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Author Topic: How are you feeling about your pre-orders now?  (Read 11103 times)
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YellowKing
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« Reply #280 on: October 01, 2013, 05:50:03 PM »

Quote from: TiLT
You underestimate the power of brand loyalty.

What does that mean? PS3 and Xbox 360 had roughly the same install base last-gen, so if we based this gen purely off brand loyalty then we should again see roughly equal pre-orders.

In this economic climate, I'd bet on cash in pocket over brand loyalty any day of the week.


 


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« Reply #281 on: October 01, 2013, 05:52:36 PM »

Quote from: Harkonis on October 01, 2013, 05:42:01 PM

because the customer actually DOESN'T understand the importance of the Kinect.
Well you can't blame them, Microsoft doesn't seem to know what it's for either. stirthepot
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« Reply #282 on: October 01, 2013, 05:54:12 PM »

Quote from: forgeforsaken on October 01, 2013, 05:52:36 PM

Quote from: Harkonis on October 01, 2013, 05:42:01 PM

because the customer actually DOESN'T understand the importance of the Kinect.
Well you can't blame them, Microsoft doesn't seem to know what it's for either. stirthepot

yes they do.  TV and sports!
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« Reply #283 on: October 01, 2013, 06:01:52 PM »

Quote from: CeeKay on October 01, 2013, 05:54:12 PM

Quote from: forgeforsaken on October 01, 2013, 05:52:36 PM

Quote from: Harkonis on October 01, 2013, 05:42:01 PM

because the customer actually DOESN'T understand the importance of the Kinect.
Well you can't blame them, Microsoft doesn't seem to know what it's for either. stirthepot

yes they do.  TV and sports!

Click Like.
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« Reply #284 on: October 01, 2013, 06:06:09 PM »



Fanbois.    Like Dante's uncommitted souls doomed to chase blank banners for all eternity.      The horde chases the horde, and then as soon as a few break to another the horde follows.
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« Reply #285 on: October 01, 2013, 06:26:57 PM »

Quote from: Purge on October 01, 2013, 02:37:59 PM


Buyers make decisions on past products, regardless if it's fair. There is enough press saying the controller is significantly different. We'll see. smile

Then that must mean people won't buy the XBO because of all the red ring issues the 360 had.  I know it's one of the many reasons I am giving the hardware until next year until I buy one.
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« Reply #286 on: October 01, 2013, 06:34:19 PM »

Quote from: The Grue on October 01, 2013, 06:26:57 PM

Quote from: Purge on October 01, 2013, 02:37:59 PM


Buyers make decisions on past products, regardless if it's fair. There is enough press saying the controller is significantly different. We'll see. smile

Then that must mean people won't buy the XBO because of all the red ring issues the 360 had.  I know it's one of the many reasons I am giving the hardware until next year until I buy one.

Yes - I know people that won't buy a 360 slim for the same reason. I'm leery of Sony's network due to their snafu with my personal info and poor security.

More than dollars is consumer confidence, but brand loyalty is the idea that I'm buying a Sony or a Microsoft, not MS did this, and Sony did that. Past behaviour is considered to be indicative of future behaviour.

Sony did away with free multiplayer, and I think that was a stand-out option. MS has something to show for the extra $100 upfront cost, and Sony does not. Both require subscription, and I think that is the biggest difference that is being overlooked.

MS will need to be more competitive with pricing, and dropping cost on avatar crap. Sony, OTOH, will need to show that it's online service is worth the outlay. Some say Plus already does that, but it doesn't justify the cost for those who will have a PS4 as their "alternative" console. Other than the cross-platform games, I just don't see anything compelling me to want to play online - so if I have both and XB is my primary, I just can't see dropping cash on two subscriptions.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 06:36:38 PM by Purge » Logged

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« Reply #287 on: October 01, 2013, 06:36:07 PM »

Quote from: YellowKing on October 01, 2013, 05:50:03 PM

Quote from: TiLT
You underestimate the power of brand loyalty.

What does that mean? PS3 and Xbox 360 had roughly the same install base last-gen, so if we based this gen purely off brand loyalty then we should again see roughly equal pre-orders.

I think you just failed today's class on statistics. Tongue

I don't really understand how what I said could be unambiguous, but since you don't seem to understand what I mean when I say "brand loyalty", let me be more clear: A lot of people, once invested in a brand, will continue to buy that brand even if there are good reasons not to (up to a certain point). A lot of people. Not all people, which is what you seemed to think I was talking about.

The claim was that the PS4 would outsell the Xbox One purely on the merit of cost. My point was that that's not certain at all (at least not in the US and UK) considering the power of brand loyalty. The advantage of price could easily have been countered by that alone. Turns out there are plenty more factors than price this time around though, so we'll never know.
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« Reply #288 on: October 01, 2013, 06:37:14 PM »

Quote from: Purge on October 01, 2013, 06:34:19 PM

MS has something to show for the extra $100 upfront cost, and Sony does not.

Why on Earth should Sony have to show something for Microsoft's $100 upfront cost? That's solely Microsoft's task, and they're failing horribly at it.
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« Reply #289 on: October 01, 2013, 06:38:14 PM »

Quote from: Purge on October 01, 2013, 06:34:19 PM

Quote from: The Grue on October 01, 2013, 06:26:57 PM

Quote from: Purge on October 01, 2013, 02:37:59 PM


Buyers make decisions on past products, regardless if it's fair. There is enough press saying the controller is significantly different. We'll see. smile

Then that must mean people won't buy the XBO because of all the red ring issues the 360 had.  I know it's one of the many reasons I am giving the hardware until next year until I buy one.

Yes - I know people that won't buy a 360 slim for the same reason. I'm leery of Sony's network due to their snafu with my personal info and poor security.

Well Microsoft isn't exactly on great footing here either.  I know several people that had their accounts hacked during the Fifa scam nonsense that went down.  And while the Sony hacking incident was a problem, I didn't know of it directly impacting anyone as opposed to the Xbox hacks, where I had multiple friends hacked, lose money/points, and lose their online access for a month or longer while it was sorted out.
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« Reply #290 on: October 01, 2013, 06:42:43 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on October 01, 2013, 06:37:14 PM

Quote from: Purge on October 01, 2013, 06:34:19 PM

MS has something to show for the extra $100 upfront cost, and Sony does not.

Why on Earth should Sony have to show something for Microsoft's $100 upfront cost? That's solely Microsoft's task, and they're failing horribly at it.

Looks like you fail at getting the point slywink.

If I buy a truck, or I buy a truck and trailer but have to pay more, I can reason the cost. Why is Sony now charging for MP when it was free? They're forcing every single Sony MP customer into a pay-to-play model, which is different than what they were doing before. When you're at the till, those Xbox One customers know they're paying a subscription for Live.

Imagine if they simply announced pay2play on PS3. The howling of the masses would deafen even the stones underfoot.
Dramatic? Yes. No less accurate though. The value proposition has dropped, but they hid it (even in the E3 presentation) with the distraction of what "The other guy is doing."

But now they're doing the same thing.
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« Reply #291 on: October 01, 2013, 06:55:47 PM »

Quote from: forgeforsaken on October 01, 2013, 06:38:14 PM

Quote from: Purge on October 01, 2013, 06:34:19 PM

Quote from: The Grue on October 01, 2013, 06:26:57 PM

Quote from: Purge on October 01, 2013, 02:37:59 PM


Buyers make decisions on past products, regardless if it's fair. There is enough press saying the controller is significantly different. We'll see. smile

Then that must mean people won't buy the XBO because of all the red ring issues the 360 had.  I know it's one of the many reasons I am giving the hardware until next year until I buy one.

Yes - I know people that won't buy a 360 slim for the same reason. I'm leery of Sony's network due to their snafu with my personal info and poor security.

Well Microsoft isn't exactly on great footing here either.  I know several people that had their accounts hacked during the Fifa scam nonsense that went down.  And while the Sony hacking incident was a problem, I didn't know of it directly impacting anyone as opposed to the Xbox hacks, where I had multiple friends hacked, lose money/points, and lose their online access for a month or longer while it was sorted out.

Is this what you're talking about?

It wasn't a direct MS breach of their network. It was social engineering and fraudulent calls. The same kinds of calls that can happen in any industry.

As for "not directly impacting anyone":

Quote
At the time of the outage, with a count of 77 million registered PlayStation Network accounts,[7] it was one of the largest data security breaches in history.[8][9] It surpassed the 2007 TJX hack which affected 45 million customers.[10] Government officials in various countries voiced concern over the theft and Sony's one-week delay before warning its users.

It affected everyone. Developers, publishers, Sony and it's shareholders, game players who just wanted to play on PSN including the 77 million potential victims of identity theft - those people who also were only told of the breach a WEEK after it happened.
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« Reply #292 on: October 01, 2013, 07:21:24 PM »

Quote from: Purge on October 01, 2013, 06:55:47 PM

Quote from: forgeforsaken on October 01, 2013, 06:38:14 PM

Quote from: Purge on October 01, 2013, 06:34:19 PM

Quote from: The Grue on October 01, 2013, 06:26:57 PM

Quote from: Purge on October 01, 2013, 02:37:59 PM


Buyers make decisions on past products, regardless if it's fair. There is enough press saying the controller is significantly different. We'll see. smile

Then that must mean people won't buy the XBO because of all the red ring issues the 360 had.  I know it's one of the many reasons I am giving the hardware until next year until I buy one.

Yes - I know people that won't buy a 360 slim for the same reason. I'm leery of Sony's network due to their snafu with my personal info and poor security.

Well Microsoft isn't exactly on great footing here either.  I know several people that had their accounts hacked during the Fifa scam nonsense that went down.  And while the Sony hacking incident was a problem, I didn't know of it directly impacting anyone as opposed to the Xbox hacks, where I had multiple friends hacked, lose money/points, and lose their online access for a month or longer while it was sorted out.

Is this what you're talking about?

It wasn't a direct MS breach of their network. It was social engineering and fraudulent calls. The same kinds of calls that can happen in any industry.

That doesn't pass muster and they've never really come clean about went down IMO.  It was way too widespread, and there were a lot of anecdotal reports of people with unique complex passwords having their accounts compromised.  There was either a flaw in their system or it was an inside job by their support team.
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« Reply #293 on: October 01, 2013, 07:28:18 PM »

Come clean? Their system wasn't hacked. You're comparing apples to oranges.

People do this shit with Mastercard and Visa, Amazon, etc. It isn't a hack, it is using social engineering to fraudulently represent you to support, and then use your sign-in to take advantage of the "local" license that allows you to play your games while offline.

MS suggested heartbeat requirements, and the market hit the roof.

Make up your bloody mind.
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« Reply #294 on: October 01, 2013, 07:30:00 PM »

Quote from: Harkonis on October 01, 2013, 05:42:01 PM

because the customer actually DOESN'T understand the importance of the Kinect.

I rarely use my phone's camera, but I don't get all shitty at Apple for including one and making me pay for it.  You guys are odd to me.

FYI, you can use that to store two-dimensional representations of the world around you.
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« Reply #295 on: October 01, 2013, 07:35:45 PM »

Quote from: Purge on October 01, 2013, 07:28:18 PM

Come clean? Their system wasn't hacked. You're comparing apples to oranges.

People do this shit with Mastercard and Visa, Amazon, etc. It isn't a hack, it is using social engineering to fraudulently represent you to support, and then use your sign-in to take advantage of the "local" license that allows you to play your games while offline.

MS suggested heartbeat requirements, and the market hit the roof.

Make up your bloody mind.

They absolutely had a security breach.   

Several people on this forum were hit http://gamingtrend.com/forums/console-gaming/xbox-lived-may-be-hacked/
which is one of several threads about it.   Also many reviewers were hit as well such as Tom Chick and Geoff Keighley.

It was far too common and widespread to be what they claim.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 07:42:26 PM by forgeforsaken » Logged
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« Reply #296 on: October 01, 2013, 07:52:42 PM »

Quote from: Purge on October 01, 2013, 06:42:43 PM

Why is Sony now charging for MP when it was free? They're forcing every single Sony MP customer into a pay-to-play model, which is different than what they were doing before. When you're at the till, those Xbox One customers know they're paying a subscription for Live.

The reason people aren't bitching about Sony's move to charging for MP on the PS4 is because PS+ actually has some perceived value with their instant game collection and discounts on newly-released software.  MS has even copied that, but not seeming to understand what makes it great, they have offered a couple of several year old games.  MS even has the gall to stick Netflix behind their Live subscription, which is just laughable.  It's not even the best Netflix experience...PS3 beats it handily with its 1080p streaming.

Now, what remains to be seen is whether Sony delivers better MP than they have in the past for this fee.  Can't answer that until the 15th of November.

I get no value out of paying for Live, which is why I don't anymore.
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YellowKing
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« Reply #297 on: October 01, 2013, 07:57:30 PM »

Quote
The claim was that the PS4 would outsell the Xbox One purely on the merit of cost. My point was that that's not certain at all (at least not in the US and UK) considering the power of brand loyalty. The advantage of price could easily have been countered by that alone. Turns out there are plenty more factors than price this time around though, so we'll never know.

Nothing's 100% certain, but if we go by recent history, the cheapest console won....at least in the beginning. The Wii didn't win the market in 2005 due to brand loyalty. And if you look at analysts remarks - people who forecast this stuff for a living, they're focusing on price, supply, etc. not brand loyalty. I'm not saying brand loyalty is a non-factor, but I think there are other factors that are far more important.

If you still don't believe me, read this:

Xbox One Versus PS4: Why Brand Loyalty Won't Matter In short, history doesn't support your claims.
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« Reply #298 on: October 01, 2013, 08:10:54 PM »

Brand loyalty will make people give it a shot so long as it is shown to be technically sound. Then after that, brand loyalty also comes with an expectation that the kind of games you saw from previous systems in the brand will come back, do so in short order.

This is why the PS3 managed to stay afloat after the disastrous launch, they managed to get it technically sound, and also provided the games you couldn't get elsewhere. Meanwhile, real exclusives dwindled from the 360 the moment they got dominance.

It's why I think the XB1 will do fine so long as MS keeps the exclusives flowing.
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« Reply #299 on: October 01, 2013, 08:25:32 PM »

Quote from: Purge on October 01, 2013, 06:42:43 PM

Quote from: TiLT on October 01, 2013, 06:37:14 PM

Quote from: Purge on October 01, 2013, 06:34:19 PM

MS has something to show for the extra $100 upfront cost, and Sony does not.

Why on Earth should Sony have to show something for Microsoft's $100 upfront cost? That's solely Microsoft's task, and they're failing horribly at it.

Looks like you fail at getting the point slywink.

And you fail at basic math. Or at avoiding hyperbole. Or at comparing stuff. I don't know which is worse.

1 year of PS Plus costs $50. 1 year of Xbox Live Gold costs $60. You don't have to buy a whole year, and you don't have to buy either of them. Buying Xbox Live Gold gives you multiplayer and access to otherwise free services. Playstation gives you access to these free services (that's why they're free after all. Microsoft is the only company that has enough lack of humility to charge for them) no matter if you buy PS Plus or not. Buying PS Plus gives you multiplayer and a shitload of free games every single month, for three different platforms.

Where you're getting this $100 figure from is anyone's guess. Why you say that Sony has nothing to show for the cost of PS Plus when everyone in their right mind can see that their subscription is not only cheaper but offers an enormous value in addition to what Microsoft offers... well, that defies explanation. I can't even begin to understand how your mind works, or maybe how it doesn't.
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« Reply #300 on: October 01, 2013, 09:57:36 PM »

How anyone can...with a straight face....claim that PS+ and XB live gold are somehow the same in value is beyond me. It's almost laughable.

Yes, it sucks that you now have to pay $50 a year for multiplayer on the PS4....but at least they are giving you a ton of free games (for THREE different systems no less) and huge discounts on many popular new games.

It's nothing like Live Gold and their shit sandwich...which they now have sweetened with a few older free games.
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« Reply #301 on: October 01, 2013, 10:14:09 PM »

Quote from: Hetz on October 01, 2013, 09:57:36 PM

How anyone can...with a straight face....claim that PS+ and XB live gold are somehow the same in value is beyond me. It's almost laughable.

Yes, it sucks that you now have to pay $50 a year for multiplayer on the PS4....but at least they are giving you a ton of free games (for THREE different systems no less) and huge discounts on many popular new games.

It's nothing like Live Gold and their shit sandwich...which they now have sweetened with a few older free games.

One could easily argue that at least for the current generation of software, XBL Gold actually provides multiplayer value while PSN (+ or not) is, in fact, the shit sandwich. I don't MP on my PS3 because it is shitty. That value may be worth $50.

Next gen, I believe the the PS4 will learn from its mistakes and not be a terrible piece of shit when it comes to doing multiplayer. If that is the case, it will provide more value than the XBone's MP cost. Do I know this for fact? Absolutely not. I just am betting that it is.
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« Reply #302 on: October 01, 2013, 10:21:42 PM »

Quote from: gellar on October 01, 2013, 10:14:09 PM

Quote from: Hetz on October 01, 2013, 09:57:36 PM

How anyone can...with a straight face....claim that PS+ and XB live gold are somehow the same in value is beyond me. It's almost laughable.

Yes, it sucks that you now have to pay $50 a year for multiplayer on the PS4....but at least they are giving you a ton of free games (for THREE different systems no less) and huge discounts on many popular new games.

It's nothing like Live Gold and their shit sandwich...which they now have sweetened with a few older free games.

One could easily argue that at least for the current generation of software, XBL Gold actually provides multiplayer value while PSN (+ or not) is, in fact, the shit sandwich. I don't MP on my PS3 because it is shitty. That value may be worth $50.

Next gen, I believe the the PS4 will learn from its mistakes and not be a terrible piece of shit when it comes to doing multiplayer. If that is the case, it will provide more value than the XBone's MP cost. Do I know this for fact? Absolutely not. I just am betting that it is.

You know, PSN multiplayer gaming hasn't been shitty for quite a long time. Their download system and PSN store....now that is shitty....but as far as gaming goes, I can't tell a difference between playing COD or Battlefield on PSN vs Live.
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« Reply #303 on: October 01, 2013, 10:21:47 PM »

I'm not a multiplayer gamer anyways but I love the free games of PS+. I think that must be a close to $300 value for $50. If they're also going to improve the multiplayer capabilities by making it not optional then I'm all for that.
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« Reply #304 on: October 01, 2013, 10:29:01 PM »

100 bux difference (USD) in console cost at the counter (aka upfront cost, aka cost of entry, aka the consoles retail cost).

You're right, Hetz. They aren't the same. My point was if the PS4 is my alt system, I am *not* going to maintain two subscriptions - and free PS3 and Vita games gets me what, exactly (when I own exactly none of them)? When I cancelled my PSN+ account, those "free" games left. Didn't like that, but I hand it to Sony - it's smart to reward continued service, and MS fails at getting the value-added on the live service at this time. They are, however, putting in a reputation system to help clean up some of the jackassery on Live - perhaps that's worth the price of subscription.

These are strawmen points - continue bringing them up. Tongue
Charging for Netflix is wrong. (esp. in Canada where Netflix sucks balls)
Charging for IE is wrong.

IMHO these should be dropped to silver access, and bring in some big deals. It sounds like the Games with Gold is a stop-gap - it ends Dec 31, 2013. Any licenses collected are yours to keep though, regardless of "gold" status. They've been migrating their services so clearly they have something in the wings.

It doesn't change the fact that the extra cost, at the register, is quantifiable (included Kinect and all that entails). It may not necessarily be awesome to look at from the "give us choice" perspective, but if this shit works like they advertise, Skype gets a huge boost, and they may in fact have a winner in terms of TV integration (NFL fantasy is their announced partner - they've indicated there are others both locally and abroad).

Also, MS just announced last week that *all* of their app marketplaces are going to be the one and the same (obviously not all apps work on every platform). They've not released details - but it looks like they're going to leverage all services into a single pool - very enticing from a market reach perspective. If they manage to not suck at it (and this is a fingers crossed moment - frankly they can't phone this one in) it adds a lot of value. I wouldn't mind firing up Tapatalk on my console, for instance, esp. in a splitscreen window. Or check my email right there.

We'll see what happens. : shrug : I have a gaming PC, I have a PS4 and a XBone preordered. I just got some tax money and I may end up with both. We'll see - but I'm not getting PSN+ for my PS4 to play Planetside 2 - and the games they've announced with PSN+ on PS4 do not compel. With a remaining 8 months on my Live account, MS has some time to prove their service is worth continuing.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 10:30:47 PM by Purge » Logged

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« Reply #305 on: October 01, 2013, 10:43:53 PM »

Quote from: Hetz on October 01, 2013, 10:21:42 PM

Quote from: gellar on October 01, 2013, 10:14:09 PM

Quote from: Hetz on October 01, 2013, 09:57:36 PM

How anyone can...with a straight face....claim that PS+ and XB live gold are somehow the same in value is beyond me. It's almost laughable.

Yes, it sucks that you now have to pay $50 a year for multiplayer on the PS4....but at least they are giving you a ton of free games (for THREE different systems no less) and huge discounts on many popular new games.

It's nothing like Live Gold and their shit sandwich...which they now have sweetened with a few older free games.

One could easily argue that at least for the current generation of software, XBL Gold actually provides multiplayer value while PSN (+ or not) is, in fact, the shit sandwich. I don't MP on my PS3 because it is shitty. That value may be worth $50.

Next gen, I believe the the PS4 will learn from its mistakes and not be a terrible piece of shit when it comes to doing multiplayer. If that is the case, it will provide more value than the XBone's MP cost. Do I know this for fact? Absolutely not. I just am betting that it is.

You know, PSN multiplayer gaming hasn't been shitty for quite a long time. Their download system and PSN store....now that is shitty....but as far as gaming goes, I can't tell a difference between playing COD or Battlefield on PSN vs Live.

Lack of party chat and universal, wired voice killed PS3 MP for me. Of course both of those things are 'fixed' with the PS4, which is why they get my four hundo.
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« Reply #306 on: October 01, 2013, 10:49:13 PM »

Quote from: Purge on October 01, 2013, 10:29:01 PM

It doesn't change the fact that the extra cost, at the register, is quantifiable (included Kinect and all that entails). It may not necessarily be awesome to look at from the "give us choice" perspective, but if this shit works like they advertise, Skype gets a huge boost, and they may in fact have a winner in terms of TV integration (NFL fantasy is their announced partner - they've indicated there are others both locally and abroad).

I think this remains to be seen. The extra $100 does not get you very much in terms of gaming benefits unless they deliver on a quality Kinect experience, which we're still waiting on proof points for. It'll be interesting to see if brand loyalty (of which there is quite a lot) and good marketing (of which there is almost none) from the Microsoft side will overcome the $100 price tag. It didn't for me, but I am not brand loyal to anyone and I haven't seen a damn thing that the XBone does (yet) that would make me pay $25 more for, much less $100.

I think you (Purge) are willing to pay the extra $100 due to a combination of a) brand loyalty and b) potential. Totally valid decision making. Just curious to see how many agree with that vs not.
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« Reply #307 on: October 01, 2013, 10:57:14 PM »

Pretty much right (though I'd switch A and B personally - I like both Sony and MS, and hate them for things as well).

The wait-and-see was one of the things that kicked this off - calling for MS to drop Kinect 2.0 experiences before we even get to try it.

I didn't see any Ryse integration, but I did ask Titanfall dev (IIRC) about both "cloud" and "Kinect" functionality - to which he laughed and said wait-and-see - no announcements yet.

I just checked the list for XBL - apparently that NFL integration is on the horizon for 360 as well. This I think is smart (if it works). If it's like Smartglass 1.0, then no. Leave that alone.
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« Reply #308 on: October 02, 2013, 04:40:13 AM »

Quote from: Purge on October 01, 2013, 10:29:01 PM

100 bux difference (USD) in console cost at the counter (aka upfront cost, aka cost of entry, aka the consoles retail cost).

Which I originally assumed you were talking about until you said that you weren't. Make up your damned mind!
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« Reply #309 on: October 02, 2013, 01:08:14 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on October 02, 2013, 04:40:13 AM

Quote from: Purge on October 01, 2013, 10:29:01 PM

100 bux difference (USD) in console cost at the counter (aka upfront cost, aka cost of entry, aka the consoles retail cost).

Which I originally assumed you were talking about until you said that you weren't. Make up your damned mind!

Tongue I can see how you misread the "sony doesn't". I'm not suggesting they *need* to prove they're worth the extra 100 they aren't charging. I was simply referring to the fact that it's not one console, one controller, a few cables, and a ~100 difference. MS has something else in the box of arguable value (beyond the free headset).

Whether it becomes important to the "Xbox gaming experience" has yet to be seen. Not everyone wants Fantasia - but there are those that do, and having stuff like the fitness training aspect (which I personally think is a great-but-stupid idea) it means that there are other worthwhile experiences open to their entire customer base, gaming notwithstanding.

The function of Kinect to enhance gaming is promising though - and that's where my "investment" of 100 is going to (as well as three very solid-looking gaming experiences exclusive to the Xbox One).
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« Reply #310 on: October 02, 2013, 01:33:51 PM »

Just because the Xbox One costs $100 more than the PS4 doesn't mean that the Kinect costs $100. That misconception has been around since the beginning and has been debunked. According to an insider, the Kinect costs as much, or maybe even more, than the console itself. The console uses cheaper components (such as the RAM) than the PS4, leading to a lower base price. You shouldn't ask yourself if the Kinect is worth $100. You should ask yourself if it's worth $250.
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« Reply #311 on: October 02, 2013, 04:23:43 PM »

. <---- the point.



. You are here. slywink

I said "quantify" not equals. When people get a "Collectors edition" for an extra 10 dollars, it does not mean the collectibles are worth exactly that money - but you can reason that cost in.

The fact that the Kinect is also in the box means it adds a thing that people will use to measure against price difference. It's just the way it works.

That $250 is speculation, make no mistake - MS has not come out and said how much the camera is actually worth - and what you're basically implying is that box vs. box, the Xbox One is worth LESS than the PS4 (subtracting the 250 from the price). I don't think this is the case either. One of the other things to consider is the Xbox One has cloud integration, so each console is also paying towards some of that (consider the cloud game support that games like DR3 likely leverage).
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« Reply #312 on: October 02, 2013, 04:30:37 PM »

don't make Sony whip out their cloud:

Spoiler for Hiden:

you wouldn't like their cloud.
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« Reply #313 on: October 02, 2013, 04:40:29 PM »

Quote from: CeeKay on October 02, 2013, 04:30:37 PM

don't make Sony whip out their cloud:

Spoiler for Hiden:

you wouldn't like their cloud.

Gaikai is worth, what, 380 Million, everything in? (at least, that's what Sony paid last year) Sony is in a negative equity position, and I *REALLY* hope this works out well for them. Hell, having an advantage out of the gates (ha!) would be really good for gaming.

It humbles MS further, forcing them to push harder in both innovation and deals on gaming, and it also gives Sony a leg up in that they aren't playing catch-up. Sony's hand of cards includes the volatile movies industry, as well as the low-profit electronics divisions where they're competing against companies with ridiculously low mfg costs. I love Sony products (besides an RPTV I had).

I've heard rumblings that MS is working on some BC stuff (or at least, not to discount it happening) though they have denied it to this point. I suspect they aren't about to be caught without an answer to streaming PS3 games through PS4 - which is where Gaikai comes in.

All in all, I'm most concerned about both platforms relying heavily on things like network throughput - ISPs are going to be very busy when this all hits.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 04:42:38 PM by Purge » Logged

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« Reply #314 on: October 02, 2013, 07:11:38 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on October 02, 2013, 01:33:51 PM

Just because the Xbox One costs $100 more than the PS4 doesn't mean that the Kinect costs $100. That misconception has been around since the beginning and has been debunked. According to an insider, the Kinect costs as much, or maybe even more, than the console itself. The console uses cheaper components (such as the RAM) than the PS4, leading to a lower base price. You shouldn't ask yourself if the Kinect is worth $100. You should ask yourself if it's worth $250.

I think that's silly. It's a game console that will play 99% of the games the PS4 will. It happens to cost $100 more. Cheaper components won't matter to the vast, vast majority of the gaming market especially if the games look to be the same at launch. Maybe down the line... but certainly not at launch.

The Xbone is a game console that has a few more tricks than the PS4. It costs $100 more. That's the decision point.
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« Reply #315 on: October 02, 2013, 07:27:13 PM »

Quote from: gellar on October 02, 2013, 07:11:38 PM

Quote from: TiLT on October 02, 2013, 01:33:51 PM

Just because the Xbox One costs $100 more than the PS4 doesn't mean that the Kinect costs $100. That misconception has been around since the beginning and has been debunked. According to an insider, the Kinect costs as much, or maybe even more, than the console itself. The console uses cheaper components (such as the RAM) than the PS4, leading to a lower base price. You shouldn't ask yourself if the Kinect is worth $100. You should ask yourself if it's worth $250.

I think that's silly. It's a game console that will play 99% of the games the PS4 will. It happens to cost $100 more. Cheaper components won't matter to the vast, vast majority of the gaming market especially if the games look to be the same at launch. Maybe down the line... but certainly not at launch.

The Xbone is a game console that has a few more tricks than the PS4. It costs $100 more. That's the decision point.

The idea is that removing Kinect would have made the Xbox One considerably cheaper than the PS4, which makes the Kinect an even harder sell than it already is. Microsoft benefits from pretending that it's just a small cost, when in reality it's actually quite large.
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« Reply #316 on: October 02, 2013, 07:35:54 PM »

Just assuming the $250 figure for the Kinect is accurate, can you imagine what would have happened if MS came out with a no-Kinect Xbone for $250?!  Even if there were entirely noticeable graphical differences compared to the PS4 for every single cross-platform game, it wouldn't matter one bit.  MS would blow Sony out of the water.
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« Reply #317 on: October 02, 2013, 07:47:59 PM »

The analyst estimate of hardware cost before E3 was $275 for PS4 and $325 for Xbox One. The extra $50 for Xbox included Kinect. I don't know where the $250 thing is coming from. Not counting Kinect, the component cost of the PS4 was deemed lower due to Sony using off-the-shelf parts, while Microsoft customized all of their components.
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« Reply #318 on: October 02, 2013, 08:12:08 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on October 02, 2013, 07:27:13 PM

Quote from: gellar on October 02, 2013, 07:11:38 PM

Quote from: TiLT on October 02, 2013, 01:33:51 PM

Just because the Xbox One costs $100 more than the PS4 doesn't mean that the Kinect costs $100. That misconception has been around since the beginning and has been debunked. According to an insider, the Kinect costs as much, or maybe even more, than the console itself. The console uses cheaper components (such as the RAM) than the PS4, leading to a lower base price. You shouldn't ask yourself if the Kinect is worth $100. You should ask yourself if it's worth $250.

I think that's silly. It's a game console that will play 99% of the games the PS4 will. It happens to cost $100 more. Cheaper components won't matter to the vast, vast majority of the gaming market especially if the games look to be the same at launch. Maybe down the line... but certainly not at launch.

The Xbone is a game console that has a few more tricks than the PS4. It costs $100 more. That's the decision point.

The idea is that removing Kinect would have made the Xbox One considerably cheaper than the PS4, which makes the Kinect an even harder sell than it already is. Microsoft benefits from pretending that it's just a small cost, when in reality it's actually quite large.

Who do they benefit from though? I'm an above average informed consumer and I don't give a crap how much the Kinect costs MSFT to make... the console is $100 more and hasn't shown me why I should pay that, therefor I won't.

Quote from: wonderpug on October 02, 2013, 07:35:54 PM

Just assuming the $250 figure for the Kinect is accurate, can you imagine what would have happened if MS came out with a no-Kinect Xbone for $250?!  Even if there were entirely noticeable graphical differences compared to the PS4 for every single cross-platform game, it wouldn't matter one bit.  MS would blow Sony out of the water.

I would have an XBone preorder and not a PS4 preorder, that's for damn sure.
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« Reply #319 on: October 02, 2013, 08:25:33 PM »

I think you have to get out of the Kinect-as-gaming-peripheral mindset. From Microsoft's perspective, this isn't just a game controller. It's the component that allows Xbox One to do voice recognition, facial recognition, switching user profiles based on sight, recognizing multiple players, using gestures to navigate the dashboard, allowing video Skype, measuring heartbeat, etc. It's doing much more than acting as an input for Kinect Sports.

Ripping that out is basically gutting Microsoft's entire vision for the "user experience."

Whether you think that user experience is worth $100 is up to you, but I think it's a mistake to view it from the same perspective as Kinect 1.0. This isn't an add-on, it's an integral part of how they planned for you to interface with the console.
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