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Author Topic: EA Employee - 360 failure rate between 30%-50%  (Read 2411 times)
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Ralph-Wiggum
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« on: August 30, 2006, 07:38:18 PM »

Yikes. 30 - 50% failure rate? That's a bit much for me to believe. But I'm pretty sure it's higher than the 3% - 5% MS has claimed.
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« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2006, 07:41:07 PM »

This is a non-story unless it's a senior exec.
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« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2006, 07:54:05 PM »

QT3's been discussing this for a few days (with some really funny fanboi drama mixed in to boot).

The short of it:  it's a wad of shit.  30-50% failure rate and MS would be getting sued to high heaven.  Maybe this dude's office had three 360s, one of which died, the other of which froze once and which he thinks might die.  Bam, 30-50% failure rate.  gogo sample size.

Higher than the 3-5%?  Even that's doubtful.  And if it was, it wouldn't be much higher, maybe a +1-2% on each end.

Now, you have to understand, "failure rate" means 'hardware failure not caused by improper use or handling.'  Remember, an individual person might be intelligent, but people on a whole are idiots.  The 360 is undoubtedly the most sensitive/delicate console to date, and crap you could get away with on the older consoles -- like leaving them on rugs/carpets/beds/enclosed spaces, or moving them around alot, bumping them, etc, just doesn't fly with the 360.  This is probably one of the first systems where "casual" misuse or mishandling can and will cause hardware failure. 

Console users have been spoiled by their system's durability -- these are just the growing pains of moving from systems built like VHSes or CD players, which can take a hit or bad ventilation and not skip a beat, to systems built like high-powered computers, where shit's sensitive, son.
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denoginizer
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« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2006, 08:01:09 PM »

Maybe EA just makes their 360s work 80 hour weeks with no overtime pay and crappy woking conditions. 
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« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2006, 08:06:30 PM »

Quote from: denoginizer on August 30, 2006, 08:01:09 PM

Maybe EA just makes their 360s work 80 hour weeks with no overtime pay and crappy woking conditions. 

 icon_biggrin
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Devil
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« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2006, 08:16:57 PM »

That's interesting coming from a company who has a 90% failure rate with their software.
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« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2006, 08:20:34 PM »

Quote from: Devil on August 30, 2006, 08:16:57 PM

That's interesting coming from a company who has a 90% failure rate with their software.

Oh snap.
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« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2006, 08:35:32 PM »

Quote from: whiteboyskim on August 30, 2006, 08:20:34 PM

Quote from: Devil on August 30, 2006, 08:16:57 PM

That's interesting coming from a company who has a 90% failure rate with their software.

Oh snap.

Nice.

However, I've read somewhere else that people have already said that this 'news' bit was nothing but bull. Not sure where offhand though.
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« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2006, 08:39:11 PM »

Quote from: Destructor on August 30, 2006, 08:35:32 PM

Quote from: whiteboyskim on August 30, 2006, 08:20:34 PM

Quote from: Devil on August 30, 2006, 08:16:57 PM

That's interesting coming from a company who has a 90% failure rate with their software.

Oh snap.

Nice.

However, I've read somewhere else that people have already said that this 'news' bit was nothing but bull. Not sure where offhand though.

Maybe 5 posts above your own?   icon_biggrin
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Arkon
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« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2006, 08:54:23 PM »

Quote from: warning on August 30, 2006, 08:39:11 PM

Quote from: Destructor on August 30, 2006, 08:35:32 PM

Quote from: whiteboyskim on August 30, 2006, 08:20:34 PM

Quote from: Devil on August 30, 2006, 08:16:57 PM

That's interesting coming from a company who has a 90% failure rate with their software.

Oh snap.

Nice.

However, I've read somewhere else that people have already said that this 'news' bit was nothing but bull. Not sure where offhand though.

Maybe 5 posts above your own?   icon_biggrin

Oh Double Snap??!!

 icon_cool
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« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2006, 09:20:28 PM »

Quote from: Arkon on August 30, 2006, 08:54:23 PM

Quote from: warning on August 30, 2006, 08:39:11 PM

Quote from: Destructor on August 30, 2006, 08:35:32 PM

Quote from: whiteboyskim on August 30, 2006, 08:20:34 PM

Quote from: Devil on August 30, 2006, 08:16:57 PM

That's interesting coming from a company who has a 90% failure rate with their software.

Oh snap.

Nice.

However, I've read somewhere else that people have already said that this 'news' bit was nothing but bull. Not sure where offhand though.

Maybe 5 posts above your own?   icon_biggrin

Oh Double Snap??!!

 icon_cool

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« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2006, 10:47:45 PM »

Quote from: denoginizer on August 30, 2006, 08:01:09 PM

Maybe EA just makes their 360s work 80 hour weeks with no overtime pay and crappy woking conditions. 

I actually starting laughing out loud. Rare, that.
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« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2006, 12:29:06 AM »

Quote from: warning on August 30, 2006, 09:20:28 PM

Quote from: Arkon on August 30, 2006, 08:54:23 PM

Quote from: warning on August 30, 2006, 08:39:11 PM

Quote from: Destructor on August 30, 2006, 08:35:32 PM

Quote from: whiteboyskim on August 30, 2006, 08:20:34 PM

Quote from: Devil on August 30, 2006, 08:16:57 PM

That's interesting coming from a company who has a 90% failure rate with their software.

Oh snap.

Nice.

However, I've read somewhere else that people have already said that this 'news' bit was nothing but bull. Not sure where offhand though.

Maybe 5 posts above your own?   icon_biggrin

Oh Double Snap??!!

 icon_cool



I think this really requires a:

Spoiler for Hiden:
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Kobra
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« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2006, 12:30:26 AM »

Quote from: Ralph-Wiggum on August 30, 2006, 07:38:18 PM

Yikes. 30 - 50% failure rate? That's a bit much for me to believe. But I'm pretty sure it's higher than the 3% - 5% MS has claimed.

My buddy is a District Manager for EB. He told me last month when I was thinking of buying one, that the failure rate in his cluster of stores was 1 out of 3 units.   Which is why Costco came up as the only logical place to purchase one in another thread.  (lifetime refund policy)
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ChaoZ
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« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2006, 01:00:56 AM »

Based on annecdotal evidence on the forums, I would agree with that assessment (30-50%). By my estimates, about half of 360 owners on this forum has had some sort of problem which required warranty work or replacement. I just hope that the new CPU will fix these problems for MS, because they're not getting my dough until it has more reliability.
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Arkon
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« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2006, 01:58:26 AM »

I of course have had quite a few issues with my 360.  Everyone here pretty much knows this.  However I am sorry, but annecdotal evidence on a gaming forum is hardly proof.  Also as a former EB manager, it was not often that customers would bring back systems that were "broken" yet tested out just fine.  Most managers don't bother to test the systems.  I always tested every system brought back and usually the customer was just trying to get one over on the store.  If 1 out of every 3 units were failing MS would have lawsuits on thier hands.  While I think it is higher than the claimed 3%-5%  I suspect it is actually somewhere around 5%-8% tops. 

We can all claim annecdotal evidence...hell I could tell you about the fact that out of the 30-35 360 owners I personally know, mine is the only system with problems, it is still annecdotal evidence.  Forum polls are rubbish as well.  In the end all we can go on is MS's numbers.
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« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2006, 06:26:50 AM »

Quote from: ChaoZ on August 31, 2006, 01:00:56 AM

Based on annecdotal evidence on the forums, I would agree with that assessment (30-50%). By my estimates, about half of 360 owners on this forum has had some sort of problem which required warranty work or replacement. I just hope that the new CPU will fix these problems for MS, because they're not getting my dough until it has more reliability.

Annecdotal evidence from gaming forums is the basis for something being true... Roll Eyes

Usually don't agree with LE on much but he's right that if it was anywhere near even 30% then MS would be facing class action lawsuits on the 360 and it would be all over the news.
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« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2006, 12:19:38 PM »

Quote from: Arkon
I always tested every system brought back and usually the customer was just trying to get one over on the store.

This reminds me of a point someone made on QT3- specifically, if a fault is intermittent, or even game specific, how much testing do you have to do until you can replicate what the user experiences?  The point they made was maybe the reason that so many people have had a string of defective units is because the units are shipped back to MS, who doesn't find an immediate issue with them, so MS uses them in their "refurbished" pool to send out to others as replacements. 
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« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2006, 12:38:49 PM »

Quote from: CeeKay on August 31, 2006, 12:29:06 AM

Quote from: warning on August 30, 2006, 09:20:28 PM

Quote from: Arkon on August 30, 2006, 08:54:23 PM

Quote from: warning on August 30, 2006, 08:39:11 PM

Quote from: Destructor on August 30, 2006, 08:35:32 PM

Quote from: whiteboyskim on August 30, 2006, 08:20:34 PM

Quote from: Devil on August 30, 2006, 08:16:57 PM

That's interesting coming from a company who has a 90% failure rate with their software.

Oh snap.

Nice.

However, I've read somewhere else that people have already said that this 'news' bit was nothing but bull. Not sure where offhand though.

Maybe 5 posts above your own?   icon_biggrin

Oh Double Snap??!!

 icon_cool



I think this really requires a:

Spoiler for Hiden:

And Ceekay once again wins the Internet.  That picture is the stuff of forum legend.

'Oh My!' is a phrase I can never hear or say again without conjuring up that picture from the original post long ago...

Of course, if I'm not mistaken, the original didn't have the japanese writing on the guy's face...

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Arkon
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« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2006, 12:43:07 PM »

Quote from: Kevin Grey on August 31, 2006, 12:19:38 PM

Quote from: Arkon
I always tested every system brought back and usually the customer was just trying to get one over on the store.

This reminds me of a point someone made on QT3- specifically, if a fault is intermittent, or even game specific, how much testing do you have to do until you can replicate what the user experiences?  The point they made was maybe the reason that so many people have had a string of defective units is because the units are shipped back to MS, who doesn't find an immediate issue with them, so MS uses them in their "refurbished" pool to send out to others as replacements. 

It all depends.  For example, I consistently got PS2's back to my store and the customers would say that the system wouldn't read either blue discs or silver discs.  Easy enough, try 5-7 games of that disc type.  Some issues were not easily tested, and some were some obscure defect that could never possibly be found in the scope of what I could test.
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« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2006, 12:48:51 PM »

That photo should win the pulitzer prize.

Once again Ceekay you've derailed my entire day.
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« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2006, 01:39:49 PM »

Quote from: Jumangi on August 31, 2006, 06:26:50 AM

Quote from: ChaoZ on August 31, 2006, 01:00:56 AM

Based on annecdotal evidence on the forums, I would agree with that assessment (30-50%). By my estimates, about half of 360 owners on this forum has had some sort of problem which required warranty work or replacement. I just hope that the new CPU will fix these problems for MS, because they're not getting my dough until it has more reliability.

Annecdotal evidence from gaming forums is the basis for something being true... Roll Eyes

Usually don't agree with LE on much but he's right that if it was anywhere near even 30% then MS would be facing class action lawsuits on the 360 and it would be all over the news.

Okay, even if it doesn't mean it's 100% true, isn't it a pretty good indicator that they are well above the 3-5% failure rate? If I talk to 10 friends across different geographic regions and 4-5 people report having to send their units back to Microsoft, yes it may mean we're an unlucky bunch, but it should also lead you to reconsider how reliable the machines are. Just because we're gamers doesn't mean the machines should be less reliable for us. It's not like we bash them with a brick or anything.

Now, if we take the assumption that failure rates are at 30%, can we come up with some reasons why there are no class action suits?

1. Microsoft has been good about providing service... so far.
2. Most units are failing before the warranty period is up, and MS is even offering service to some outside warranty (whereas the Sony "Read Error" problem happened to most outside of warranty)
3. People are only now starting to realize that a lot of people's units are failing as well, gathering reliable information about failure rates is difficult.
4. Coverage of the topic is also minimal because of #3. Also, coverage of video games has always been minimal in the mass media.
5. People who fault the reliability of the Xbox 360 are immediately branded as Sony fanboys.

Besides, if you hear Microsoft say the failure rates are under 3% and you hear 4-5 of your friends say they returned the system, who would you believe more?
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« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2006, 01:43:12 PM »

I know for a fact the failure rate is at least 50%. My original failed and my replacement has locked up once. Do the math! nod
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« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2006, 02:08:56 PM »

If I owned an Xbox360 that failed, I would file a class action myself, at the very least, to get to the bottom of the issue.  Someone should call Touhy, they're the ones doing my 2 of my lawsuits right now, and the ones my friend used to file a class action against UbiSoft for using Starforce.

http://www.touhylaw.com/index.shtml



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« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2006, 02:15:01 PM »

Quote from: ATB on August 31, 2006, 12:48:51 PM

That photo should win the pulitzer prize.

Once again Ceekay you've derailed my entire day.

Already?  This early?  Is that a record?  icon_wink icon_smile
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« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2006, 02:16:57 PM »

Quote from: ChaoZ on August 31, 2006, 01:39:49 PM


Now, if we take the assumption that failure rates are at 30%, can we come up with some reasons why there are no class action suits?

1. Microsoft has been good about providing service... so far.
2. Most units are failing before the warranty period is up, and MS is even offering service to some outside warranty (whereas the Sony "Read Error" problem happened to most outside of warranty)
3. People are only now starting to realize that a lot of people's units are failing as well, gathering reliable information about failure rates is difficult.
4. Coverage of the topic is also minimal because of #3. Also, coverage of video games has always been minimal in the mass media.
5. People who fault the reliability of the Xbox 360 are immediately branded as Sony fanboys.

Besides, if you hear Microsoft say the failure rates are under 3% and you hear 4-5 of your friends say they returned the system, who would you believe more?

Any more than Sony saying their installed customer base is over 100Million since they've shipped that many, when I know people who have gone through 3-4 machines with full-on hardware failures (Drives not reading disks, etc)?

1) Correction: MS has been excellent with service (40,000 foot view, not saying they haven't had problems). They have had a commitment to that service since Xbox1.
2) Speculative at best. Where is "MOST" coming from? You state all people are within warranty, and those outside warranty are being supported as if they ARE covered? ... how is this a bad thing were it true?
3) "People are only now" - once again, this is subjective and not at all a disputable point. Most people think red looks more like blue than green. Gathering of failure rates is in fact, VERY easy. When systems are returned to GameStop/ Babbages/EB Games/Costco/etc.. where do you think they go? Back on the shelves? They're shipped back to the mfgr/vendor for repair/salvage/refurb so they can then use them as replacement units for future hardware failures. With every unit costing over 400 bux, you're telling me the vendor (MS in this case) isn't watching this closely? Do you seriously think with all the levels of management people wouldn't be having their walking papers handed to them for allowing the company to lose money hand over fist for poor management of their resources? MS still answers to their stock-holders; this isn't some closed system where no one is interested in the facts.
4) Coverage in media is minimal?  saywhat You mean to tell me HotCoffee wasn't noticed? All the grandstanding by US government officials isn't in the news every other week? The demonization of video gaming is very much alive and well. Oh, and Microsoft is one of the largest companies in the world. A world-wide product launch failure rate of more than 10% is likely to garner just a bit of bad press. Not just in Local / National, but also in the financial news.
5) Sony fanboys ARE touting this info to try to sway the people within their realm of influence away from a product that has been on the market for almost a year now. They fall within the group maintaining a 1:3 to even 1:2 hardware failure ratio.

As a person who does tech support (and has done so for both internal and public user base), let me tell you that PEBKAC, ID-10t users is a bigger cause of problems than products themselves. People don't read manuals, they just plug shit in and expect it to work as THEY see fit to use it. In this case it's not the non-tech people who have a problem; it's the know-it-all tech people. The ones who've owned other consoles, and like LE stated, treated them less like the delicate hardware they are. The non-tech people are more likely to read the manual since they're outside their comfort zone.

The counter to the % statisticr is that since MS is so lienient in its warranty, people take advantage of it. I, for instance, have cashed in on my extended warranty twice already, just because I could. The first time was due to my 360 making noise (my house was under construction and the 360 was subjected to significant amounts of drywall dust) and the second time was just because it was running slow with a game. I didn't try any other games out; I didn't care much to. I also wanted to take out the ext. warranty again so that when they redesign (or release a new 360 with HD-DVD) that i can cash in on it in a year. It's a grey area of abusing the warranty, but the fact is that my first 360 with a can of air and laying on it's side instead of upright would still be working fine for me today. I am a VERY satisfied MS customer, and know (after being through 3 systems and having one since november, 2005) that it is a sound product.
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« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2006, 02:20:57 PM »

Quote from: -Lord Ebonstone- on August 30, 2006, 07:54:05 PM

QT3's been discussing this for a few days (with some really funny fanboi drama mixed in to boot).

The short of it:  it's a wad of shit.  30-50% failure rate and MS would be getting sued to high heaven.  Maybe this dude's office had three 360s, one of which died, the other of which froze once and which he thinks might die.  Bam, 30-50% failure rate.  gogo sample size.

Higher than the 3-5%?  Even that's doubtful.  And if it was, it wouldn't be much higher, maybe a +1-2% on each end.

Now, you have to understand, "failure rate" means 'hardware failure not caused by improper use or handling.'  Remember, an individual person might be intelligent, but people on a whole are idiots.  The 360 is undoubtedly the most sensitive/delicate console to date, and crap you could get away with on the older consoles -- like leaving them on rugs/carpets/beds/enclosed spaces, or moving them around alot, bumping them, etc, just doesn't fly with the 360.  This is probably one of the first systems where "casual" misuse or mishandling can and will cause hardware failure. 

Console users have been spoiled by their system's durability -- these are just the growing pains of moving from systems built like VHSes or CD players, which can take a hit or bad ventilation and not skip a beat, to systems built like high-powered computers, where shit's sensitive, son.

Well said.
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« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2006, 02:32:18 PM »

Quote from: Kobra on August 31, 2006, 02:08:56 PM

If I owned an Xbox360 that failed, I would file a class action myself, at the very least, to get to the bottom of the issue.  Someone should call Touhy, they're the ones doing my 2 of my lawsuits right now, and the ones my friend used to file a class action against UbiSoft for using Starforce.

http://www.touhylaw.com/index.shtml





Woah, hold up now. A machine breaking is not worthy of a class action lawsuit, in and of itself. If the transmission tears up on your 2003 Chevy Corvette lets say, would you try to sue GM? Parts fail, machines break, and although almost all new consoles suffer problems, unless they are so bad that it's obviously a design problem, it's gonna be difficult to take on a company like Microsoft and prove anything. There are just too many variables in play that could cause failure.

Also, forums are a TERRIBLE barometer for true problems. Think about it, people that do have problems are gonna be the squeaky wheels (as they should be) so it's obvious they will be the ones you see the most on forums, when talking about bad units.

I have no stats to back up my prediction, but I would guess the failure rate is no higher than 10%. Still too high, but we don't know how many of those failures are from mishandling or otherwise not taking care of your system.

I have a bad feeling the launch PS3 is gonna make the 360 look like the perfect machine though, because there is no way Sony's quality control is gonna be good with the way they are gonna slap these things together to rush them out.
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« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2006, 02:35:20 PM »

Well I'm bored at work so I'll start a poll.

Edit: Here's the poll - http://www.gamingtrend.com/forums/index.php/topic,14696
« Last Edit: August 31, 2006, 02:47:47 PM by warning » Logged
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« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2006, 02:46:01 PM »

Quote from: warning on August 31, 2006, 02:35:20 PM

Well I'm bored at work so I'll start a poll.

Don't you mean you will try and then fail miserably?

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« Reply #30 on: August 31, 2006, 02:46:52 PM »

Quote from: Arkon on August 31, 2006, 02:46:01 PM

Quote from: warning on August 31, 2006, 02:35:20 PM

Well I'm bored at work so I'll start a poll.

Don't you mean you will try and then fail miserably?

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« Reply #31 on: August 31, 2006, 02:48:51 PM »

I have never had a single problem with my 360 and all my friends that got theirs on launch day still have their original units and have reported zero problems. I think there are some out there that have received bad units since it is a new system but I think the majority of the issues are people abusing the warranty or not knowing how to treat the systems. I am also in tech support and can say that the user is usually to blame in allot of instances.

So if I do math like other people in this thread and out of the 5 units my friends bought none had a defect so I must assume that Microsoft has a 0% failure rate. I think it is funny how people take a small sample and assume that it is an accurate assessment of the entire run of systems.
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« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2006, 02:52:25 PM »

Quote from: warning on August 31, 2006, 02:35:20 PM

Well I'm bored at work so I'll start a poll.

Edit: Here's the poll - http://www.gamingtrend.com/forums/index.php/topic,14696

I'm bored at work.  So I will vote in it.
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Kobra
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« Reply #33 on: August 31, 2006, 03:15:45 PM »

On the fragility of the system, this is a good point.

My EB-DM buddy says that this may be the first console where dust on the intakes cause failures.  Quite a few of the units he's seen come back are what he would call "Dusty" or "Tobacco smelling".  So I could buy into the fact that this is a sensative piece of equipment.

The problem is, consoles by nature, are subjected to far more abuse than PC's, and probably should be designed to be durable. This certainly would rule out a 360 for this household, my kids while well trained, are STILL a bit bruttish with their consoles because of the percieve invulnerability of the GameCube.
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« Reply #34 on: August 31, 2006, 04:03:07 PM »

Quote from: Kobra on August 31, 2006, 03:15:45 PM

On the fragility of the system, this is a good point.

My EB-DM buddy says that this may be the first console where dust on the intakes cause failures.  Quite a few of the units he's seen come back are what he would call "Dusty" or "Tobacco smelling".  So I could buy into the fact that this is a sensative piece of equipment.

The problem is, consoles by nature, are subjected to far more abuse than PC's, and probably should be designed to be durable. This certainly would rule out a 360 for this household, my kids while well trained, are STILL a bit bruttish with their consoles because of the percieve invulnerability of the GameCube.

Thats a fair point, but the same could be said for laptops, which have a higher fail frequency than most other similar devices. To build it "tank-like", with extra cooling, etc, would add a lot more money to the console, so that is factored into the design and planning as well.
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Kobra
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« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2006, 04:08:54 PM »

I almost believe M$ never actually tested the product in homes before launching it.  You know, homes with kids, families, pets, smoke, radon, whatever...  Maybe they sent a couple home with some rejuviniels, but thats about it I am betting.
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« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2006, 05:02:45 PM »

Quote from: Kobra on August 31, 2006, 04:08:54 PM

I almost believe M$ never actually tested the product in homes before launching it.  You know, homes with kids, families, pets, smoke, radon, whatever...  Maybe they sent a couple home with some rejuviniels, but thats about it I am betting.

I'm sure they didn't, but that doesn't mean it wasn't tested in different environments.  icon_wink

Ever seen what prologned exposure to cigarette smoke can do to an otherwise perfectly constructed PC? G-R-O-S-S.

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« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2006, 11:30:11 PM »

Quote from: Purge on August 31, 2006, 02:16:57 PM

Quote from: ChaoZ on August 31, 2006, 01:39:49 PM


Now, if we take the assumption that failure rates are at 30%, can we come up with some reasons why there are no class action suits?

1. Microsoft has been good about providing service... so far.
2. Most units are failing before the warranty period is up, and MS is even offering service to some outside warranty (whereas the Sony "Read Error" problem happened to most outside of warranty)
3. People are only now starting to realize that a lot of people's units are failing as well, gathering reliable information about failure rates is difficult.
4. Coverage of the topic is also minimal because of #3. Also, coverage of video games has always been minimal in the mass media.
5. People who fault the reliability of the Xbox 360 are immediately branded as Sony fanboys.

Besides, if you hear Microsoft say the failure rates are under 3% and you hear 4-5 of your friends say they returned the system, who would you believe more?

1) Correction: MS has been excellent with service (40,000 foot view, not saying they haven't had problems). They have had a commitment to that service since Xbox1.
2) Speculative at best. Where is "MOST" coming from? You state all people are within warranty, and those outside warranty are being supported as if they ARE covered? ... how is this a bad thing were it true?
3) "People are only now" - once again, this is subjective and not at all a disputable point. Most people think red looks more like blue than green. Gathering of failure rates is in fact, VERY easy. When systems are returned to GameStop/ Babbages/EB Games/Costco/etc.. where do you think they go? Back on the shelves? They're shipped back to the mfgr/vendor for repair/salvage/refurb so they can then use them as replacement units for future hardware failures. With every unit costing over 400 bux, you're telling me the vendor (MS in this case) isn't watching this closely? Do you seriously think with all the levels of management people wouldn't be having their walking papers handed to them for allowing the company to lose money hand over fist for poor management of their resources? MS still answers to their stock-holders; this isn't some closed system where no one is interested in the facts.
4) Coverage in media is minimal?  saywhat You mean to tell me HotCoffee wasn't noticed? All the grandstanding by US government officials isn't in the news every other week? The demonization of video gaming is very much alive and well. Oh, and Microsoft is one of the largest companies in the world. A world-wide product launch failure rate of more than 10% is likely to garner just a bit of bad press. Not just in Local / National, but also in the financial news.
5) Sony fanboys ARE touting this info to try to sway the people within their realm of influence away from a product that has been on the market for almost a year now. They fall within the group maintaining a 1:3 to even 1:2 hardware failure ratio.

As a person who does tech support (and has done so for both internal and public user base), let me tell you that PEBKAC, ID-10t users is a bigger cause of problems than products themselves. People don't read manuals, they just plug shit in and expect it to work as THEY see fit to use it. In this case it's not the non-tech people who have a problem; it's the know-it-all tech people. The ones who've owned other consoles, and like LE stated, treated them less like the delicate hardware they are. The non-tech people are more likely to read the manual since they're outside their comfort zone.

The counter to the % statisticr is that since MS is so lienient in its warranty, people take advantage of it. I, for instance, have cashed in on my extended warranty twice already, just because I could. The first time was due to my 360 making noise (my house was under construction and the 360 was subjected to significant amounts of drywall dust) and the second time was just because it was running slow with a game. I didn't try any other games out; I didn't care much to. I also wanted to take out the ext. warranty again so that when they redesign (or release a new 360 with HD-DVD) that i can cash in on it in a year. It's a grey area of abusing the warranty, but the fact is that my first 360 with a can of air and laying on it's side instead of upright would still be working fine for me today. I am a VERY satisfied MS customer, and know (after being through 3 systems and having one since november, 2005) that it is a sound product.

#1 - I'll agree to that.
#2 - Not a bad thing at all, but doesn't mean consoles aren't failing - it just means MS isn't pissing people off by charging for repairs (like Sony did with the disc read problem)
#3 - When I say it's difficult, I mean for people who are outside of the retail chain. MS would of course have very detailed stats, but would they make those numbers public?
#4 - Hot Coffee is an exception. Take a look at how much coverage Sony got from their class action suit for read errors. Defective consoles aren't "poisoning the youth" so it's not worth reporting on. Now, if the defective consoles blew up and burned some houses down... you'll see it on the news that night.
#5 - Some Sony fanboys are doing that. But I am not a Sony fanboy or a MS basher, but I am very concerned about failure rates. I own all three of the previous gen consoles and I will probably own all three of the next gen. These reports are a big part to why I don't own a 360 yet.

You yourself admit that you have had at least one system not perform to specifications and another failed by your own fault. Whether or not you are satisfied is immaterial. Others who have not purchased an extended warranty (which people SHOULDN'T have to buy) won't be so lucky. Design fault or production fault is up for debate.

Your argument about ID-10T users doesn't fly. The Gamecube and even the original Xbox were solid systems (with the exception of the Thompson drives). It's a consumer product and should be built as such. They SHOULD be able to plug shit in and expect it to work. The Xbox360 is a product you should expect KIDS and the non-technologically inclined to use. It's designed so it's easier to use than a computer.

Xbox360 Fanboy ran a poll about the system's reliability. Now, admittedly it could've been contaminated either way by Sony fanboys or Xbox360 fanboys, but 19% admitted they had their Xbox 360 replaced, some multiple times. 62% are problem free. How likely a Sony fanboy would vote on a 360 fanboy site is up to your interpretation. Even taken with a huge vat of salt, those numbers are still above Microsoft's released numbers.

Somebody online made a very interesting point. Perhaps MS is measuring the failure rate against the total numbers created to date. Percentage wise, that would skew defective units to a smaller proportion, assuming it is mostly the initial batch which had problems. Also, many units are still sitting on store shelves or only recently purchased, so those units' durability are still untested. It'd be interesting if we ever got our hands on the numbers for the launch machines.

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jblank
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« Reply #38 on: September 01, 2006, 12:14:36 AM »

I don't care who did the Internet poll, they are absolutely NOT indicitive of real-life statistics. Internet polls are notoriously unreliable.
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Ralph-Wiggum
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« Reply #39 on: September 01, 2006, 02:21:47 AM »

Quote from: jblank on September 01, 2006, 12:14:36 AM

I don't care who did the Internet poll, they are absolutely NOT indicitive of real-life statistics. Internet polls are notoriously unreliable.

Of course - no one is saying that they aren't. But if 25% of people in an internet poll are saying that they've had failures with their 360, it stands to reason that the  true percentage of people with those problems is higher than the 3% Microsoft is claiming.
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