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Author Topic: ESPN Football - no more?!?!?  (Read 7665 times)
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jonsauce
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« Reply #40 on: December 14, 2004, 04:39:41 PM »

Quote
Rumors are already swirling that EA is on the hunt for the NBA and MLB licenses as well. Watch out...EA is about to own all the major sports.


They already ran Papyrus out of their NASCAR series frown  Those were my favorite racing simulations but when EA bought up the NASCAR liscence Papyrus had to quit making them.

I don't have a console to play the Sega games but I've played them with my brother on his Xbox a few times and I loved them.  I would have bought those over Madden any day if they were available on the PC.
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« Reply #41 on: December 14, 2004, 05:13:58 PM »

Quote from: "AgtFox"
Let's play a little role reversal here.  Supposedly the NFL and NFLPA put out the request for bids and 5 companies bid on the exclusivity.  You can guess the companies:

EA
Sony
Microsoft
Midway
Sega/Take Two

Would you guys be reacting the same way if one of the other 4 got the exclusive deal and not EA?  I have a feeling you wouldn't, but I could be wrong.  Most of you would probably be glad if Sega/Take Two got it, but what about the others?


Excellent point.  This is more the NFL's doing than anyone elses.  Regardless of who won the license, it's a bad thing for gamer's in general.  EA just had the deeper pockets this time.

Quote from: "jonsauce"
They already ran Papyrus out of their NASCAR series frown  Those were my favorite racing simulations but when EA bought up the NASCAR liscence Papyrus had to quit making them.


EA also had this done to them with the Formula 1 license.  EA actually made a great F1 PC game, but some console publisher forked over the bucks for the license, and the EA F1 series was no more.

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« Reply #42 on: December 14, 2004, 05:16:11 PM »

Quote from: "Devil"
Next question for me is will EA start charging $75-$100 for the game?  They could probably do it and I wouldn't be shocked.


Nah probably not, unless they manage to snatch up the licenses for the rest of their signature sports games.  It'd be hard to justify to the public that NFL costs $75, while NBA costs $40 or $50.  EA makes quite a lot of money at the $50 price point, there's no need to risk the negative PR of their fanbase by raising the price.

Now if they get all the other licenses... all bets are off.

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Ralph-Wiggum
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« Reply #43 on: December 14, 2004, 05:24:43 PM »

While it won't make a bit of difference, here's a petition to reverse the decision that's going to be sent to the NFL.
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jonsauce
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« Reply #44 on: December 14, 2004, 05:29:34 PM »

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EA also had this done to them with the Formula 1 license. EA actually made a great F1 PC game, but some console publisher forked over the bucks for the license, and the EA F1 series was no more.


That also sucked.  I was a big fan of their Formula 1 games.  I didn't realize that they quit making them because of the liscence being lost.  

I don't care what company it is that loses the liscence, if they were making good games, or even the best on the market, it sucks for the gamers.
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gellar
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« Reply #45 on: December 14, 2004, 05:33:20 PM »

Quote from: "jonsauce"
Quote
EA also had this done to them with the Formula 1 license. EA actually made a great F1 PC game, but some console publisher forked over the bucks for the license, and the EA F1 series was no more.


That also sucked.  I was a big fan of their Formula 1 games.  I didn't realize that they quit making them because of the liscence being lost.  That sucks too.

I don't care what company it is that loses the liscence, if they were making good games, or even the best on the market, it sucks for the gamers.


Yep I was a huge fan of both games.  Especially the Papyrus once, since I was actually good at those.

The good news regarding the EA F1 engine is that it's been licensed by a company to make a GTR game, which looks awesome.  Also, if you still have F1C, there are a lot of mods to bring that game current to the 2004 season.  Those are done pretty well.

Anyway, enough off topic stuff.  Fanboys can commence the EA bashing smile

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El Guapo
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« Reply #46 on: December 14, 2004, 05:53:54 PM »

Quote from: "Ralph-Wiggum"
While it won't make a bit of difference, here's a petition to reverse the decision that's going to be sent to the NFL.


I signed it, but I have to say the threat to boycott the NFL for 5 years isn't terribly credible.  Plus there are several misspellings.

But hey, it's worth a shot.
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dangerballs
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« Reply #47 on: December 14, 2004, 06:40:07 PM »

Looks like the whole deal rumor wasn't exactly true after all...


http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/05/18/news_6098784.html

edit: or I should have said that the whole rumor about the rumor not being true wasn't true.   Cool

Anyways, so much for trusting the Players Association.  And to think about how much public money goes into paying for football teams to operate with paying for stadiums and tax breaks for teams, you would think that the NFL wouldn't be so selfish.
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« Reply #48 on: December 14, 2004, 06:48:09 PM »

The article you linked to is over six months old.
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Dimmona
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« Reply #49 on: December 14, 2004, 08:00:01 PM »

Nice article on ESPN
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« Reply #50 on: December 15, 2004, 12:46:58 AM »

Quote from: "Dimmona"
I think ESPN should go for the 'ultimate customizable football game route'.  Like replace every single reference to the NFL, stadium, players,etc. with made up names, but allow the user a nice built-in utility where they can point to an IP address and download new rosters/stadiums/football league names at the click of a button.

There has to be some easy way to get around the legal issues and still get us our licensed player names :-)   Anybody remember the bad-assness that was Front Page Sports Football?  They did the same thing...


It wouldn't sell.

Think of the unwashed masses of pimply faced gamers out there -- most of them will walk into a store and say:   Look!  This game has the NFL...this game has what?   I don't even know those teams!   I'll buy this Madden one....

It's just not viable business wise for Sega to even TRY to put out a football game this coming year.   NOBODY will buy it without NFL locations/players/etc.
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« Reply #51 on: December 15, 2004, 06:25:38 AM »

Check out the CNN Money editorial

The scenario he paints is quite chilling though it would serve the NFL & NFLPA right for being so greedy and short-sighted. Good thing I don't really care about NFL games that much. If they ever touch my NHL games however I will be one pissed off consumer.
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denoginizer
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« Reply #52 on: December 15, 2004, 06:36:56 AM »

I think this move clearly shows that EA knows they were losing the war.  There was a time when EA probably could not have cared less about competition for Madden.  But over the last year ESPN football has steadily eaten away at Madden’s lead, especially on the Xbox.  I was in EB last week and I thought it was interesting that you receive $4 in trade for Madden 2005 (49.95 original price), and $8 for ESPN 2K5 (19.95 original price).  How does EA choose to combat this?  Rebuilding that aging engine?  Upgrading the line play? Having online league support that actually works?    Nah.  We’ll just buy up the license so the competition goes away.  I love football so I will probably play Madden next year if it is the only game in town.  I just hope EA actually improves the game play next year so I am not playing it SOLEY because it is the only game in town.  If I were VC I would start work today on a college football game using the next generation of that engine.  Anyone who has played NCAA 2005 on both the PS2 and Xbox would agree that EA dropped the ball on the Xbox version with regards to online play.  There is definitely room for ESPN to compete there.  

The sad thing is now there really is no motivation for EA to overhall Madden at all.  They can keep churning out the same incremental roster updates.  Am I the only one that thinks Madden 2005 actually looks worse than last years version?  They have less polygons this year in order to get the online framerate up.
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Kevin Grey
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« Reply #53 on: December 15, 2004, 01:53:53 PM »

Quote from: "denoginizer"
I think this move clearly shows that EA knows they were losing the war. There was a time when EA probably could not have cared less about competition for Madden. But over the last year ESPN football has steadily eaten away at Madden’s lead, especially on the Xbox.


You don't understand- EA had no choice.  It was the NFL who put the license up to bid.  If EA had lost it woudn't have meant they would have a difficult time competing but it would mean they couldn't make NFL games at all anymore.  That's it- lose the bid and Madden is gone forever and so is its associated hundreds of millions of annual revenue.  The only competition here was between the companies bidding on the license.  The relative quality of each competitor's games was really a non-issue- even if your football game is crap, if you are the only one with the NFL license you will make hordes of money.
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AgtFox
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« Reply #54 on: December 15, 2004, 02:29:00 PM »

Quote from: "Kevin Grey"
Quote from: "denoginizer"
I think this move clearly shows that EA knows they were losing the war. There was a time when EA probably could not have cared less about competition for Madden. But over the last year ESPN football has steadily eaten away at Madden’s lead, especially on the Xbox.


You don't understand- EA had no choice.  It was the NFL who put the license up to bid.  If EA had lost it woudn't have meant they would have a difficult time competing but it would mean they couldn't make NFL games at all anymore.  That's it- lose the bid and Madden is gone forever and so is its associated hundreds of millions of annual revenue.  The only competition here was between the companies bidding on the license.  The relative quality of each competitor's games was really a non-issue- even if your football game is crap, if you are the only one with the NFL license you will make hordes of money.

thumbsup

Kevin is right on the money, although I understand why the EA haters out there can't look past it for the most part.
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« Reply #55 on: December 15, 2004, 02:47:51 PM »

The NFL 2K series has been better than Madden since it was first released on Dreamcast. Don't ever let anyone tell you differently.

This is a shame and I still won't buy EA's football game. You better believe that Action Replays will sell much better when people realize you can have the real rosters even without the NFL License with an action replay, modchip or other method of getting a file onto the box. All Sega needs to do is think of a clever way to market this capability, maybe even include an action replay with the game. Hell, if they are still selling the game for $19.99, + the price of an action replay, you're right at $50, the same price as EA's game. Then allow players to use the rosters online and EA just wasted $500 million.
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« Reply #56 on: December 15, 2004, 03:10:25 PM »

Two Points :

1 - I did not know this about EA not having a choice.  I did not realize that the NFL "made" this happen.  If that is truly the case... I have no ill will.  

2 - I don't think it's that easy Eco.  I think this whole things goes beyond just getting player names and jersey numbers.  I was assuming it includes coaches, player likenesses, actual uniforms with real logos, stadium likenesses, stadium names, etc, etc...

I am thinking this is worse than some of you realize.

Correct me if I'm wrong - as maybe (and hopefully) I am.

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Eco-Logic
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« Reply #57 on: December 15, 2004, 03:16:50 PM »

Gah, that sucks to even think about Lockdown.  Freaking ruined my week.  I was looking so forward to playing ESPN Football on Xbox 2.  I hate that EA crap.
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« Reply #58 on: December 15, 2004, 03:23:02 PM »

Sega/VC will just have to make the best damn NCAA game now.
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« Reply #59 on: December 15, 2004, 03:25:12 PM »

This is what a VC employee had to say about it:

Quote
"Look mom, no balls" --

I've been getting flooded with emails about the little news story that came out yesterday about a certain competitor buying a certain set of licenses exclusively, so I figured I'd say what I can right here so my inbox can stop feeling like an overused two-dollar whore on welfare check day.

First, even though I get to wear pajamas to work, this is a business and it was a smart business move by that company. If you can't beat your competition by quality alone, then you outspend them. They always did this just by having a development team that was 5 times our size and a huge marketing budget that we couldn't possibly match, but that wasn't enough so they figured their only chance to keep the market theirs was to buy the license exclusively. Basically, they got daddy to buy the ball and decided to take it home because they weren't getting their way. I think it's a spineless thing to do, but it's a business and they know that regardless of what the outcry might be by some, they'll still end up buying the game in the end because there'll be no other option.

Second, there's really no need to worry about me or my job status at VC right now. So, while I appreciate the emails, there's no need to feel bad for me in any way, shape or form. Worst case scenario would be things not working out and the **** hitting the fan in about a year, but I don't foresee it happening right now. And even then, just today I got three job offers thrown in my lap, so employement isn't a worry of mine at the moment. Also, my desire to stick it out at VC is higher now than ever before.

Third, moreso than in the past, I cannot talk about what the company is doing. Though, I will say that we're definitely not going to roll over and die. The gridiron fight might've been a toss-up, but the quality of our hockey, NBA, college hoops and baseball games really out-classed theirs in a big way. Plus, we have a LOT of talent on the football team. How else could we make a game that was just as good as Madden while having a staff that was only a small fraction of their size? Simple. Our engineers, artists and designers are amazing, very dedicated, efficient and hard working." - Dave Zdyrko
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« Reply #60 on: December 15, 2004, 03:34:47 PM »

OK...first of all, Take Two dropped hints that their football offering on the next generation systems would be higher than $19.99, although they did not comment on how much NFL 2K6 would be.

Sega/Take Two really can't market that you can change the player names and all that.  That would be in violation of the deal made between the NFL/NFLPA and EA.

As for #1 on Lockdown's post.  Well, the NFL and NFLPA asked for bids for the exclusive rights to their licenses.  5 companies bid on it, which I guessed at earlier in this thread.  EA most likely overbid so that they would for sure get it because it would be a devastating blow to EA to lose that license given that Madden is their #1 selling game when a Sims game does not come out.

It's not as much of a blow to the other companies, even Sega/Take Two because they sold 2K5 at such a low price point in order to grab a bigger percentage of the market so later on they could boost it up since people saw that it was better than Madden (not that I necessarily agree with that, but I know many of you do).

Let's look at numbers.  Supposedly on PS2 and Xbox these were the sales (up to the end of November):

Madden 2005: 3 million x $50 (I have no clue how many bought the 15th anniversary edition on PS2 for $60) - $150 million

ESPN NFL 2K5: 2 million x $20 - $40 million

The year before it was:

Madden 2004: 5 million x $50 - $250 million

ESPN NFL 2K4: 450,000 x $50 - $22.5 million

Obviously, EA buying the license will increase sales and pay for the license itself.  EA had to overbid in order to keep the cash cow.  Technically, Take Two/Sega only made $17.5 million more with the price drop, but they reached the goal they wanted which was more of an imprint in the market.  Meanwhile EA is currently licking a $100 million wound from last year to this year, although sales in December are not taken into account yet...and lots of people get the game for Christmas, but now it's at the new price point.

Anyway, I laugh at all the boycott callouts.  The NFL and NFLPA created this mess, EA just did the only thing it could...win the bid for the exclusive license at a major cost.  If the NFL and NFLPA weren't so greedy and wanted a big payout (I think current licenses cost in the "under $10 million" per year amount for each company) we'd see NFL football games from everyone again.  And you can bet the NBA sees stars in its eyes now...it's the easier of the other big two (NBA and MLB) to do exclusive deals with.

Whether this means EA Tiburon rests on its laurels or not, I'm going to guess it won't.  Obviously they are working on next year's game, but I'm sure they are also working on the next generation system game as well and we'll see what kind of game they bring out.
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« Reply #61 on: December 15, 2004, 03:42:47 PM »

From a Business standpoint, of course it makes sense.  I understand that it was the NFL's decision.

That doesn't make it any better.  EA's football game is a freaking mess compared to ESPN 2K5.  It has hardly changed since 2000 and anyone who has played both for any length of time typically comes out liking ESPN better.

This is a travesty.
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« Reply #62 on: December 15, 2004, 03:59:13 PM »

Yeah, I doubt that Sega/Take Two were even close in the running for the bid.  Sega's been hurting financially.  Take Two is certainly much better off but several hundred million on a license would likely be too much for them.

The real surprise is MS and Sony.  I'm guessing Sony didn't push too hard for it- EA already has a great relationship with them and Sony hasn't exactly had its coffers full of excess cash recently.  MS on the other hand- what a coup it would have been for Xbox 2 if it had been the exclusive console for NFL football!  Hell, they could have followed up by buying Visual Concepts for a likely fraction of the cost for the NFL license.  

Re: ESPN's price point- no way was it going to last.  At $20 MSRP how much goes back to the publisher?  Maybe $5-8?  Even if they sell 2 million copies that's only a net revenue of 10-16 million.  With the licensing costs I doubt they would even make a profit off of that.  The price point let ESPN make outstanding inroads in marketshare but I doubt it actually brought in much more revenue than 2K4.
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« Reply #63 on: December 15, 2004, 04:18:16 PM »

Although I don't care for the way EA chooses to run its business and the shoddy way it apparently treats its employees, I can not fault them in this situation.  They just did what they had to do given the circumstances laid out before them by the NFL and NFLPA.  On the other hand I personally feel Madden is a better football game than the ESPN offering so I'm not going to be missing anything.  If the game starts to stagnate, which is a very likely outcome, then I'll have an issue.
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« Reply #64 on: December 15, 2004, 04:51:11 PM »

Quote from: "Kevin Grey"
You don't understand- EA had no choice.  It was the NFL who put the license up to bid.  If EA had lost it woudn't have meant they would have a difficult time competing but it would mean they couldn't make NFL games at all anymore.  That's it- lose the bid and Madden is gone forever and so is its associated hundreds of millions of annual revenue.  The only competition here was between the companies bidding on the license.  The relative quality of each competitor's games was really a non-issue- even if your football game is crap, if you are the only one with the NFL license you will make hordes of money.


I agree with you that if the NFL initiated the deal then EA is not really to blame.  But I am not sure that it is in the NFL's best interest to have only 1 maker of games with thier endorsment.  Who's to say EA did not initiate the deal?  I don't think the NFL held a gun to EA's head and said "pay $300M or we will give the exclusive rights to ESPN."  I would be interested to know how much the respective companies paid to use the NFL liscense before.  Does EA's 300M surpass what the NFL would get if 5 or 6 companies paid for the liscense?
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« Reply #65 on: December 15, 2004, 05:09:49 PM »

Quote from: "denoginizer"
Does EA's 300M surpass what the NFL would get if 5 or 6 companies paid for the liscense?

Yes, it easily surpasses it.  I think license deals are sold for under $10 million every year for the NFL/NFLPA combined for all the companies (meaning each one is in the single million category).  It's very much like the overpriced TV contracts for NFL football.  I believe the last deals by Fox and CBS cost $8 billion over 6 years.  Yep, deal completed in November.  Here's the old deal vs. new deal:
Quote
Fox will pay $4.3 billion, or $712.5 million per year for the NFC games, the source said, while CBS will pay $3.7 billion, or $622.5 million a year. In the current deal, Fox is paying $550 million a year and CBS is paying $500 million.

The NFL saw the ability to make money and they went for it.  I'm not sure any company pushed them into it, but we probably will never truly know that.
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« Reply #66 on: December 15, 2004, 05:38:50 PM »

8 billion dollars!  :shock:

Where in the hell does all that money go?
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« Reply #67 on: December 15, 2004, 06:00:11 PM »

Quote
I agree with you that if the NFL initiated the deal then EA is not really to blame. But I am not sure that it is in the NFL's best interest to have only 1 maker of games with thier endorsment. Who's to say EA did not initiate the deal?


The Gamespot report linked earlier stated that the NFL offered the license up to bid and five companies bid on it.  This wasn't EA initiated- it was the NFL's idea.  

And yes, the NFL will make more money this way.  The market is down to really only two viable contenders.  Sony has all but given up and MS is officially "sitting out" for the time being.  At approx 10 million per license with approx 3 or 4 licenses per year, the NFL stands to make more by selling the rights outright for $300 million over five years.
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« Reply #68 on: December 15, 2004, 06:49:11 PM »

Quote
The Gamespot report linked earlier stated that the NFL offered the license up to bid and five companies bid on it. This wasn't EA initiated- it was the NFL's idea.

I'm not sure you can jump to that conclusion.  EA could have easily said "We want exclusive rights" and the NFL responded by offering it up to the highest bidder.
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« Reply #69 on: December 15, 2004, 09:57:45 PM »

Quote from: "Guy Incognito"
Quote
I'm not sure you can jump to that conclusion.  EA could have easily said "We want exclusive rights" and the NFL responded by offering it up to the highest bidder.


I guess we will proabably never know for sure.  Whether you are a fan of Madden or ESPN, the bottom line is it is the consumer who gets the shaft.  Lack of compitition can only hurt the quality of Madden for the next 5 years.  
Sega can still market a football game though. They can create a "footall league construction kit"  Use the same engine and online league structure.  Add online franchise mode and instead of using NFL properties, market the game as a completely customizable offline or online experience.  I have been waiting for this on the PC since the FBPro series went belly up.  There is certainly room in the footaball game market for 2 games. Maybe this unfortunate turn of events could lead to something positive.  I hope Sega/VC is willing to take the gamble instead of scrapping that engine.
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« Reply #70 on: December 15, 2004, 10:18:08 PM »

Chris Morris over at CNN made a really good point about this sale - the term is only 5 years, but it might as well be for life.  The deal gives EA exclusive rights to the likeness of players, meaning that no other companies have access to players for face scans and such.  

Do you really think that 5 years from now a company is going to want to spend the $$ to update the models on 1400 players/coaches?  The deal pretty much eliminates all competition so that in 5 years EA will be able to name their price for the license.

Great business move for EA.   Horrible, horrible move for gamers.
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« Reply #71 on: December 16, 2004, 05:14:39 AM »

There have been other articles out there that have said that EA has actively pursued the NFL and NFLPA for exclusivity.  Just because multiple companies were able to bid on the contract, it doesn't mean that EA didn't have some type of hand in what happened.

I admit, I didn't see any fault at first with what EA did, but it sounds to me like there is more going on behind the scenes that what we are getting in PR pieces.
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« Reply #72 on: December 16, 2004, 06:43:17 AM »

Quote from: "Dimmona"
Do you really think that 5 years from now a company is going to want to spend the $$ to update the models on 1400 players/coaches?


Perhaps that company will be Microsoft when it launches XSN NFL Football 2011 for the Xbox 3.

I skimmed through the 3 pages of this thread. I think it sucks that the NFL initiated this bidding war, but why is everyone so pissed at EA for getting the license?  Would everyone who's mad at EA be equally mad at ESPN if they got the license?
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AgtFox
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« Reply #73 on: December 16, 2004, 12:46:44 PM »

Quote from: "Draco"
I skimmed through the 3 pages of this thread. I think it sucks that the NFL initiated this bidding war, but why is everyone so pissed at EA for getting the license?  Would everyone who's mad at EA be equally mad at ESPN if they got the license?

We already touched on that...many would be happy if Sega/Take Two/VC got the license.
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Chaz
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« Reply #74 on: December 16, 2004, 01:36:49 PM »

I think what a lot of us are mad about is more that EA doesn't seem to put a lot of effort into it's football game, and yet now we're stuck with it.  I'm personally mad for that reason, mad that this means EA will have even less reason to improve in the future, more reason to increase prices, and worried that the EA model is the direction that the industry is headed in.  EA loves to take a good franchise and release nothing but sequel after sequel.  If you're happy playing generic Need for Speed games, yet another generic Bond game, another lackluster Medal of Honor game, and the same sports game you've been playing for five years, then feel free to support EA.  I won't be.
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Mike T
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« Reply #75 on: December 17, 2004, 03:35:11 AM »

Quote
The only real change would be to allow people to use their rosters/teams online. Everythig else is in place already. Flying Finn's NHL Updater is a working example!

Either Sega does this or, it's over. More likely that it's over but it can be done!


I admire your optimism.  There's a difference, and a large one at that, between possible and probable.  Take Two is in the business of making money, not making games.  Making a game with no licensing is a sure way to lose money.  The number of geeks willing to go through the work of building and naming stadiums, rosters, and uniforms is not going to approach anything near what they could get if they had the license.

-Create a League: The ability to create a whole new league! Allows users to create their own league from city to team names right down to stadiums.

Without any of the NFL franchise logos or uniforms!

-Expanded Create A Player: Change names/attributes of every player in the league!

Instead of modifying a couple of roster spots here and there you can create 55 players for 32 teams by hand!

PC Link (Cable Included): Download Software from Sega.Com for easy league and roster creation and then connect your X-Box/PS2 right to your PC and download everything!

Except if you're if you're not an XBox owner, and oh yeah, everything doesn't include NFL logos, uniforms, or anything else.

-Custom Online Rosters: Take everything you've made online! Play with your newly created teams and players against people from around the world!!

Just don't forget that it won't be NFL!

One other small note, ESPN will be exiting out of their deal with Take Two because the whole point of their association with the game was that it was ESPN presents the NFL.

Yes, you're right, those things could happen.  But the won't.
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stiffler
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« Reply #76 on: December 17, 2004, 03:48:24 AM »

Quote from: "Mike T"
One other small note, ESPN will be exiting out of their deal with Take Two because the whole point of their association with the game was that it was ESPN presents the NFL.


Considering one of the ESPN NFL shows already has a giant spinning EA Sports logo on the front of the desk and they use Madden for all their cute demo stuff I don't find that too shocking.

Kinda hard to put too much stock in a licensing agreement when the company doesn't even stand behind the product with their name on the cover.  Of course Disney (through ABC/ESPN) employs Madden so I guess it's a tangled web.  Well, at least ESPN Radio pimps the ESPN games in their give-away promos.

Discounting the EA thing a moment, imagine if Sony or Microsoft picked up the license and made the NFL specific to their console...
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denoginizer
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« Reply #77 on: December 17, 2004, 03:49:36 AM »

I would not be surprised if Sega releases NFL 2K6.  I'm sure that they are already working on it.  But 2K7 and beyond are very doubtful.
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Chaz
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« Reply #78 on: December 17, 2004, 05:30:26 AM »

Except that they can't even call it NFL 2k6 now.  I'll have to be Sega Football 2k6 at best.  All the brand association/loyalty that they finally managed to build this year just went down the crapper.
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Beer Goggles
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« Reply #79 on: December 17, 2004, 03:01:16 PM »

I gave up on EA Sports in the late 90's.  I will stick to text sims.
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