grey
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« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2005, 07:40:59 PM »

Quote from: "Sterling"
Does Nintendo make any money on NES cartidge sales anymore?  Sega on genesis game sales?  The game companies?



That's a pretty big foundation of the "downloadable games" concept for Revolution.  And even now they are making big bucks on their NES classics series for GBA not to mention all of the other GBA carts that are ports of NES or SNES games.  

So the answer is "yes."
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farley2k
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« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2005, 07:56:37 PM »

Quote from: "corruptrelic"


Hey farley is that Jon Stewart in your picture or do you just happen to look like him?



Just a picture I found, but I like him so much I felt it was ok to be assumed to look like that.


I remember when the other guy left the Daily Show (Craig Kilborn?)  I was so upset and thought this new guy wouldn't be as funny.  Now I can't even remember the first guys name!
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« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2005, 07:56:44 PM »

This thread is an interesting discussion.  Yes using emulators, roms actually, could be considered priacy.  However, the exploit is used for many homebrew applications as well.  Sure I play the emulators, who wouldnt?  Is is right to download a game you already own to play on your PSP while you are laying in bed or waiting around for something?  I dont think it is.  Of course, people arent going to stick to the games they own.  I think Nintendo realizes just how big the world of emulation is and that is why they are offering the downloads with the Revolution.  Thing is, if that costs more than $5 a game would I download anything?  Hell no.  Nintendo is going to realize that people arent going to pay a lot of money for something they can already get for free.  All that being said, I am against piracy of new games and I would never use an exploit to launch a retail game from the memory stick.  Which isnt possible yet, but is in the works.  For the time being, I dont see how playing Sonic 1 on my PSP is hurting anyone.  I have the original cartridge in a closet somewhere.  I paid for the rights to the software so I should be able to use the rom freely.  I think the exploit is great.  Can I say that everyone that uses it is going to be ethical and honest?  No way.  It will get "exploited" by piracy and in the end this will ruin it for the honest users when Sony puts mandatory firmware updates on new PSP games.
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« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2005, 08:12:12 PM »

Quote from: "GatorFavre"
Is is right to download a game you already own to play on your PSP while you are laying in bed or waiting around for something?  I dont think it is.  Of course, people arent going to stick to the games they own.

I look at it this way - the old (don't know if it's different now) copyright code stated that you could make a 'backup' of a tape, CD, etc, incase the original was destroyed AS LONG as you only played the backup or the original. Never both at the same time.

So, in short, I own all the titles I'm currently having fun with again on my PSP.

For reasons I still can't explain (but others have tried), there's just something special about playing all the old classics on a system it's not designed to run on. And all the memories I had about playing them, too.
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« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2005, 08:18:51 PM »

Quote from: "GatorFavre"
Is is right to download a game you already own to play on your PSP while you are laying in bed or waiting around for something?  I dont think it is.  Of course, people arent going to stick to the games they own.



Damn it, I meant to write "I think it is," not "I dont think it is."
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« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2005, 08:56:25 PM »

Quote from: "Kevin Grey"
Quote from: "Sterling"
Does Nintendo make any money on NES cartidge sales anymore?  Sega on genesis game sales?  The game companies?



That's a pretty big foundation of the "downloadable games" concept for Revolution.  And even now they are making big bucks on their NES classics series for GBA not to mention all of the other GBA carts that are ports of NES or SNES games.  

So the answer is "yes."


Uhm yeah, I already covered that.  What about genesis games, or the many NES/SNES games that aren't available as GBA classic series games, and aren't Nintendo-published, and therefore aren't known to be available via Revolution anyway?  I'm mainly thinking Chrono Trigger here.

Square Enix doesn't make money off Chrono Trigger carts anymore.  It isn't officially available anywhere for current systems, it isn't being produced new in any form I'm aware of, and it isn't currently on the list of games the Revolution is likely to offer.

So who loses if I theoretically download a Chrono Trigger ROM and play it on my PSP?
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Dimmona
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« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2005, 09:00:59 PM »

I'm not really into emulators, but the whole homebrew software on the PSP excites me because there is a heck of a lot of great apps that could be ported to the PSP.  Get me a decent Linux kernel working on the PSP and suddenly the door is open to programs like Firefox, Thunderbird, GAIM, Ethereal, etc.

Look at all of the really cool PocketPC apps that are out there - now imagine similar stuff running on the PSP.  I simply can't wait....
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farley2k
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« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2005, 09:17:38 PM »

Quote from: "Dimmona"
I'm not really into emulators, but the whole homebrew software on the PSP excites me because there is a heck of a lot of great apps that could be ported to the PSP.  Get me a decent Linux kernel working on the PSP and suddenly the door is open to programs like Firefox, Thunderbird, GAIM, Ethereal, etc.

Look at all of the really cool PocketPC apps that are out there - now imagine similar stuff running on the PSP.  I simply can't wait....



I certainly can.  

My Pocket PC has a stylus so I can write much easier...the PSP will have a terrible way of putting in text, and of moving a mouse.
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« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2005, 09:38:30 PM »

Emulators are all I care about. I love being to play all the old NES, SNES and Genesis games I still own on my PSP.

I am not interested in having UMD's on my memory card.
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« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2005, 10:12:03 PM »

"Square Enix doesn't make money off Chrono Trigger carts anymore. It isn't officially available anywhere for current systems"
You can still find Final Fantasy Chronicles (which includes Chrono Trigger) for the PSOne in many used game stores, and it can be played on the PS2.

"its like file sharing - no one had a problem with it until artists and courts got involved"
It was always illegal, regardless of whether anyone was doing anything to stop it.
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« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2005, 10:22:47 PM »

Quote from: "sterling"
Uhm yeah, I already covered that. What about genesis games, or the many NES/SNES games that aren't available as GBA classic series games, and aren't Nintendo-published, and therefore aren't known to be available via Revolution anyway? I'm mainly thinking Chrono Trigger here.


So the games have to be available *now* to qualify?  The use of old games as promotional tools is an an ongoing process.  Just two months ago the presence of Doom 1 & 2 on the Doom 3 Xbox edition was touted as a feature.  Last year saw Tecmo bundle the prevous Ninja Gaiden games onto their Ninja Gaiden Xbox disks.  One of the "features" of the upcoming Metal Gear Solid 3: Subsistance edition is the packaging of the original Metal Gear 1 & 2 games.  So was it okay to download MG1 prior to the E3 announcement?  

Chrono Trigger has been on SE's site recently as part of a poll of "What existing games do you want to come to the DS" so SE certainly hasn't lost site of its value as a potential upcoming commodity.  They may be holding CT back as a promotional tool should they ever decide to go forward with a third game in that series or maybe they'll just go ahead and port it after Final Fantasy 3 (which one the poll IIRC).  

And the Revolution might just blow the whole market more wide open than ever before- Nintendo certainly is going to welcome other publishers involvement in their download plan.  Publishers may still hold back some IPs they can use as strategic value elsewhere but I definitely think you'll see them offering up older games that don't tie into a current property or aren't of enough value on their own invest in a GBA cart.  

I personally could care less and have preferred emulated versions to the originals due to things like save states.  But I think its silly to couch a justification with "if its not available *now* then it clearly has been abandoned" while the market for 8-bit and 16-bit era games has had a nice resurgence in recent years, particularly for promotional purposes and shows no signs of stopping.  Just the excitement over the announcement over the Revoultion's scae of backwards compatability sends a clear message to publishers that there is money to be made here.

EDIT-  Good call on CT's availability on the PSX Eddie.  That also accounts for current availability of two other high in demand SNES titles:  Final Fantasy 4 & 6.  And they aren't just used- I bought new copies last year.  In fact at least one, if not two, of the Final Fantasy Collections was released after the PS2 debuted- ie "current generation."
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« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2005, 01:33:11 AM »

A big part of it is also the fascination of 'hacking', and making products do things they werent intended to do.

Take Overclocking, for example.  With the expense (and time) of putting in a water cooling system, toying with the air flow, extra fans, getting expensive overclockable memory, etc, they would have been better off just buying the higher end processor.
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« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2005, 01:04:08 PM »

I play MAME on the regular but Im not a pirate.. infact I still buy some of theose compilations they relase even though I have the games in other forms.

That said, I would love to play some obscure MAME titles that would never be released on the PSP.
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« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2005, 03:45:54 PM »

I dont have a PSP, or any handheld, for me they dont hold any interest, really.  The ability to have some sort of platform to play a game you already own, i dont see a problem with.  When I had a CD player at home, and only a tape deck in my car, I would make a copy.  Which by industry standards was ok.  Even back in the days of cassettes the companies complained about people copying thier stuff.  and tried to get it banned.  It didnt work.  They learned to live with it.  In my opinion on the music thing,  if the industry had not gotten greedy and tried to milk fans for as much as they could there would not have been such a HUGE boom in downloading music.

Games, I think are falling under the same category.  I understand that take a lot of man hours, and money to complete, but sometimes the price is out rageous for a product that isnt full of bugs and other crap.

Being able to run some sort of Operating system on a handheld means you can use it for other things that just sitting there with a cart plugged into it.  In the PSP case, a UMD.
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« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2005, 11:25:30 PM »

Quote from: "GGMark"
In my opinion on the music thing,  if the industry had not gotten greedy and tried to milk fans for as much as they could there would not have been such a HUGE boom in downloading music.


I have NEVER understood why the legal rulings for "Fair Use" in the case of tapes (both audio and video) were never transfered to the new formats, like CD, DVD, and electronic.

Quote
Games, I think are falling under the same category.  I understand that take a lot of man hours, and money to complete, but sometimes the price is out rageous for a product that isnt full of bugs and other crap.


I agree.  Back in the day when gaming was a tiny niche market, why was $30 adequate, but now that it has mass market appeal, it suddenly requires charging $50-60 per game?  Being a mass market product should drive down prices, since you make money on volume of sales, right?

Quote
Being able to run some sort of Operating system on a handheld means you can use it for other things that just sitting there with a cart plugged into it.  In the PSP case, a UMD.


I was also poking around the DS Linux sites as well.  I dont know linux, and am only marginally interested in knowing how to use it, but when it adds the ability to surf the internet and use it as a PDA to a device like a PSP or DS, that makes it pretty cool in my book.
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« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2005, 12:33:19 AM »

Fair use rules are in effect regardless of whether it's on CD, DVD,  VHS, boradcast, etc. I'm not sure what your point is. There is nothing in the fair use rulings that allow you to share music (either via copy of media or via the internet) with anyone, nor is there anything in fair use that dictates its OK to download music if you happen to think that the music industry is "milking" you.

As far as why games cost so much, "back in the day" a game could be made by two people in their spare time. Now it takes teams of 100-150 people 18 to 24 months to make a AAA game. If it's a blockbuster it'll make tons of cash, but that money also has to cover the niche titles that don't do well.
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« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2005, 01:03:25 AM »

Quote from: "Andrew Mallon"
Fair use rules are in effect regardless of whether it's on CD, DVD,  VHS, boradcast, etc.


That isnt true- it was brought back into court and had to be relitigated.  Laws were also created which were specific to optical and digital media, which means new laws are going to be required when technology changes to a new delivery format.

Quote
I'm not sure what your point is. There is nothing in the fair use rulings that allow you to share music (either via copy of media or via the internet) with anyone, nor is there anything in fair use that dictates its OK to download music if you happen to think that the music industry is "milking" you.


Im dont remeber saying anything about sharing or copying.

Quote
As far as why games cost so much, "back in the day" a game could be made by two people in their spare time. Now it takes teams of 100-150 people 18 to 24 months to make a AAA game. If it's a blockbuster it'll make tons of cash, but that money also has to cover the niche titles that don't do well.


I would cite the higher cost of supporting a CEO or President, and all the other administration people who do nothing to actually create the games.  Small development companies are still releasing AAA titles (remember that company called id?).

The reason it costs so much is due to the business model, not the direct cost of MAKING the game.
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« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2005, 02:30:01 AM »

Quote from: "unbreakable"
Small development companies are still releasing AAA titles (remember that company called id?).


That small company sold their last retail product at a MSRP of $55 if I remember correctly.  

I've been been playing console games since 1987 and computer games since 1992 and I can never remember a time when the average retail price of a game wasn't approximately $50.  Hell, in the early to mid 90s I can remember quite a few games costing upwards of $70.
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« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2005, 12:31:36 PM »

Ive been getting games since the early 80s.  The average price of an Atari 2600 cartridge was about $30 if I recall.  I paid $30 for my new 'Gold Box' Pool of Radiance for the Commodore 64, this was around 1989.

I dont know what you saw selling for $70, but the places I shopped at never charged that much.  But then again, I have set limits for how much I am willing to pay for games, so would have ignored anything priced that much.

Also, id isnt a little company any longer.  I was using them to illustrate a point; besides, Carmack's Ferarri had to be payed for somehow  Tongue

I also think Valve was a small company when they released Half Life.  IMO, large companies generally stifle innovation, which is why few great games come out of EA any longer.
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« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2005, 01:09:39 PM »

I believe I paid almost 70 for Ultima 5...
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« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2005, 02:07:23 PM »

Yup... Ultima 5 was well over $50, as were most of Origin's franchise titles... I'm pretty sure Strike Commander was pushing $70... so did The 7th Guest.  And that was over a decade ago.  One of the Phantasy Star Genesis games was over $60.  Most of Nintendo's AAA SNES/N64 titles were over $50 too.

An interesting article on the subject...

http://avault.com/articles/getarticle.asp?name=stickershock
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« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2005, 02:37:05 PM »

I never said that Downloading music was OK either.  I just said that the music industry claims its whats ruining the industry.  And in my opinion, I dont think thats the case.  My point was that I believe it would have happened to a lesser extent than it does, if they had not cranked the price of CD's, and the bands the people were buying CD's of had made quality music.

I USED to be a HUGE Metallica.  I havent bought a single album since the Black Album.  For me, the things that made metallica who they were are gone.  

You bow to pressure, from the industry and media to make a 'toned down' album of some sort, and you get more radio play.  Now this gives you a larger fan base initially.  But in the long run, you loose a lot of fans who liked what you WERE doing.  The new fans you pick up, or the generation of fans from today, where a band is really only cool for a year or two.  With some exceptions.

I do remember SOME games back in  the day being really pricey, Ultima was one of the, I remember being seriously sad when that came out at that price.  I was a fan of the Ultima series.

I said I understand the teams, and what involved in todays games, the fact that they need to pay for voice actors and such.  But all in all, its greed thats driving it.  The CEO's and execs need to drive nice cars, have huge homes.  The voice actors need to be paid said amount of money to come in a read a script.  I would venture that if it were a small amount of money, most wouldnt do it.
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« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2005, 02:46:11 PM »

Yeah, what Laner and KD said about pricing.  Origin was fairly notorious for being over $50 and considering how many classics they produced in that era that's a pretty significant chunk.  I also seem to remember paying a $5 or $10 premium for Lucasarts' CD editions of their games but I might not be remembering that one correctly.  

Otherwise I can't remember any major games that came out that weren't approx $50 MSRP at release.
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« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2005, 03:12:11 PM »

Ah... I just started reading that article and found probably the main exception to my buying rule-  I got NWN the day it came out, and didnt even wait for it to go on sale.  I even recall how crazy it felt slapping down close to $70 (after tax) for the game, but sometimes you just have to shell out the money on stuff you really want, price be damned.

They also mention WC3, but as I recall, it was pretty hard to buy that game anywhere it WASNT on sale.  I think part of it's success was the high quality and lower price.
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