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Author Topic: I didn't want to do it but... -->VENT  (Read 2130 times)
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Jack Burton
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« on: November 13, 2005, 05:09:23 AM »

IF I hear another complaint about starforce CD protection I'll *&^#&*!  Starforce is great for s/w makers, period.  Anyone (generalization, you know what I mean, you know who you are) who says otherwise is a pirate and steals others work.  If STARFORCE doesn't work or breaks shit on your computer, thats starforce dev's fault.  I'm sure that whoever decides to use starforce has been assured that starforce will not cause any problems on peoples machines.  Its not like the dev is out to get your computer busted.  If I was a developer needing some cash I'd be tempted to use it on my S/W.  Last I checked STARFORCE was working fine.  Poor devs, breaking their asses for pennies already with publishers and other middle*#&@s carving out profit.  

Okay got that out of the way.  I can't wait to see all the  :roll: posts on me.  But C'est La Vie.  

It seems that any new game that comes out with SF protect, there are 50 threads everywhere filled with people that say they won't buy the game.  Pshaaa.  Thats because you weren't going to buy it anyway.

Does ANYONE agree with me?

.
.
.

Okay I'm ready for the flames now.  smile
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Zarkon
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« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2005, 05:24:04 AM »

I have no problem with copy protection.

That being said, Copy protection by and large dosen't work.  Nor, do I think is it really meant to.  Copy protection is primarily aimed at the average Joe who wants to copy his friend's game.  It's not meant to stop widespread piracy, and in fact dosen't.

The problem with most copy protection in general other than the fact that it dosen't really change much is the fact that it's notorious for not being compatible with various CD drives, DVD drives, -legal- backup software, et al.  

Starforce, unfortunately, is the worst of the lot because it does, or did, install low-level hardware drivers into your computer system without asking for prior permission, and in fact won't run the game until you reboot the computer so that these drivers can be installed and get set up.  Worse, removing the game dosen't always remove the protection.  Not necessarily Starforce's fault on -that- score, but there you go.  And, sometimes when you remove the protection, it dosen't all go away.  Computer systems have been hosed because of it.

Unfortunately, the sad reality is that we're never going to get away from copy protection.  However, that dosen't give game publishers the right to use protection schemes which are patently unfriendly towards consumers.  After all, pirates are never hurt by copy protection because of the simple fact that pirate groups -remove- said protection (including Starforce) before the game is ever distributed to the internet via various methods.  So the only people who really are affected negatively by copy protection are people who actually BOUGHT the game.

People don't like Starforce because it has a bad history, period.
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« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2005, 05:24:48 AM »

Quote from: "Jack Burton"
Starforce is great for s/w makers, period.

Certainly it is good for software makers.  Good for consumers?  Maybe - maybe not.

Quote from: "Jack Burton"
Anyone (generalization, you know what I mean, you know who you are) who says otherwise is a pirate and steals others work.

Just being opposed to Starforce makes you a pirate and a thief?  One can't be opposed just because the program installs a low-level driver that doesn't get uninstalled when the game is uninstalled?

Quote from: "Jack Burton"
It seems that any new game that comes out with SF protect, there are 50 threads everywhere filled with people that say they won't buy the game.  Pshaaa.  Thats because you weren't going to buy it anyway.

The only Starforce game I seriously thought about buying was Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory but I haven't because of Starforce.  I can't support something I disagree with.  I haven't bought it yet and when I do I'll probably get the console version.

Quote from: "Jack Burton"
Does ANYONE agree with me?

Surprisingly yes!  I think you'll find many who do agree with you.  That's okay.  We don't need to divide the world into Starforce supporters and Starforce detractors and go to war.  You guys would lose anyway as your tank would crash halfway into the battle.  :p

Quote from: "Jack Burton"
Okay I'm ready for the flames now.  smile

No flames.  Just a difference of opinion.  Just because you're wrong doesn't mean we need to be unkind.   Tongue
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Daehawk
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« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2005, 06:46:59 AM »

I dont think using a nocd crack constitues piracy.
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Zarkon
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« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2005, 06:52:37 AM »

No, but according to the strict letter of the law, it's a felony.  Violation of the DMCA and all, donchaknow.
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Thin_J
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« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2005, 07:42:26 AM »

Quote from: "Jack Burton"
they won't buy the game.  Pshaaa.  Thats because you weren't going to buy it anyway.


I've skipped out on three games so far that I would have bought otherwise because they contained starforce.

And I wanted to play the King Kong demo too, but stopped the download when I found out that it contained starforce.

The most recent one that I truly wanted to play but didn't was Silent Hunter III.

I'm just not supporting developers that use that crap. Say what you want about safedisc and the other copy protection methods, but at least they don't install a bunch of hidden processes and/or device drivers on your system with your your knowledge and then make it hard to remove them without downloading yet more stuff from the internet.
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Beer Goggles
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« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2005, 01:08:55 PM »

Publishers can use Starforce all they want, I will just skip those titles.
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Hetz
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« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2005, 01:17:15 PM »

I HATE STARFORCE.

(and screw you if you call me a pirate cause I spend WAY TO MUCH on computer and video games each year than I should and I am no pirate!)

It has screwed up my system each time that I tried to play a game with it on it. I now refuse to by any game that has Starforce on it.
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Hamsterball_Z
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« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2005, 02:29:11 PM »

Quote from: "Jack Burton"
IF I hear another complaint about starforce CD protection I'll *&^#&*!  Starforce is great for s/w makers, period.

Let's see....

Quote
Anyone (generalization, you know what I mean, you know who you are) who says otherwise is a pirate and steals others work.

Come on, you know this statement is stupid, inflammatory and just plain wrong.  :roll: for you.

Quote
If STARFORCE doesn't work or breaks shit on your computer, that's starforce dev's fault.  I'm sure that whoever decides to use starforce has been assured that starforce will not cause any problems on peoples machines.  Its not like the dev is out to get your computer busted.
 
If devs are aware of problems caused by Starforce maybe they should think twice about using using it.  It makes them look bad if their game breaks someones computer to the point of needing a reformat to work again.  Most people aren't like us, they don't know about Starforce.  They just know they installed Product X and it killed their computer.  That's very bad for developers.  If you want sales you don't want a bad experience with Product X keeping people from buying Products Y and Z.
Quote
If I was a developer needing some cash I'd be tempted to use it on my S/W.  Last I checked STARFORCE was working fine.

Does Starforce = sales?  I didn't know that.  Now I see why they use it.  :roll:  Starforce isn't as bad as it was as far as doing serious damage goes.  BUT, even if it causes no problems a program like this shouldn't be running 24/7.  It should only run when it's installing program is running.  Don't take up my CPU cycles when you're not needed.

Quote
Poor devs, breaking their asses for pennies already with publishers and other middle*#&@s carving out profit.
 
Maybe publishers and middlemen are a bigger problem than piracy then.  Self publishing is hard but maybe you can carve out a bigger profit even if your sales are low.  

The thing is that just because you have a good product doesn't guarantee you sales.  Look at any other entertainment industry and you'll see the same problem.  Just because you can play a guitar and play it well doesn't mean your album is going to make it to the top 10.  

Quote
Okay got that out of the way.  I can't wait to see all the  :roll: posts on me.  But C'est La Vie.

You asked for them, you got them.  :twisted:

Quote
It seems that any new game that comes out with SF protect, there are 50 threads everywhere filled with people that say they won't buy the game.  Pshaaa.  Thats because you weren't going to buy it anyway.
If you got burned the first time are you going to put your hand back in the fire?  Hey, everyone gets a chance to VENT, right?  :wink:

Quote
Does ANYONE agree with me?

Dunno, does Kobra post here?  :lol:
 :roll:  :twisted:
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Samurai
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« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2005, 05:21:21 PM »

All the newest Starforce games are still getting bypassed.  Sure, they may not have nocd patches for them out yet, but anyone who wants to pirate them easily can.

Why is it worth putting your paying customers through the frustration of Starforce when the only upside is a slight inconvenience to pirates?
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Reemul
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« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2005, 08:15:17 PM »

Gotta disagree with that last post, sure they appear no the scene but to get them to work reliably and regularly it`s not happening, you need all sorts of programs running and removing cables etc etc, so many people bitching and whining about it.

Personally i have no issue with any copy protection, no one forces me to buy any particular game and i`m sure 99% of game buyers have no idea what copy protection even is.

Even better is the warez scene is no longer cracking every game and update that comes out so many more people are either playing the bugged inital release or have to go and buy the game to use the patches, this is a good thing imo as most games need a good patch or 2 anyways.
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dbt1949
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« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2005, 10:47:24 PM »

I'm sorry but copy protection the the publishers problem.It shouldn't be mine. All I am is a consumer.I don't care about their problems.That's their problem,not mine. Fine don't make PC games anymore.With my backlog I should be able to last the rest of my life.
Most of the games I buy are from independent developers anyway.Yes I do buy "A" titles on occasion buy that's not my main consumption.
The early Starforce did screw up one of my computers.The lastest version hasn't screwed up my gaming rig.I bought a game not knowing it had Starforce on it but decided to give it a try rather than just reselling the game for a loss. It worked fine.I still don't trust it on my other rigs.
I'm not preaching against it,I'm just boycotting it (to the best of my ability).
It's still the publishers problem not mine and I should not have to pay for it.
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« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2005, 10:47:30 PM »

Quote from: "Jack Burton"
Anyone (generalization, you know what I mean, you know who you are) who says otherwise is a pirate and steals others work.


Well, if we're getting into generalizations, anyone (generalization, you know what I mean, you know who you are) who says that is a pedophile.  go back to the playground bucko.

Would you care to retract your bullshit statement now?
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Jack Burton
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« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2005, 12:24:34 AM »

Quote
I dont think using a nocd crack constitues piracy.

I agree with you.  I in fact like the idea of not having to have to put the CD in to play.  Illegal or not.  Obviosly that ability is extremely open to piracy.

Quote
(and screw you if you call me a pirate cause I spend WAY TO MUCH on computer and video games each year than I should and I am no pirate!)

Cool w/ me.  I was talking to those that do specifically.  I guess if I want to play a game, I'll buy it.  Regardless of copy protection.  I really tihnk that the "negatives" of starforce (especially the latest version, at least from what I've read) are blown way out of proportion.

Quote
Come on, you know this statement is stupid, inflammatory and just plain wrong. Rolling Eyes for you.

I know.  I was emotional. smile (hence the "VENT" clause)

Quote
Does Starforce = sales?

Apparently, quite the contrary.  What I was getting at was -> Starforce = Less piracy.  And there is a TON of it.  I've seen it first hand.  As I'm sure everyone (<-uh-oh, another one) here has.

Quote
Maybe publishers and middlemen are a bigger problem than piracy then.

I don't think that they are a bigger problem but I think that they are definitely part of it.  I still believe that piracy is the biggest killer to devs.

Quote
You asked for them, you got them. :Twisted Evil:

slywink

Quote
Hey, everyone gets a chance to VENT, right? :Wink:

True... True. smile

Quote
Would you care to retract your bullshit statement now?

No.  Thats why I said, "(generalization, you know what I mean, you know who you are)".  Because YOU DO KNOW WHO YOU ARE.  :twisted:

Quote
I'm sorry but copy protection the the publishers problem.

Is it?  If people didn't pirate we wouldn't need copy protection.  I would say that it is OUR (players) problem.

Well I am suprized that the response hasn't been worse.  Now that I've calmed down, my perspective is a little better.  Thx for the vent GT. biggrin
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dbt1949
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« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2005, 01:13:29 AM »

Quote
Is it? If people didn't pirate we wouldn't need copy protection. I would say that it is OUR (players) problem.


I reiterate.that's the publisher's problem not mine.My job is not to protect the publisher's property nor to police the pirates.My job is just to spend money and have joyous fun! :wink:


PS I have never nor do I ever intend to pirate games.And yes I think it's wrong and they should be caught and punished to the full extent of the law.So there. :wink:
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Ye Olde Farte
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« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2005, 01:26:49 AM »

This thread is ironic; you hate threads about SF but now you're gonna get folks like me in here who hate SF   :wink:

It did screw my system up big time, and it took me forever to track down the problem.  Basically, I couldn't burn anything after I got SF on my system.  Out of desperation I did a clean wipe.  Burner works.  Install games.   Eventually burner dies again.  After much searching I narrowed it down to the game that was causing the problems, and that's when I was enlightened on the holy blessings that starforce graciously bestowed upon me.  Another wipe, this time without the culprit SF, and all was fine.  Since then, I avoid SF like the plague.   It actually nudged me closer to becoming a pure console gamer.   EAT IT STARFORCE!
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« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2005, 04:07:46 AM »

I think we've hit upon something here.  No one is against copy protection.  Publishers do have a right to try and prevent priacy of their product.  What we are against tho is the side effects of said copy protection.  It started with games not working with some CD ROM drives, moved to scanning software for "priate" utilities (like CloneCD, Daemon tools, etc.) and now they've moved to installing low level device drivers (Starforce) and now even rootkits! (Sony's stupid CD copy protection).  It has gotten out of hand.  Even worse the fact that this stuff is installed without my knowledge.  Nowhere on the package or in the installer does it say that any sort of drivers or other crap is also installed.  So if it breaks my machine how can I find the problem if I don't know it's there?  And if I do determine that said software is causing a problem can I return it?  No because I opened it and return policies don't allow refunds on opend software.  So bascially the consumer is screwed.

As far as I'm concerned copy protection like Starforce and Sony's DRM crap are no different than any of the other spyware/malware garbage floating around on the Internet.  They are installed without my knowledge and potentially run in the background doing things that I have not authorized.    The programmers that design this crap should be ashamed of themselves.
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Bob
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« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2005, 03:33:05 PM »

Quote
Say what you want about safedisc and the other copy protection methods, but at least they don't install a bunch of hidden processes and/or device drivers on your system with your your knowledge and then make it hard to remove them without downloading yet more stuff from the internet.

Actually, the only reason that Safedisc doesn't install a low-level driver is because you already have it.  It comes installed with Windows.  Really.
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« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2005, 07:38:10 PM »

Quote from: "Interloper"
It actually nudged me closer to becoming a pure console gamer.   EAT IT STARFORCE!


Between lame patching just to get a game to work as WELL as Copy protection routines, I *HAVE* become a console gamer.
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« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2005, 07:42:22 PM »

Quote from: "egrudzin"
No one is against copy protection.


I am, to a degree. I am of the belief that Piracy can MAKE a company. Look at Microsoft, and how prolific their software is... how much of it is legit? How many people had Win31x? The ease of product and the prolific levels of piracy made them the de-facto standard over any competition, just like VHS over Betamax. (good luck Blu-Ray.. Sony doesn't have a stellar "standards" history... but I digress).

In all seriousness, I think copy protection needs to be there to prevent a casual theft... just like a door lock. It's not the answer to piracy; people are greedy and unless some strict moral code is imposed forcing all to comply with an unblinking uncaring eye of justice, you might as well yell at your grass until they line up in symmetrical rows. Life is Chaos. Get used to it.

You lock your house when you go to work, but do you fasten bars to the windows and reinforce the walls beside the door so someone can't just back up a pickup into your house? If someone wants in (and professional thieves do) they WILL get in. Hell, they even use explosives if necessary.

Most thieves/pirates aren't professional, they're opportunists with a bit of ability and casual intent. That lock prevents them from walking into your house with no forced entry, taking stuff and walking out unnoticed.

I can't wait for Palladium ... "Did you ever wonder why we had to run for shelter with promise of a brave new world beneath the clear blue skies?" -Pink Floyd (quite possibly misquoted... I'm tired)
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corruptrelic
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« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2005, 11:24:14 AM »

Quote
Anyone (generalization, you know what I mean, you know who you are) who says otherwise is a pirate and steals others work.
Damn, I guess we have a lot of pirates here then! I'll have to agree with everyone else on Starforce. The only game I can remember playing that had it was either Cossacks or American Conquest.
It's definitely unfair to say anyone who doesn't agree with Starforce is a pirate. A little side topic but with something like Steam, I coudn't get Half-Life 2 because of having to be online just to install and play it. What if you don't even have internet access?
I of course ended up giving in to my own personal bias against steam and getting half-life 2 anyway (still hate steam though) but you really need to get your facts together before you start throwing out accusations like that. How can you pretend to speak on behalf of everyone else out there? Just because you don't mind stuff being installed on your computer without your permission doesn't mean others are ok with it as well.
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