Dungeon Siege II: Anyone care?

[gameoverman]

I'm finally calling it a night but here's some quick thoughts on the demo:

The intro movies are cool to look at but ultimately very forgettable.  It's very LOTR-ish, which seems almost quaint nowadays.  I would have preferred a smaller download with no movies.

The action is frenetic, which is good.  But the voices are equally frenetic, which is bad.

Game runs fantastic on my P4 2.4C @3ghz w/GF4ti 4200 @ 1024x768 everything cranked up(no AA or AF).  DS ran like crap on my old system(466 Celery based).

It doesn't look that much more advanced(okay not at all advanced) over DS, but since I thought it was gorgeous to start with so what?

I love having the wondeful camera back!  After playing the Fate demo, then some more Diablo 2 recently, this is the way it's supposed to be!

Yup, there's only ONE save spot.  IF, that's a big IF, I can use it to save whenever and whereever I want, I can live with that.  If there are limitations even on the one save spot, that's a deal breaker.

I'm hoping for a hack or something to allow multiple saves at some point.

[mikeg]

Well, after the demo I am no longer interested.  Was a yawner big time for me.  Look dated to me.  Didn't like the voice acting either.  But all in all it just seemed to much like the first one which I got tired of quickly.  So, cool.  I just saved another $50.  Gotta love demos.

[Knightshade Dragon]

Just put a final gold copy into a reviewers hands...we'll have our review of the game before you can buy it.

[Fuzzballx]

I can see this game not having near the longevity as Diablo 2, as much as it does aspire to be like Diablo 2...

Riddle me this:  Does DS2 have different levels of loot like magic rare unique etc including very rare hard to find items etc etc similar to Diablo 2?

If no...then i'm sticking to Diablo 2 i think...

[Calvin]

I can see this game not having near the longevity as Diablo 2, as much as it does aspire to be like Diablo 2...

Riddle me this:  Does DS2 have different levels of loot like magic rare unique etc including very rare hard to find items etc etc similar to Diablo 2?

If no...then i'm sticking to Diablo 2 i think...

Yes, they are color coded. I think it goes light green, blue, yellow, then red and something else. I am not sure exactly, but there are several levels, and supposedly loot spewing out of every orafice in the game world.

[Calvin]

Ok I started my DL again, no one has quite figured out the save point thingy so I am going to try it out and see what the dillyo is.  

[PhreezePeach]

Does DS2 have different levels of loot

Yes ... and even enchantable and set items

and ... Yes .. you can save anywhere (Ctrl+S) ... but only the one save spot (you "might" re-load in the closest town though, I think I read that somewhere)

The loot system strikes me as being better than DS1 (although it's been awhile since I played it)

When you factor in the "Difficulty Selection Screen" .. that you have to be a certain character level to qualify for .. 1-30 .. 31-50 .. (or whatever the scale is) ... then it stands to reason that there is loot available for those higher ranks as well

Character development is better fleshed out ... but not necessarily as well as Diablo-2 tree

but ... party contol seems to be a choice of RAMPAGE = attack at will on your own ... or ... MIRROR = attack what I attack

I wasn't successful selecting One party member and moving them away from the party to set up a tacticle ambush ... etc

Party size is strangely dependent on UNION rules ... you have to have paid the inn-keeper a fee to enlarge your party to 3, 4, 5 etc .... so if you come across a lone warrior standing along the path (ala Dungeon Siege 1) you won't be able to recruit them if your union card says "a party of two" ... and your dance card is full


*** My views are based on the PCGamer Disc "Beta" .. and is at least 2 months old due to magazine lead time

[CeeKay]

Saved again by the demo.  Color me unimpressed.  I found it... boring.

[gameoverman]

I don't know, no one is a bigger DS fan than me, but this demo is kinda leaving me feeling 'meh'.

I dug up some DS screenshots I took back in the day and compared them to new ones I made from the demo. To my suprise I found I prefer the way it used to look compared to the way it looks now.  Now the screen is too 'busy' for want of a better word.

My characters and the monsters tend to blend into the background. Look at this:


I cropped the image for size, but you can see how bland the characters are and how it all just merges into one formless blob.  I just don't get the sense of outright beauty that looking at DS gave me.

Also, it could be due to not being used to the new controls, I don't feel in control the way I did with DS.  There don't seem to be as many controls for formations, AI, and stuff like that.

Unless reviews say that there is something REALLY good available only by playing the full game, I'll probably pass on this one.

[EddieA]

Unfortunately, I was wrong about the saving.  You don't pick up right where you left off, but rather near where you were.  The monsters don't respawn, but you have to walk back to where you were.  I'm not quite sure how it works yet, but I'll do some more experimenting.  I really like everything else about the game - I hope this isn't a big problem.

[Calvin]

Ok I just tried it. I effing goddamn hate it-EDIT-"it" means the save system, I still really like the game. I loved DS for what it was-in many ways the anti-Diablo in terms of some of the features. I really really like 99% of what I have seen of DS2, but they have clearly moved the game to be more and more like a DS influenced Diablo 2.5-which is fine for most stuff, but not this saving shit.

When you save your game, you essentially save your state-the experience you have gained, the enemies killed, etc-however, when you re-enter the game (and make no mistake, for some inexplicably assinine reason that only the sadistic developer responsible for it will understand, you cannot reload from the game, you must exit the goddamn game to the menu and then continue) you continue from some arbitrary start, I believe it is the entrance to the "zone" you are in. It doesn't seem to be a big inconvenience, but given that the enemies don't spawn and you keep everything you had gained in terms of experience and items, it becomes nothing more than a time sink-a foolish design decision intended to force you to avail yourself of less quick-loading and more their "death spirit" guy-a concept that is fine on paper and fine in practice but utterly unncessary and complicated.

The system does work fine, and really shouldn't be a deal breaker-since I doubt it will cause more than 5 minutes of running back to where you were time, but still, how hard would it have been to keep the same system? Why make you walk back when not necessary? Why not let you save at different areas of the game to reload and enjoy those parts all over again when you want. Why not make it that much easier for those of us that love to jump in these types of games for 30 minutes at a time. Why not allow us to have saves to change the direction we take our characters (ie, melee, ranged, etc. there were several points in the original where I saved and then took characters in a different direction). Like I said, I understand the purpose and use of this new system, but make no mistake, it is a grossly backwards step that appears to me to serve two purposes: to remind Diablo2 fanatics of their game, and to increase the in-game difficult ( you die, you get inconvienced, need the spirit healer, etc). But in many other ways it is a huge step back and an inconvenience.

I am still day 1 for this game (really really enjoyed the first 30 minute trench battle type opening, I like the graphics, I love the skill tree thingy, I love the new super-skill thingamabobs, I like the story, sound, etc.) but I hope they patch the stupid ass save system.

[Turtle]

Interesting, so they did screw the save system.

Who is the idiot that made that decision?  I mean, Dungeon Siege is not Diablo, it could use some more depth like D2, but removing the save system is basically removing depth from the game.

[EddieA]

I don't get it either.  It seems like they went out of their way to improve everything else and make it user-friendly and fun to play, and then they drop in a terrible save system.  Did they look at all the negative feedback it got in Diablo 2 and say "Hey, that could be just as unpopular in our game!"?  I didn't really mind it in Diablo 2 since the monsters respawned and you were at least earning experience while fighting them again.  Here, you just have the tedious task of running back through empty areas to where you already were.  Also, it wrecks whatever immersion the increased emphasis on story creates.  

In a randomly-generated gameplay-based game like Diablo 2, it kind of makes sense, but in a game like Dungeon Siege 2, this type of save system makes absolutely no sense.  I just hope there is enough negative feedback about it that it will get changed before the game's release.  I can't imagine anyone preferring this system over the traditional save system.

I also don't get the M rating.  The enemies exploding into chunks after a special attack is kind of fun to watch, but why limit your audience for such a small addition?  It really makes you wonder what developers are thinking sometimes.

[gameoverman]

After putting more time in with the demo, I feel a bit better about it in some ways.  I learned the new control scheme, so now I have more fun playing it.  Plus, the graphics are better later in the demo.

The save scheme, while dumb(stupid would be save points), doesn't exactly ruin it for me.

A couple of things did crop up that concern me.

One- the 'conversation' trees.  9 times out of 10 I have ONE, count'em ONE, response to choose from.  Why frickin' bother?  Just have the damn NPC tell me what I need to know as quickly as possible so I can get on playing the game!  Why make me click a button saying something pointless like "tell me more"?

Finally, and this involves a spoiler for the demo**


I reached a point where I had my gear confiscated.  So basically anything I did up till then as far as using my best weapon, managing inventory, and such was pointless.  I was handed new gear and sent on my way.  

Look at it this way- I now know that I was never going to find anything really good in that earlier loot because the game designers knew they were taking that stuff from me anyways.  Since the main reason I play a game like this is for the loot(hoping for something really good at any moment),  this is for me a game ruining moment.  I sincerely hope that assinine gimmick is never repeated in the game.  :evil:

[Orgull]

@ Gameoverman

Mild Demo Spoiler ***

You will get your stuff back Gameoverman, don't worry. All of it.

End Spoiler ***

I'm sorry that some of you aren't happy with it. I was especially worried when I started reading Rage's comments about the save system. Am I the only person on earth who liked Diablo 2's save system? Regardless, playing the demo made this a Day 1 purchase for me.

I think people are too critical and need to learn how to be entertained. So what if the visuals aren't orgasm-inducing and the save system is a little awkward. From a coding point of view, the save system they're using is WAY more stable than a "save-in-state" system, which can introduce mountains of bugs when restarting the gamestate.

All that should matter IMHO is, "Am I having fun?", if the answer is no, go play something else. If the answer is yes, and it's a big yes for me, then enjoy!

If you want to gripe about someone's design decisions, try coding your own game. It's hard as hell. I've got a copy of "Beginning Visual C++" in my lap and I think my ears are bleeding. At this rate, my dream game will be finished in 2014... sheesh.

[gameoverman]

Nothing beats being able to save anytime, anywhere...AND being able to load your save and pick up EXACTLY where you left off.

The funny thing about DSII's save system is that it apparently saves everything about the game state(monsters killed, loot gained, experience gained, etc) EXCEPT where the player was when the save was created- that's bizarre to say the least.   So if they are going to the trouble of saving 99% of everthing there is to save, why not throw in that last part?

I am having fun with the demo, last night I really started to get into it.  Knowing I'll get my stuff back helps take the sting out of that.

[Nakor]

Two things didn't impress me off the bat.

1) No widescreen resolutions listed in the video configuration. You have to enable it with a commandline option. Come on, guys, it's not that hard to add a few more options to a drop down. (widescreengamingforum.com is a good site for info on such things)

2) The UI and font at 1280x1024 (I didn't find out about the widescreen until this morning) are TOO FREAKING SMALL. Why can't they make a UI/font that scales with resolution? Much older games have had this (and NWN even has an alternative font you can use). Why, why, why?

Maybe the game itself will be fun, but after firing it up and seeing these issues, I decided I should try again another day so I can give the gameplay a fair shake.

Maybe I'm just too picky.

[gameoverman]

Yeah, funny you mention that.  I was running the game nicely at 1024x768 on my 17" crt, but I knocked it down to 800x600.  Not because of framerate issues, but because stuff like looking at my inventory was just too uncomfortable due to the small icons and fonts.  Some way to keep the resolution high but make the interface stuff bigger would be very cool.  Maybe there will be a way of modding that.

edit:  Just to note that I have discovered something - I DON'T want story in my action rpg hack n slash games.  DS, Diablo, Diablo 2, even the Fate demo all had just enough 'story' to hang the game on.  DS II, at least this demo, has too much.

By that I mean, here I am hacking n slashing having a good time.  Okay, now here's someone with the 'talk to me' icon.  So I do, hoping for a quick 'blah blah do this...' and I'm on my way.  Instead I get someone who insults me, asks me questions where I can only make one answer but still must reply anyways, then asks me a multiple choice question which forces me to click through yet more 'conversation' screens, then finally minutes later I can move on.  

The alternative is I talk to NO ONE that the game doesn't force on me, but then I miss out on crap.

Am I the only one who wants the NPC to come up, say everything that needs to be said on ONE page, so you don't have to click through multiple screens, then leave?

All this story is seriously interrupting the flow of the action.  It feels like I'm spending as much time in generic "we need your help..." dialogue screens as I am killing monsters and gathering loot.  Hopefully this is because the early game has to set up the story, so the rest of the game won't have this problem.

[Cleric7]

Just tried the demo this afternoon and enjoyed it more than I thought I would. There are some interesting new ideas here.

But -- and it's a BIG but -- I hate the save system. When I went in to play tonight, I was magically back in town, even though I had saved in the middle of the wilderness. Not only that but I was in a part of the "tree village" that I had never seen before. I thought, "Well how hard can it be to exit the village and get back to where I was!"

Pretty f*ckin' hard apparently!! Three "elevator" rides and one confused talk to a citizen (who was clearly supposed to "help" me get my bearings) and I gave up in disgust and quit the game!

This is just poor game design -- and I am surprised because everything up until that point had been well presented.

The save system needs to be modified before this thing ships or they are losing my purchase.

[Charlatan]

I think people are too critical and need to learn how to be entertained. So what if the... save system is a little awkward. From a coding point of view, the save system they're using is WAY more stable than a "save-in-state" system, which can introduce mountains of bugs when restarting the gamestate.

Perhaps, but you're looking at things from a programmer's perspective. "We can't do that, it'd be too hard, too prone to bugs."

Maybe, but the point is: features (like saving the freaking game) should be designed and implemented to ENHANCE or at least not INTERFERE with the end user's experience. And this save system obviously doesn't do that.

I predict a couple of things from the save system:

- every review that mentions the save system will knock it.
- one of the first patches will change it to add multiple save slots and allow you to save/restore anywhere.

I've just seen this type of debacle too many times in the past to think anything else will happen.

--------

As for the game itself, I like it to an extent, and I don't have any issues with the graphics (though the inventory, etc DOES get awfully small at 1280 x 1024) but the game isn't grabbing me the way a game like Diablo 2 did (heck, on my vacation last week, I took a D2 Necromancer into Nightmare act 2 for fun!). DS2 seems, well, a bit more like work than like fun - yes, there's fun there, but it's almost as though you gotta squeeze it out of the game.

I'm going back to it and will play more (I've only logged perhaps 90 minutes at this point) but the demo has convinced me to take a wait and see attitude towards purchasing.

[Calvin]

Its funny you say that DS2 feels more like work than fun Charlatan, because for me, and me only mind you, Diablo 2 as many times as I have tired it has always felt way more like work then fun.

Dungeon Siege 1-pure fun for me. DS2-pure fun so far Funny how perceptions differ.

[shon]

I have had the demo crash 3 times already this happen to anyone else.

I click on an area and boom sound stutters and screen goes black.

[Sarkus]

I predict a couple of things from the save system:

- every review that mentions the save system will knock it.
- one of the first patches will change it to add multiple save slots and allow you to save/restore anywhere.

I've just seen this type of debacle too many times in the past to think anything else will happen.

I agree and wonder why developers even mess around with the save system when they know change is such a controversial idea among PC gamers.  It makes you think these guys never pay much attention to what gamers talk about when a game comes out.

[Atragon]

Personally, I'd love to see a game (other than diablo) that adds a true hardcore option... aka, ironman saves only.

[gameoverman]

Personally, I'd love to see a game (other than diablo) that adds a true hardcore option... aka, ironman saves only.

What's an ironman save?  How is different from a regular save?

I ask because I always thought that 'ironman' referred to a style of play, not an actual game design element.

[Charlatan]

Personally, I'd love to see a game (other than diablo) that adds a true hardcore option... aka, ironman saves only.

What's an ironman save?  How is different from a regular save?

I ask because I always thought that 'ironman' referred to a style of play, not an actual game design element.

I believe ironman saves refers to only one save slot, so you can save, but no saving and reloading if things go bad.

And of course the old reply to that is: you can do that on your own, just use 1 save slot. But don't force that model on everyone, because obvioulsy not everyone wants that type of save system.

[EddieA]

In "Ironman" mode, if you die, your character is gone, i.e. your saves for the character are deleted.  Other than the Rogue/Nethack type text games, the only ones I can think of that implement this are Diablo 2, Dungeon Hack, and Warlords Battlecry 2 and 3.  I'd never play this way myself, but it's a nice option for the crazy people who do

[Orgull]

Temple of Elemental Evil had an Ironman mode... once I tried it, I never went back. The increase in intensity from knowing that if you die, it's game over, makes for a much more interesting gaming experience, IMHO.

[Atragon]

I'd temper it by allowing resurection to work... but a TPK is permanent. (TPK = Total Party Kill). And no Do-Overs.  :twisted:

[-Lord Ebonstone-]

Well, piracy wins again.  Dungeon Siege 2 is the newest game in the long list of titles whose pirate releases beat the legitimate shelf release by weeks.

(Cue discussion on whether it's OK for preorders to pirate the game in advance, etc).

[unbreakable]

My guess is people will play it, hate it, and cancel their preorders.

[gameoverman]

Well, piracy wins again.  Dungeon Siege 2 is the newest game in the long list of titles whose pirate releases beat the legitimate shelf release by weeks.

(Cue discussion on whether it's OK for preorders to pirate the game in advance, etc).

I think by now piracy of PC games is the norm, it's kinda stating the obvious.

Even stuff that 'requires' online activation, like WinXp and HL2, gets pirated.  So I think when a game comes out and is NOT pirated- that's something worthy of note.

I don't know if that counts as piracy 'winning', since there is no real competition there.  There is no way to keep a game from being pirated, if someone REALLY wants to pirate it.  Just like there is no way of keeping a car from being stolen if someone really wants to steal it.

As to whether it's OK for people who have paid for the game to pirate it, well personally I think no.  I could be wrong, as I've never pre-ordered a game, but unless part of your pre-order agreement is the right to play the game by whatever means the moment you place your order, you have to wait for the game like everyone else.

[-Lord Ebonstone-]

I don't know if that counts as piracy 'winning', since there is no real competition there.  There is no way to keep a game from being pirated, if someone REALLY wants to pirate it.  Just like there is no way of keeping a car from being stolen if someone really wants to steal it.

'Winning' in the sense that it beat the legitimate release of the game.

This always happens to games that go gold way before their release dates -- it almost guarentees a pirate release prior to the shelf date.  You think publishers would tighten up that window a little better...

[gameoverman]

Oh I see what you mean.

Yeah, I have to agree, in this day and age of piracy, minimizing the 'gold to sold' time is THE way to go.

[Autistic Angel]

GameSpot has posted their review of Dungeon Siege II.

-Autistic Angel

[-Lord Ebonstone-]

The combat in Dungeon Siege II doesn't require any sort of skill or strategy...

Ouch.

And before someone says Dialbo 2 didn't have any either... you're wrong.  It did.

BTW, score is 7.9.

I'm definitely not spending $50 on this.

[EddieA]

I assume that comment is referring to the fact that they thought the game was easy, not that you don't have options for fighting.  From what I've seen of the demo, there's at least as much potential for strategy in DS2 as in Diablo 2 - you have four characters, enemies with different methods of attacking, resistances, and stats, and even "hates" where enemies will target your players for using potions or skills in their sight.  DS2 even has the little health bar over the enemy, listing its weakness, similar to the Diablo games.  I would assume you need to use more strategy on the harder levels.

[gameoverman]

To my ears what they have to say in that review is good news.  All the stuff I liked about the first game seems to be present in the second, with the improvements it needed.

The only part that puzzles me is that bit about teleporting back to town- that's what pets are for, hauling your crap so you don't need to go back to town.  That and the 'transmute' function.  In all the times I played DS, I NEVER once had to go back to sell crap, I loved that.

Also, they didn't really directly address whether the loot you find is appropriate for your character's level, or do you wind up having to wait a long time to use stuff you find.  That is a big concern of mine.

[Calvin]

They praised virtually everything about the game except the difficulty and it ended up with 7.9-and they said it was a better sequel. Thats an odd score, frankly.

Oh, and I am not wrong. On regular, out of the box single player difficulty, there is not a lick more strategy in D2 than Dungeon Siege 2. You can beat the game like that with almost any combination of idiotic skills. On nightmare or hell or on the ladders or whatever I don't know-but that is ultimately irrelevant to the issue of how the game plays right out of the box.

[EddieA]

"The only part that puzzles me is that bit about teleporting back to town- that's what pets are for, hauling your crap so you don't need to go back to town."
It looks like pets are more like regular party members in DS2 rather than just for transporting your gear.  Since they count toward your four-member party limit, you'll probably want them around for every battle.  I'd imagine you still can send them back to town if you want, though.