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Author Topic: Fallout 3, or why you are going to have no life thanks to Kathode.  (Read 4875 times)
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CeeKay
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« on: March 25, 2008, 12:56:52 AM »

Interesting article of Fallout 3 (courtesy of OO).  The thing that jumps out to me is this:

Quote
-Over 200 endings, since last week. The 12 endings was surpassed sometime ago.

ack!  social life after release... fading... damn you...Kathode......

 Tongue icon_biggrin
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« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2008, 01:23:09 AM »

 icon_eek
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« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2008, 02:26:12 AM »

Well, some of that could be variations of story like how fallout 1 and 2 worked... where you have 10 different subplots that can have different endings. I seriously doubt they have 200 REAL endings.
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« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2008, 02:39:54 AM »

Why I am going to no life?
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« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2008, 02:41:16 AM »

While I'm looking forward to the game the "200 endings" sounds like when a FPS developer talks about having 1000 different types of weapons in their game because changing the color is considered a "different" gun.
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« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2008, 02:59:16 AM »

Quote from: EngineNo9 on March 25, 2008, 02:39:54 AM

Why I am going to no life?
cause FO3 is going to take all the have so we all will be have not's!
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« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2008, 05:33:45 AM »

Quote from: Jumangi on March 25, 2008, 02:41:16 AM

While I'm looking forward to the game the "200 endings" sounds like when a FPS developer talks about having 1000 different types of weapons in their game because changing the color is considered a "different" gun.

Yeah. The difference in one ending and another could be something as small as it being day or night, mustard stain on the shirt or mayo...

Seriously though, 200 endings just sound stupid to me.
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« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2008, 10:29:00 AM »

Or maybe you hit a switch and sit back and watch all the alternative endings play out before you...Kinda like the "extras" you get on a DvD...

I'll be lucky if I see one ending...let alone 200.........And yes it does sound wonky to me as well.
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« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2008, 12:55:27 PM »

Sounds like Bethesda are proponents of the Peter "the incredible bullshitting man" Molyneux school of public relations.
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« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2008, 01:47:18 PM »

And yes, Bethesda has already come out and said that many of the endings are just permutations:

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Todd Howard: Being that we are Bethesda…everything gets a bit big. So as of last week we’re over 200 endings. That is not an exaggeration, but it deserves some description. 200 endings…that’s a lot. So originally when we started, we had various iterations of the ending. The ending is kind of cinematic, that’s dynamic based on the things you’ve done.

When we started, it was kind of fuzzy, it was like “well there’s like 9 maybe 12″ and we started adding things to it. So if you had done this or not this, you’d get this other tweak to the ending. And we kept doing that. And you know even just two weeks ago someone had this idea, “Oh we should add this idea to the ending” (sorry I’m not going to spoil what that is). And I said, “oh that’s a genius idea, we have to do that.” But then it became, “oh, but there’s four versions of that.” So i was like, “okay there’s like four different versions of that part,” and that multiplies by, at the time we were at about 60 endings…so now there’s four versions of that, so now there are around 240 versions.”

Still, it's cool that the game will 'remember' what you did during the course of the game, just like in the last Fallout games.
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« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2008, 01:52:19 PM »

That sounds really cool.  Even if it's as simple as panning over each of the X cities in the game to show how they've developed (or turned into a crater), I like the idea of tying all the experiences together in the end.
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« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2008, 02:26:02 PM »

I can just see kathode banging his head on his desk every time Todd Howard came over and started his sentence with, "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if..." smile
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« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2008, 02:34:50 PM »

Quote from: Destructor on March 25, 2008, 01:47:18 PM

And yes, Bethesda has already come out and said that many of the endings are just permutations:

Quote
Todd Howard: Being that we are Bethesda…everything gets a bit big. So as of last week we’re over 200 endings. That is not an exaggeration, but it deserves some description. 200 endings…that’s a lot. So originally when we started, we had various iterations of the ending. The ending is kind of cinematic, that’s dynamic based on the things you’ve done.

When we started, it was kind of fuzzy, it was like “well there’s like 9 maybe 12″ and we started adding things to it. So if you had done this or not this, you’d get this other tweak to the ending. And we kept doing that. And you know even just two weeks ago someone had this idea, “Oh we should add this idea to the ending” (sorry I’m not going to spoil what that is). And I said, “oh that’s a genius idea, we have to do that.” But then it became, “oh, but there’s four versions of that.” So i was like, “okay there’s like four different versions of that part,” and that multiplies by, at the time we were at about 60 endings…so now there’s four versions of that, so now there are around 240 versions.”

Still, it's cool that the game will 'remember' what you did during the course of the game, just like in the last Fallout games.

but I want 300 seperate endings, all done with full CGI and each completely different!!!  crybaby
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« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2008, 04:26:38 PM »

If you save the world, you get one ending.
If you don't save the world, you get a different ending.

If you save the world and destroy the widget of doom, you get one ending.
If you save the world but keep the widget of doom, you get a different ending.
If you don't save the world and destroy the widget of doom, you get one ending.
If you don't save the world but keep the widget of doom, you get a different ending.


If you save the world and destroy the widget of doom, but don't take the McGuffin, you get one ending.
If you save the world and destroy the widget of doom, and take the McGuffin, you get a different ending.
If you save the world but keep the widget of doom, but don't take the McGuffin, you get a different ending.
If you save the world but keep the widget of doom, and take the McGuffin, you get a different ending.
If you don't save the world and destroy the widget of doom, but don't take the McGuffin, you get a different ending.
If you don't save the world but keep the widget of doom, and take the McGuffin, you get a different ending.
If you don't save the world and destroy the widget of doom, but don't take the McGuffin, you get a different ending.
If you don't save the world but keep the widget of doom, and take the McGuffin, you get a different ending.


See how this works?  Throw in a few more variables, and you'll easily end up with 65,536 "different" endings.
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« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2008, 05:26:23 PM »

Quote
If you save the world but keep the widget of doom, and take the McGuffin, you get a different ending

Oh look, it is the entire script of Mission Impossible 3.   icon_twisted
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« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2008, 05:43:43 PM »

Quote from: whiteboyskim on March 25, 2008, 02:26:02 PM

I can just see kathode banging his head on his desk every time Todd Howard came over and started his sentence with, "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if..." smile

Todd Howard is, you know, in charge of the whole shebang, so I imagine Kath bangs his head privately afterwards or just tells him "no, it canna be done captain" in his best Scottish accent.
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« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2008, 05:44:33 PM »

Quote from: Xoanon on March 25, 2008, 12:55:27 PM

Sounds like Bethesda are proponents of the Peter "the incredible bullshitting man" Molyneux school of public relations.

Sure one-poster, because no one publisher or developer wants to portray their game in the best light. They are evil. GRR!! ARRR!! So bad!!
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« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2008, 06:20:28 PM »

Quote from: Calvin on March 25, 2008, 05:44:33 PM

Quote from: Xoanon on March 25, 2008, 12:55:27 PM

Sounds like Bethesda are proponents of the Peter "the incredible bullshitting man" Molyneux school of public relations.

Sure one-poster, because no one publisher or developer wants to portray their game in the best light. They are evil. GRR!! ARRR!! So bad!!

Dude, that's a little harsh.
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« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2008, 06:27:17 PM »

Quote from: Calvin on March 25, 2008, 05:43:43 PM

Quote from: whiteboyskim on March 25, 2008, 02:26:02 PM

I can just see kathode banging his head on his desk every time Todd Howard came over and started his sentence with, "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if..." smile

Todd Howard is, you know, in charge of the whole shebang, so I imagine Kath bangs his head privately afterwards or just tells him "no, it canna be done captain" in his best Scottish accent.

I am well aware of that and was going for humor. Clearly it escaped you. Better luck next time. icon_cool
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« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2008, 07:36:37 PM »

Quote from: Calvin on March 25, 2008, 05:44:33 PM

Quote from: Xoanon on March 25, 2008, 12:55:27 PM

Sounds like Bethesda are proponents of the Peter "the incredible bullshitting man" Molyneux school of public relations.

Sure one-poster, because no one publisher or developer wants to portray their game in the best light. They are evil. GRR!! ARRR!! So bad!!

There's a difference between positive spin and outright exaggeration.  I can't see how a game would actually have 200 unique and different endings.  Just because it says, as Fallout did, what happened after the game ends, that doesn't make each mix and match of positive/negative results is a different ending.

So saying there are 240 different endings, when you are in actuality mixing and matching between a short number of actual results... that's pretty freakin limp.
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« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2008, 07:43:19 PM »

Quote from: unbreakable on March 25, 2008, 07:36:37 PM

So saying there are 240 different endings, when you are in actuality mixing and matching between a short number of actual results... that's pretty freakin limp.

Here's the question.  Was that a quote taken out of conference from the conversation?  Because it sure sounds like it was from the explanation posted later.
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« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2008, 08:47:02 PM »

Quote from: Calvin on March 25, 2008, 05:44:33 PM

Sure one-poster, because no one publisher or developer wants to portray their game in the best light. They are evil. GRR!! ARRR!! So bad!!

There is a distinction to be made between hyping a game and just flat out lying to your potential customers. As one of the suckers who fell for the little fibs they told about the Radiant AI during the development of Oblivion, I can't take anything they say at face value.
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« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2008, 03:08:26 AM »

Im not worried about the ending...its all the stuff leading up to it that scares me.
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« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2008, 03:23:10 PM »

Quote from: Xoanon on March 25, 2008, 12:55:27 PM

Sounds like Bethesda are proponents of the Peter "the incredible bullshitting man" Molyneux school of public relations.

Unfortunately, The waiting list to get in that school is long.

P.s. Welcome to the forums!  Ignore Calvin,  while he technically is a representative of the site he is not representative of the majority of folks here.  Once your post count gets above 300 he will be forced to let you have an opinion.   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2008, 04:42:38 PM »

Quote from: morlac on March 26, 2008, 03:23:10 PM

Once your post count gets above 300 he will be forced to let you have an opinion.   Roll Eyes
I find it amusing that this comes from someone with a 266 post count. slywink

And hey, what's with the Moleneux hate? He's got better PR skills than some; he just couldn't keep his mouth shut about features that they were TRYING to implement.
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« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2008, 05:34:04 PM »

This sort of thing just seriously pushes me to disable post counts. 

On-topic, I know Fallout 3 will be different.  I'm willing to try different.  If I don't like it, well, then I can resell the game to somebody else to try and my total investment is minimal.  I don't see why people take this to heart so much - it isn't like Bethesda is personally pouring acetone into the eyes of your children for crying out loud.
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« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2008, 05:35:28 PM »

Quote from: Knightshade Dragon on March 26, 2008, 05:34:04 PM

This sort of thing just seriously pushes me to disable post counts. 

On-topic, I know Fallout 3 will be different.  I'm willing to try different.  If I don't like it, well, then I can resell the game to somebody else to try and my total investment is minimal.  I don't see why people take this to heart so much - it isn't like Bethesda is personally pouring acetone into the eyes of your children for crying out loud.

Tell that to the NMA crew. Then run.
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« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2008, 05:35:47 PM »

Quote from: morlac on March 26, 2008, 03:23:10 PM

Quote from: Xoanon on March 25, 2008, 12:55:27 PM

Sounds like Bethesda are proponents of the Peter "the incredible bullshitting man" Molyneux school of public relations.

Unfortunately, The waiting list to get in that school is long.

P.s. Welcome to the forums!  Ignore Calvin,  while he technically is a representative of the site he is not representative of the majority of folks here.  Once your post count gets above 300 he will be forced to let you have an opinion.   Roll Eyes
Oh go cry me a river.
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« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2008, 05:44:32 PM »

Quote from: Calvin on March 26, 2008, 05:35:47 PM

Quote from: morlac on March 26, 2008, 03:23:10 PM

Quote from: Xoanon on March 25, 2008, 12:55:27 PM

Sounds like Bethesda are proponents of the Peter "the incredible bullshitting man" Molyneux school of public relations.

Unfortunately, The waiting list to get in that school is long.

P.s. Welcome to the forums!  Ignore Calvin,  while he technically is a representative of the site he is not representative of the majority of folks here.  Once your post count gets above 300 he will be forced to let you have an opinion.   Roll Eyes
Oh go cry me a river.
Oh go be respectful to new forum members.
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« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2008, 06:16:04 PM »

Quote from: whiteboyskim on March 26, 2008, 05:35:28 PM

Quote from: Knightshade Dragon on March 26, 2008, 05:34:04 PM

This sort of thing just seriously pushes me to disable post counts. 

On-topic, I know Fallout 3 will be different.  I'm willing to try different.  If I don't like it, well, then I can resell the game to somebody else to try and my total investment is minimal.  I don't see why people take this to heart so much - it isn't like Bethesda is personally pouring acetone into the eyes of your children for crying out loud.

Tell that to the NMA crew. Then run.

I have.  It wasn't pretty.
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« Reply #30 on: March 26, 2008, 06:16:14 PM »

Quote from: wonderpug on March 26, 2008, 05:44:32 PM

Quote from: Calvin on March 26, 2008, 05:35:47 PM

Quote from: morlac on March 26, 2008, 03:23:10 PM

Quote from: Xoanon on March 25, 2008, 12:55:27 PM

Sounds like Bethesda are proponents of the Peter "the incredible bullshitting man" Molyneux school of public relations.

Unfortunately, The waiting list to get in that school is long.

P.s. Welcome to the forums!  Ignore Calvin,  while he technically is a representative of the site he is not representative of the majority of folks here.  Once your post count gets above 300 he will be forced to let you have an opinion.   Roll Eyes
Oh go cry me a river.
Oh go be respectful to new forum members.

Agreed. 
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« Reply #31 on: March 26, 2008, 06:25:15 PM »

Quote from: Purge on March 26, 2008, 04:42:38 PM

Quote from: morlac on March 26, 2008, 03:23:10 PM

Once your post count gets above 300 he will be forced to let you have an opinion.   Roll Eyes
I find it amusing that this comes from someone with a 266 post count. slywink

And hey, what's with the Moleneux hate? He's got better PR skills than some; he just couldn't keep his mouth shut about features that they were TRYING to implement.

Moly goes beyond excitement and into complete bullshit land.  He's been doing this since... geez, since the Bullfrog days.

It is kind of a stretch to say that Bethesday is entering Molyneux territory, however.  He sets a REALLY high bar.  I'm no Bethesda fan (not by an ICBM shot), but while they are bullshitting about the number of endings... they have a long way to go before they can accurately be mentioned alongside Molyneux.


BTW, if anyone can get a higher post count than Calvin, they win a GT cookie!
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« Reply #32 on: March 26, 2008, 06:30:11 PM »

Great, now CeeKay has a cookie to shoot for. ;)
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« Reply #33 on: March 26, 2008, 06:32:43 PM »

Quote from: unbreakable on March 25, 2008, 07:36:37 PM

Just because it says, as Fallout did, what happened after the game ends, that doesn't make each mix and match of positive/negative results is a different ending.

So saying there are 240 different endings, when you are in actuality mixing and matching between a short number of actual results... that's pretty freakin limp.

Then I'm curious how you would express it.  It's been stated that it's a permutation, and the total number of permutations has been given.  What part is BS?
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« Reply #34 on: March 26, 2008, 06:53:51 PM »

Quote
it isn't like Bethesda is personally pouring acetone into the eyes of your children for crying out loud.

they probably could and id still buy their games
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« Reply #35 on: March 26, 2008, 07:49:18 PM »

Quote from: kathode on March 26, 2008, 06:32:43 PM

Quote from: unbreakable on March 25, 2008, 07:36:37 PM

Just because it says, as Fallout did, what happened after the game ends, that doesn't make each mix and match of positive/negative results is a different ending.

So saying there are 240 different endings, when you are in actuality mixing and matching between a short number of actual results... that's pretty freakin limp.

Then I'm curious how you would express it.  It's been stated that it's a permutation, and the total number of permutations has been given.  What part is BS?

I don't see a problem with the way it was quantified.  If you have ending ABCDEF and ABCDFG to compare, they are different.  Not vastly different mind you, but different just the same.  Any way you slice it, it is better than the ending to Bioshock, as an example, which didn't take into effect any of the granularity of the decisions you made within the game. 
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« Reply #36 on: March 26, 2008, 07:54:13 PM »

Quote from: kathode on March 26, 2008, 06:32:43 PM

Quote from: unbreakable on March 25, 2008, 07:36:37 PM

Just because it says, as Fallout did, what happened after the game ends, that doesn't make each mix and match of positive/negative results is a different ending.

So saying there are 240 different endings, when you are in actuality mixing and matching between a short number of actual results... that's pretty freakin limp.
Then I'm curious how you would express it.  It's been stated that it's a permutation, and the total number of permutations has been given.  What part is BS?

Yeah, I don't get the complaints either. And there's no way in heck I'm visiting the official forums to get their opinion of the matter. biggrin

I just know that unless Bethesda does something to utterly mess with the game between now and release (scrap what they have now in previews and start completely over), I'm sure as heck going to buy this the day its released.

Reminds me - I really need to play Oblivion more...
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« Reply #37 on: March 26, 2008, 08:05:27 PM »

Quote from: kathode on March 26, 2008, 06:32:43 PM

Quote from: unbreakable on March 25, 2008, 07:36:37 PM

Just because it says, as Fallout did, what happened after the game ends, that doesn't make each mix and match of positive/negative results is a different ending.

So saying there are 240 different endings, when you are in actuality mixing and matching between a short number of actual results... that's pretty freakin limp.

Then I'm curious how you would express it.  It's been stated that it's a permutation, and the total number of permutations has been given.  What part is BS?

Well let's compare it to the endings of something like KotOR 1 or 2.  There are really just two endings- the good/bad ending.  Then, depending on what you did in the game, there are little add-ons to that ending.

Saying that getting the good ending, helping the wookies, not helping whoever, etc etc. is "one ending"... but then if you DON'T save the wookies, and do everything else the same is a DIFFERENT ending... that's bullshit.

Unless the game is going to have 240 actual unique endings, it's bullshitting.  Does that answer your question?
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« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2008, 08:45:38 PM »

Quote from: unbreakable on March 26, 2008, 08:05:27 PM

Quote from: kathode on March 26, 2008, 06:32:43 PM

Quote from: unbreakable on March 25, 2008, 07:36:37 PM

Just because it says, as Fallout did, what happened after the game ends, that doesn't make each mix and match of positive/negative results is a different ending.

So saying there are 240 different endings, when you are in actuality mixing and matching between a short number of actual results... that's pretty freakin limp.

Then I'm curious how you would express it.  It's been stated that it's a permutation, and the total number of permutations has been given.  What part is BS?

Well let's compare it to the endings of something like KotOR 1 or 2.  There are really just two endings- the good/bad ending.  Then, depending on what you did in the game, there are little add-ons to that ending.

Saying that getting the good ending, helping the wookies, not helping whoever, etc etc. is "one ending"... but then if you DON'T save the wookies, and do everything else the same is a DIFFERENT ending... that's bullshit.

Unless the game is going to have 240 actual unique endings, it's bullshitting.  Does that answer your question?

Again, 99% of games don't take any of your actions into account at the end.  KOTOR at least had some small measure of that in it, but most don't.  The whole point of the multiple endings is to get players to say "Well, what happens if I do xyz?" (e.g. set off the nuke in Megaton that I mentioned in my preview) to get them to replay the game.  Arguing over whether or not you can call a slight change a different ending is kinda silly I think.  Hell, by your measure Fallout only had a handful of endings as well.   Either way, they explained what they meant by the statement, and not after the game shipped like most devs do.
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« Reply #39 on: March 26, 2008, 09:26:42 PM »

At the end of Fallout, there was a little synopsis of most major areas that were visited. Let's say there were eight of these and there were two possible outcomes for each place. Isn't that 2^8 (or 256) possible endings? It doesn't take to much to imagine that 200 endings is not an unreasonable number. KotoR did not really have this kind of summary ending so there really only were 2 endings. Maybe he should have said over 200 possible ending combinations of outcomes due to your actions.
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