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Author Topic: Fallout:New Vegas and Steam........WTF  (Read 1768 times)
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Scuzz
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« on: May 23, 2011, 04:26:52 PM »

So I finally loaded Fallout:New Vegas and discovered I have to be on-line to play it.
The game was a gift and only some small lettering on the back indicated that steam was involved, and the gift giver would not have known what that meant anyway.

So what is the idea with this anyway. I get a disc but the game is on-line? Does this effect game play at all? How does this benefit the game company?

Should I expect any weird problems? Do I still need to look for any possible patches?
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Greg Wak
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« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2011, 04:37:31 PM »

Steam is used for DRM. The good news is Steam will have all your patches set. Be prepared to wait a bit. There was a big one released that will take a bit to download. I have several steam games and enjoy the service.
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Scuzz
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« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2011, 05:01:44 PM »

Quote from: Greg Wak on May 23, 2011, 04:37:31 PM

Steam is used for DRM. The good news is Steam will have all your patches set. Be prepared to wait a bit. There was a big one released that will take a bit to download. I have several steam games and enjoy the service.


I noticed that...it dl'd really quick to about 96% then took 10 minutes to finish.
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Lordnine
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« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2011, 05:07:51 PM »

I love games that use Steamworks.  I refuse to buy a retail game that I can't activate over Steam because it's just so convenient if I ever want to reinstall a game or switch computers.

That said technically you only need to be online once to activate the game, after that you can run in offline mode if you really want. 
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« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2011, 05:13:15 PM »

Quote from: Lordnine on May 23, 2011, 05:07:51 PM

I love games that use Steamworks.  I refuse to buy a retail game that I can't activate over Steam because it's just so convenient if I ever want to reinstall a game or switch computers.

That said technically you only need to be online once to activate the game, after that you can run in offline mode if you really want. 


+1

My love of steam has only grown over the past 2 years.  It's just so dang convenient.
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« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2011, 06:40:02 PM »

Quote from: Scuzz on May 23, 2011, 04:26:52 PM

How does this benefit the game company?

It benefits the game company by taking away your ability to exchange ownership of the game, for one. Digital distribution itself benefits the game company by allowing them to sell a 16-digit permission slip and a PDF file for $59.95 instead of a high quality tangible product with a manual that's actually worthwhile (not that the majority of companies have been releasing those lately).

Luckily you have a nice connection; otherwise you'd still be waiting to play "your" game.
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Sarkus
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« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2011, 07:04:17 PM »

Quote from: Scuzz on May 23, 2011, 04:26:52 PM

So I finally loaded Fallout:New Vegas and discovered I have to be on-line to play it.
The game was a gift and only some small lettering on the back indicated that steam was involved, and the gift giver would not have known what that meant anyway.

So what is the idea with this anyway. I get a disc but the game is on-line? Does this effect game play at all? How does this benefit the game company?

Should I expect any weird problems? Do I still need to look for any possible patches?

Steam does have an offline mode so once you've gotten it installed and patched up, you can tell Steam to go offline and basically never have to deal with it again.  From what I've read on the official forums for New Vegas there are a number of people doing this.  I've had Steam offline for extended periods of time before and never had any problems.  Most Steamworks games only require an initial activation check,  much like other DRMs out there.
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hepcat
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« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2011, 08:28:54 PM »

Quote from: heloder on May 23, 2011, 06:40:02 PM

Quote from: Scuzz on May 23, 2011, 04:26:52 PM

How does this benefit the game company?

It benefits the game company by taking away your ability to exchange ownership of the game, for one. Digital distribution itself benefits the game company by allowing them to sell a 16-digit permission slip and a PDF file for $59.95 instead of a high quality tangible product with a manual that's actually worthwhile (not that the majority of companies have been releasing those lately).

Luckily you have a nice connection; otherwise you'd still be waiting to play "your" game.

nice connection not needed for anything but patching.  but you need a nice connection for patching with or without steam unless you're on the developer's LAN.  unlocking a game doesn't download huge files.  it's almost always a one time check (ubisoft games aside...although again, that happens with or without steam).

after that, you can play offline to your heart's content.  some would have you believe steam is an evil big brother when it comes to DRM.  that's simply not true.  a lot of folks were scared of the wheel when it was invented as well.

edit:  nm, sarkus beat me to the punch.   icon_wink
« Last Edit: May 23, 2011, 08:33:42 PM by hepcat » Logged

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Scuzz
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« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2011, 08:35:50 PM »

So is the disc I have the game and it just required Steam to verify/register ownership?

The game I have came with a standard FO3 type manual, although there is no install page like most manuals.

I have not "started" the actual game yet, I will probably do that tonight.
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« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2011, 08:44:28 PM »

Essentially, yes.  Conversely, you could chuck the disc at your neighbor's head while driving home and just enter the code from the manual into Steam and it will download the whole thing for you.
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« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2011, 08:51:18 PM »

The disc is a release version of the game that saves your system from needing to download 90% of the game data.  The product key you entered during installation has registered ownership of the product to your Steam account, so technically speaking, you'll never need the disc again.

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« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2011, 09:36:56 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on May 23, 2011, 08:28:54 PM

nice connection not needed for anything but patching.  but you need a nice connection for patching with or without steam unless you're on the developer's LAN.

Outside of Steam I can download a patch at another location or I can download it here a little at a time and still be able to play the game. From my experience, once you begin updating a game on Steam, you can't play that game until the patch is installed.

Quote from: hepcat on May 23, 2011, 08:28:54 PM

...unlocking a game doesn't download huge files.  it's almost always a one time check (ubisoft games aside...although again, that happens with or without steam).

Apart from the Steam updates which are automatic, Half-Life 2 for instance does download huge files when you unlock it (both to decrypt and then to update). Do other games default to "do not keep this game updated"?

Quote from: hepcat on May 23, 2011, 08:28:54 PM

some would have you believe steam is an evil big brother when it comes to DRM.  that's simply not true.

It's worse than just about any other DRM I can think of save for Ubisoft's and the limited 3 activation garbage.

Quote from: hepcat on May 23, 2011, 08:28:54 PM

...a lot of folks were scared of the wheel when it was invented as well.

One helped give rise to human civilization and allowed us to conquer the skies and leave the confines of our planet. The other takes away consumer rights in exchange for video game achievements and a friends list.

Please to not be equating Steam with the wheel.
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hepcat
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« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2011, 09:48:41 PM »

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Outside of Steam I can download a patch at another location or I can download it here a little at a time and still be able to play the game. From my experience, once you begin updating a game on Steam, you can't play that game until the patch is installed.

God bless ya if the few minutes it takes to download and apply a patch is asking too much of you when it comes to time away from your game.  You must still go crazy when the game is actually patching even when you downloaded the patch elsewhere!  That's what...up to 3 minutes away from the game!

Quote
Apart from the Steam updates which are automatic, Half-Life 2 for instance does download huge files when you unlock it (both to decrypt and then to update). Do other games default to "do not keep this game updated"?

You've mistaken "unlocking" with actually downloading and installing the game.  Half Life 2 did not require huge files to be downloaded for the simple act of unlocking the game.  I suspect you bought it off Steam and thought that meant it was automatically installed immediately.  That is not the case.

Quote
It's worse than just about any other DRM I can think of save for Ubisoft's and the limited 3 activation garbage.
 

No.  Not even close.


Quote
One helped give rise to human civilization and allowed us to conquer the skies and leave the confines of our planet. The other takes away consumer rights in exchange for video game achievements and a friends list.

Please to not be equating Steam with the wheel.

You're in the minority.  Please to not be equating Steam with taking away consumer rights. 




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« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2011, 10:24:17 PM »

spaceships have wheels?
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« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2011, 11:15:48 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on May 23, 2011, 09:48:41 PM

God bless ya if the few minutes it takes to download and apply a patch is asking too much of you when it comes to time away from your game.  You must still go crazy when the game is actually patching even when you downloaded the patch elsewhere!  That's what...up to 3 minutes away from the game!

A few minutes? Clearly your idea of a "poor connection" is a little out of touch with reality.

Quote from: hepcat on May 23, 2011, 09:48:41 PM

You've mistaken "unlocking" with actually downloading and installing the game.  Half Life 2 did not require huge files to be downloaded for the simple act of unlocking the game.  I suspect you bought it off Steam and thought that meant it was automatically installed immediately.  That is not the case.

You've suspected quite incorrectly. Indeed I bought the game retail and it still took hours to finish unlocking and patching to the point of actually being able to play it. And yes, it installed from the disc.

Quote from: hepcat on May 23, 2011, 09:48:41 PM

No.  Not even close.

Then how about an example? With the standard CD check DRM of yesteryear...

+ You don't need to install and run a client (and keep it updated).
+ You don't need to activate the game online.
+ The game isn't tied to you so you may exchange ownership if you desire.
+ The game isn't tethered to a third party service.

- You do need to insert CD key on some games (particularly multiplayer games).
- You do need to keep CD in the drive on some games (though a no-CD patch fixes that).

This means that at any point in the future you can play the game on any of your computers, since it's not tethered to a service you have no control over. It requires that you maintain a hard copy of the game, but that however is in your control.

And with Steam...

- You need to install and run Steam (and keep it updated).
- You need to activate your game online.
- Your game is permanently tied to your account.
- Your game is permanently tethered to the Steam service.
- You need to insert CD key on some games (not a big deal, but it's one of the few drawbacks of the other DRM, so I figure I mine as well include it here too).

+ You do not need to keep CD in the drive.
+ You may download the game in the future if you have access to the service.

How exactly is Steamworks better now? I suspect you'll mention friends lists and achievements or whatever, though these are not aspects of the DRM itself, but perks of using Steam the program. I have little problem with Steam the program -- if it were optional. It offers a number of nice services that I'm sure some people find interesting. I personally have no desire whatever to use it. Nothing it offers interests me in any way. But again, that's not even relevant in a discussion about Steam as DRM.

Quote from: hepcat on May 23, 2011, 09:48:41 PM

You're in the minority.  Please to not be equating Steam with taking away consumer rights.

Being in the minority != Being wrong.

Without Steamworks integration I can sell or donate any game I own. With Steamworks integration, it's not an option. Without Steamworks integration I can install the game whenever, wherever I want. With Steamworks integration I'm completely at the mercy of a service I have no control over. Steam takes control away from the consumer. You simply can't argue that. So I think I'll continue equating Steam with taking away consumer rights, thank you.

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« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2011, 11:38:44 PM »

Quote from: heloder on May 23, 2011, 11:15:48 PM

And with Steam...

- You need to install and run Steam (and keep it updated).

No, you are wrong about this for 99% of games on Steam.  There are a few exceptions, but for most Steam games it simply doesn't happen.  I was completely disconnected for the internet for a couple of months a few years ago and EVERY STEAM GAME I HAD RAN JUST FINE.  

As for New Vegas specifically, let's see what they officially had to say about it when it was first announced that the game would use Steamworks:

Quote
Fallout: New Vegas uses Steamworks for achievements and other features (such as friends lists, cloud storage of user preferences and so on). Use of Steam will be mandatory at retail. So what does that mean? We've implemented Steamworks in as light and unobtrusive a way as possible. Yes, you will have to install Steam when you install Fallout: New Vegas if you don;t already have it. And yes, you will have to be online at the time of that initial install. However you can install the game on as many systems as you want (with no restrictions!), and you do not have to be online to play the game after your initial activation. Not only that, but once the game has activated on Steam, you can throw out the game DVD entirely and just download the game over Steam. If you don't even have a DVD drive, you can just take the CD-Key from the box, enter it into Steam, and download it without ever using the disc at all.

For those concerned, this will have no affect on mod development whatsoever. Modders will still be able to create and distribute their plugins the same way they have in the past.

Yes, lets toss this and go back to Starforce and crap like that, shall we?


Quote
- You need to activate your game online.

While this is true, it's also increasingly true of most other DRM schemes.  Disk check is going away very fast.

Quote
- Your game is permanently tied to your account.

This is true.  If you like to sell or trade your games then Steam sucks.  Most of us don't care about this though.  And there has been talk that Steam is about to let people do some sort of "store credit" trade-in program anyway.  

Quote
- Your game is permanently tethered to the Steam service.

True, but I don't see why it matters.

Quote
- You need to insert CD key on some games (not a big deal, but it's one of the few drawbacks of the other DRM, so I figure I mine as well include it here too).

I've never had that happen.  

In an idea world we'd still be using disk check DRM schemes.  It's not an ideal world, so you either live with it or you don't. Among the options available, Steam seems as good or better then the alternative.  And in the case of New Vegas, that's the system the publisher decided to go with.  Nobody is forcing you to play New Vegas (or any other Steamworks tied game) and thus, no one is forcing you to deal with Steam at all.  But please at least get your facts straight before jumping onto a message board and repeating the same anti-Steam falsehoods that have been around since it launched.
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« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2011, 11:53:33 PM »

Quote from: Sarkus on May 23, 2011, 11:38:44 PM

No, you are wrong about this for 99% of games on Steam.  There are a few exceptions, but for most Steam games it simply doesn't happen.  I was completely disconnected for the internet for a couple of months a few years ago and EVERY STEAM GAME I HAD RAN JUST FINE.

So if I buy New Vegas I don't need to run Steam? Orange Box? Portal 2? Just Cause 2? Modern Warfare 2? Aliens vs Predator? Any other Steam game? How many Steamworks games don't require that you install and run Steam? List a few at least, if only so that I may look into possibly purchasing them. 

Quote from: Sarkus on May 23, 2011, 11:38:44 PM

It's not an ideal world, so you either live with it or you don't. Among the options available, Steam seems as good or better then the alternative.  And in the case of New Vegas, that's the system the publisher decided to go with.  Nobody is forcing you to play New Vegas (or any other Steamworks tied game) and thus, no one is forcing you to deal with Steam at all.

I'm glad that you at least agree that Steam is a step backwards, but I don't understand the whole "nobody is forcing you to use Steam so how could you ever possibly argue against it?" line of thinking that I get from some people.

Person A: "I don't like Steam and here are the reasons why."
Person B: "Then don't buy any games that use it! Problem solved!"

It would be cool if you could really end all Internet arguments with "Then don't worry about it! Problem solved!", though.

Quote from: Sarkus on May 23, 2011, 11:38:44 PM

But please at least get your facts straight before jumping onto a message board and repeating the same anti-Steam falsehoods that have been around since it launched.

Um, apart from the first, which I suspect is more a misunderstanding than anything, you stated that everything I said was true...
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« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2011, 12:05:52 AM »

Heloder, you've yet to offer any actual evidence that Steam is an inconvience to me or anyone else.  A lot of us don't mind running Steam...we actually prefer it.  

Can't play while downloading patches?  Doesn't bother me one bit.  I can choose not to patch it if I want by turning off the auto update if it WAS a problem.  But usually the patches are applied during hours when I'm not even on my machine.

Forced to use Steam for games that use it for DRM?  Doesn't bother me one bit.  Prefer it, actually.  Can't see how that's a bad thing at all.

Can't run it offline?  Nonsense.  I have no problem running it offline when my internet connection goes out.  

Game is tied to my account?  Welcome to digital distribution.  Some may allow it (I think Stardock might), but most don't right now.  As someone mentioned earlier, Steam is considering it, though.  But honestly, that's the nature of the beast when it comes to digital distribution.  Shall we drop the whole concept until everyone agrees to apply the rules of store shelf retail to digital content? 

Have to be connected to the internet to authorize a game the first time I install it?  Again, not a problem.  A lot of retail copies from stores are requiring that now too.  Even if that weren't the case, I think my life can go on reasonably well after sacrificing a few minutes for that process.

Download speeds are bad?  I've had that issue a couple of times...but nowhere near a level that I consider even more than a slight annoyance.  Considering how long it takes me to download patches for some games from the developer site, I prefer using Steam for that process.

Your entire line of reasoning against Steam seems to boil down to "I don't want to have to run Steam!".  That's not an argument, that's a personal bias.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 12:09:20 AM by hepcat » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2011, 12:12:33 AM »

Quote from: heloder on May 23, 2011, 11:53:33 PM

So if I buy New Vegas I don't need to run Steam? Orange Box? Portal 2? Just Cause 2? Modern Warfare 2? Aliens vs Predator? Any other Steam game? How many Steamworks games don't require that you install and run Steam? List a few at least, if only so that I may look into possibly purchasing them. 

And your point is?  If I buy some other DRM game then I still have run that DRM.  Most of them involve connecting to the internet at least once. Put Steam in "offline" mode once that part is done and what do you think is the negative?  It's not connecting or sending your personal data anywhere.  You install the game, it's verified, and you're done. 

Like I said, if you don't want to deal with it, don't.  Trying to tell us (or someone else) that we are stupid for not having the same hangups you do is not accomplishing anything.
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« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2011, 12:33:45 AM »

Quote from: hepcat on May 24, 2011, 12:05:52 AM

Heloder, you've yet to offer any actual evidence that Steam is an inconvience to me or anyone else.

All of the negatives points I listed are at the very least an inconvenience to me and obviously for anybody that has a poor connection to the Internet or cares about exchanging ownership of a game (you can check your local Gamestop if you want proof that those people exist). I'm uh...not sure that you understand what it means to have a debate. You like Steam. I can't prove that you're a liar and that you actually don't like Steam, or whatever it is you're trying to say. All I can do is list the reasons why I think it's worse, and wait for somebody to refute my points.

I'm hoping somebody does just that some day.

Quote from: hepcat on May 24, 2011, 12:05:52 AM

Your entire line of reasoning against Steam seems to boil down to "I don't want to have to run Steam!".  That's not an argument, that's a personal bias.

No, I'm actually giving legitimate points that can be argued. Losing ownership rights: good or bad. That can be argued. Being forced to run extra software: good or bad. That can be argued. You're spouting off a bullet point feature list and saying "lollerskates, I don't mind that one bit!". I'm pretty sure "that's a personal bias", according to you.

I'll make it easy on you and ask you a simple question. Why do you think it's better to be forced to use a service you may not like as opposed to having it be an option?

Re:

Quote from: hepcat on May 24, 2011, 12:05:52 AM

Forced to use Steam for games that use it for DRM?  Doesn't bother me one bit.  Prefer it, actually.  Can't see how that's a bad thing at all.

I think options are always better, myself.

Quote from: Sarkus on May 24, 2011, 12:12:33 AM

And your point is?  If I buy some other DRM game then I still have run that DRM.  Most of them involve connecting to the internet at least once. Put Steam in "offline" mode once that part is done and what do you think is the negative?  It's not connecting or sending your personal data anywhere.  You install the game, it's verified, and you're done.

So are you saying you actually do have to install and run Steam for those Steamworks games then? Well I guess it was just a misunderstanding after all.

Now obviously the negative is the fact that you have to install, update, and run Steam. Of course after you've installed and updated Steam, and the game that you just installed (hope the patch isn't big!), you can then put it in offline mode. That's cool and stuff. Of course you then have to go into online mode when you activate your next game. Which means updating Steam and your new game. So apart from forcing you to download those updates, offline mode is a godsend! But still inferior to not having to fuss with it at all, if you ask me.

Quote from: Sarkus on May 24, 2011, 12:12:33 AM

Like I said, if you don't want to deal with it, don't.  Trying to tell us (or someone else) that we are stupid for not having the same hangups you do is not accomplishing anything.

Has any internet debate ever accomplished anything? I don't recall calling anybody stupid in this thread, though, for what it's worth.
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« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2011, 02:01:04 AM »

Quote
I'm uh...not sure that you understand what it means to have a debate.

When you've helped to evelate this discussion to anything resembling an actual debate, I will gladly join in.  At this point though, you simply keep repeating the same things over and over again...things which you've been told are either untrue or are negatives only because they are inconvient to you, but certainly not to those who've responded in support of steam.

Quote
No, I'm actually giving legitimate points that can be argued. Losing ownership rights: good or bad. That can be argued. Being forced to run extra software: good or bad. That can be argued. You're spouting off a bullet point feature list and saying "lollerskates, I don't mind that one bit!". I'm pretty sure "that's a personal bias", according to you.

We tried to tell you "good" but you don't want to accept it.  Let's try it again, shall we?  Being forced to run extra software?  When I weigh in the value of that extra software (no need to go looking for a DVD again, no need to go hunting for the right patches in the right order, cross game communications, friend's list....hold up, i'm out of breath...there we go...where was i?  oh yea... wish lists, daily sales in their store that don't require me to spend money on gas for my car, extensive forums for technical help...i'm going to stop there...i'm too tired to go on), I'm happy as can be with that.  When they finally invent a set of software tools for games like those found in the Steam client that weighs in at zero kilobytes, give me a head's up.

People have refuted everything you've said, proving they're either false claims or simply biased opinions...with the exception of licensing.  Although as it's been pointed out to you, that issue pertains to almost all digital distribution at this point.  Not just Steam.  Singling them out for blame in that arena simply reinforces my sincere belief that you just don't like Steam for personal reasons.

Quote
and the game that you just installed (hope the patch isn't big!),
 

So all patches for games are also included on the disc when you buy a physical copy?  That's amazing!  The amount of foresight and precognative ability needed by a developer in order to prevent you from ever having to download a patch for their game boggles my mind.  

And I have to ask, why do you keep bringing up the issue of a good internet connection?   icon_confused  Are you not aware that a bad internet connection affects your ability to download patches from ANYwhere?  Not just Steam?  And if you're claiming they have bad connections on THEIR end, I disagree with that wholeheartedly as I rarely have nothing but tremendous speed when it comes to their service.

As for not having options, blame the publishers who see a digital distribution system that people really like (and i mean REALLY like...check Steam's numbers), that gives them control over the level of DRM they can enforce, provides auto patching and includes a wealth of simple to use game tools.  How dare they give the people what they want!   icon_wink

Quote
Has any internet debate ever accomplished anything? I don't recall calling anybody stupid in this thread, though, for what it's worth.


No, but you did insinuate we were dumb consumers by telling everyone Steam was ripping people off.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 03:06:16 AM by hepcat » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2011, 03:32:33 AM »

My advise is not to worry about a game that requires a 1 time online connection to activate. Save your concerns for games requiring the completely screwed up mess that's Games for Windows Live. BTW As others have already said, Steam is a great service and really worth logging into - GfWL on the ther hand.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2011, 03:42:55 AM »

Quote from: hepcat on May 24, 2011, 02:01:04 AM

At this point though, you simply keep repeating the same things over and over again...things which you've been told are either untrue or are negatives only because they are inconvient to you, but certainly not to those who've responded in support of steam.

If you're referring to Sarkus, let's take a look at that post.

In reply to "You need to install and run Steam (and keep it updated)." he claimed that the statement was false. It is demonstrably true. For Steamworks enabled games, you must install, run, and update Steam. You may set it to offline mode, but if you need to activate another game, you must go online and update Steam.

In reply to "You need to activate your game online." he claimed that the statement was true, and insinuated that it was indeed a downside to not only Steam, but all DRM that requires it.

In reply to "Your game is permanently tied to your account." he claimed that the statement was true and agreed that it was a downside if you cared about ownership rights (which, again, many people do -- even if you don't).

In reply to "Your game is permanently tethered to the Steam service." he claimed that the statement was true, but that he didn't care.

In reply to "You need to insert CD key on some games" he claimed he hadn't seen it. But of course for retail copies that are activated in Steam, it's a fact.

So really, nothing I said was untrue. Which brings me to...

Quote from: hepcat on May 24, 2011, 02:01:04 AM

We tried to tell you "good" but you don't want to accept it.  Let's try it again, shall we?  Being forced to run extra software?  When I weigh in the value of that extra software, I'm happy as can be with that.  When they finally invent a set of software tools for games like those found in the Steam client that weighs in at zero kilobytes, give me a head's up.

Oh come on hepcat, don't you remember? That's called personal bias! That's no more an argument than me saying the opposite. After all, Steam offers me no extra value, so why should I be forced to run it? Do you like being forced to run Games for Windows Live or [insert a service you don't enjoy]? The fact is, everything you like about Steam could -- and should -- be optional since they're supposedly not a part of the DRM. As a DRM, Steam is far more restrictive than all but a couple others, requiring an online activation tied to an account and a third party service that must be run on your computer. You're saying you're fine with this as long as you get the extra goodies that Steam provides. That's all well and good, but it's not much of an argument for Steam as a DRM. "It's not as bad as the alternatives" isn't much of an argument, either (especially since it's worse).

Quote from: hepcat on May 24, 2011, 02:01:04 AM

People have refuted everything you've said, proving their either false claims or simply biased opinions...with the exception of licensing.  Although as it's been pointed out to you, that issue pertains to almost all digital distribution at this point.  Not just Steam.  Singling them out for blame in that arena simply reinforces my sincere belief that you just don't like Steam for personal reasons.

This is a thread about Steam, in case you forgot. If it were a thread about Ubisoft's online DRM, I would be arguing against that. But yeah, I'm talking about Steam in this thread about Steam not because it's a thread about Steam, but because I have a personal vendetta against it.

Right.

Anyway, licensing may be the key issue but I'm not sure why you think Steam is above condemnation simply because they're not the only party at fault. Should I be obligated to include the names of every pertinent member of the judicial system and software industry if I ever mention Steam in a forum post so as to not "single them out"? Get real, hepcat. Steam is the 800 pound gorilla in the room. They did the most to usher in this era of video game licensing and there's really nobody else that's even close.

Quote from: hepcat on May 24, 2011, 02:01:04 AM

And I have to ask, why do you keep bringing up the issue of a good internet connection? Are you not aware that a bad internet connection affects your ability to download patches from ANYwhere?  Not just Steam?

As I pointed out in reply #11, Steam not only forces you to download the updates after initial activation (again, in my experience -- I'm still waiting for you to confirm that for me), but also disallows you from using the game while it updates. Without Steam, I can download a patch whenever and wherever I see fit, or not at all.

Quote from: hepcat on May 24, 2011, 02:01:04 AM

As for not having options, blame the publishers who see a digital distribution system that people really like (and i mean REALLY like...check Steam's numbers), that gives them control over the level of DRM they can enforce, provides auto patching and includes a wealth of simple to use game tools.  How dare they give the people what they want!

Yes, it's the wants of the people that they have in mind. Not the fact that they can demolish the second-hand market, implement draconian DRM, move towards a more profitable digital-only distribution model, and easily monetize their awful map packs, all while not enraging the masses (which is exactly what would happen if they did this on their own).

Quote from: hepcat on May 24, 2011, 02:01:04 AM

No, but you did insinuate we were dumb consumers by telling everyone Steam was ripping people off.

I gave factual information and said I thought they were negative points of the service. The rest is all you, buddy.

Quote from: kronovan on May 24, 2011, 03:32:33 AM

My advise is not to worry about a game that requires a 1 time online connection to activate. Save your concerns for games requiring the completely screwed up mess that's Games for Windows Live. BTW As others have already said, Steam is a great service and really worth logging into - GfWL on the ther hand.

I purchased Batman: Arkham Asylum and Fallout 3: Game of The Year Edition, both of which utilize Games for Windows Live and I don't understand the hatred people have towards that service. I created an offline account, and I never had to touch it again. If Steam were that unobtrusive I'd be a happy camper.
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« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2011, 03:58:35 AM »

The Witcher 2 on DVD also needs to be activated online (and that's only one example out of many over the years).

Games for Windows Live needs an internet connection to authenticate the game for the initial install.  

Games for Windows Live ties your game to your account.  

Easily 70 to 90 percent of all games I've bought on disc in the last 10 years has required a CD key for activation...and ALL mmorpg's do.  

Why is it fine in all those instances, but horrible if performed by Steam?

Honestly, I'm not sure if you even read what you're writing at this point.

Quote
As I pointed out in reply #11, Steam not only forces you to download the updates after initial activation (again, in my experience -- I'm still waiting for you to confirm that for me

Already did.  Mentioned it earlier, you just forgot to bring it up because it doesn't support your belief that Steam is horrid.  Right click on game shortcut in library, select Properties, click on Update tab, choose DO NOT UPDATE THIS GAME AUTOMATICALLY.  That wasn't so hard now, was it?

Quote
Yes, it's the wants of the people that they have in mind. Not the fact that they can demolish the second-hand market, implement draconian DRM, move towards a more profitable digital-only distribution model, and easily monetize their awful map packs, all while not enraging the masses (which is exactly what would happen if they did this on their own).

I got a tinfoil hat for ya, by the way.

You don't want to bring up other digital distribution systems in this discussion, yet you're fine with assigning every single worst case scenario generated by ALL (I put ALL in caps for a reason) digital distribution systems to Steam.  

You've done nothing to convince me that your dislike for Steam is anything BUT a personal one.  Give me some hard evidence to the contrary instead of shoveling EVERYTHING that you don't like about DD onto Steam and then giving other DD services a pass.  Give me even one instance where you suffered from something for which steam and only steam is culpable, and I'll show you the same problem in either the disc version or GfWL.  And no, you can't keep yelling out "draconian drm!" over and over again because that's simply not true.  I suspect you have no clue what draconian means if you think that what steam is enforcing can be described as such.  That you compare Steam to ubisoft's 3 activation or online only play DRM is further evidence you're just angry at steam for some reason.

Quote
But yeah, I'm talking about Steam in this thread about Steam not because it's a thread about Steam, but because I have a personal vendetta against it.

A vendetta is what it is.  And vendettas are rarely steeped in logic, as you've so deftly shown us.

edit:  this is getting both tiresome and annoying (not just for me, I'm sure..but for others in this thread).  here's a summary:

I (and everyone else who's piped up in here) feels that Steam is a great service.  It offers us a lot of gaming tools we enjoy, gives us a way of accessing our games from any computer with an internet connection and without searching for discs, includes a UI that allows me to organize my games in an easy to use fashion, and updates my games automatically so that I don't have to go searching for patches and then worry about installing them in the right order.

You don't like Steam because it made you wait 4 minutes to play a game while it downloaded a patch.
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« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2011, 04:39:21 AM »

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!   icon_evil
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« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2011, 05:15:49 AM »

Quote from: hepcat on May 24, 2011, 03:58:35 AM

Why is it fine in all those instances, but horrible if performed by Steam?

1: If The Witcher 2 requires online activation then I disagree with it. Should I have randomly brought this up, along with every other game that has ever required online activation? Would that have made you...calmer?

2: That's strange, because I've played two GFWL titles...and I don't have a GFWL online account. How do you explain something like that? Is it magic? Or do you just not know what you're talking about?

Quote from: Microsoft
On the other hand, Games for Windows — LIVE does not control access to you [sic] collection through online verification.  You can install your games anywhere and play your games offline without online verification.  You can also launch games directly without running the Games for Windows — LIVE client.  The only time you have to connect to Games for Windows — LIVE is when you want to receive LIVE services. Then Games for Windows - LIVE does verify that your account is authorized to play the game on Games for Windows — LIVE.

3: How can a game be permanently tied to an offline account?

4: I agree with this, and as I said multiple posts ago, I don't find it to be a big deal.

Quote from: hepcat on May 24, 2011, 03:58:35 AM

Already did.  Mentioned it earlier, you just forgot to bring it up because it doesn't support your belief that Steam is horrid.  Right click on game shortcut in library, select Properties, click on Update tab, choose DO NOT UPDATE THIS GAME AUTOMATICALLY.  That wasn't so hard now, was it?

So are you saying if I install a Steamworks game and activate it on Steam that it won't attempt to update itself before being able to change that setting? I honestly don't know, because from my experience with Half-Life 2 and Episode One, this wasn't the case. But that was years ago.

Quote from: hepcat on May 24, 2011, 03:58:35 AM

I got a tinfoil hat for ya, by the way.

A tinfoil hat? Are you honestly going to attempt to argue that game publishers don't want to get rid of the second-hand market or wouldn't prefer to have a digital only sales model? I'm a fan of taking the more difficult stance in debates, but that's something else. Go on; give it a shot.

Quote from: hepcat on May 24, 2011, 03:58:35 AM

You don't want to bring up other digital distribution systems in this discussion, yet you're fine with assigning every single worst case scenario generated by ALL (I put ALL in caps for a reason) digital distribution systems to Steam.

Man look at you still harping about this even now. Apparently using Steam as an example is UNACCEPTABLE in hepcat's eyes. Do you honestly want me to list every gaming industry entity that I have the same issues with? Is that going to solve something here?

Quote from: hepcat on May 24, 2011, 03:58:35 AM

Give me even one instance where you suffered from something for which steam and only steam is culpable, and I'll show you the same problem in either the disc version or GfWL.

Well alright. If I install my boxed copy of Half-Life 2 right now I have to install Steam, sign in to Steam, update Steam, decrypt and activate Half-Life 2, update Half-Life 2 (?), and then I get to play it. If I want to play Fallout 3, I install Fallout 3 which installs GFWL. Then I can just create an offline account and play the game without any further hassle. Ever. I never have to be online with GFWL. Ever. I never have to download anything. Ever. I can pack up the game and ship it off to anybody else and they can use it just the same. How does Steam compare to that? Enlighten me.

Quote from: hepcat on May 24, 2011, 03:58:35 AM

And no, you can't keep yelling out "draconian drm!" over and over again because that's simply not true.  I suspect you have no clue what draconian means if you think that what steam is enforcing can be described as such.

dra·co·ni·an/dr?'kone?n/
Adjective: (of laws or their application) Excessively harsh and severe.

I'd say compared to almost every other form of DRM, Steam is excessively harsh and severe what with its forced online activation, forced third party service and program, and forced account tie-in. So, draconian it is.

Quote from: hepcat on May 24, 2011, 03:58:35 AM

That you compare Steam to ubisoft's 3 activation or online only play DRM is further evidence you're just angry at steam for some reason.

Are they not all DRM schemes? My comparison was "not as bad as", if I recall correctly. Was that wrong? I love it when it's deemed unacceptable when I say Steam's DRM is harsher than others, and yet it's also unacceptable when I say Steam's DRM is less harsh than others. You know, I think you may like Steam on a somewhat more disturbing level than the average user.

Quote from: hepcat on May 24, 2011, 03:58:35 AM

You don't like Steam because it made you wait 4 minutes to play a game while it downloaded a patch.

Life must be so much easier when you can delude yourself into believing solely what you wish to believe.

And with that I'm going to bed.
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« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2011, 06:43:43 AM »

Quote from: heloder on May 24, 2011, 03:42:55 AM

In reply to "You need to install and run Steam (and keep it updated)." he claimed that the statement was false. It is demonstrably true. For Steamworks enabled games, you must install, run, and update Steam. You may set it to offline mode, but if you need to activate another game, you must go online and update Steam.

You are being rather obtuse about this.  Your statement was false because at least part of it clearly is.  Do you need to install and run Steam with a Steamworks game?  Yes.  Not that it's much different then the software other digital delivery content providers want you to install first, even if they are DRM free otherwise.  The false part is that you don't have to keep it updated.  And that ignores the implication of your statement, which is that you need to keep Steam connected to the internet to maintain access to your games, which is clearly not true.  Now if you want to buy another Steam game later, sure, it will want to update to the latest version (though you still haven't explained what is so wrong about this).  You won't be forced to update you older games, which you seem to have a hard time understanding, but yes, the service will need to be updated if you want to use it again.  What a shocking concept!  Imagine if other software on occasion asked to be updated. Like anti-virus protection.  Or that buggy game.  Oh, wait. . .

We can argue about this all day but it isn't going to change anything.  You are using the OP's thread to jump on your soapbox about an issue you are obviously passionate about, but the reality is that ship has sailed when it comes to the kind of copy protection or whatever you'd prefer.  Arguing here isn't going to change that.  And IMHO Steam is a lot better then most of the alternatives once you accept that some form of DRM is going to be part of PC gaming.   All I can tell you is that you are going to be missing out on a lot of games if you continue to hold a hard line on what you will accept or not in that department.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 06:45:59 AM by Sarkus » Logged

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« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2011, 11:44:09 AM »

Quote
Are they not all DRM schemes? My comparison was "not as bad as", if I recall correctly

one paragraph after

Quote
I'd say compared to almost every other form of DRM, Steam is excessively harsh and severe what with its forced online activation


 icon_lol

In any case, I'm done.  You don't like Steam, I do.  End of story.
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« Reply #28 on: May 24, 2011, 01:02:25 PM »

Quote from: Sarkus on May 24, 2011, 06:43:43 AM

The false part is that you don't have to keep it updated.  And that ignores the implication of your statement, which is that you need to keep Steam connected to the internet to maintain access to your games, which is clearly not true.

Is this bizarro world or something? How did I imply anything of the sort? Did I not just write a paragraph in reply #19 about offline mode, specifically stating that you could enable it and not be online to have access to your games? Did that not happen?

Quote from: Sarkus on May 24, 2011, 06:43:43 AM

You won't be forced to update you older games, which you seem to have a hard time understanding...

How do I have a hard time understanding that? What part of this sentence is me insinuating that you have to update all of your games when going back into online mode?

Quote from: heloder
Of course you then have to go into online mode when you activate your next game. Which means updating Steam and your new game.

I specifically said new game to avoid confusion, and yet you're still confused. Amazing.

Quote from: Sarkus on May 24, 2011, 06:43:43 AM

What a shocking concept!  Imagine if other software on occasion asked to be updated. Like anti-virus protection.  Or that buggy game.  Oh, wait. . .

Asked to be updated? When does Steam ever "ask" to update something?

Quote from: hepcat on May 24, 2011, 11:44:09 AM

Quote
Are they not all DRM schemes? My comparison was "not as bad as", if I recall correctly

one paragraph after

Quote
I'd say compared to almost every other form of DRM, Steam is excessively harsh and severe what with its forced online activation

I'm not sure where the issues lies with what I said. In one sentence I say it's not as bad as some DRM, and in the next I said it's worst than almost every other form of DRM. Are those two sentences somehow not compatible? Does "almost every other" now mean "every other"?

Quote from: hepcat on May 24, 2011, 11:44:09 AM

In any case, I'm done.  You don't like Steam, I do.  End of story.

That's all you got? No response to your GFWL nonsense or your little Steam challenge? I am disappoint.
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« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2011, 02:09:36 PM »

Quote
Asked to be updated? When does Steam ever "ask" to update something?

As pointed out you CAN select the option to NOT update ANY game you own.  I even posted explicit instructions on how to do so.  That you're not able to follow even those simple instructions is no fault of Steam.

Quote
That's all you got? No response to your GFWL nonsense or your little Steam challenge? I am disappoint.

Firstly, I am sorry you are dissapoint.   Tongue

Secondly, go to the GfWL site, click on Games Catalog and then add a game to your cart.  Try to then purchase the game and let me know if it doesn't prompt you to log into your GfWL account OR create a new one.  The license IS tied to an account in your name.  That you don't have to log into that account to play the game after the initial install is true...until you want to go online for MP (stands for multiplayer....it's a neat idea that allows you to play other people online.  you may not be aware of it), download DLC for your game, or earn achievements (something I personally don't care about).  

Is Steam more restrictive in this regard?  Yes.  But the level of service it provides requires that amount of interaction with the games it supports.  As has been stated repeatedly (and ignored by you), some of us happily accept that level of integration for the level of service Steam provides.  

Quote
Well alright. If I install my boxed copy of Half-Life 2 right now I have to install Steam, sign in to Steam, update Steam, decrypt and activate Half-Life 2, update Half-Life 2 (?), and then I get to play it. If I want to play Fallout 3, I install Fallout 3 which installs GFWL. Then I can just create an offline account and play the game without any further hassle. Ever. I never have to be online with GFWL. Ever. I never have to download anything. Ever. I can pack up the game and ship it off to anybody else and they can use it just the same. How does Steam compare to that? Enlighten me.

That's all fine and good...until you realize that...wait for it...GfWL IS BEING INSTALLED IN YOUR SCENARIO.  You even say so yourself.  As for updating, great...you have the option to play an unpatched game.  Glad that's important to you.  I'd rather have a service that does it for me...something like...oh...I don't know...steam?  

At the end of the day, Steam provides me with a multitude of services that can only be provided at its current level of convenience through an integrated system such as the one Steam currently uses.  My cell phone has a camera, a voice recorder, internet access and a phone. Sure, I have the option to have those all broken out separately and worn on a Batman style utility belt that makes me look like a dork and is ultimately an INconvenience.  But I choose to have them all combined into one small package for convenience's sake.  Is that wrong?  In your eyes maybe.  In mine, it's what I want.  There are a VERY small number of games that don't offer an alternative to using Steam, that is true.  But maybe it's not so much an evil attempt on their part to destroy an entire business sector as it is offering a fantastic service that appeals to both consumers and software sellers?  Damn Steam for doing their job well!

edit:  this discussion has become too heated at this point.  Let's agree to disagree and cut the childish crap.  
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 02:46:35 PM by hepcat » Logged

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« Reply #30 on: May 24, 2011, 02:50:14 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on May 24, 2011, 02:09:36 PM

As pointed out you CAN select the option to NOT update ANY game you own.  I even posted explicit instructions on how to do so.  That you're not able to follow even those simple instructions is no fault of Steam.

If you install Steam and run it, it updates automatically. It does not ask you if you want to update it. Is that sentence untrue?

You also did not answer my question as to whether or not the initial patch installs automatically. If it doesn't, then you can indeed select "do not keep this game updated" in the options menu. If it does install automatically, then again, that's a forced update. From my experience, that is indeed the case. Do I have to install Half-Life 2 again to get a clear answer on this matter?

Quote from: hepcat on May 24, 2011, 02:09:36 PM

I didn't respond to your GFWL reply because it was so obviously wrong.  Go to the GfWL site, click on Games Catalog and then add a game to your cart.  Try to then purchase the game and let me know if it doesn't prompt you to log into your GfWL account OR create a new one.

I'll wait...

There ya go, you were wrong. The license IS tied to an account in your name.

Of course buying and downloading a game online requires an online account. I don't use digital distribution. With GFWL, that means I don't have to be online or tether my game to a personal account. Games for Windows Live gives you the freedom to choose. Steam does not. Therefor, Games for Windows Live is superior in that regard. Surely you agree with that? Unless you think choice is bad for some reason.

Quote from: hepcat on May 24, 2011, 02:09:36 PM

That's all fine and good...until you realize that...wait for it...GfWL IS BEING INSTALLED IN YOUR SCENARIO.

Oh my god! Foiled again! But seriously, I can deal with Games for Windows Live being installed since it's almost completely unobtrusive and doesn't take away any of my consumer rights, unlike Steam. Best of all, it provides a choice as to how I want to use it. Unlike Steam.

Quote from: hepcat on May 24, 2011, 02:09:36 PM

At the end of the day, Steam provides me with a multitude of services that can only be provided at its current level of convenience through an integrated system.

Baldercrap. It's completely possible for Valve to forgo the online requirements of Steam while still allowing its various services to be utilized if desired. All they need to do is add the ability to create an offline account like Games for Windows Live, and voila! Best of both worlds! You get your autopatching and video game achievements and I get to play my $60 game how I want.

Why hasn't Valve done that?
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« Reply #31 on: May 24, 2011, 02:54:30 PM »

Oh and so I'm not accused of singling Steam out, I do not like the fact that you have to tether a GFWL game to an account if you want to play multiplayer, either. I don't play multiplayer anymore so it's not a huge deal for me, but there you go.
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« Reply #32 on: May 24, 2011, 02:59:14 PM »

Quote from: heloder on May 24, 2011, 02:54:30 PM

Oh and so I'm not accused of singling Steam out, I do not like the fact that you have to tether a GFWL game to an account if you want to play multiplayer, either. I don't play multiplayer anymore so it's not a huge deal for me, but there you go.

Of course you don't...you were shot down on that front and have no other way out.    Tongue

Quote from: heloder on May 24, 2011, 02:50:14 PM


Baldercrap. It's completely possible for Valve to forgo the online requirements of Steam while still allowing its various services to be utilized if desired. All they need to do is add the ability to create an offline account like Games for Windows Live, and voila! Best of both worlds! You get your autopatching and video game achievements and I get to play my $60 game how I want.

Why hasn't Valve done that?

Because steam offers far more than just autopatching and video game achievements.  I've mentioned the numerous services they offer.  You just forgot about them because they don't support your prejudice.  

I repeat:  Steam offers a level of service that cannot be duplicated without an integrated system such as the one it currently uses.  That you don't believe this to be true is a reflection on your ignorance on this matter, not any sign of expertise.
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« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2011, 03:10:15 PM »

Shit, i'd be totally lost without steam.

I've bought like 2 or 3 games in the last few years i couldn't get on steam....and i bought them on a different service similar to steam but not nearly as good and more intrusive...i didn't like it...so when one of those 3 became available on steam...i rebought it on steam and gave up the other 2 games i never played anyway.

Steam is the one app i run at startup and always leave on aside from anti virus and malware.

Steam is my friends list and friends chat program.

Steam allows me to take screenshots from any of my games and store them online in the steam cloud and share them with friends.

The more games that use steamworks, the better.

And they bring me all kinds of indie games cheap! and the sales!

And i love the achievements it offers for games....and the hours played tracking!  

And the auto patching with all new patches!!

I refuse to buy games that don't steam anymore.

All games should require steam and use steamworks.

I want steam on my goddamn xbox 360 now.
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hepcat
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« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2011, 03:12:55 PM »

I'm done.  This is taking up way too much of my work time today.  If Heloder wants to trumpet this as vindication for his beliefs, so be it.  I don't have the time or the desire to argue with him any more.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 03:21:20 PM by hepcat » Logged

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« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2011, 03:39:26 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on May 24, 2011, 02:59:14 PM

Of course you don't...you were shot down on that front and have no other way out.

So are you saying that I do actually play multiplayer PC games, and that I'm simply lying? I would love for you to offer any proof of that whatsoever. So what games do I play online, hepcat? Am I good at them or am I a total noob? Delusions are fun.

And I see you've refused to acknowledge the freedom of choice that GFWL offers. It must be your "personal bias". Or is it because you just don't like GFWL for personal reasons? Maybe it's further evidence that you're just angry at GFWL for some reason. Oh, no, it's because GFWL made you wait 4 minutes to play a game while it downloaded a patch. That's the ticket.

Quote from: hepcat on May 24, 2011, 02:59:14 PM

Because steam offers far more than just autopatching and video game achievements.  I've mentioned the numerous services they offer.  You just forgot about them because they don't support your prejudice.

What are these services that would no longer be possible if Valve offered an offline account similar to the one used in GFWL? How would the online service even be affected in any way? How could the online service be affected in any way?

Quote from: hepcat on May 24, 2011, 03:12:55 PM

I'm done.  This is taking up way too much of my work time today.  If Heloder wants to trumpet this as a win, so be it.

Hey, I'm not above that. I hereby claim this thread in the name of heloder!
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« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2011, 04:27:46 PM »

Quote from: heloder on May 24, 2011, 03:42:55 AM

Quote from: kronovan on May 24, 2011, 03:32:33 AM

My advise is not to worry about a game that requires a 1 time online connection to activate. Save your concerns for games requiring the completely screwed up mess that's Games for Windows Live. BTW As others have already said, Steam is a great service and really worth logging into - GfWL on the ther hand.

I purchased Batman: Arkham Asylum and Fallout 3: Game of The Year Edition, both of which utilize Games for Windows Live and I don't understand the hatred people have towards that service. I created an offline account, and I never had to touch it again. If Steam were that unobtrusive I'd be a happy camper.

Good for you, I'm glad it worked without a hitch. Unfortunately there are many people for which it doesn't - just do a search of the Internet for people that can't get to their game saves for their GfWL enabled games. I recently encountered problems with it when installing a game on WinXP - the GfWL client would never update successfully and even the full download from the MS site wouldn't install correctly. Even worse, the problems it encountered were elementary things like errant MSI install routines or attempts to connect non-existent update servers?

Could I have eventually gotten it to work? Probably, but after wasting about an hour on it I opted to download the fanmade disabler for my specific game - that applet took 1 minute to install and it worked perfectly. slywink This also isn't the 1st time I've seen problems with it, as a number of friends have had install, update and game save/profile problems. My impression of GfWL is that MS just blatantly dropped the ball with it - no doubt due to stiffer than expected competition. Nothing new about that - that's pretty much their history with PC gaming. Meanwhile I've never encountered a single install problem with Steam, nor heard of any friends that have and that includes installing it on some fairly craptastic computers. That's not to say I don't have my complaints with the Steam client, but good Lord at least it installs properly!
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 04:34:27 PM by kronovan » Logged
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« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2011, 04:30:43 PM »

Quote from: kronovan on May 24, 2011, 03:32:33 AM

My advise is not to worry about a game that requires a 1 time online connection to activate. Save your concerns for games requiring the completely screwed up mess that's Games for Windows Live. BTW As others have already said, Steam is a great service and really worth logging into - GfWL on the ther hand.  Roll Eyes


So I played off-line last night. No problems, easy to do.

Do I still need to go out and get the patches or did Steam take care of that for me?
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hepcat
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« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2011, 04:34:19 PM »

Steam would have automatically updated it for you unless you turned off the auto update function, so you should be good to go.
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