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Author Topic: [PC] Civilization 5: !#@#!@ Impressions Incoming! Brave New World!  (Read 21693 times)
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Ironrod
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« Reply #360 on: April 05, 2012, 11:11:02 PM »

Quote from: TK-421 on April 05, 2012, 03:10:49 AM

Quote from: Morgul on April 04, 2012, 02:47:37 PM

Steam has me clocked in at almost 400 hours now.

smile  Mine shows almost double that.

Pikers. 1,571 hours played.  icon_redface
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« Reply #361 on: April 06, 2012, 10:05:53 PM »

That's insane, Ironrod!  I thought my Skyrim hours was crazy, but I am a lightweight compared to you!!
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« Reply #362 on: April 07, 2012, 02:13:56 AM »

Well, it's the only game that I play, and I've been playing it since December '10. I only ever play on Marathon speed. And I've been playing the NiGHTS mod for the past several months, which makes the game a whole lot bigger. All those hours "only" comprise 80 games (I know because I number my saves), not all of them played to completion. 80 games started in 17 months isn't that much...is it?

Yeah, it's a significant piece of lifespan. And the G&K expansion is going to give it another shot in the arm.

I probably need an intervention.  paranoid
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« Reply #363 on: April 07, 2012, 07:04:13 AM »

Your fine.  .   Definitly one of the best games ever made.
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« Reply #364 on: April 07, 2012, 07:08:30 AM »

damn, and here I was happy with my 16 minutes played  paranoid
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« Reply #365 on: April 07, 2012, 03:33:54 PM »

396 hours played and 90% of that came after the major patch last summer.  Civ V really clicked for me after that patch.   It is definitely a game that rewards you the more you play it... master it.   I can't wait for this new expansion.  Between this and Diablo 3, I will be set for the rest of the year.  In fact, I will probably be playing both games for the next couple of years to come.   
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« Reply #366 on: May 24, 2012, 05:47:01 PM »

just a heads up for those who have looked but haven't bought yet-  it's on sale this weekend on Steam AND it's free to play until Sunday afternoon.
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« Reply #367 on: May 24, 2012, 06:05:17 PM »

Quote from: CeeKay on May 24, 2012, 05:47:01 PM

just a heads up for those who have looked but haven't bought yet-  it's on sale this weekend on Steam AND it's free to play until Sunday afternoon.

Thanks for the heads up on this! I've been considering getting the game now that I have my new computer and 75% off is very nice. And I see that the regular Civ 5 is $7.49 and Sid Meier's Civilizationģ V: Game of the Year edition is only $12.49. Nice.

Oops, must have a lot of people doing this. Steam isn't responding to my request for the free download  icon_frown

UPDATE: Finally got it to start by terminating Steam and restarting it.
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« Reply #368 on: June 04, 2012, 07:17:02 AM »

looks like this is getting Steam Workshop support for mods  thumbsup
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« Reply #369 on: June 10, 2012, 02:37:24 PM »

I've been trying to find some hands-on previews of Gods & Kings, without the hyperbole.  I'm on the fence as to pre-ordering it or waiting to see if it fixes the issues I'm having with Civ V.

I love Civ V.... almost as much as IV... but the diplomacy drives me crazy (as this was a big part of my play style with Civ IV).  They say that it's supposed to fix it, but I want to really know in what capacity the changes manifest.

I'm really hopeful though.
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« Reply #370 on: June 10, 2012, 10:01:02 PM »

I can't believe Atheist is praying for religion to fix everything in Civilization.

 icon_wink
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« Reply #371 on: June 10, 2012, 11:22:10 PM »

Quote from: Atheist on June 10, 2012, 02:37:24 PM

I've been trying to find some hands-on previews of Gods & Kings, without the hyperbole.  I'm on the fence as to pre-ordering it or waiting to see if it fixes the issues I'm having with Civ V.

I love Civ V.... almost as much as IV... but the diplomacy drives me crazy (as this was a big part of my play style with Civ IV).  They say that it's supposed to fix it, but I want to really know in what capacity the changes manifest.

I'm really hopeful though.

I don't think any article is going to give you what you're really looking for, at least assuming you have the same issues with Civ V that I do.  My main concern is with how poorly the AI plays the game.  I've been brushing up on my Civ V skills in preparation for the new expansion and I had a game where the AI left a great general just sitting on a square by himself right by my units.  I'm going to have to start a game in the industrial age and see if the AI actually builds aircraft now, because it never did when the game was originally released.  I also want to see if it's gotten better about naval invasions.  I remember one game where it continued to funnel unescorted units into the ocean where I had a destroyer nearby which probably killed them one-by-one.

As the inability of the AI to play the game wasn't really brought up by main stream reviewers (with IIRC the exception of Tom Chick), I'm not particularly hopeful any of them will discuss this issue in the context of Expansion Previews.

Here is the best summary of Civ V: Gods and Kings that I've seen.  It should give you a very good idea of exactly what is getting added.  What it won't tell you is what they've managed to fix from the original game.
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« Reply #372 on: June 11, 2012, 12:02:48 AM »

Quote from: Hrothgar on June 10, 2012, 10:01:02 PM

I can't believe Atheist is praying for religion to fix everything in Civilization.

 icon_wink

 icon_biggrin  Well played, good sir.
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« Reply #373 on: June 11, 2012, 12:04:37 AM »

Quote from: ydejin on June 10, 2012, 11:22:10 PM

Quote from: Atheist on June 10, 2012, 02:37:24 PM

I've been trying to find some hands-on previews of Gods & Kings, without the hyperbole.  I'm on the fence as to pre-ordering it or waiting to see if it fixes the issues I'm having with Civ V.

I love Civ V.... almost as much as IV... but the diplomacy drives me crazy (as this was a big part of my play style with Civ IV).  They say that it's supposed to fix it, but I want to really know in what capacity the changes manifest.

I'm really hopeful though.

I don't think any article is going to give you what you're really looking for, at least assuming you have the same issues with Civ V that I do.  My main concern is with how poorly the AI plays the game.  I've been brushing up on my Civ V skills in preparation for the new expansion and I had a game where the AI left a great general just sitting on a square by himself right by my units.  I'm going to have to start a game in the industrial age and see if the AI actually builds aircraft now, because it never did when the game was originally released.  I also want to see if it's gotten better about naval invasions.  I remember one game where it continued to funnel unescorted units into the ocean where I had a destroyer nearby which probably killed them one-by-one.

As the inability of the AI to play the game wasn't really brought up by main stream reviewers (with IIRC the exception of Tom Chick), I'm not particularly hopeful any of them will discuss this issue in the context of Expansion Previews.

Here is the best summary of Civ V: Gods and Kings that I've seen.  It should give you a very good idea of exactly what is getting added.  What it won't tell you is what they've managed to fix from the original game.

I hadn't seen that.  Nice overview of what's added.  But ultimately, no discussion about the fixes to the AI.  You're right, the biggest issues I had were the very same with the AI.  Random war declarations from various people I was supposedly friends with and the declarations didn't make sense. A lot of the time it was from the weaker nations.  So weird.

But thanks for the link.  Those additions alone make me likely to purchase the expansion.
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« Reply #374 on: June 18, 2012, 04:51:34 PM »

Quote from: ydejin on June 10, 2012, 11:22:10 PM

Here is the best summary of Civ V: Gods and Kings that I've seen.  It should give you a very good idea of exactly what is getting added.  What it won't tell you is what they've managed to fix from the original game.


On that point, Tom Chick is absolutely savaging the expansion.

Quote from: Tom Chick
Some new units make an appearance, and most notably the naval balance has been reworked. Itís hard for me to care about this when the computer is still incapable of playing the game as designed. Mongolia throws units after unit into my defenses, so I couldnít care less what the units are. France parks armies underneath ranged fire and waits for them to die, so what does it matter if I kill them with a new tank or a biplane bomber? Siam marches its generals up to my front lines. Carthage declares war on me and never send a single unit against me. If you want to play a game about civilizations shuffling their armies around ineffectually, Civilization V remains the game for you, and now it has new units to shuffle around ineffectually.


-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #375 on: June 18, 2012, 05:02:08 PM »

Yeah, RPS also has an article saying more or less the same thing - only nicer.

I don't think I'm bothering with it.  I'll stick to playing Civ IV.
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« Reply #376 on: June 18, 2012, 05:27:24 PM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on June 18, 2012, 04:51:34 PM

Quote from: ydejin on June 10, 2012, 11:22:10 PM

Here is the best summary of Civ V: Gods and Kings that I've seen.  It should give you a very good idea of exactly what is getting added.  What it won't tell you is what they've managed to fix from the original game.


On that point, Tom Chick is absolutely savaging the expansion.

Quote from: Tom Chick
Some new units make an appearance, and most notably the naval balance has been reworked. Itís hard for me to care about this when the computer is still incapable of playing the game as designed. Mongolia throws units after unit into my defenses, so I couldnít care less what the units are. France parks armies underneath ranged fire and waits for them to die, so what does it matter if I kill them with a new tank or a biplane bomber? Siam marches its generals up to my front lines. Carthage declares war on me and never send a single unit against me. If you want to play a game about civilizations shuffling their armies around ineffectually, Civilization V remains the game for you, and now it has new units to shuffle around ineffectually.


-Autistic Angel

Tom Chick wouldn't know a good game if it hit him in the nose.  He's the same asswipe who gave Civ V a 50 (Metacritic: 90) Fallout 3: NV a "F" and shat all over Skyrim.  Essentially, if it's a blockbuster PC release, either Chick drools all over it or shits all over it - there's no middle ground.  But if it's an indie release, he just drools all over it.  He's the Armond White of game reviewers, and that's not a good thing.  
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 05:29:05 PM by Blackadar » Logged

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« Reply #377 on: June 18, 2012, 08:38:14 PM »

He is a bit of a TBS game grognard though so you'd think his opinion might be useful when it comes to a game like Civilization.
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« Reply #378 on: June 18, 2012, 08:49:36 PM »

Quote from: skystride on June 18, 2012, 08:38:14 PM

He is a bit of a TBS game grognard though so you'd think his opinion might be useful when it comes to a game like Civilization.

If you think Civilization V was a 50/100 type of game, then by all means, read his shtick.  If you think that grading Civ V lower than Elemental is ludicrous, then you probably won't get much out of his reviews and nor should you.  Does anyone think that it's just coincidence that his score on Gods and Kings is half the consensus Metacritic score?  Of course not.  He shit all over Civ V and now he has to justify it on the expansion. 

As I said, he's the Armond White of game reviewers.
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« Reply #379 on: June 18, 2012, 08:51:54 PM »

The live stream has started.  So far he's chosen Boudica of the Celts, and is playing a "Quick" game on King Difficulty.

Unlike the Civ IV expansions, the same narrator is used for the new intro dialogue and such.

EDIT: It seems that having forest tiles near cities helps the Celts to generate more faith per turn, so he's able to found his Pantheon of the Gods after just three turns.  It brings up a big list of starting bonuses, so he's deciding to worship the God of War which will generate additional Faith anytime he wins a battle within four tiles of a city.

He's also encountered one of the new City State types: a Mercantile state that can be courted to generate extra happiness across your civilization.

EDIT 2: The hitpoint system has been changed to add greater granularity: his starting Scout starts off with 100 hit points and is knocked down to 61 after an unsuccessful attack against some barbarians.

His first Social Policy appears and he chooses Honor to get the combat bonus against Barbarians.  Montezuma is the first full AI civ he encounters, and the chat is really glad they've been goading him towards a more war-focused opening.

EDIT 3: He conquers a nearby Barbarian camp which gives him 16 Gold instead of the traditional 25.  He loses his warrior in a counterattack from another Barbarian unit, and picks up another rank in the Honor social tree.

He also gets a notification that an Unknown Civilzation has started worshiping their own Pantheon of the Gods, and he can see that their chosen power is to heal an extra 30 HP when adjacent to a friendly city.  Now that that perk has been taken, no one else will be able to get it.

EDIT 4: His capital city bombards a nearby Barbarian to death, generating the same +4 Faith he would have gotten if a unit had lead the attack.  The Incas call up to say hello, and the chat convinces him to Automate his worker so they can see what it does.  There's a new luxury resource nearby, Truffles, but they require Trapping before they can be harvested.

Montezuma wants to set up an Embassy in his capital in exchange for a small amount of gold.  He refuses at the request of the chat, and begins building a shrine in his capital city.

EDIT 5: He has his new Warrior attacking a Barbarian encampment with two enemy Archers adjacent, but they decline to fire at him even as he ransacks the camp.  He then demolishes the archers in melee combat, earning enough XP for a second promotion and the right to give the unit a unique name.

The automated worker appears to building a plantation on a local Dye square, and the chat pushes him to research Trapping so he can pick up the Truffles next.

Notifications pop up from two City States.  One has been bullied by the Aztecs and wants him to Denounce their civ in exchange for an immediate influence boost.  The other requests gold because it was forced to pay extortion money to the Aztecs.

-Autistic Angel
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 09:23:33 PM by Autistic Angel » Logged
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« Reply #380 on: June 18, 2012, 09:01:13 PM »

Quote from: Blackadar on June 18, 2012, 08:49:36 PM

Quote from: skystride on June 18, 2012, 08:38:14 PM

He is a bit of a TBS game grognard though so you'd think his opinion might be useful when it comes to a game like Civilization.

If you think Civilization V was a 50/100 type of game, then by all means, read his shtick.  If you think that grading Civ V lower than Elemental is ludicrous, then you probably won't get much out of his reviews and nor should you.  Does anyone think that it's just coincidence that his score on Gods and Kings is half the consensus Metacritic score?  Of course not.  He shit all over Civ V and now he has to justify it on the expansion. 

As I said, he's the Armond White of game reviewers.

Do you read the text or do you just go by scores?  His complaints about AI are pretty much universally accepted by everyone who played Civ 5.  If he's saying that nothing has been improved in that department, that's relevant information for me affecting my buying decision of the expansion.
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« Reply #381 on: June 18, 2012, 09:30:16 PM »

By denouncing the Aztecs, his relationship with the City State of Ragusa has been elevated all the way to Friendship.  The interface has been improved to show how far into the "Friendship" realm he is compared to "Ally" or "Neutral."  He also declares war against the Aztecs, despite having just two Pictish Warriors and a Great General earned though the Social Policy tree.

A timed quest begins offering a reward to whichever major civ can generate the most Faith over the next twenty turns.

EDIT: A Great Prophet has been created by accumulating enough Faith.  This enables him to found a religion, selecting the Shinto icon to represent it but changing the name to "Gregism."

He then selects a Founding Belief, a special bonus which will only apply to his own civilization no matter how far the religion might spread.  His choice is to recieve +100 Gold every time a new city converts to follow his religion.  A secondary choice then defines Gregism as a religion of Holy Warriors, enabling him to spend Faith points to purchase military units at his discretion.

EDIT 2: The Aztecs move an unescorted Settler near enough to his troops that he's able to bloodlessly seize it for himself.  An Aztec Jaguar warrior was nearby, but it attempted to kill his Scouts and failed to finish the job in a single turn.

The Aztecs then call up and offer a huge sum of gold and 25-turns of free Incense in exchange for peace.  He accepts the deal.

EDIT 3: In the vanilla game, units could choose to use a promotion opportunity to completely heal the unit instead.  When he contemplates using that option in this game, it specifies that it'll only heal the unit up to 50% of its HP.

EDIT 4: His armies burn down the nearest Aztec city and begin marching in towards their capital.  A couple turns later, the Incas come boiling out of their territory in force, declare war, and begin swarming into his area.

The AI is definitely making decisions that seem unwise.  On at least two occasions, it has embarked units into coastal squares it can see will put them them at a disadvantage, and it lost a Great General stationed unattended near its capital even though a military escort was only one move away.

On the plus side, the Incas seemed fairly competent at whittling down his second city and taking it for themselves.

-Autistic Angel
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 10:44:34 PM by Autistic Angel » Logged
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« Reply #382 on: June 18, 2012, 11:18:59 PM »

Quote from: skystride on June 18, 2012, 09:01:13 PM

Quote from: Blackadar on June 18, 2012, 08:49:36 PM

Quote from: skystride on June 18, 2012, 08:38:14 PM

He is a bit of a TBS game grognard though so you'd think his opinion might be useful when it comes to a game like Civilization.

If you think Civilization V was a 50/100 type of game, then by all means, read his shtick.  If you think that grading Civ V lower than Elemental is ludicrous, then you probably won't get much out of his reviews and nor should you.  Does anyone think that it's just coincidence that his score on Gods and Kings is half the consensus Metacritic score?  Of course not.  He shit all over Civ V and now he has to justify it on the expansion.  

As I said, he's the Armond White of game reviewers.

Do you read the text or do you just go by scores?  His complaints about AI are pretty much universally accepted by everyone who played Civ 5.  If he's saying that nothing has been improved in that department, that's relevant information for me affecting my buying decision of the expansion.

If you have a hangnail, do you carry on like you broke your arm?  If you have a broken arm, do you carry on like it's terminal cancer?  That's Chick's reviews in a nutshell.

I don't want to turn this into the Tom Chickenshit thread, but just realize how far out of the mainstream he is on his reviews. 
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 11:26:04 PM by Blackadar » Logged

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« Reply #383 on: June 18, 2012, 11:37:36 PM »

Well, I was on the fence until you swayed me with your persuasive "Tom Chickenshit" name.
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« Reply #384 on: June 19, 2012, 02:38:07 AM »

Quote from: Blackadar on June 18, 2012, 05:27:24 PM

Quote from: Autistic Angel on June 18, 2012, 04:51:34 PM

Quote from: ydejin on June 10, 2012, 11:22:10 PM

Here is the best summary of Civ V: Gods and Kings that I've seen.  It should give you a very good idea of exactly what is getting added.  What it won't tell you is what they've managed to fix from the original game.


On that point, Tom Chick is absolutely savaging the expansion.

Quote from: Tom Chick
Some new units make an appearance, and most notably the naval balance has been reworked. Itís hard for me to care about this when the computer is still incapable of playing the game as designed. Mongolia throws units after unit into my defenses, so I couldnít care less what the units are. France parks armies underneath ranged fire and waits for them to die, so what does it matter if I kill them with a new tank or a biplane bomber? Siam marches its generals up to my front lines. Carthage declares war on me and never send a single unit against me. If you want to play a game about civilizations shuffling their armies around ineffectually, Civilization V remains the game for you, and now it has new units to shuffle around ineffectually.


-Autistic Angel

Tom Chick wouldn't know a good game if it hit him in the nose.  He's the same asswipe who gave Civ V a 50 (Metacritic: 90) Fallout 3: NV a "F" and shat all over Skyrim.  Essentially, if it's a blockbuster PC release, either Chick drools all over it or shits all over it - there's no middle ground.  But if it's an indie release, he just drools all over it.  He's the Armond White of game reviewers, and that's not a good thing.  

Civ V was released with the AI unable or unwilling to build aircraft which means that anti-aircraft and fighters were almost completely useless.  It continually sent unguarded embarked high-expense land units into my destroyers where they promptly wiped them out.  It still (as of last week) puts unguarded generals next to my military units while we are at war.  And while the Civ V G&K developer diary talks about how they were going to fix that apparently during their livestream of the expansion this very afternoon it did exactly that during the game.

While the Civ V game mechanics were pretty solid and quite interesting, the fact that the AI was broken and could not actually play the game with any competency means that that 90 metacritic score was way off.  It's indicative of critics who did not play the game to completion, or played it on an easy enough level that they didn't notice that the AI couldn't build airplanes, or perhaps they were completely unobservant.

I could see giving a high 70s score to a game that was very interesting, but the AI was broken.  Or if you really thought the game mechanics were great, maybe even an 80.  But a 90+ score for a game with an AI that can't even handle the game mechanics.  No way.

Those 90 scores were off a lot more than Tom Chick was.  Any reviewer that gives a 90 to a game were the AI can't play a moderately skilled human opponent and is making incredibly stupid mistakes like placing generals alone and unguarded is not worth whatever they are getting paid.  I've beaten Civ V on Diety.  I've never beaten another Civ game above the Emperor level.  The Civ V AI at release was just awful.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 02:44:17 AM by ydejin » Logged
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« Reply #385 on: June 19, 2012, 02:49:41 AM »

I'm gonna agree with both sides. I don't like Chick at all an the Civ 5 AI is basically brain dead. I still love me some Civ 5 though.


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« Reply #386 on: June 19, 2012, 03:08:07 AM »

Quote from: gellar on June 19, 2012, 02:49:41 AM

I'm gonna agree with both sides. I don't like Chick at all an the Civ 5 AI is basically brain dead. I still love me some Civ 5 though.

Yeah, I like it enough that I pre-purchased the expansion.  There's a lot of nifty ideas in there, although it's hard to compete with Soren's excellent Civ 4 design.

But I do think the 90 scores were way over the top and completely out of line given the very poor state of the AI at release.  They really highlight the poor state of reviewing more than they do how out of line Tom Chick was.

As a side note, does anyone else miss the bushels of wheat and hammers/shields in the city screen?  While the Civ V interface looks clean, I preferred seeing a visual indicator of the industrial output of my city rather than just a number.  Somehow seeing the number 25 there is just less satisfying than seeing a full bar of hammers or shields.
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« Reply #387 on: June 19, 2012, 11:56:38 AM »

Quote from: ydejin on June 19, 2012, 02:38:07 AM

I could see giving a high 70s score to a game that was very interesting, but the AI was broken.  Or if you really thought the game mechanics were great, maybe even an 80.  But a 90+ score for a game with an AI that can't even handle the game mechanics.  No way.

Those 90 scores were off a lot more than Tom Chick was.  Any reviewer that gives a 90 to a game were the AI can't play a moderately skilled human opponent and is making incredibly stupid mistakes like placing generals alone and unguarded is not worth whatever they are getting paid.  I've beaten Civ V on Diety.  I've never beaten another Civ game above the Emperor level.  The Civ V AI at release was just awful.

You realize that high 70s or an 80 is a lot closer to a 90 than a 50, right?
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« Reply #388 on: June 19, 2012, 11:58:11 AM »

Quote from: ydejin on June 19, 2012, 03:08:07 AM

As a side note, does anyone else miss the bushels of wheat and hammers/shields in the city screen?  While the Civ V interface looks clean, I preferred seeing a visual indicator of the industrial output of my city rather than just a number.  Somehow seeing the number 25 there is just less satisfying than seeing a full bar of hammers or shields.

You can still see this, you just need to look at the citizen allocation screen to see it, which I like...way less cluttered.
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« Reply #389 on: June 19, 2012, 12:12:35 PM »

Quote from: Blackadar on June 19, 2012, 11:56:38 AM

Quote from: ydejin on June 19, 2012, 02:38:07 AM

I could see giving a high 70s score to a game that was very interesting, but the AI was broken.  Or if you really thought the game mechanics were great, maybe even an 80.  But a 90+ score for a game with an AI that can't even handle the game mechanics.  No way.

Those 90 scores were off a lot more than Tom Chick was.  Any reviewer that gives a 90 to a game were the AI can't play a moderately skilled human opponent and is making incredibly stupid mistakes like placing generals alone and unguarded is not worth whatever they are getting paid.  I've beaten Civ V on Diety.  I've never beaten another Civ game above the Emperor level.  The Civ V AI at release was just awful.

You realize that high 70s or an 80 is a lot closer to a 90 than a 50, right?

Anyone who gave Civ V a score over 80 was either a chump or a stooge.  Really the fact that you're citing Metacritic's 90 score as a sign of Civ V's release quality is more a sign of how broken professional game critics are than anything else.

Are you denying that the game's tactical AI was pitiful at release?  Are you denying that many features of the game (such as anti-aircraft guns) simply weren't useful/relevant because of the poor state of the game AI at release?  If you aren't denying that, how can you in any way complain about a reviewer giving a 50 to a game that is essentially broken?

If anything we should want more critics to pound on games that are poor at release, maybe it will make game companies stop releasing stuff until it's ready. 

Here's another game that was broken at release that has a 90 on MetaCritic: [ulr=http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/empire-total-war]Empire: Total War[/url].  Turns out that the AI couldn't handle naval combat or overseas empires -- kind of a problem given that that's what the game was named after. 

Is this the quality of strategy games that you want the industry releasing?  If not, stop touting the 90+ scores and take a look at why an honest review might decide that these kind of strategy games don't deserve a good score unless their AI can actually play a reasonable game.
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Blackadar
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« Reply #390 on: June 19, 2012, 12:27:47 PM »

Quote from: ydejin on June 19, 2012, 12:12:35 PM

Quote from: Blackadar on June 19, 2012, 11:56:38 AM

Quote from: ydejin on June 19, 2012, 02:38:07 AM

I could see giving a high 70s score to a game that was very interesting, but the AI was broken.  Or if you really thought the game mechanics were great, maybe even an 80.  But a 90+ score for a game with an AI that can't even handle the game mechanics.  No way.

Those 90 scores were off a lot more than Tom Chick was.  Any reviewer that gives a 90 to a game were the AI can't play a moderately skilled human opponent and is making incredibly stupid mistakes like placing generals alone and unguarded is not worth whatever they are getting paid.  I've beaten Civ V on Diety.  I've never beaten another Civ game above the Emperor level.  The Civ V AI at release was just awful.

You realize that high 70s or an 80 is a lot closer to a 90 than a 50, right?

Anyone who gave Civ V a score over 80 was either a chump or a stooge.  Really the fact that you're citing Metacritic's 90 score as a sign of Civ V's release quality is more a sign of how broken professional game critics are than anything else.

Are you denying that the game's tactical AI was pitiful at release?  Are you denying that many features of the game (such as anti-aircraft guns) simply weren't useful/relevant because of the poor state of the game AI at release?  If you aren't denying that, how can you in any way complain about a reviewer giving a 50 to a game that is essentially broken?

If anything we should want more critics to pound on games that are poor at release, maybe it will make game companies stop releasing stuff until it's ready.  

Here's another game that was broken at release that has a 90 on MetaCritic: [ulr=http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/empire-total-war]Empire: Total War[/url].  Turns out that the AI couldn't handle naval combat or overseas empires -- kind of a problem given that that's what the game was named after.  

Is this the quality of strategy games that you want the industry releasing?  If not, stop touting the 90+ scores and take a look at why an honest review might decide that these kind of strategy games don't deserve a good score unless their AI can actually play a reasonable game.

Nice try in shifting tactics.  Let me know when 50 is closer to 80 than 90 is.  But I'll play along.

As far as the rest of it, the AI in every Civ game hasn't been good and Civ V was no exception.  There were (and remain) issues with the AI's treatment of tactical combat.  It still put up a decent challenge, still worked, didn't crash, etc.  But that's a far, far cry from the game being "broken".  Elemental was broken.  The hyperbole of trying to claim Civ V was/is "broken" doesn't serve you well.  
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ydejin
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« Reply #391 on: June 19, 2012, 12:43:56 PM »

Quote from: Blackadar on June 19, 2012, 12:27:47 PM

As far as the rest of it, the AI in every Civ game hasn't been good and Civ V was no exception.  There were (and remain) issues with the AI's treatment of tactical combat.  It still put up a decent challenge, still worked, didn't crash, etc.  But that's a far, far cry from the game being "broken".  Elemental was broken.  The hyperbole of trying to claim Civ V was/is "broken" doesn't serve you well.  

The AI in Civ V is the worst in a Civ game release.  As I posted earlier, I've beaten the game on Deity.  I'm not a particularly great player (decent, but not great),   I normally play on Emperor.  For me to beat the game on Deity means the game has AI has some serious issues.

More importantly there's a difference between not being very good and not being able to use one of the three branches of a modern military.  The game should not have been released until the AI was able to use the airplanes which were prominently featured in the tech tree.
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Blackadar
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« Reply #392 on: June 20, 2012, 12:36:51 PM »

That still doesn't come close to "broken", ydejin.  Not using one branch of one era of military units effectively isn't anywhere near broken.  MOO3 was broken.  Elemental was the epitome of broken.  Ultima 8 was broken.  Empire:TW was broken in multiple ways (game crashing bugs, ATI cards couldn't load the game, the AI didn't have any code to undertake seaborne invasions).  Civ V's issues don't come anywhere near those. 

Remember, I'm of the mindset that Civ IV >>> Civ V.  That doesn't make Civ V a bad game though.  Civ IV just happens to be the best TBS game of all time in my book.  If I were still writing reviews on games, I'd have given Civ V somewhere between an 82-85 (or a Silver award on GamesDomain) - not the Gold award level that I gave SMAC many years ago.  Who knows, maybe Sid Meier told him to fuck off sometime in the past or maybe the bribe check for a good review bounced.  But when there's 70 reviews and there's one that's 20 points lower than the 2nd lowest score, that's someone with an obvious axe to grind. 

Oh, interestingly enough, that's about the same score I'd have given Civ IV vanilla.  It was only the BtS expansion that somehow made all the pieces of that game fit perfectly.  There are so many broken/lousy systems in that game, yet it somehow all works brilliantly.  I probably have over 1,000 hours invested in Civ IV - I've won with every leader in that game.  At least twice.   eek
---

Let's get back to actual experiences on playing Civ V.

I played the expansion for about 4 hours last night and I have to say I'm liking it - a lot - so far. The whole religion aspect gives a new dimension to the game, though one I don't fully understand yet. But still, it's a new "arrow in the quiver" and a pretty large on at that. I'm just now getting to some espionage, but that looks a little more tacked on since you don't even play that from the regular map. But given the annoyances with spying in Civ 4, maybe that's not a bad thing. The new tech tree offers some good choices so I don't feel as constrained as before.

But it's not just the new toys. It's the whole host of tweaks that matter the most. Like the free settler bonus in the Liberty tree. Because it's buried deeper, it's no longer the "chop rush/Oracle" strategy of Civ V - you know, the automatic one you lead off with every time. Or that siege units don't take resources, allowing a resource-poor nation to actually mount an attack. Or the new bowmen, which fills a needed gap. Or the unit HPs being increased to 100 - it's not THAT different, but it does change things somewhat - battles feel a touch more epic. Siege weapons are now awesome against cities, but so unbelievably weak against regular units. You got to get them in, set up and you will lose one or two during the course of a city siege.  All of those little changes make sense and improve the same in a myriad of ways.  I don't think I've stumbled across one yet that I didn't think improved the original game.

REX has been the dominant strategy in every Civ. I think Civ V probably gives players the most options if they don't want to REX than any in the series. And for those of us who like to build large, expansive empires, at least it's a little easier now. Before, with happiness so damned scarce, anything more than 4-5 cities was often impossible. But resources are still grouped, so REXing still requires trading partners to pull off. That requires diplomacy and having some friends, something that wasn't always necessary in prior versions of the Civ series.  So you still can't expand willy-nilly, but it is a bit easier now.  That helps for those of us who really like city specialization.

The AI still isn't great, but I think it's improved. Suleiman launched a very early attack on one of my cities. It happened that the city was relatively undefended, so I got to watch him set up his units around the city. He set up everything right. Of course, what he didn't count on was my units coming from other cities on the flanks of his attacks (my units happened to be above and below that city, so I didn't come from behind it as any opponent would expect). When I simultaneously hit him on both sides, he was in big trouble and I quickly decimated his units. He was smart enough to pull back and sue for peace before I launched a counterattack - gave me some gold and some resources and then quickly asked for a statement of friendship. I thought that was pretty decently smart of the AI - it knew that it was in a bad way and decided to cut it's losses before I could counterattack and make things much worse. And since I was worried about the Austrians to my north, I took the deal.

But it's still not great. Later on, I took on the Austrians and they were pretty pathetic. I pretty much rolled them. Of course, they had been in a few conflicts and with only a couple of cities, there wasn't much they could do. The AI had a couple of chances to take out a couple of my archers, but then again they'd have lost those units the next turn, so I'm not sure if that was just bad AI or just a very weak opponent.

Overall - I'm having a great time. I liked Civ V (I had 100 hours in it after all), but this just feels more "complete". I have more choices and I don't feel locked into one or two paths. I can REX again, but I'm still limited by the happiness. I'll need another 20 hours or so to make a final determination, but so far so good.
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Autistic Angel
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« Reply #393 on: June 21, 2012, 04:11:56 PM »

Has anyone been able to determine if religion affects diplomacy?  City states sometimes offer quests to learn your religion, but I can't tell if I should feel more threatened by other players with different faiths.

-Autistic Angel
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ydejin
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« Reply #394 on: June 21, 2012, 09:38:34 PM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on June 21, 2012, 04:11:56 PM

Has anyone been able to determine if religion affects diplomacy?  City states sometimes offer quests to learn your religion, but I can't tell if I should feel more threatened by other players with different faiths.

It's supposed to per Well of Souls:

Quote
Foreign civilizations will now consider your Religion and the Social Policies you've chosen when deciding whether or not to like you. Religion will be more important early in the game; the diplomatic modifiers for Religion will increase during the Medieval and Renaissance ages, but will then decrease thereafter.

My only experience with religion and diplomacy is that Elizabeth got really ticked off at me when I sent my Great Prophet down to London and converted it from her religion to my religion.  I was surprised at how much of a swing there was, it instantly went from majority Elizabeth's religion to 10/12 population to my religion.  The immediate diplomatic impact of Elizabeth's capital getting converted to my relgiion was Elizabeth complaining about my religious activity.  I told her we would send our missionaries wherever we damn well pleased.
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« Reply #395 on: June 28, 2012, 09:05:22 PM »

I'm enjoying it so far but it's not as stable with the expansion installed.  Last night it hung (no crash) at 197 turns.  Hope it was a one time thing but it worries me because the original was pretty solid for long games.
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« Reply #396 on: June 30, 2012, 02:20:36 PM »

Quote from: Blackadar on June 18, 2012, 11:18:59 PM

If you have a hangnail, do you carry on like you broke your arm?  If you have a broken arm, do you carry on like it's terminal cancer?  That's Chick's reviews in a nutshell.

I don't want to turn this into the Tom Chickenshit thread, but just realize how far out of the mainstream he is on his reviews.  
I could understand the review if he is grading civ on a curve... if a child (new indie) makes a nice game with flaws - do you encourage him?  If the grandfather 30-40 years experience CONTINUES TO MAKE THE SAME MISTAKES OVER AND OVER - do you want to say not good enough (they should know better by now)?

I bought ciV on one of the sales but my old machine won't play it well (it almost crashes on the intro movie but just plays the game too slow to deal with it)...

I am shocked(!!) that the were not able to make a game that could play with units they designed (cIV had a similar issue with the game not being able to fight using planes/ships/etc at launch, iirc cIIIv also had similar individual unit issues at launch and continued to have submarine and other issues when it was "complete").

Firaxis should know better by now.

If they can't make the game play with planes at launch they need to stop putting planes in their games... make us buy the plane expansion AFTER they worked all the kinks out  Tongue


just curious - has anyone had the AI win a game (or attempt to win a game) in more than one category?


Quote
Sometimes I wonder if Firaxis is playing their own game.
from the chick review... I think that about alot of companies...

I also wonder what would happen if the Firaxis AI Strategy Programming Department would do if it programed a chess game?

The ai would never use the pawn diagonal move
The ai would only move the queen one square at a time
The ai would never move the knight... I mean cmon! Jump 2 and then one to the left or right?  THATS CRAZY!!!
« Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 11:10:34 PM by notrich » Logged
Turtle
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« Reply #397 on: July 01, 2012, 10:57:15 AM »

Chess AI's aren't that difficult. It's kind of a brute force approach even with chess.

Chess AI never has to deal with more spaces than an 8 x 8 board.
Chess AI never has to deal with any more meta than the next moves
Chess AI never has to deal with choosing what units to build
... managing resource income and expenses
... cities
... technology trees
... variable attack outcomes
... variable attack strengths
... world maps
... oceans
... impassable mountains

Most of the amazing chess AI you hear about like the IBM one actually have a big team of programmers working on it after every match, correcting for mistakes. They can't learn on their own that well.

Not that I'm giving anyone a pass on bad AI. But have some perspective on this. Chess AI isn't all that special.
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notrich
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« Reply #398 on: July 01, 2012, 04:53:33 PM »

Quote from: Turtle on July 01, 2012, 10:57:15 AM


Not that I'm giving anyone a pass on bad AI. But have some perspective on this. Chess AI isn't all that special.
Honestly I thought my point was clear that Firaxis would not use the moves that the pieces were DESIGNED to use in their AI.

Quote from: Turtle on July 01, 2012, 10:57:15 AM

Most of the amazing chess AI you hear about like the IBM one actually have a big team of programmers working on it after every match, correcting for mistakes. They can't learn on their own that well.
There was a pretty cool mod - iirc it was called genetic AI (or something like that) - for cIV.  You would send in your reports post game and the various AIs were graded on performance - and either tweaked or not.  It is a shame that firaxis didn't do something similar for this game (an opt in for people to send post game reports to a worldwide database to gather data on successful game AI settings).

if the AI is as bad as has been reported in ciV- why aren't people adjusting the AI code themselves?  has it been locked down?  (or is there a file somewhere similar to the one in cIV that is fully moddable)
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Ironrod
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« Reply #399 on: July 01, 2012, 05:25:34 PM »

Quote from: notrich on July 01, 2012, 04:53:33 PM

if the AI is as bad as has been reported in ciV- why aren't people adjusting the AI code themselves?  has it been locked down?  (or is there a file somewhere similar to the one in cIV that is fully moddable)

My understanding, from reading the civfanatics forum for the NiGHTS mod, is that modders do not have access to the DLL file(s). The creator of that mod gripes about it periodically. He adjusts various parameters to minimize the AI's weaknesses, but can't alter the AI itself.

I agree with your suggestion about developers tweaking the AI. Stardock did that with the GalCiv2 Multiverse. When saved games were uploaded to be counted in the player's ranking, Stardock used them to adjust their AI to use and counter the best players' actual strategies. GC2 had the best AI I've ever seen in a 4X game. Plus the Multiverse conveyed a sense of community and competition that I really wish Civ had.

The consensus on the civfanatics board is that the G&C AI is significantly improved. This is the thread if you want to read the chatter:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=464730

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