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Question: When Hellgate: London is released will you subscribe or no?
YES! - 3 (4.8%)
NO! - 39 (61.9%)
Yes, Lifetime - 5 (7.9%)
Maybe - Wait and See - 16 (25.4%)
Total Voters: 62

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Author Topic: Hellgate: London - Elite or Pleb?  (Read 10132 times)
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Destructor
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« Reply #40 on: September 19, 2007, 06:28:43 PM »

Quote from: wonderpug on September 19, 2007, 06:03:04 PM

- Storage for up to 40 items (instead of 20 for non-subscribers), which can be accessed from any char in an account-wide item vault.
Z: Also probably online, but could be wrong.
W: What are you basing this on?  And on another note, do we know if the elite/pleb difference is just the storage size or does the cross-character storage ability come with elite as well?

From what I know of, this WILL affect your SP gameplay as well. Less storage as well as no ability to trade items between your characters (without going online and getting a mule to hold it for you, anyway).
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« Reply #41 on: September 19, 2007, 06:30:08 PM »

Out unless I get into the beta and it changes my mind. Find their subscription plan nearly insulting in its idiocy.
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« Reply #42 on: September 19, 2007, 06:33:33 PM »

Quote from: Calvin on September 19, 2007, 06:30:08 PM

Out unless I get into the beta and it changes my mind. Find their subscription plan nearly insulting in its idiocy.

+1
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« Reply #43 on: September 19, 2007, 07:26:21 PM »

Quote from: Destructor on September 19, 2007, 06:28:43 PM

Quote from: wonderpug on September 19, 2007, 06:03:04 PM

- Storage for up to 40 items (instead of 20 for non-subscribers), which can be accessed from any char in an account-wide item vault.
Z: Also probably online, but could be wrong.
W: What are you basing this on?  And on another note, do we know if the elite/pleb difference is just the storage size or does the cross-character storage ability come with elite as well?

From what I know of, this WILL affect your SP gameplay as well. Less storage as well as no ability to trade items between your characters (without going online and getting a mule to hold it for you, anyway).

The impression I've gotten is that what Tim said is true.  No way to get your stuff to other characters other than mules or friends unless you subscribe. 
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« Reply #44 on: September 19, 2007, 07:47:14 PM »

Quote from: Knightshade Dragon on September 19, 2007, 07:26:21 PM

Quote from: Destructor on September 19, 2007, 06:28:43 PM

Quote from: wonderpug on September 19, 2007, 06:03:04 PM

- Storage for up to 40 items (instead of 20 for non-subscribers), which can be accessed from any char in an account-wide item vault.
Z: Also probably online, but could be wrong.
W: What are you basing this on?  And on another note, do we know if the elite/pleb difference is just the storage size or does the cross-character storage ability come with elite as well?

From what I know of, this WILL affect your SP gameplay as well. Less storage as well as no ability to trade items between your characters (without going online and getting a mule to hold it for you, anyway).

The impression I've gotten is that what Tim said is true.  No way to get your stuff to other characters other than mules or friends unless you subscribe. 

That's what I thought.  Ouch.  Just to make sure I've got my facts straight, did you have to buy the expansion to gain the shared storage space in Titan Quest, or did they patch it into the base game as well?
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« Reply #45 on: September 19, 2007, 08:02:39 PM »

Quote from: wonderpug on September 19, 2007, 07:47:14 PM

That's what I thought.  Ouch.  Just to make sure I've got my facts straight, did you have to buy the expansion to gain the shared storage space in Titan Quest, or did they patch it into the base game as well?

You had to buy the expansion.
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« Reply #46 on: September 19, 2007, 08:38:35 PM »

Okay, from what I'm reading, and I may be wrong, it's just 'offline' and 'online'.  It's not like D2 where it was 'offline', 'Open Battle.net' and 'Closed Battle.net'.  But yes, you can still play single-player online, but I'm not sure if they have locked games or whatever. 

-24/7 phone and internet support
Z: This affects single player, yes.  But, no where does it say that non-subscribers will not get ANY support.  It'll probably be business hours, et al.
W: Agreed.

- No (server) queues, with preference over non-paying customers
Z: Doesn't effect single-player (offline) at all
W: Agreed, but if there's a reason to play single player online, it would be an issue
Z:  True.  But, it's like Battle.net at that rate, when Diablo 2 was out.  There were (and are) queues on the servers. 

- 3 chars per account for non-elites, 12 for elite-customers
Z: Again.  Probably only affects online play.
W: What are you basing this on?  Have they said anything about how many slots you get off-line vs. on-line?
Z:  Not that I know of.  I'm primarily basing this one on common sense.  If I recall right, and I may be wrong, on Diablo 2 you had more slots offline than you had online.

- Storage for up to 40 items (instead of 20 for non-subscribers), which can be accessed from any char in an account-wide item vault.
Z: Also probably online, but could be wrong.
W: What are you basing this on?  And on another note, do we know if the elite/pleb difference is just the storage size or does the cross-character storage ability come with elite as well?
Z:  That was purely a guess on that one, and I said I could be wrong smile

- Visible distinction from other players. Elite subscribers are recognizable from their equipment and may trade subscriber-only equipment to other elite subscribers.
Z: Online, definitely.
W: If the visible distinction is "from their equipment," as they say, then it would affect your avatar customization choices in the single-player game, wouldn't it?
Z:  Debatable.  The guys who played on Nightmare online tended to look different than people who only played offline in Diablo 2.  Personally, my guess is that the Elite-only equipment is probably the higher-end stuff in the first place.

- VIP-Shuttles to remote areas
Z: Possibly affects single-player, but shouldn't be considered a deal breaker.
W: If it affects single player, the deal-breakerness would be open to interpretation, wouldn't it?  You wouldn't be grumpy if it took you an extra 5 minutes to get to North Haverbrook just because you elected not to pay $10 that month?
Z:  It's the car vs. public transportation analogy again.  If it's worth $10 a month to get quick travel to far-off areas, then great.  If not, that's /your choice/.  Remember, I'm buying the subscription anyway.  But if someone doesn't want to buy it, and cries because they can only go to 75% of the travel sites instead of 100%...that's their problem, IMO.  Again, though, I'm presuming that there's a free 1 month trial of Elite to let people see if it's worth it.

- Housing(?) and founding of guilds are enabled for subscribers. Elite subscribers may attain officer/leader privileges within their guild.
Z: Online only.  And as stated before, even Plebs can /join/ guilds.
W: I can see single-player people wanting to log online in order to have their own housing, even if they have no desire to group up with anyone
Z:  From everything I'm reading, the housing is Guild-based, not player-based.  I could be wrong.

- Access to additional game modes, including Hardcore mode.  (More modes were already mentioned during my interview with Bill)
Z: This...not so sure about.  If there's an offline Hardcore mode, then yeah, this affects SP.
W: I can't be the only one who rolled online Diablo 2 characters to get the tougher difficulty levels even though I always played single player.
Z:  Again, I specified that it may affect  SP smile

Did I miss an interview somewhere that explains what the divide is between the off-line and online modes is?  I could've sworn I remember hearing that you brought your same characters back and forth for both modes, but I could be mixing this up with another game.

Z:  I'm not sure on this one at all.
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« Reply #47 on: September 19, 2007, 08:45:37 PM »

Quote from: Zarkon on September 19, 2007, 08:38:35 PM


Z:  Debatable.  The guys who played on Nightmare online tended to look different than people who only played offline in Diablo 2.  Personally, my guess is that the Elite-only equipment is probably the higher-end stuff in the first place.

It's not a matter of "looking" different though, is it?  If there is Elite-specific gear then that implies that the gear will only be available to subcribers even for single-player only gamers. 

Quote
- VIP-Shuttles to remote areas
Z: Possibly affects single-player, but shouldn't be considered a deal breaker.
W: If it affects single player, the deal-breakerness would be open to interpretation, wouldn't it?  You wouldn't be grumpy if it took you an extra 5 minutes to get to North Haverbrook just because you elected not to pay $10 that month?
Z:  It's the car vs. public transportation analogy again.  If it's worth $10 a month to get quick travel to far-off areas, then great.  If not, that's /your choice/.  Remember, I'm buying the subscription anyway.  But if someone doesn't want to buy it, and cries because they can only go to 75% of the travel sites instead of 100%...that's their problem, IMO.  Again, though, I'm presuming that there's a free 1 month trial of Elite to let people see if it's worth it.

This is absurd.  Unlike the real world where factors like vehicle and gas costs, storing said vehicles, commute times, etc all play a role the choice of public transportation vs. vehicle, in a game it's just a switch.  I'm sure if you gave people the option to instantly teleport to their home or office with no other resources needed then almost everyone would do so.    Flagship using this is completely arbitrary. 

In Oblivion I can walk to a town across the map or fast travel there.  It's my choice but Bethesda doesn't charge me a fee for the option to do so.  Flagship, on the other hand, is charging a fee.  I can't believe anyone would defend this. 
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« Reply #48 on: September 19, 2007, 09:17:14 PM »

It's easy to defend.

It's their game.  You don't have to buy it.  You don't have a right to own it.  Once owning it, you don't have a right to any service they deem fit to offer.

Easy, isn't it?

Now, with all that being said?  If it proves too unpopular, who knows?  They might change that later down the line.  Personally, I don't see it being an issue.  I mean, c'mon.  Hellgate is basically a small-scale MMO.  They're going to give us upgraded content (they say), and I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.  Besides, i plan on paying $150 up front and the never have to worry about it agaiin.

Of course, it probably means I won't get Guitar Hero 3 or Rock Band until 2008, but hey.  That's a choice I have to make.
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« Reply #49 on: September 19, 2007, 09:32:06 PM »

Quote from: Zarkon on September 19, 2007, 09:17:14 PM

It's easy to defend.

It's their game.  You don't have to buy it.  You don't have a right to own it.  Once owning it, you don't have a right to any service they deem fit to offer.

Easy, isn't it?

Now, with all that being said?  If it proves too unpopular, who knows?  They might change that later down the line.  Personally, I don't see it being an issue.  I mean, c'mon.  Hellgate is basically a small-scale MMO.  They're going to give us upgraded content (they say), and I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.  Besides, i plan on paying $150 up front and the never have to worry about it agaiin.

Of course, it probably means I won't get Guitar Hero 3 or Rock Band until 2008, but hey.  That's a choice I have to make.

That means you're pretty sure its worth the cost right? I still wont say its a MMO in the traditional sense at all. They have encorporated "some" aspects of that, enough to warrant them asking for a monthly fee? I don't think so.


Gate...Open...Flood.....End of PC gaming as we know it........Potentially.
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« Reply #50 on: September 19, 2007, 09:44:26 PM »

Quote from: Arclight on September 19, 2007, 09:32:06 PM

Gate...Open...Flood.....End of PC gaming as we know it........Potentially.

H is for Hyperbole! icon_biggrin
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« Reply #51 on: September 19, 2007, 09:58:31 PM »

Quote from: Zarkon on September 19, 2007, 09:17:14 PM

It's easy to defend.

It's their game.  You don't have to buy it.  You don't have a right to own it.  Once owning it, you don't have a right to any service they deem fit to offer.

Easy, isn't it?


Do you work for Flagship?  Because while I know why they are doing it (to make money, duh), I can't understand why a gamer would defend it and offer up some form of real-world public transportation comparisons. 
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« Reply #52 on: September 19, 2007, 10:10:38 PM »

Um.  If I worked for Flagship, I wouldn't be staff here.

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« Reply #53 on: September 19, 2007, 10:12:04 PM »

Quote from: Arclight on September 19, 2007, 09:32:06 PM

Quote from: Zarkon on September 19, 2007, 09:17:14 PM

It's easy to defend.

It's their game.  You don't have to buy it.  You don't have a right to own it.  Once owning it, you don't have a right to any service they deem fit to offer.

Easy, isn't it?

Now, with all that being said?  If it proves too unpopular, who knows?  They might change that later down the line.  Personally, I don't see it being an issue.  I mean, c'mon.  Hellgate is basically a small-scale MMO.  They're going to give us upgraded content (they say), and I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.  Besides, i plan on paying $150 up front and the never have to worry about it agaiin.

Of course, it probably means I won't get Guitar Hero 3 or Rock Band until 2008, but hey.  That's a choice I have to make.

That means you're pretty sure its worth the cost right? I still wont say its a MMO in the traditional sense at all. They have encorporated "some" aspects of that, enough to warrant them asking for a monthly fee? I don't think so.


Gate...Open...Flood.....End of PC gaming as we know it........Potentially.

Right.  To me, it's worth the cost.  My basis for this is the performance of Diablo 2, given that the majority of the people involved in D2 are at Flagship.  Take a look at the Xfire stats for Diablo 2.  Last month, it was the #1 most-played non-MMO.
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« Reply #54 on: September 19, 2007, 10:37:17 PM »

We have some embargoes on content -

On September 27th at 6:00pm PT we can run a preview from A to B.
On October 4th at 6:00pm PT  we can run a preview from B to C.
On October 11th at 6:00pm PT  we can run a preview from C to D. 

I'm going to do my best to hit those dates and I'm also going to try to get some direct footage so you guys can see the game in action.   I'm going to do my best to answer all of your questions before you are faced with a hard decision that will cost money.  Now if I can just get my key...
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« Reply #55 on: September 19, 2007, 11:49:31 PM »

Quote
Now if I can just get my key...

Indeed sir Indeed
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« Reply #56 on: September 20, 2007, 02:23:51 AM »

Quote from: Zarkon on September 19, 2007, 10:12:04 PM

Quote from: Arclight on September 19, 2007, 09:32:06 PM

Quote from: Zarkon on September 19, 2007, 09:17:14 PM

It's easy to defend.

It's their game.  You don't have to buy it.  You don't have a right to own it.  Once owning it, you don't have a right to any service they deem fit to offer.

Easy, isn't it?

Now, with all that being said?  If it proves too unpopular, who knows?  They might change that later down the line.  Personally, I don't see it being an issue.  I mean, c'mon.  Hellgate is basically a small-scale MMO.  They're going to give us upgraded content (they say), and I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.  Besides, i plan on paying $150 up front and the never have to worry about it agaiin.

Of course, it probably means I won't get Guitar Hero 3 or Rock Band until 2008, but hey.  That's a choice I have to make.

That means you're pretty sure its worth the cost right? I still wont say its a MMO in the traditional sense at all. They have encorporated "some" aspects of that, enough to warrant them asking for a monthly fee? I don't think so.


Gate...Open...Flood.....End of PC gaming as we know it........Potentially.

Right.  To me, it's worth the cost.  My basis for this is the performance of Diablo 2, given that the majority of the people involved in D2 are at Flagship.  Take a look at the Xfire stats for Diablo 2.  Last month, it was the #1 most-played non-MMO.

If you think Hellgate is going to do even 1/10th of what Diablo 2 did, I think you are delusional. 
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« Reply #57 on: September 20, 2007, 06:24:49 AM »

And why do you say this?
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« Reply #58 on: September 20, 2007, 06:47:36 AM »

well if they took down the NDA I could say a lot more.

Personally 3 character slots could suck. It depends how much time you want to invest. I could see the 20 slots becoming an issue quickly, because with only 3 char slots you can't really mule like in D2. But honestly, depending on how much gear is 'OMG LEEET ONLY' they could be a non issue.

I probably can't say if the game is fun or not though Tongue
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« Reply #59 on: September 20, 2007, 01:09:50 PM »

I

Quote from: Zarkon on September 19, 2007, 09:17:14 PM

It's easy to defend.

It's their game.  You don't have to buy it.  You don't have a right to own it.  Once owning it, you don't have a right to any service they deem fit to offer.

Agreed.  In that vein, I won't be buying it.
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« Reply #60 on: September 20, 2007, 02:25:47 PM »

Quote from: jersoc on September 20, 2007, 06:47:36 AM

well if they took down the NDA I could say a lot more.

Personally 3 character slots could suck. It depends how much time you want to invest. I could see the 20 slots becoming an issue quickly, because with only 3 char slots you can't really mule like in D2. But honestly, depending on how much gear is 'OMG LEEET ONLY' they could be a non issue.

I probably can't say if the game is fun or not though Tongue

that's why we need to work out some secret code for relaying info about betas  icon_wink icon_biggrin icon_neutral ninja
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« Reply #61 on: September 20, 2007, 02:39:43 PM »

Quote from: Zarkon on September 20, 2007, 06:24:49 AM

And why do you say this?

Several things.  First off, these guys are not Blizzard no matter how much they want you to believe it, and I don't think their individual names will carry as much weight with the casual and overseas fans. 

But perhaps more importantly, the environment has changed.  Other than a few distinct titles, PC Gaming is not doing nearly as well as it was back then.  Hellgate is launching at the peak of three new console systems, whereas Diablo 2 hit the market at the end of a console cycle before the PS2 had even been released here.  Diablo 2 launched in June with basically no competition, these guys are coming right in the middle of a 3-way console shitstorm with some hugely anticipated games like Halo 3, Mass Effect, Ratchet & Clank, Mario Galaxy, etc.

Personally I don't think the game has the more universal visual appeal of Diablo, and it requires a higher end system to run it looking decent. 

Then there is the fact that you can look at the general feeling towards this game and even hardcore gamers are not that excited for it.  Their pricing structure has obviously not gone over well and is leaving some gamers feeling like they won't be getting the full game unless they pony up an extra $10 a month. 

I will be happy to eat my hat if this game is as successful as Diablo, but I just don't see it happening. 
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« Reply #62 on: September 20, 2007, 02:47:21 PM »

I agree with everything EngineNo9 said.  I think Hellgate might do well in the current PC market but that's a much weaker market than seven years ago.  I don't think Hellgate carries the name recognition that Blizzard does, the artstyle isn't as immediately engaging as Blizzard's work, and it seems much more system intensive than Blizzard games. 
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« Reply #63 on: September 20, 2007, 03:16:42 PM »

maybe they should delay the game until next June....
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« Reply #64 on: September 20, 2007, 03:29:40 PM »

I'm incredibly excited about Hellgate, one of my most anticipated titles in recent years and the pricing issue doesn't bother me at all, but even I recognize that the game is almost certainly not going to sell near as well as Diablo 2 did, for all the same reasons EngineNo9 stated.

I know I'll enjoy the game, and I'm hoping I love it even more than Diablo 2, but I doubt it'll be near as successful.

Now GIMME MY $#@& BETA INVITE, FLAGSHIP! icon_biggrin
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« Reply #65 on: September 20, 2007, 03:33:00 PM »

I've always thought they were barking up the wrong tree.  Diablo 2 would have been nowhere near as successful if it would have had a monthly fee.  Same thing with (damn, the name escapes me.  D2 type game, has a zillion expansions, but no monthy fee, ex-blizzard guys): it's doing ok, but it would have flopped with a monthly fee.

People hate monthly fees, and will only pay them for certain types of games.
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« Reply #66 on: September 20, 2007, 03:33:48 PM »

Quote from: unbreakable on September 20, 2007, 03:33:00 PM

I've always thought they were barking up the wrong tree.  Diablo 2 would have been nowhere near as successful if it would have had a monthly fee.  Same thing with (damn, the name escapes me.  D2 type game, has a zillion expansions, but no monthy fee, ex-blizzard guys): it's doing ok, but it would have flopped with a monthly fee.

Guild Wars?
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« Reply #67 on: September 20, 2007, 03:34:26 PM »

Shouldn't this thread be in the, Massive Multiplayer Game forum?

After all people are justifying the monthly cost of this game by saying it's a MMO>>Just saying...
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« Reply #68 on: September 20, 2007, 03:43:11 PM »

Quote from: CeeKay on September 20, 2007, 03:33:48 PM

Quote from: unbreakable on September 20, 2007, 03:33:00 PM

I've always thought they were barking up the wrong tree.  Diablo 2 would have been nowhere near as successful if it would have had a monthly fee.  Same thing with (damn, the name escapes me.  D2 type game, has a zillion expansions, but no monthy fee, ex-blizzard guys): it's doing ok, but it would have flopped with a monthly fee.

Guild Wars?

Yeah, thanks.  My brain shut down a few hours earlier than usual today.
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« Reply #69 on: September 20, 2007, 04:31:14 PM »

I'm out! I'm not supporting this type of game, better nip this trend in the bud. Think it's a crucial point if Hellgate successful then we will be seeing quite a few more games using the same buisness model, and that isn't a good thing.
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« Reply #70 on: September 20, 2007, 05:20:52 PM »

Hellgate is no more a MMO than Diablo 2 was.
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« Reply #71 on: September 20, 2007, 05:47:32 PM »

Didn't we go over the MMO/not-MMO thing on page 1? ninja
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« Reply #72 on: September 20, 2007, 05:49:06 PM »

Quote from: Farscry on September 20, 2007, 05:47:32 PM

Didn't we go over the MMO/not-MMO thing on page 1? ninja

We should start charging people if they want to talk about the MMO/non-MMO tangent...
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« Reply #73 on: September 20, 2007, 06:25:34 PM »

Quote from: Kevin Grey on September 20, 2007, 02:47:21 PM

I agree with everything EngineNo9 said.  I think Hellgate might do well in the current PC market but that's a much weaker market than seven years ago.  I don't think Hellgate carries the name recognition that Blizzard does, the artstyle isn't as immediately engaging as Blizzard's work, and it seems much more system intensive than Blizzard games. 

This has been my supposition all along as well.
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« Reply #74 on: September 20, 2007, 06:33:30 PM »

The thing that I think hurts Hellgate the most is that nobody has really gotten hands-on with it.  There is lots of anticipation but nobody has really gotten their teeth into it.  That'll all change shortly, but too many things are up in the air.  They admit that they really don't know what they are going to do with the subscription stuff.  They have good ideas, but I figured it'd be in concrete by now...
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« Reply #75 on: September 20, 2007, 07:12:50 PM »

Quote from: Knightshade Dragon on September 20, 2007, 06:33:30 PM

The thing that I think hurts Hellgate the most is that nobody has really gotten hands-on with it.
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« Reply #76 on: September 21, 2007, 01:03:36 AM »

Quote from: coopasonic on September 20, 2007, 07:12:50 PM

Quote from: Knightshade Dragon on September 20, 2007, 06:33:30 PM

The thing that I think hurts Hellgate the most is that nobody has really gotten hands-on with it.
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« Reply #77 on: September 21, 2007, 02:35:39 AM »

Quote from: Knightshade Dragon on September 20, 2007, 06:33:30 PM

The thing that I think hurts Hellgate the most is that nobody has really gotten hands-on with it.  There is lots of anticipation but nobody has really gotten their teeth into it.  That'll all change shortly, but too many things are up in the air.  They admit that they really don't know what they are going to do with the subscription stuff.  They have good ideas, but I figured it'd be in concrete by now...

They really need to do an online demo of their game if they hope to succeed with this fee.
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« Reply #78 on: September 21, 2007, 03:28:19 AM »

 ninja
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« Reply #79 on: September 21, 2007, 03:46:37 AM »

 ninja

*checks e-mail again*

 crybaby
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