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Author Topic: Five things that irritate me about console gaming  (Read 3029 times)
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Rob_Merritt
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« on: February 04, 2005, 02:41:27 PM »

I've been playing a lot of console games lately and there are several new trends that are driving me up the walls.  I'm not a stranger to consoles but I've been on a semi vaction from them since my beloved Dreamcast went to the grave. These are pretty much all aimed at the Xbox though I imagine most apply to other systems as well.

1. Combo's for everything. Sure, I understand combs for fighters. In fact, remembering the pattern and timing of button combinations are the heart of fighter game play and I'm cool with that. Its one of the reasons why I don't play fighters but I'm not going to protest. However it seems EVERY game wants you to do combos these days. Its really dragging down my enjoyment of Xmen Legends.

2. Dual analog sticks in third person games. I remember that third person action games didn't use to be so hard when we just used one analog stick or the dpad. Aiming is an extreme chore and drains the fun right out of games of the genre.

3. Forward - back - strafe? This sort of goes with number 2. In third person games, game developers almost always put strafing controls with the forward and backwards motion. I think having forward, back, and turn left or right controls as one stick makes far more sense. Its like steering then. Simple things like Doors get me very angry. I moving forward and then I slightly strafe and hit the wall and start sliding around.

4. Save points on Xbox. Why? It has a hard drive, use it. So what if their big, I'm not using it for anything but saved games. I played one game in two years on my Xbox, Knights of the Old Republic and it allowed me to save were I want. Why is this such a problem?

5. Bonuses if you finish the game. Why would I want extra costumes or characters if I finish a game. I already finished it, what good is it to me?
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« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2005, 02:53:45 PM »

Quote


1. Combo's for everything. Sure, I understand combs for fighters. In fact, remembering the pattern and timing of button combinations are the heart of fighter game play and I'm cool with that. Its one of the reasons why I don't play fighters but I'm not going to protest. However it seems EVERY game wants you to do combos these days. Its really dragging down my enjoyment of Xmen Legends.


Eh. I can see where you're coming from. But I think if combos are fluidly implemented (like Ninja Gaiden) they add to the enjoyment because it ups the skill factor.  Combo use in Gladius was implemented outstandingly well...though I guess that wasn't a 'true' combo system...

Quote

2. Dual analog sticks in third person games. I remember that third person action games didn't use to be so hard when we just used one analog stick or the dpad. Aiming is an extreme chore and drains the fun right out of games of the genre.


Agreed.  I much prefer the D-pad, but have gotten used to the 2nd analog stick.  I would love it if the dpad was the main control and the analog stick was the 2ndary menu/task instrument.

Quote
3. Forward - back - strafe? This sort of goes with number 2. In third person games, game developers almost always put strafing controls with the forward and backwards motion. I think having forward, back, and turn left or right controls as one stick makes far more sense. Its like steering then. Simple things like Doors get me very angry. I moving forward and then I slightly strafe and hit the wall and start sliding around.


I disagree.  Back in the PC days hitting a separate button to strafe sucked.

Quote
4. Save points on Xbox. Why? It has a hard drive, use it. So what if their big, I'm not using it for anything but saved games. I played one game in two years on my Xbox, Knights of the Old Republic and it allowed me to save were I want. Why is this such a problem?


I'm with ya.  Though I used so many save points in KOTOR2 (170+ each about 1600 blocks) that I almost ran out of HD space!

Quote
5. Bonuses if you finish the game. Why would I want extra costumes or characters if I finish a game. I already finished it, what good is it to me?


I love the bonuses.  It's like getting a dvd with extra content.  The added features are a reward of sorts and the more the better.  I haven't completed Ninja Gaiden the second time through, but it was pretty awesome to start over with a new sword.
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farley2k
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« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2005, 04:00:38 PM »

Quote from: "ATB"
Quote


Quote
5. Bonuses if you finish the game. Why would I want extra costumes or characters if I finish a game. I already finished it, what good is it to me?


I love the bonuses.  It's like getting a dvd with extra content.  The added features are a reward of sorts and the more the better.  I haven't completed Ninja Gaiden the second time through, but it was pretty awesome to start over with a new sword.



I don't feel like it is.  

I remember finishing both Onimusha 2, and Zelda: The Wind Waker and for special content I got a whopping new outfit!  Same dialogue, same monsters, same everything except I looked diffferent.   That is just pointless.  

Most other "unlockable" content has seemed similarly pointless.  Like Zelda: The Minish Cap.  If you do all this stuff right and finish the game twice you get a mirror shield!  So what!  I have already beat the game two times.  Am I really going to play again to see how cool the mirror shield is?  Yeah right!  Give me a freaking unlockable where I don't have to see the silly messages each time get a small key!  That would be something.  smile
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mytocles
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« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2005, 04:25:50 PM »

the games i like the best are the ones you can customize the most.  why doesn't every game give you the option to invert controls, and modes of difficulty?  probably some reason i don't get - or one i do, like they want to make more of our 50 bucks for themselves, so cost-cutting gets involved.  and why doesn't every game list these features on the box, including info on save features?  even most gaming magazines don't mention it in their reviews!

I agree, big time, on the save feature.  how many times have you had to pause a game (if there is a pause feature!) to answer the phone, then end up having to go to work or whatever and lost all your progress.  it's stupid.  just like not being able to hit pause in a cut scene...

the only thing i differ on is that i love the dual analog sticks - as long as i can invert the up/ down camera.  if every game had Halo controls, i'd be in gaming heaven.  i can't stand not being able to look around at all times.  i play the Dreamcast too, but many of the games have controls i don't like.  exceptions are games like Legacy of Kain, Soul Reaver - the "steering" works better than most in letting you see your surroundings.  and you never look up or down so inverting isn't an issue.  some others are just too "painful" to play.

i have to agree on the unlockable thing - why do they wait until the end (i can understand in fighting games, don't people replay those a lot?)   There are probably about two games i've played through more than once - Halo 1 and (XB) Morrowind - oh, and the original 8-bit Zelda.  Any other games that you had to finish to unlock stuff, i never found out - except for LOTR Return of the King.  I unlocked the extra levels, just didn't go very far with them.  Too much button-mashing after all the previous mashing done to finish the game itself.  that one was actually painful to play.  Like Crimson Sea - i loved it, but i wouldn't play it again!

here's another, smaller gripe - if you're a really good player so that you can get Perfect ratings on games like Two Towers and Crimson Sea, then you aren't the one who needs the upgrades you get for doing it!  the poorer player who has to replay the level a zillion times is the one who needs the upgrades.  the only game i've ever seen that took that into account is Crimson Sea.  i can't remember exactly, but it was something like, if you failed four times on a level, it gave you an option to play the game on an easier setting.  talk about an unlockable that makes sense!

almost got on a rant there...  great topic,  Farley2K!
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« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2005, 05:54:00 PM »

I like forward back strafe on 1 stick and up down left right on another.

This way its similar to FPS control on a pc to me.

The forward back strafe stick is like WASD keys while the other stick is like my mouse controlling up down left and right.

I would like it if the controls could all be modified by the user.

I'm just not getting comfortable with targetting with a gamepad though. Never played many FPS on a console until recently.
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semiconscious
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« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2005, 06:06:19 PM »

Quote
2. Dual analog sticks in third person games. I remember that third person action games didn't use to be so hard when we just used one analog stick or the dpad. Aiming is an extreme chore and drains the fun right out of games of the genre.


amen...
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« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2005, 06:18:27 PM »

Perhaps my biggest gripe is with the packaging. Have you ever been at a rental store trying to find a game for the weekend to play with some friends, and you look on the back of the Xbox game and it says 4 players, but it means 4 players with system link? Talk about crap, they need to specify if it is 4 players on screen, 4 players on live or system link. I hate that about some games. Ghost recon is a good example. I rented it thinking I could have 4 players on my xbox, nope just two, and only one for each xbox in multiplayer. Crap I tellyou!

About saves, yes, saving anywhere is nice. And an even better feature is quicksave. Oddword: Stranger implemented that perfectly. I loved being able to save anywhere. It was so nice, and quick save was really quick, and I could keep playing while it saved!

My gripe about console game does go with unlockables as well. Ever tried unlocking everything in Mario Kart Double Dash? Holy crap is that impossible. You have to play forever to unlock everything. Some people must have no lives to unlock everything on every game.

And for a gripe more about a system, the PSone has the crappiest layout on the machine. The memory card right on top of the controller port? Thats crap. And it bugs me to no end. Anyways, lots to gripe about, but I love console gaming.

In terms of the dual analog sticks, I wont play older console games which dont have two sticks. I have a dreamcast with some games like that, and without the second stick, they are terrible to control.
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Dimmona
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« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2005, 06:48:40 PM »

My biggest gripe:

The fact that you still can't save mid-game in the majority of sports games out there today.  Wth?  I don't always have 30min to play an entire game of football/hockey/basketball/whatever - it would be nice to quit and anytime and pick the game back up where I left off later...
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Jumangi
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« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2005, 07:15:56 PM »

Quote from: "Rob_Merritt"


2. Dual analog sticks in third person games. I remember that third person action games didn't use to be so hard when we just used one analog stick or the dpad. Aiming is an extreme chore and drains the fun right out of games of the genre.

3. Forward - back - strafe? This sort of goes with number 2. In third person games, game developers almost always put strafing controls with the forward and backwards motion. I think having forward, back, and turn left or right controls as one stick makes far more sense. Its like steering then. Simple things like Doors get me very angry. I moving forward and then I slightly strafe and hit the wall and start sliding around.



Don't know why you would complain about this as its the closest equivelent to a PC gaming setup with a mouse/keyboard.

I'll personally take the keyboard/mouse anyday for a game if I could but the dual analog stick setup is the closest there is for a gamepad. I've been a PC games for most of my life but don't find using the dual sticks hard.

I'll always agree about the checkpoint save system. It just sucks, its outdated and there is no reason to have it anymore. Even on a system that uses memmory cards. Simply let people save when they want. Period. I actually got frustrated playing GR2 n the Xbox initially because I couldn't believe I wasn't making it to at least the first save point ever in a map. Then I realized the game lets you save when you want. What a console game without a checkpoint system? Hell is freezing over...
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« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2005, 11:24:02 PM »

I was playing Phantasy Star on my sega master sytem today, and I couldnt help but think, wow, I can save anywhere I want in this game. How come the newer consoles dont allow you to do that many times? I mean this game is almost 20 years old and it allowed it.
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mikeg
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« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2005, 11:24:41 PM »

I agree with many of your gripes, especially the unlockable thing.  The only game I have played that gave me a decent unlockable was Resident Evil 4.  You unlock two mini games that are every bit as fun as the original.  New outfits, yes, but also new weapons, the ability to start the with the weapons you finished with the first time and on and on.  Now, those are unlockables.  But to give me the exact same game with the character wearing a halter top instead of a bulletproof vest!  Give me a break!
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« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2005, 12:42:59 AM »

Quote from: "Dimmona"
My biggest gripe:

The fact that you still can't save mid-game in the majority of sports games out there today.  Wth?  I don't always have 30min to play an entire game of football/hockey/basketball/whatever - it would be nice to quit and anytime and pick the game back up where I left off later...


You should have picked up the superior Madden 2005.  You could save anywhere
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semiconscious
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« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2005, 01:07:59 AM »

Quote
I like forward back strafe on 1 stick and up down left right on another. This way its similar to FPS control on a pc to me.


Quote
Don't know why you would complain about this as its the closest equivelent to a PC gaming setup with a mouse/keyboard.


i'm confused - what exactly does resembling a pc setup have to do with it? if a console controller isn't designed to mimic a keyboard/mouse combo any more than the other way round, it doesn't follow that mapping the one to 'resemble' the other is in any way the best (or even a good) way to do anything...

maybe if i hadn't dropped out of pc gaming when i went console, i'd be more sympathetic. but i can't help but think we're talking about 2 very different animals here. there's a reason console controllers have shoulder buttons - they allow for multiple functions to be mapped onto one analog stick. &, when done right, it's an extremely fluid & intuitive way of doing things, as any number of games have demonstrated...

&, yeah, this is something i feel strongly about - there've been a few games that i've anticipated enjoying only to find out on release that the control setup is just plain clunky/awkward. there's no way i'm gonna muck around trying to get comfortable with something like 'ghost in the shell', when there're games like 'wind waker' & 'ratchet & clank: going commando' that let me do pretty much the exact same things, control-wise, in a no-brainer, organic way...
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« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2005, 01:33:49 AM »

Not one mention of reptitetiveness?  Name me how every Japanese RPG plays...(Not that I don't love 'em anyways.)
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« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2005, 01:39:07 AM »

The only one I agree with is #4, and even that one doesn't bother me.

I especially disagree with the idea of putting turning left and right and moving forward and backward all on one stick. I hate that control scheme with a passion. I much prefer having strafing and forward/backward movement on one stick with view movement/turning all on the other stick. It's so much more comfortable to use...
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« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2005, 04:07:43 AM »

Quote from: "semiconscious"
Quote
I like forward back strafe on 1 stick and up down left right on another. This way its similar to FPS control on a pc to me.


Quote
Don't know why you would complain about this as its the closest equivelent to a PC gaming setup with a mouse/keyboard.


i'm confused - what exactly does resembling a pc setup have to do with it? if a console controller isn't designed to mimic a keyboard/mouse combo any more than the other way round, it doesn't follow that mapping the one to 'resemble' the other is in any way the best (or even a good) way to do anything...


Because from what I read here Rob has been mostly a PC gamer. hence why I said the dual analog setup of one stick being F/B and strafing(keys) while the other is for looking around(i.e. the mouse). Its the gampad equivelent of the mouse keyboard setup people use for 1st/3rd person games on the PC. Not sure how I can explain it any better.
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semiconscious
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« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2005, 03:36:34 PM »

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Because from what I read here Rob has been mostly a PC gamer. hence why I said the dual analog setup of one stick being F/B and strafing(keys) while the other is for looking around(i.e. the mouse). Its the gampad equivelent of the mouse keyboard setup people use for 1st/3rd person games on the PC. Not sure how I can explain it any better.


understood... it's just that once you've played a couple console games where holding down a shoulder button lets you switch between the 2 using the one stick, & kinda frees up your right hand, the keyboard-like setup tends to feel a little 'ambiguous', to the point where what maybe once was relatively comfortable/natural no longer is?...
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« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2005, 04:54:58 PM »

SOMEONE is going to get the next set of consoles right and include a mouse option
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« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2005, 06:12:41 PM »

Quote from: "Semaj"
SOMEONE is going to get the next set of consoles right and include a mouse option


Blah. So I have to sit at a desk or something? One of the things I like about consoles is being able to ksit back in a comfy chair or couch.
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« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2005, 11:58:31 PM »

You of course have to ruin my dreams,.. but I am thinking I could figoure out a decent add-on that would allow for a mouse... you would only need,.. what a foot by foot and a half placement, or with a good optical, the side of your couch,... lol...   your going ot make me think about this for a while... grumble... smile
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Rob_Merritt
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« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2005, 12:56:52 AM »

Two words for you...

lap desk
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Dimmona
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« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2005, 01:03:59 AM »

Go play the Metroid Hunters Demo on the Nintendo DS.... mouse?  What we need is a controller with a touch pad!
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« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2005, 07:33:58 PM »

Quote from: "Rob_Merritt"
4. Save points on Xbox. Why? It has a hard drive, use it. So what if their big, I'm not using it for anything but saved games. I played one game in two years on my Xbox, Knights of the Old Republic and it allowed me to save were I want. Why is this such a problem?


Dude, I'm 100% with ya there.  That's my #1 complaint with games.  I am to the place where I *will not* purchase a game that doesn't allow me to save when and as often as I want.  I simply don't have time to keep replaying sections over and over and over and over.
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« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2005, 06:34:40 AM »

Well i thought I was picky :wink: .
 
 1. I didn`t realise that there are combos for everything. But I think it`s a good idea to fuse ideas like combos with things that you wouldn`t expect them to.
 2. I also think that dual analog sticks is as close as you`re going to get to a FPS setup on PC. One stick for each axis. I love this.
 3. As I stated above I like it like this. I would NOT like "driving" controls as you stated, RE4 has this and I love this game and the controls work, but I still perfer it the other way.
 4. I agree to a certain extent with the save issue. In some cases being able to save all the time and anywhere really brings down the challenge.
 5. I also usually don`t use most bonuses. But is anyone really forcing you to use them? :wink:  They are extra things.

 Wow, don`t we disagree heh...But that`s what makes the world so interesting.
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« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2005, 12:28:07 PM »

Quote from: "Semaj"
SOMEONE is going to get the next set of consoles right and include a mouse option

Of the top of my head the Dreamcast, SNES and Playstation 2 all have had mouse support for at least some games.  Never really took off though.
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Harpua3
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« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2005, 01:26:50 PM »

I love me some FPS on PC, but I strongly agree a mouse is NOT right for a console.
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« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2005, 02:15:25 PM »

Quote from: "Dimmona"
Go play the Metroid Hunters Demo on the Nintendo DS.... mouse?  What we need is a controller with a touch pad!


I've tried that... it's horrible.
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Harpua3
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« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2005, 02:57:16 PM »

That`s far from horrible. It`s just like keyboard and mouse on PC.
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« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2005, 04:34:08 PM »

Quote from: "Harpua3"
That`s far from horrible. It`s just like keyboard and mouse on PC.

Speak for yourself - I found it incredibly unwieldy.
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« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2005, 05:35:19 PM »

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But to give me the exact same game with the character wearing a halter top instead of a bulletproof vest!

Well.. a halter top.. that's a bad example. I'd go for the halter top.

Quote from: "semiconscious"
understood... it's just that once you've played a couple console games where holding down a shoulder button lets you switch between the 2 using the one stick, & kinda frees up your right hand, the keyboard-like setup tends to feel a little 'ambiguous', to the point where what maybe once was relatively comfortable/natural no longer is?...

Unless you have some kind of lock-on (ie Wind Waker, Metroid) you can't circle strafe with only one stick.

Quote from: "Semaj"
SOMEONE is going to get the next set of consoles right and include a mouse option

The problem with a console and mouse is the placement, it's difficult to use a mouse sitting on the couch or floor in front of a 32" TV.  Maybe some kind of "air mouse". smile

Quote from: "Laner (regarding DS Metroid)"
I've tried that... it's horrible.

Did you have the thumb nub?  It's fairly handy with the thumb nub, not so much with the stylus.
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« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2005, 09:00:11 PM »

I wonder what it would be like playing a FPS with an EyeToy-like attachment.  Hmmm . . .
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Harpua3
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« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2005, 04:00:38 AM »

Laner I simply cannot understand how you don`t like that setup. Do you like FPS on PC with k/m? I can certainly respect your opinion, but that doesn`t mean that it doesn`t utterly confuse me :wink: .
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« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2005, 11:50:17 AM »

Quote from: "Harpua3"
Laner I simply cannot understand how you don`t like that setup. Do you like FPS on PC with k/m?


For me, while it seems natural for a mouse, it feels unnatural for two tiny joysticks.
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« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2005, 08:12:58 PM »

I hate games that are advertised as being for four players, but aren't good for four players right out of the box.  Why would I want to have three characters unlocked to start?  Why is the beginning of X-Men Legends for only one character?  I want to buy the game, take it over to the friend who has the big TV, and start playing with my friends.
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