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Author Topic: Command & Conquer 3 demo on Live  (Read 2587 times)
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EngineNo9
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« on: April 20, 2007, 03:12:49 PM »

As the title says, there is now a demo of C&C3 up on the XBox Live Marketplace.  As usual these days, it's only available to Gold members right now. 
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« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2007, 03:15:40 PM »

Anyone try it yet?  I'm interested how the controls are. 
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« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2007, 03:25:26 PM »

I want to know about control too. Also, does it have difficulty setting? I suck at hard game especially RTS.
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« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2007, 03:32:06 PM »

They're supposed to be like BFME2.  If they haven't refined them or tweaked them to improve them I'll be passing.
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« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2007, 04:00:59 PM »

I may have to grab the demo just to see how an RTS works on a console.
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« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2007, 04:19:22 PM »

Cool! I don't really have any desire to play it on 360, but I would like to play the demo to see the controls and how closely the graphics compare.
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« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2007, 04:25:31 PM »

Can't wait to get home from work to download the demo and try it out  icon_lol
Will be off at 8:00PM and home by 9:30PM...
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« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2007, 04:43:44 PM »

Diyamn! 1GB demo.

DLing it now to beat the rush.
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« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2007, 04:49:23 PM »

<perk> interested to see how this works.... will download while off at class...
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« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2007, 06:13:07 PM »

Quote from: ATB on April 20, 2007, 03:32:06 PM

They're supposed to be like BFME2.  If they haven't refined them or tweaked them to improve them I'll be passing.

I thought the controls were actually pretty good, though I hear they've simplified them further for C&C3.  The bigger issue was the framerate, IMO.  That made using the controls a little challenging sometimes.  Also, saving a game took at least 30 seconds.  Simple maps were taking an hour and a half to complete when they should have been about a half hour.
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« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2007, 06:37:46 PM »

Quote from: Bullwinkle on April 20, 2007, 06:13:07 PM

Quote from: ATB on April 20, 2007, 03:32:06 PM

They're supposed to be like BFME2.  If they haven't refined them or tweaked them to improve them I'll be passing.

I thought the controls were actually pretty good, though I hear they've simplified them further for C&C3.  The bigger issue was the framerate, IMO.  That made using the controls a little challenging sometimes.  Also, saving a game took at least 30 seconds.  Simple maps were taking an hour and a half to complete when they should have been about a half hour.

C&C3 on the PC was hardlocked at 30FPS, partially at least because of the development of the 360 version-also to run at a steady 30FPS. I of course have no idea if that is going to work or be true, but I know thats the goal.
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« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2007, 06:50:30 PM »

Quote from: Bullwinkle on April 20, 2007, 06:13:07 PM

Quote from: ATB on April 20, 2007, 03:32:06 PM

They're supposed to be like BFME2.  If they haven't refined them or tweaked them to improve them I'll be passing.

I thought the controls were actually pretty good, though I hear they've simplified them further for C&C3.  The bigger issue was the framerate, IMO.  That made using the controls a little challenging sometimes.  Also, saving a game took at least 30 seconds.  Simple maps were taking an hour and a half to complete when they should have been about a half hour.

I agree with everything there.  I thought the controls for BFME2 on the 360 were fine.  But the framerate and quicksave speed were the biggest problems.  I am looking forward to the 360 version of C&C.  I passed on the PC version in anticipation.
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« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2007, 02:00:24 AM »

i burn out on rts games very quickly (all of a sudden i hit a "wall" in one after playing and enjoying if for a few days)

but for me, a very casual rts guy who knows hes only going to get about 10 hours of play out of any given one...

the game wasnt bad.  like i said i have fun with them in short bursts.  i didnt notice any framerate issues.  the demo had 2 missions and a "boot camp" - same as pc.  the build area for bases is limited which i didnt like (the control circle things seem a bit too claustrophobic for my taste).  orcas one shot scorpion tanks.  while its easy enough to jump between build queues and groups, its a bit slow (though im sure after a few levels itll be second nature - b b a down down a - etc etc etc).  its fun to blow stuff up and its nice to have these things on console.  i dont know if ill buy it, but if anyone here is a rabid c&c or rts fan, or even mildly interested in the genre theyre probably going to have a blast here.

oh and i noticed no framerate stuttering
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« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2007, 04:13:26 AM »

I tried training and one mission (the second one). 

This plays so much better than BFMEII, it's not even funny.  Doopri's right about no framerate issues.  It looked fantastic.  The controls were second nature very quickly, I thought.  One problem for me, though, is that I burn out on RTS games like Doopri.  I don't know if the controls would be second nature if I left the game alone for a while and picked it up again later.  Fortunately, the tutorial is pretty quick, should I think to refresh there. 

Anyway, this doesn't feel like a RTS game crammed onto a console.  The only gripe I really see is that pusing the number keys to select groups is way simpler/faster than navigating the Group tab in the console version.  You can scroll through your groups with up on the d-pad, but that's one of those things I'd probably forget after a while away (and it's still not as easy as the number keys).

The FMV is just as cheesy as I remember, in a mostly fun way.  Michael Ironside really seems to phone it in, though.  And the guy playing the doctor is so over the top, it's like he's in another game.

I'm sure I'll pick this up.
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« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2007, 07:15:12 AM »

After playing the pc version already the camera is just too claustrophobic for me maybe I'm too spoiled after playing Supreme Commander.
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« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2007, 10:51:04 AM »

I've got an idea! Let's take what might be the fastest moving RTS game of the last several years and try to mash the controls out onto a 360 controller!

Brilliance.

No way this plays well. Even if the framerate is fine and the controls manage to be something better than totally clumsy it still won't play well.
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« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2007, 11:47:16 AM »

Quote from: Thin_J on April 21, 2007, 10:51:04 AM

I've got an idea! Let's take what might be the fastest moving RTS game of the last several years and try to mash the controls out onto a 360 controller!

Brilliance.

No way this plays well. Even if the framerate is fine and the controls manage to be something better than totally clumsy it still won't play well.

Wait...did you actually try playing it?
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Bullwinkle
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« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2007, 01:51:57 PM »

Resist the troll...resist the troll...
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« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2007, 03:36:35 PM »

I've played BFME2 on the 360 and the controls are the same.

A framerate fix isn't going to fix a broken control scheme. A controller works fine for every gametype there is but one: strategy.

I don't know why they keep bothering.

*edit*

Oh, and trolling is at least partially defined by the poster in question looking for a specific response to his post. The thread is about a game demo on Live. I gave an opinion relevant to the demo. You don't agree. That's fine. It doesn't make my post trolling, especially since I don't really care that you disagree.
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« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2007, 04:40:24 PM »

Quote from: Thin_J on April 21, 2007, 03:36:35 PM

I've played BFME2 on the 360 and the controls are the same.

A framerate fix isn't going to fix a broken control scheme. A controller works fine for every gametype there is but one: strategy.

I don't know why they keep bothering.

*edit*

Oh, and trolling is at least partially defined by the poster in question looking for a specific response to his post. The thread is about a game demo on Live. I gave an opinion relevant to the demo. You don't agree. That's fine. It doesn't make my post trolling, especially since I don't really care that you disagree.

Fine, I'll bite.  You've posted an opinion with no hands on evidence to back it.  You've said you haven't even bothered to try the demo before throwing a damning, across-the-board statement about it.  You can't base it on BFMEII and be done with it.  The controls are not the same.  They've tightened them.  They've simplified them.  The framerate was a significant part of what didn't work with the controls.  They weren't "broken," apart from that. 

As for a controller working fine for every gametype but strategy, I would say that there were a number of years that people said the same exact thing about FPS games.  Now, very few would argue that they don't work on consoles.  It just took a little while to get the control scheme down.  The first game may not have worked, but the next was a little better.  See, they didn't just use the same controls over and over.  They improved them.

You can have a differing opinion after trying the game, and that's fine.  Otherwise, you're just posting inflammatory or derogatory comments.
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« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2007, 09:14:29 PM »

Quote from: Bullwinkle
As for a controller working fine for every gametype but strategy, I would say that there were a number of years that people said the same exact thing about FPS games.  Now, very few would argue that they don't work on consoles.  It just took a little while to get the control scheme down.  The first game may not have worked, but the next was a little better.  See, they didn't just use the same controls over and over.  They improved them.

You can have a differing opinion after trying the game, and that's fine.  Otherwise, you're just posting inflammatory or derogatory comments.

I disagree and still feel that no amount of "tightening" or "simplifying" of the BFME 2 control scheme will ever fix it. Oh, and I was never once against FPS games on a console. It's the same situation but not, in my opinion, a valid comparison because of the overall differences in controls between RTS games and FPS games. For instance: Either of the Halo games plays about a billion times better than GRAW does on the PC. There are, in a lot of situations I think, advantages to the controller over the mouse and keyboard. Finer control of player movement is a big one. But of all the times there have been attempts at RTS games on consoles I've never once found a remotely redeeming part of them. BFME 2 was the best attempt at it yet and it was still miserable. I remember trying Dune or Dune 2 (whichever one it was) on the Genesis. Terrible. Later on I gave Starcraft a rental on the N64. Marginally less terrible, but still pretty awful really. Then I tried Red Alert on the PS1. And so on and so forth through every other RTS game I ever gave a shot on a console. I always try them and they always fail.

I want someone to figure out a way to make it work as well and a mouse and keyboard or even to find some advantage (like the aforementioned player movement in FPS games) but I've come to a point where I just don't see it ever actually happening. Jaded and all that.

To each his own, Agree to disagree, blah blah blah, etc etc etc.
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« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2007, 12:52:22 AM »

It has a lot to do with the pacing of the RTS games that do this.  For example, a game similar to Kohan would play well on a console because it's pace allows for the time it takes a controller to handle such things, nor are you all that penalized for not reacting quickly.  Then adding on the gameplay aids for the controller just helps more.

The same goes for FPS games.  For all that say FPS games are fast, some of them are actually very well paced.  What helps with pacing is the aiming aids.  The halo games have 6 different aim assistance systems in game that helps give the impression that a gamer is more accurate that he really is.

Honestly I think they could do a decent job of showhorning C&C3 onto the 360, but I don't think it'll work.  The game was designed as a twitch action game of the RTS genre.  I bet you they've slowed down the game in many subtle ways to get it on the console, not to mention simplified the game quite a bit.

Unlike some, I do think a good RTS game can be made for consoles, but it'll have to be made for consoles first, and might actually not look like any PC game currently.
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« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2007, 01:05:26 AM »

Quote from: Turtle on April 22, 2007, 12:52:22 AM


Unlike some, I do think a good RTS game can be made for consoles, but it'll have to be made for consoles first, and might actually not look like any PC game currently.

Goblin Commander was a good attempt at this.  I agree that someone should set out to make one for consoles only.  I think they could use a lot of what BFMEII and C&C3 have laid out, groundwork-wise, and go from there.

The controls in C&C3 are leaps and bounds over what any of the much older console attempts at RTS have been.  I, for one, am glad that they keep bothering.
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« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2007, 08:43:14 AM »

Halo Wars, in development at Ensemble Studios, is being designed primarily for the 360, perhaps with a PC port at a later date.  Say what you will about Age of Empires 3, but Ensemble is a talented developer, and targeting the 360 will force them to tighten and refresh their design philosophies if they really want to pull if off.  I think we might just have the Halo of the RTS genre on our hands - in every sense - but we won't know for at least another year.
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« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2007, 12:36:00 PM »

I'll be fine with halo wars so long as they don't use some sort of "Ages" mechanic, nor do I want to see a lot of resource types, if any.

Unfortunately with them they're heavy into the whole arbitrary rock, paper, scissors balance instead factoring many more things than unit make-up like terrain, attack direction, morale, etc...
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« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2007, 04:08:55 PM »

Quote from: Turtle on April 22, 2007, 12:36:00 PM

I'll be fine with halo wars so long as they don't use some sort of "Ages" mechanic, nor do I want to see a lot of resource types, if any.

Yeah, I think it might be best if they went the route of Ground Control and World in Conflict with no real resources, or something like Dawn of War with control points to capture. 
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« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2007, 04:42:27 PM »

Quote from: EngineNo9 on April 22, 2007, 04:08:55 PM

Quote from: Turtle on April 22, 2007, 12:36:00 PM

I'll be fine with halo wars so long as they don't use some sort of "Ages" mechanic, nor do I want to see a lot of resource types, if any.

Yeah, I think it might be best if they went the route of Ground Control and World in Conflict with no real resources, or something like Dawn of War with control points to capture. 

If its anything other than this I am going to be very disappointed. Unlike some of you guys  I am actually pretty wary that Ensemble is doing this game. I have not at all been impressed with anything they have done in the last 5-6 years. I think the RTS genre has moved on faster than they have kept up...but I will be happy to be wrong.
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« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2007, 06:15:11 PM »

I'm hoping that since it is a Bungie game (I know Ensemble is the one developing) I'm hoping it'll be like, oh I don't know, Myth/Myth II. Still IMHO the best ever RTS.  Maybe Bungie kinda hinted to Ensemble that Myth is a great idea to copy.

Could you imagine playing a Myth type of game over Xbox Live? Oh yeah...

Rankings, teams, and real strategy being implemented instead of who can zerg who first.

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« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2007, 11:09:58 PM »

I played this demo this afternoon and thought the controls were pretty damn tight.  Certainly not as smooth as on the PC, but very playable.  The only problem I ran in to was managing the left-trigger menus and getting to the build options fast enough.  But otherwise it was really slick.  Down to group selected units and up to cycle through groups.  I'm planning on picking it up.
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« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2007, 04:44:02 AM »

And of course the game is for gold members only so I can't download it being a silver member  thumbsdown
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« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2007, 08:05:28 AM »

 Played the demo and I loved it. Good stuff.
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« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2007, 12:56:34 PM »

Thin, this isn't a pile-on by any stretch, but you should actually download and try a game before knocking it. I mean, the Model-T had a steering wheel and pedals; so does a Ferrari Enzo... see where I'm going with this?

Just because an interface isn't optimal doesn't mean what you're used to is better; the only advantage the latter has is YOUR learning curve is a lot shorter. Now I'll be the first to agree that I prefer a mouse pointer to an analog joystick; I'd actually prefer something like the Wii controller for RTS though. biggrin
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« Reply #32 on: April 23, 2007, 01:50:59 PM »

Well I can be grouped into TJ's camp as the control scheme and map navigation in BFME2 was deplorable.  If it's identical, he's right to judge it as not workable initially.

That said, I'm going to give it a go as C&C is a seminal franchise for me.
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« Reply #33 on: April 23, 2007, 02:01:22 PM »

Quote from: ATB on April 23, 2007, 01:50:59 PM

Well I can be grouped into TJ's camp as the control scheme and map navigation in BFME2 was deplorable.  If it's identical, he's right to judge it as not workable initially.

That said, I'm going to give it a go as C&C is a seminal franchise for me.

C&C is much better then BFME2.  They have streamlined group creation/selection and the lack of builder units makes creation of buildings much easier.  Also the framerate is much improved.  I have had to unlearn some of the BFME2 controls in the C&C demo.  But once I do so, I'm not sure I will be able to go back to BFME2 (which I really enjoyed on the 360.)
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« Reply #34 on: April 23, 2007, 07:44:09 PM »

I think the whole camera match/10 seconds of trash talk/commentary is one of the dumbest design decisions ever.
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« Reply #35 on: April 24, 2007, 04:03:21 AM »

Quote from: SuperHiro on April 23, 2007, 07:44:09 PM

I think the whole camera match/10 seconds of trash talk/commentary is one of the dumbest design decisions ever.

That was a given from the minute it was announced.
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« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2007, 03:53:56 AM »

i've never touched a console RTS before, but i played with C&C3 for a little while tonight...went through the training and first demo mission.  while not perfect, i'd say the control scheme works pretty well.  it's a little complex and not overly intuitive, but i felt like i was picking it up pretty quickly.  with a little bit of practice, i think it could work very well.  will it ever be as good as a mouse and keyboard?  of course not...but it does a pretty good job for a console. 

besides the controls, i'd say the game has potential to be a lot of fun.  the action is fast-paced, graphics are pretty, and the cutscenes look to be entertaining.  all in all, i've seen enough potential in the demo to warrant keeping an eye on the full game once it's released.  my biggest hangup may be the fact that i've never been big on multiplayer RTS...just not my thing, though i do usually enjoy the SP game if it's done well.  i guess i'll just wait and see how the final 360 version turns out...
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« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2007, 05:33:55 AM »

The early missions tend to be interesting, but the later missions just run out of steam, resorting to standard build base assault enemy base objectives for the last half of both GDI and Nod campaigns.  They even use multiplayer maps as SP mission maps.  That leaves the cutscenes to hold your interest, but unfortunately, while they've got a lot of good actors there isn't much of a real story to the game, or at least nothing in the way of new revelations besides aliens.
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« Reply #38 on: April 26, 2007, 04:35:40 AM »

Downloaded it, played it, didn't do anything but justify everything I'd already said.

Unit grouping is still terrible, unit selection is still too imprecise if you want just that one particular unit in the mass of others, and placing stuctures can be a real hassle. It takes multiple steps to do way too many things.

This is admittedly less of an issue because every player is hampered by the same control scheme but it's just so clumsy and inefficient.

I'll be standing by the idea that for a console RTS game to be good a solid developer is going to have to design one purely for the console. They would have to consider the limitations of their control in every aspect of the gameplay. C&C just isn't set up for that. There's too much specialized stuff to deal with to bother cycling through things as much as you have to. Granted there are even worse fits for it, but C&C is still really, really far from an ideal situation.
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