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Author Topic: Diablo III --Impressions start on page 36 --  (Read 94844 times)
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The Grue
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« Reply #2800 on: September 06, 2014, 12:11:01 AM »

Quote from: leo8877 on September 05, 2014, 04:35:24 PM

Hot damn this game, I have 3 level 70s and one more who is close!

Well, crap...I guess I better get busy just getting one level 70.
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« Reply #2801 on: September 07, 2014, 05:18:10 AM »

Is there a way to go back and see whose nemesis we beat?  I heard the sound and saw the portal, but I missed the message.  Oh, and Razgon has a gift inbound.
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« Reply #2802 on: September 07, 2014, 06:27:47 AM »

You get a gift for the last character the nemesis defeated, so it sounds like it was Razgon's nemesis you beat.
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« Reply #2803 on: September 07, 2014, 11:53:02 AM »

I found a Mirrorball for my wizard and have been able to push my DPS almost to 700k, which allowed me to comfortably push my way into Torment 2. The second Rift level I played after doing that had me encounter the Last of Us clickers for the first time, and it was horrible! Those bloaters are dangerous! Even fighting the regular ones required me to keep moving around to avoid their spore clouds, for they did huge amounts of damage if I stayed in them. Fighting elite bloaters was hell.

By the way, I haven't exactly seen many legendaries in the mail, or even nemeses, since the first few days after launch. I keep sending these off to others (not the nemeses though), but almost never get any in return. Are people not playing the game any more?
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« Reply #2804 on: September 07, 2014, 12:30:20 PM »

These types of comments confuse me since I was doing T3 at 350k and now that I'm nearing 450k T4 is pretty easy.
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« Reply #2805 on: September 07, 2014, 12:34:39 PM »

What class? I'm a wizard, and they're not all that viable for higher Torment levels before patch 2.1, mostly due to survivability. I can't stand toe-to-toe with most enemies.

Also, I expect to play through rifts and bounties at a certain speed. Once you spend too much time on each group of enemies, you're essentially wasting time and effort.
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« Reply #2806 on: September 07, 2014, 01:13:52 PM »

My Wiz is at 216k dps and does Torment 2 at a fine pace imo, breezes through T1

my previous reference is to my seasonal crusader
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« Reply #2807 on: September 07, 2014, 01:17:21 PM »

Well, you clearly have different expectations of speed than I do then. Even Master was slow when I was at 250k DPS, and Torment 1 was unbearable. Torment 2 at barely 200k would have been pure torture.

If you find that kind of thing fun, then all the more power to you. I suspect my method of play is far more effective in terms of XP and loot though, since I can plow through a rift in 15 minutes or less most of the time.
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« Reply #2808 on: September 07, 2014, 01:41:56 PM »

Wait, you don't happen to be talking about multiplayer, do you? That would explain the difference in experiences, as multiplayer is considered far easier than singleplayer in this game. The game is balanced towards the latter, not the former.
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« Reply #2809 on: September 07, 2014, 02:04:50 PM »

There are more factors than sheet DPS.  My Crusader's sheet DPS is only ~450k.  She can do T6 runs but for speed sticks to T5.  Her primary attack crits for 10M and her secondary crits for 35M and she can use it essentially nonstop.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Forge-1255/hero/43773541
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« Reply #2810 on: September 07, 2014, 05:07:56 PM »

I'm talking single player, and I can do rifts in under 15 minutes easily on that character as well.  Not sure what the disconnect is.
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« Reply #2811 on: September 07, 2014, 06:15:29 PM »

Well, you've got to post your build or something. From what I know of the game, I have to apologize for seeing myself forced to call bullshit on your statement that you can do a Torment 2 Rift in 15 minutes with a 215k DPS wizard. Even Mirrorball and similar equipment won't let you do that. Most of my relevant equipment is triumvirate, I have tons of critical chance and critical damage, I use Mirrorball and 3 different item sets with bonuses at or near max payoff thanks to my Royal Ring of Grandeur (including a total of +25% damage to elites and similarly reduced damage from), skill bonuses to my relevant skills and damage types, and yet I use 15+ minutes at Torment 2 with my near 700k DPS.
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Harkonis
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« Reply #2812 on: September 07, 2014, 08:25:54 PM »

Tried once, died more than I usually did.  Haven't played Wiz in a long while and not sure on these new changes.  Took me about 22 minutes even with several deaths and without the ability that used to make it feel 'easy'.  (arcane torrent used to debuff them 30% to arcane damage, was removed in latest patch I guess)

Video of 22 min attempt

I have no doubts that with minor tweaks in my passives I could make this down to the 15 minute range once I've re-learned how to play a wiz.  I typically play monk and crusader.  On Torment 1 I beat the 15 minute time.
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« Reply #2813 on: September 07, 2014, 08:27:43 PM »

Have to go eat dinner and watch a movie with the gf, I'll see what I can do afterwards.  I still think your numbers are WAY off though, 750k should be able to sneeze and be done with T2 and could likely do T4-5 quickly enough as long as your toughness is also ok.
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« Reply #2814 on: September 07, 2014, 08:34:34 PM »

Wait, was Tilt a plant this whole time just trying to fake egg Hark into posting a video to his Twitch channel?  Tongue
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« Reply #2815 on: September 07, 2014, 08:39:30 PM »

www.harkonis.com  ninja

don't need a reason  icon_twisted
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Hrothgar
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« Reply #2816 on: September 08, 2014, 04:03:57 AM »

Are PS4 and PC numerically the same?  I thought they were just matched as far as features not actual balance.
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TiLT
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« Reply #2817 on: September 08, 2014, 04:38:33 AM »

Quote from: Harkonis on September 07, 2014, 08:25:54 PM

Tried once, died more than I usually did.  Haven't played Wiz in a long while and not sure on these new changes.  Took me about 22 minutes even with several deaths and without the ability that used to make it feel 'easy'.  (arcane torrent used to debuff them 30% to arcane damage, was removed in latest patch I guess)

Video of 22 min attempt

I have no doubts that with minor tweaks in my passives I could make this down to the 15 minute range once I've re-learned how to play a wiz.  I typically play monk and crusader.  On Torment 1 I beat the 15 minute time.

Thanks, man! While I still am very curious about your build, it's easier to see what's going on. One important detail is that you're playing on PC, which I wasn't aware of. The PC version has been updated to patch version 2.1, which most likely has doubled your damage output (wizards got some serious buffs) and improved your survivability without reflecting either on your character sheet. That actually makes all the difference. When I was struggling to fight my way up from Master to Torment 1 at 250k DPS, I was frustrated with the thought that if only 2.1 had been released on PS4 at the same time as PC, it wouldn't have been a struggle at all.

Your wizard would probably have spent an hour or more dealing with that rift on console, and he might not even have been able to do it.

I'm very fascinated by your skill choices, btw. You've sacrificed mobility for damage and crowd control, which also helps explain some of your damage output. From what I understand, that kind of build isn't very viable after around Torment 3, though 2.1 might have changed that. My build is focused on pure damage output, including buffs that help bring my DPS up from its base values, and I cut down monster much faster than you. It might be my rift playthrough time is off. I'll measure it tonight, as I've been merely guesstimating.
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« Reply #2818 on: September 08, 2014, 05:01:56 AM »

fwiw, things went faster before this patch.  This was my first try post-patch.  As I mentioned, pre-patch I had the arcane torrent that debuffed 30% after the first hit.  Basically Blackhole then spam Arcane Torrent would melt anything.  It's actually slower now, though once I have legendary gems all around I'm sure it'll be fine.

Otherwise the console to PC differences are still there though, you have less things to fight on console at a time so AoE builds do better on PC and single target probably a bit better on console as far as filling rift meter.

My damage AND toughness go up the longer I stay still, which works combined with the CC.  From what I've read even T6 is doable if you combine 2 of the 3 key concepts which are mobility, toughness and CC.  Mine is Tough and CC.  Typically I run with mobility though. 
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« Reply #2819 on: September 08, 2014, 05:12:30 AM »

Quote from: Harkonis on September 08, 2014, 05:01:56 AM

Otherwise the console to PC differences are still there though, you have less things to fight on console at a time so AoE builds do better on PC and single target probably a bit better on console as far as filling rift meter.

This isn't true. There is no difference between the PS4 and the PC in terms of monster density. That was only an issue with the last-generation consoles.

Oh shit, one incredibly important fact I just remembered: Rift times have been dramatically altered with patch 2.1 too. You get extra credit towards the progress bar whenever you defeat a tough regular monster or an elite. On my version I get the same amount of progress no matter what I defeat, so if I encounter a long string of elite groups, my rift progress will be considerably hampered, whereas for you it will be roughly the same no matter what you come across.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2014, 05:14:07 AM by TiLT » Logged
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« Reply #2820 on: September 08, 2014, 05:29:24 AM »

that's only true in greater rifts (where the purple bonus orbs drop) not regular rifts which is what I ran to test.   Not sure why it's so hard for you to believe I did it just fine before and can almost do it now with a less focused build.  

You seem to keep trying hard to dig for possible excuses, but I really think you might just not be playing optimally.  Wish I could afford the $60 for the XB1 version so I could show you it will work there too, but then you'd probably say it's because I'm not on the PS4 version.  Not sure what more I can do.  My build lost killing time, and I still do it faster than you thought, it's right there.  

edit: btw, I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm just confused why it's hard to admit something might be possible even though you can't do it. I will admit that on my wiz, the dps is much more suited for T1 and it's more reliable there.  However once I'm at 300k+ I'll feel fine moving on up to T2 regularly.  I'd KILL for any of my characters to have 750k on the sheet, but they do fine up to T4 as it is at much lower.
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« Reply #2821 on: September 08, 2014, 06:50:30 PM »

Quote from: Harkonis on September 08, 2014, 05:29:24 AM

that's only true in greater rifts (where the purple bonus orbs drop) not regular rifts which is what I ran to test.

It's actually true in all rifts, both greater and lesser, and was done to reduce the impact of the RNG when it came to time spent doing these things. It's a sensible change, one that I'm eagerly looking forward to on PS4. The progress is now tied to total enemy health instead of the number of enemies you defeat, which would have helped a lot with especially one of the two I did today.

Quote
Not sure why it's so hard for you to believe I did it just fine before and can almost do it now with a less focused build.

I believe you. I just don't understand why this difference in experiences is happening. From the brief look at your inventory, it didn't look like you had anything really special in that regard either, so chalk all of this up to me being utterly confused.

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You seem to keep trying hard to dig for possible excuses

Explanations really, not excuses. But yeah, I am trying hard to figure it out. Imagine how I feel when I come here, proud about my latest achievements in the game, only to be met with Topper from Dilbert. slywink

Anyway, I did two test runs right now with two separate rifts. I tried to record both, but the PS4 cut off the first at the 15 minute mark, so I don't know exactly how long it took.

The first run was at Torment 3 simply because I felt it would provide me a killing speed more comparable to what you showed me in your video. I quickly realized that this was the ideal level for my wizard to play on right now, as it was more than doable. I didn't die, but I came close a few times and was probably only saved by the passive ability that saves you from the brink of death once per minute and shoves enemies away. It still took a lot of time, despite trying my hardest to complete it quickly. Took me somewhere between 25 and 30 minutes in my estimation. This is where the change to progress in patch 2.1 comes in, as I believe my killing speed was very comparable with what you demonstrated at Torment 2. Our speeds would probably have been similar with me at Torment 3 and you at Torment 2 in patch 2.1. Do note that I was very unlucky with this particular rift run, meeting elites at pretty much every corner. It's rare for me to see this many elites in rifts, so go figure. That really slowed me down.

My second run was on Torment 2, where I slaughtered my way through in 14 minutes, going as fast as I could. I've got that one recorded in its entirety, and will post it on YouTube in a little while so we can compare peni... I mean, rift run efficiency. Tongue It was a simpler rift, which allowed me to keep Nephalem Glory for most of the duration, including the fight against the Rift Guardian. I scrolled through my inventory so you can see what I have. Nothing truly remarkable, but decent enough. You'll see that I kill enemies quite a bit faster than you did at this difficulty, so I guess that's something.

What have I learned from all of this? Fuck if I know. I'm still not sure if you're simply awesome at the game (based on what I know about you, you probably are regardless), if there are fundamental differences between certain aspects of the console and PC versions beyond patch 2.1, or if I simply suck. I've double-checked my build against recommended ones (I usually don't do this as I enjoy trying to come up with my own) and it was pretty close to what I saw there. It does look like Arcane Torrent builds are more common than Mirrorball builds, but in my experience Arcane Torrent is very hard to aim at consoles compared to pointing and clicking with the mouse. I tried it at lower levels and quickly gave it up as I had no idea which monsters I was shooting at.
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« Reply #2822 on: September 08, 2014, 07:15:26 PM »

I got my wizard to 70 last night, and was surprised how hardy he was leveling compared to my DH and Barbarian.  Wizard's have a lot of defensive runes and passives that really make him tough to kill.  They even have a passive that rewards them for face tanking standing still.  It's a really interesting mix of offensive and defensive choices.  I rarely ever felt like he was in trouble (on expert). 

In terms of overall offensive and defensive strength, this is how I would rank the classes I've taken to 70:
1.  Crusader 
2.  Wizard
3.  DH
4.  Barbarian

I think my experiences with the Barbarian were in large part due to me playing him more reckless than the other classes.  I also didn't start using more defensive runes and passives for him until much later in the game (around levels 60-70).  With that said, each class has some obvious strengths: 
- The Crusader and Wizard feel powerful and hard to kill, with both having decent to great single target and aoe options
- The DH is a good elite/boss killer. Lots of upside skill potential depending on the player (not me)           
- I had a blast leveling the Barbarian, but I got him killed a lot along the way.  Jumping into the middle of the fray is not always wise, but it's fun!
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« Reply #2823 on: September 08, 2014, 07:18:23 PM »

According to veteran D3 players, the wizard class is considered bottom tier along with the monk before patch 2.1, though this kind of ranking doesn't mean much until the higher Torment levels apparently.

I myself haven't got much to compare with yet as I tend to stick with one class. I've got my wizard on PS4, and monk on PC. It's so typical of me to choose the worst ranked classes/characters in games. Tongue
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« Reply #2824 on: September 08, 2014, 07:23:16 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on September 08, 2014, 07:18:23 PM

According to veteran D3 players, the wizard class is considered bottom tier along with the monk before patch 2.1, though this kind of ranking doesn't mean much until the higher Torment levels apparently.

I myself haven't got much to compare with yet as I tend to stick with one class. I've got my wizard on PS4, and monk on PC. It's so typical of me to choose the worst ranked classes/characters in games. Tongue

Wizards once upon a time were the most powerful class by far. I wonder when that changed, at one point if you weren't playing a wizard you'd get kicked out of pub games. 
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« Reply #2825 on: September 08, 2014, 07:29:07 PM »

Quote from: forgeforsaken on September 08, 2014, 07:23:16 PM

Quote from: TiLT on September 08, 2014, 07:18:23 PM

According to veteran D3 players, the wizard class is considered bottom tier along with the monk before patch 2.1, though this kind of ranking doesn't mean much until the higher Torment levels apparently.

I myself haven't got much to compare with yet as I tend to stick with one class. I've got my wizard on PS4, and monk on PC. It's so typical of me to choose the worst ranked classes/characters in games. Tongue

Wizards once upon a time were the most powerful class by far. I wonder when that changed, at one point if you weren't playing a wizard you'd get kicked out of pub games. 

It probably changed with 2.0. I don't remember anything about class balance before that.
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« Reply #2826 on: September 08, 2014, 08:21:50 PM »

Here's the YouTube video showing off my Torment 2 run that I was talking about above.
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« Reply #2827 on: September 08, 2014, 11:57:00 PM »

It's hard for me to place a value on the criticisms about the classes because the people complaining seem to be talking about high level Torment performance, which is something I probably will never play.  From my point of view, Wizard is a strong class through Master.  I haven't tried Torment 1 yet.  Normally mage type classes are glass cannons, but the Wizard has good defensive skills, runes and passives.     
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« Reply #2828 on: September 10, 2014, 05:39:42 PM »

This is probably worth bringing up again for all the new folks and is a good reminder, distances in this game make no sense

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« Reply #2829 on: September 10, 2014, 09:29:17 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on September 08, 2014, 06:50:30 PM

Quote from: Harkonis on September 08, 2014, 05:29:24 AM

that's only true in greater rifts (where the purple bonus orbs drop) not regular rifts which is what I ran to test.

It's actually true in all rifts, both greater and lesser, and was done to reduce the impact of the RNG when it came to time spent doing these things. It's a sensible change, one that I'm eagerly looking forward to on PS4. The progress is now tied to total enemy health instead of the number of enemies you defeat, which would have helped a lot with especially one of the two I did today.

Quote
Not sure why it's so hard for you to believe I did it just fine before and can almost do it now with a less focused build.

I believe you. I just don't understand why this difference in experiences is happening. From the brief look at your inventory, it didn't look like you had anything really special in that regard either, so chalk all of this up to me being utterly confused.

Quote
You seem to keep trying hard to dig for possible excuses

Explanations really, not excuses. But yeah, I am trying hard to figure it out. Imagine how I feel when I come here, proud about my latest achievements in the game, only to be met with Topper from Dilbert. slywink

Anyway, I did two test runs right now with two separate rifts. I tried to record both, but the PS4 cut off the first at the 15 minute mark, so I don't know exactly how long it took.

The first run was at Torment 3 simply because I felt it would provide me a killing speed more comparable to what you showed me in your video. I quickly realized that this was the ideal level for my wizard to play on right now, as it was more than doable. I didn't die, but I came close a few times and was probably only saved by the passive ability that saves you from the brink of death once per minute and shoves enemies away. It still took a lot of time, despite trying my hardest to complete it quickly. Took me somewhere between 25 and 30 minutes in my estimation. This is where the change to progress in patch 2.1 comes in, as I believe my killing speed was very comparable with what you demonstrated at Torment 2. Our speeds would probably have been similar with me at Torment 3 and you at Torment 2 in patch 2.1. Do note that I was very unlucky with this particular rift run, meeting elites at pretty much every corner. It's rare for me to see this many elites in rifts, so go figure. That really slowed me down.

My second run was on Torment 2, where I slaughtered my way through in 14 minutes, going as fast as I could. I've got that one recorded in its entirety, and will post it on YouTube in a little while so we can compare peni... I mean, rift run efficiency. Tongue It was a simpler rift, which allowed me to keep Nephalem Glory for most of the duration, including the fight against the Rift Guardian. I scrolled through my inventory so you can see what I have. Nothing truly remarkable, but decent enough. You'll see that I kill enemies quite a bit faster than you did at this difficulty, so I guess that's something.

What have I learned from all of this? Fuck if I know. I'm still not sure if you're simply awesome at the game (based on what I know about you, you probably are regardless), if there are fundamental differences between certain aspects of the console and PC versions beyond patch 2.1, or if I simply suck. I've double-checked my build against recommended ones (I usually don't do this as I enjoy trying to come up with my own) and it was pretty close to what I saw there. It does look like Arcane Torrent builds are more common than Mirrorball builds, but in my experience Arcane Torrent is very hard to aim at consoles compared to pointing and clicking with the mouse. I tried it at lower levels and quickly gave it up as I had no idea which monsters I was shooting at.

You completely missed what I said in the first quote, when you repeated what I corrected in the bottom bolded section.  Regular rift progress isn't sped up in the new patch, just greater rifts.  Can't have a discussion with someone if they can quote you and still not read what you said. frown
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« Reply #2830 on: September 11, 2014, 04:21:25 AM »

Quote from: Harkonis on September 10, 2014, 09:29:17 PM

You completely missed what I said in the first quote, when you repeated what I corrected in the bottom bolded section.  Regular rift progress isn't sped up in the new patch, just greater rifts.  Can't have a discussion with someone if they can quote you and still not read what you said. frown

I didn't miss it. In fact, I corrected it at the top of the post you quoted. I actually checked my facts before posting that too, just in case I was mistaken. The change was made to all rifts, not just greater like you claim.
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