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Author Topic: By Request! Zelda Impressions!  (Read 10745 times)
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Kevin Grey
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« Reply #80 on: December 26, 2006, 03:05:09 PM »

Been playing since Christmas Eve.  About 8 hours in, on my way to the second dungeon and, wow, it's even better than I expected even after a month of awesome impressions. 

And I think the visuals are spectacular. Of course I've been able to play in progressive scan from the get go on a 32" CRT HDTV which is probably the sweet spot for this technology.  Muddy textures are about thing I could complain about.  The lighting, draw distance, animation, little details, etc are alll spectacular.  And the Twilight Realm is flatout one of the most amazing (and unique) gaming environments I've ever seen.

First dungeon was very impressive for a "starter" dungeon.  Much longer and more elaborate than I was expecting for a beginning dungeon with remarkably little hand holding (Okami I'm looking at you). 
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« Reply #81 on: January 02, 2007, 09:11:34 PM »

Quick non-spoiler question for those who have finished the game:

I'm a bit over halfway through the seventh dungeon.  How much longer is there in the game?  I know the 8th and 9th dungeons are considerably shorter than usual.  I figure by the time I hit the 9th dungeon I'll probably want to see it through to the end in one sitting but I don't want to accidentally stay up until 3 or 4am on a work night doing that.  I should be able to get in 3 or 4 hours tonight and I'm sure I can make it to the 9th dungeon in that time but don't know if I want to go farther. 

FWIW, I'm not worried about side stuff at this point.  I have more than enough hearts, I've found all the bugs, etc so I'm pretty much in a straight run for the ending at this point. 
« Last Edit: January 02, 2007, 09:13:47 PM by Kevin Grey » Logged
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« Reply #82 on: January 02, 2007, 09:39:56 PM »

Quote from: Kevin Grey on January 02, 2007, 09:11:34 PM

Quick non-spoiler question for those who have finished the game:

I'm a bit over halfway through the seventh dungeon.  How much longer is there in the game?  I know the 8th and 9th dungeons are considerably shorter than usual.  I figure by the time I hit the 9th dungeon I'll probably want to see it through to the end in one sitting but I don't want to accidentally stay up until 3 or 4am on a work night doing that.  I should be able to get in 3 or 4 hours tonight and I'm sure I can make it to the 9th dungeon in that time but don't know if I want to go farther. 

FWIW, I'm not worried about side stuff at this point.  I have more than enough hearts, I've found all the bugs, etc so I'm pretty much in a straight run for the ending at this point. 

my rough estimate: 3-4 hours tonight, from where you are, might get you to the beginning of #9. another 2 hrs & you're done...
« Last Edit: January 02, 2007, 09:46:58 PM by semiconscious » Logged

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« Reply #83 on: January 03, 2007, 03:33:49 PM »

Quote from: semiconscious on January 02, 2007, 09:39:56 PM

my rough estimate: 3-4 hours tonight, from where you are, might get you to the beginning of #9. another 2 hrs & you're done...

Looks like you were about right.  I didn't get in as much time last night as I planned, but just over two hours put me halfway through dungeon 8, so it sounds like maybe 3-4 hours to go so hopefully I'll finish tonight (maybe hopefully isn't the right word since it's not like I want the game to end...l)
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« Reply #84 on: January 03, 2007, 04:26:03 PM »

Just finished the 7th dungeon last night. The boss at the end of the dungeon is the highlight of the game for me. Both the 6th and 7th dungeons had a really strong Prince of Persia vibe for me. The 6th dungeon reminded me of the palace in the Sands of Time (and I wonder if the dungeon's name is a bit of an homage to the game) and the 7th dungeon reminded me somewhat of the garden in Warrior Within. Both dungeon's were a lot of fun to play.

So far my my one real complaint is some of the content recycling. I didn't enjoy chasing the hornblower around the first time, and it wasn't enjoyable at alll to have to do it again. Other than that, I have no real complaints about the second half of the game. It really picks up once I got past the third dungeon.

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« Reply #85 on: January 03, 2007, 04:33:09 PM »

Andrew, the name of the 6th dungeon isn't a PoP reference it's
Spoiler for Hiden:
a direct reference to Ocarina of Time.  The Temple of Time was the location of the time travel mechanic used in that game and the temple entrance and theme that plays in the area where you insert the Master Sword is straight out of OoT.  The dungeon itself is completely new content though.

Agreed on the quality of the 6th and 7th dungeons though I have to say that I didn't think they were quite able to achieve their visual ambitions for the 7th dungeon.  Better in concept than execution IMO and really the only weak link in the graphics so far IMO.  I loved the boss to the 7th dungeon but I think the 4th dungeon boss fight is still tops for the game so far. 
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« Reply #86 on: January 03, 2007, 04:33:54 PM »

Also, hornblower?  I'm not sure I know what chase you are referring to. 
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« Reply #87 on: January 03, 2007, 04:40:40 PM »

Quote from: Kevin Grey on January 03, 2007, 04:33:54 PM

Also, hornblower?  I'm not sure I know what chase you are referring to. 

Spoiler for Hiden:
Chasing the little munchkin around the forest before he grants access to the 6th dungeon.
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« Reply #88 on: January 03, 2007, 04:43:02 PM »

Quote from: Kevin Grey on January 03, 2007, 04:33:09 PM

Andrew, the name of the 6th dungeon isn't a PoP reference it's
Spoiler for Hiden:
a direct reference to Ocarina of Time.  The Temple of Time was the location of the time travel mechanic used in that game and the temple entrance and theme that plays in the area where you insert the Master Sword is straight out of OoT.  The dungeon itself is completely new content though.


Gotcha. I haven't played OoT, other than fooling around in the opening dungeon after getting OoT as the pre-order bonus for Wind Waker.
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« Reply #89 on: January 03, 2007, 04:51:02 PM »

Quote from: Andrew Mallon on January 03, 2007, 04:40:40 PM

Quote from: Kevin Grey on January 03, 2007, 04:33:54 PM

Also, hornblower?  I'm not sure I know what chase you are referring to. 

Spoiler for Hiden:
Chasing the little munchkin around the forest before he grants access to the 6th dungeon.

Ah, got you.  Yeah, I guess that was repetitive but I enjoyed that section so I didn't mind.

Quote from: Andrew Mallon on January 03, 2007, 04:43:02 PM

Quote from: Kevin Grey on January 03, 2007, 04:33:09 PM

Andrew, the name of the 6th dungeon isn't a PoP reference it's
Spoiler for Hiden:
a direct reference to Ocarina of Time.  The Temple of Time was the location of the time travel mechanic used in that game and the temple entrance and theme that plays in the area where you insert the Master Sword is straight out of OoT.  The dungeon itself is completely new content though.


Gotcha. I haven't played OoT, other than fooling around in the opening dungeon after getting OoT as the pre-order bonus for Wind Waker.

OoT is still more than worth a playthrough even though it's control mechanics take some getting used to since it's a double step back from the TP on the Wii to Wind Waker to OoT. 

TP is interesting to me though because in some ways it does effectively replace OoT, the Zelda game it resembles the most.  While I'm pretty much ready to call TP the best Zelda game yet, Majora's Mask and Wind Waker have enough unique elements that they all stand alone and represent unique experiences in and of themselves.  Especially MM which is utterly unique even for Zelda games and is a truly brilliant acheivement.  But after playing TP, I think going back to OoT would be a lot tougher.  Still, worth playing if you've never played it before, especially with the time switching mechanic and some of the dungeons are really great.  But for me, TP has made me want to go back and replay WW and MM, but not so much OoT. 
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« Reply #90 on: January 03, 2007, 04:57:45 PM »

A Link to the Past and Ocarina of Time are two of the games on my list of "perfect 10" scores for games. icon_wink Hearing all these comparisons of TP to OoT is certainly encouraging.
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« Reply #91 on: January 03, 2007, 07:11:05 PM »

Quote from: Andrew Mallon on January 03, 2007, 04:26:03 PM

I didn't enjoy chasing the hornblower around the first time, and it wasn't enjoyable at alll to have to do it again.

wasn't crazy about that part, either, despite 'the hornblower' being a surprise cameo appearance by maybe my all-time #1 favorite video game villain:

Spoiler for Hiden:
skull kid, from majora's mask...

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« Reply #92 on: January 04, 2007, 02:32:34 PM »

Finished this up last night.  I thought it was pretty fantastic which is pretty apparent when you consider I started playing on Christmas Eve and have since put just under 60 hours into it. 

As mentioned above, I think it was the best Zelda game yet.  However, if Wind Waker had been completed as planned I would probably prefer that one.  With Twilight Princess, I'm so happy that in an era where more and more games are cutting back on content that Nintendo really gave us a feast with this game.  With nine dungeons, an enormous overworld, the best minigames ever, and tons of exciting setpieces outside of the dungeons the sheer amount of content here is amazing. 

Pacing- pretty much perfect.  Even though the game probably took me 20 or so hours more to complete than OoT and WW did, TP felt shorter.  And I mean that as a good thing. 

Graphics- Completely stunning.  I'm not kidding when I say I would rank this with the best visuals I've seen, and I've got a 360 hooked up to my HDTV.  There are a couple of rough areas (Dungeon 7), but this game shouldn't be judged by screenshots.  Progressive scan makes a world of difference here. It was pretty amazing the difference in detail in cycling between 480i and 480p, both over component, with the former looking very blurry.  I can't even imagine what this must have looked like over composite. 

Interface- When they announced at E3 that this game wouldn't be compatible with the Cube controller I was kind of worried.  I even thought about picking up the Cube version as a "backup" just in case I didn't take to the controls.  Well, I shouldn't have worried- the interface is perfect.

The best compliment I can make on the interface is that the game actually feels like it was designed for the Wii even though I know it wasn't.  Almost all of the most important and frequently used items in the game use the pointer functionality.  And the attacks are really intuitive- I've used the spin attack probably 100 times more than I ever have in a previous Zelda game and the shield bash is rather cool and easy to pull off too.  I didn't miss the lack of camera control either since I thought the game had a pretty much perfect independent camera. 

Difficultly:  I'll discuss this in two areas:

Puzzles- pretty much perfect.  They always play fair and the solutions are usually pretty intuitive so when I was stuck it was never so long that I got frustrated and went running for a FAQ.  But it was never so easy that I never felt challenged either.

Combat- really want this to be harder.  I *love* combat in 3D Zeldas, especially Wind Waker and here.  I got all of the hidden skills and they are so much fun and tactical to use.  I just wish most enemies didn't go down so easy although some of the later sword and shield enemies were pretty tough and and tons of fun.

In general, Zelda games (and the genre itself really especially when you consider Okami) have a sort of screwed up reward system.  Hearts are used as the most common "reward" currency but it's generally the hardcore players who are going to be motivated to seek out all of the extra hearts in the overworld and dungeons.  But it's also the hardcore player who probably wants the game to be more challenging.  So you get this weird relationship where the more you explore the easier everything gets.  It's a tough nut to crack and needs a radical thinking of the reward system.  At a minimum I would be happy if they implemented difficulty levels.

Level Design- Zelda has always been the gold standard in this area and they certainly don't rest on their laurels.  While the first three dungeons are familiar, starting with the fourth dungeons they really start to play with the formula to great effect:

Spoiler for Hiden:
  The spinner and ball and chain are wonderfully unique items for this series and really turned their level designs on their head.  Then you've got fake outs during boss fights where they don't end where you expect they would, and even dungeons that aren't really dungeons in the classical sense (Snowpeak Mansion, City in the Sky). 

After all of these Zelda games I was worried they might have exhausted their creativity in this area but I couldn't have been more wrong. 

Minigames  I won't spoil what they are but TP has the best collection ever IMO.  Their presentation is really outstanding and very cinematic. 

Story:  *Very* disappointing.  The presentation itself is really excellent- cutscene quality took a major jump here with sequences that could almost be mistaken as coming out of Square-Enix.  But the overall story itself was kind of confusing.  I couldn't help but be confused about the relationship between Hyrule, the Sacred Realm, and the Twilight Realm and then trying to fit that stuff into existing series continuity as tenuous as it is. 

In particular
Spoiler for Hiden:
I didn't care for how Zelda was marginalized.  She really had almost no role to play in the story.  I wish they hadn't put her in the game at all- it wouldn't be the first Zelda game not to have her.  But by introducing her early on they created a certain expectation which was never followed up IMO.  And much as I liked Midna, I thought that introduced an issue with the traditional silent protagonist Link.  Midna gets so much dialogue during the last couple of areas as she faces off with Zant and Ganon that Link just feels like a bystander here and not a real player in events

Again, loved the presentation of this stuff and hope to see that continue with a better, more coherent story in the future.  This was an area that Wind Waker stomped TP in. 

Collection/Sidquests- Another disappointment.  Just didn't feel like as much to do in these areas as the previous 3D Zeldas.  And what's there gets tied up in with the reward system issues mentioned above since hearts are the usual reward.  And Rupees are completely useless!  This really needs to be fixed in the future because they throw so much money at you with so little to spend it on that the Rupee has all the buying power of a Peso. 

I've got a few other disappointments with the game but I honestly don't want to dwell on them because what I liked was *so* incredible that it wouldn't really be representative of my feelings to spend too much time speaking on areas that I didn't care for. 

Overall, TP has really set the bar for the series and I'm frankly nervous about what the first Zelda made from the ground up for Wii will bring.  TP is basically refines the gameplay and world seen in Link to the Past and Ocarina of Time to such a great extent that I think the series now needs to diverge again like it did with Majora's Mask. 

Overall, I agree with every astronomic score this game received.  It's certainly my GOTY.

Now bring on Phantom Hourglass. 
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« Reply #93 on: January 04, 2007, 05:26:54 PM »

Quote from: Kevin Grey on January 04, 2007, 02:32:34 PM

In particular
Spoiler for Hiden:
And much as I liked Midna, I thought that introduced an issue with the traditional silent protagonist Link.  Midna gets so much dialogue during the last couple of areas as she faces off with Zant and Ganon that Link just feels like a bystander here and not a real player in events

The problem here is that Link is always a silent character. And in a story driven game (which TP is IMHO), you need somebody to do all the talking. Thus, you get what you described.

Quote
Overall, I agree with every astronomic score this game received.  It's certainly my GOTY. 

Agreed. Yeah, it came out at the end of the year, but it's definitely my GOTY as well. Oh, and hell with Gamespot (and a few other rare sites) for killing the average score of the game.

Excellent review, BTW. Couldn't have put it better myself (and I used to be a reviewer here).
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« Reply #94 on: January 04, 2007, 06:20:04 PM »

Quote from: Destructor on January 04, 2007, 05:26:54 PM

The problem here is that Link is always a silent character. And in a story driven game (which TP is IMHO), you need somebody to do all the talking. Thus, you get what you described.

Yeah, I think if they want to continue going down this more story heavy path in the future they need to address this.  I'm not sure I want Link talking  or anything but something needs to be done.  It wasn't a problem in Wind Waker because the art style and animation really gave Link character so that you could pretty much always feel like you know what he was thinking and he conveys his emotions without the need for dialogue.  TP Link, on the other hand, is much more of a blank slate.

Quote from: Destructor
Excellent review, BTW. Couldn't have put it better myself (and I used to be a reviewer here).

Thanks!
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« Reply #95 on: January 04, 2007, 06:27:01 PM »

Not sure I've said this yet, but this game will pretty much HAVE to be the best game ever in order for me to finish it.
You see, I play games at an extremely slow pace (e.g. 60 hours to finish Enchanted Arms w/o going to the late-game optional shrines).
Most reviews quoted that game at 30-40 hours.

So far, I'm 7 hours into TP and just got the Gale Boomerang (which is awesome btw).
How long did it take you guys to get to that point, do you think?

I figure I'm looking at 100 hours minimum, which will make it the only game I've ever played that much
that wasn't an MMO or had "Diablo" in the title...possible exception for oooold Wizardy/Ultima games.
With many games, I lose interest at roughly the 20 hour mark. M&L Partners in Time is a good example.
I really enjoyed the heck out of it for about 20 hours, then put it down and was done.
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« Reply #96 on: January 04, 2007, 06:29:52 PM »

Quote from: Kevin Grey
Collection/Sidquests- Another disappointment.  Just didn't feel like as much to do in these areas as the previous 3D Zeldas.  And what's there gets tied up in with the reward system issues mentioned above since hearts are the usual reward.  And Rupees are completely useless!  This really needs to be fixed in the future because they throw so much money at you with so little to spend it on that the Rupee has all the buying power of a Peso. 

Nice writeup. I wanted to comment on this because this seems to be a systemic problem with the Zelda series in general. Wind Waker has this lengthy quest where you have to carry hot spring water to six different locations on the map within a twenty minute time limit. It's also impossible to complete the quest when you first encounter it because you don't have access to warp points yet.

It took me three tries to complete it. The first time I failed because I didn't have the warp points. The second time I failed because I just needed more practice with choosing the order in which I should visit the spots on the map. When I finally completed it the third time, what was my reward? A quarter-heart upgrade. The same reward I could get for finding a random cave with a treasure chest in it.

I remember being so freaking pissed after finishing it that I posted a lengthy rant about it on the Gone Gold message board. I think I hated the game at that point because I thought it was such an epic, time-consuming quest that there would be something really special at the end of it, like an optional weapon or something. It really diminished the game for me.

As you described so nicely, TP has the same problem, although I'm not as disappointed as I was with Wind Waker because I knew what to expect in TP. The comment about throwing money at you is spot on. A lot of times I'll have my wallet filled when I encounter a treasure chest that contains rupees, so I just throw on the magic armor to consume all of my rupees so I don't have to leave the chest unopened.

I really hope they address this in the next game. Maybe they could do something like weapon upgrades that are useful against certain types of enemies. That would certainly be better than just giving out heart upgrades for all sidequests, regardless of difficulty.
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« Reply #97 on: January 04, 2007, 06:30:37 PM »

Quote from: Misguided on January 04, 2007, 06:27:01 PM

Not sure I've said this yet, but this game will pretty much HAVE to be the best game ever in order for me to finish it.
You see, I play games at an extremely slow pace (e.g. 60 hours to finish Enchanted Arms w/o going to the late-game optional shrines).
Most reviews quoted that game at 30-40 hours.

So far, I'm 7 hours into TP and just got the Gale Boomerang (which is awesome btw).
How long did it take you guys to get to that point, do you think?

I think I was probably about 7 hours when I finished the first dungeon so you aren't that far behind my pace. 

Zelda is a 30-40 hour game if you don't do much sidequesting/exploring.  If you do then it can quite easily stretch to 50 hours or more.  However, this one does an outstanding job of stringing your from one dungeon to the next and location to location.  So if you don't feel like exploring the world you will constantly be fed new and interesting content.  There really isn't any filler here during the main quest line. 
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« Reply #98 on: January 04, 2007, 06:35:44 PM »

Quote from: Andrew Mallon on January 04, 2007, 06:29:52 PM

I wanted to comment on this because this seems to be a systemic problem with the Zelda series in general.

Okami had the issue in spades as well so it seems to be some sort of trap that the designers in this genre fall into. 

I agree that weapon upgrades and stuff would be much better.  It's been over three years since I played it, but I seem to remember OoT having some better rewards than just hearts for doing sidequests.  TP did have a few optional items like the
Spoiler for Hiden:
Upgrade allowing you to snipe with arrows
but needs a lot more of them. 

MM really nails the sidequests thing but the foundation of the the whole game is built around sidequests.
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« Reply #99 on: January 05, 2007, 05:01:36 PM »

i had a guide for MM,and loved that game......but with all the time travelling and 3 day start thing,i cant imagine me getting very far without a guide for that one.
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« Reply #100 on: January 05, 2007, 05:08:30 PM »

Quote from: metallicorphan on January 05, 2007, 05:01:36 PM

i had a guide for MM,and loved that game......but with all the time travelling and 3 day start thing,i cant imagine me getting very far without a guide for that one.

MM can definitely take some time to figure out, mainly because I don't think people are used to seeing a full world simulation on the order of the Gothics or Ultimas in a console game, much less a Zelda game.  So figuring out how to go about the sidequests can be difficult.

And the whole Groundhog Day stuff can be difficult to wipe your mind around too. 

But, wow, is that game ever brilliant.  Really, really underrated.  Criminally ignored when it came out at the end of N64's lifespan (the PS2 had just been released IIRC).  And the radically different gameplay concepts could really throw someone for a loop if they were looking for OoT redux. 

Easily the best use of time travel in a game (yes, better than Chrono Trigger). 
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« Reply #101 on: January 05, 2007, 08:11:58 PM »

And completely ruined for many by its retarded save system.

I wish you could "suspend" VC N64 games like you can NES games on the Wii. Then I would love to buy MM again, but alas... I guess I need to play it on an emulator someday so I can finish it without going crazy fighting the save system.
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« Reply #102 on: January 05, 2007, 08:25:01 PM »

Quote from: JCC on January 05, 2007, 08:11:58 PM

And completely ruined for many by its retarded save system.

I wish you could "suspend" VC N64 games like you can NES games on the Wii. Then I would love to buy MM again, but alas... I guess I need to play it on an emulator someday so I can finish it without going crazy fighting the save system.


Well you can temp save at the owl statues which is pretty similar to suspend options via the VC.  Not quite as flexible but the owl statues are pretty frequently scattered and can be warped to at a moment's notice. 

Yeah, I'd prefer a more flexible save system but I tend to think the criticism is overblown.
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« Reply #103 on: January 06, 2007, 12:30:33 AM »

I haven't found the owls to be frequently scattered at all. And how can you warp to them at a moment's notice? Can you warp back to where you were from the owl upon a resumption?
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« Reply #104 on: January 06, 2007, 01:43:58 AM »

Quote from: JCC on January 06, 2007, 12:30:33 AM

I haven't found the owls to be frequently scattered at all. And how can you warp to them at a moment's notice? Can you warp back to where you were from the owl upon a resumption?

There's an owl in clocktown and an owl close to every dungeon (most important) along with a few others about.  You warp to an owl by playing the Song of Soaring which IIRC you learn just before the first dungeon.  You can't warp back to where you played the song but since the owls are centrally located close to dungeon entrances and their surrounding environs you never have to treck very far anyway.

It's certainly not a perfect system but I don't find it any more cumbersome than most console save systems.  It takes a bit of shift in thinking but that's kind of a good thing since wrapping your mind around the save system is useful for understanding the rest of the game's flow. 
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« Reply #105 on: January 06, 2007, 03:41:38 AM »

I finished the Forest Dungeon this morning at about the 9:15 mark.
I enjoyed the first dungeon. I did look at the strat guide a couple of times
to discover that I was on the right track but needed to do something slightly
differently. The boss fight was easy enough but suitably cinematic for an opening
dungeon, IMO.

So far, so good. I'm looking forward to more.
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« Reply #106 on: January 06, 2007, 10:52:22 AM »

i remember when MM came out.and it was very expensive, 60...which 360 games are 40-50,that could be one of the reasons why it was ignored.....i bought it much later,and didnt get into it at all...it wasnt until the gamecube 4 game disc that i played it,printed a guide of the internet(zelda universe or something like that)..and then played and finished it...with all the masks as well....there have been rumours that all zelda games will be coming to virtual console(excluding WW and TP,obviously)..so if it does make an appearance i think that will be the time when i play it again....i know the first zelda is on there now,and the second one has just come out for virtual console in japan(dont know about you guys)..so hopefully it wont be long
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« Reply #107 on: January 06, 2007, 04:38:54 PM »

I think we'll see MM on VC eventually however the one on the Cube Collector's disk is known to be fairly buggy, which is game killing in a game like MM because of the save system.  Speculation was the issues were because Nintendo's N64 emulator at the time wasn't very compatible with the memory expansion pack games.  I don't think Nintendo will put MM on VC until those issues are ironed out since the bugs would be very unacceptable when they charge you $10 for the game.  Although they certainly may have updated/fixed their emulator in the last couple of years. 
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« Reply #108 on: January 06, 2007, 06:24:48 PM »

Quote from: JCC on January 06, 2007, 12:30:33 AM

I haven't found the owls to be frequently scattered at all. And how can you warp to them at a moment's notice? Can you warp back to where you were from the owl upon a resumption?

I want to follow up on this with a bit more detail.  I was playing from an old save in MM last night and thought this segment might illluminate why I don't think the save system is an issue.  It's got some minor gameplay spoilers on how to reach the second dungeons but I think it's pretty indicative of how the game works:

- So I have to go north out of Termina Field to get to the Goron stronghold in the mountains.  Shortly after I take the path up the mountains I get to mountain village where there is an owl statue.  Once the statue is activated I will be able to warp to this point at  a moment's notice from any segment in the game.  I will also be able temp save here and quit the game and when I come back I'll start back at the statue at the exact instant I quit the game.

- Exploring one of the paths in this area reveals the path the the Temple/dungeon but a sign tells me I need the Goron Jump to proceed.  So I expore some other paths and eventually find a segment that leads me across an invisible bridge where I obtain the Lens of Truth.  Using the lens I now find the ghost of a dead Goron.  He leads me to his grave which is on the top of a sheer cliff whose handholds are only revealed using the Lens of Truth.  Now if I were to perma-save and rewind at this point I would retain the lens and could go immediately to this cliff and his grave- no reason to ever do the previoius segment again.

- In his grave I obtain the Goron Mask, which transforms me into a Goron and allows me to do the Goron Jump.  So now I can proceed up that path from before.  And I retain the mask permanently of course, even if I rewind time and perma-save.  Using the jump and going up the path I find that there is a Goron spirit that will not allow me acces to the temple.  So I go back to a previous area and enter the Goron Caves (the Goron Mask now gives me access) and find that a Goron Infant is screaming his head off because he misses daddy.  Evidently daddy was headed to the dungeon but got frozen in a block of ice along the way. 

- So I head to another area and, using hotspring water I can obtain from the dead Goron's grave, I thaw out the kids father who teaches me one half of a lullaby song to calm his kid before he freezes again.  Now, that I've learned this song, I know it forever and never need to replay this segment.  Going back to the kid and playing the lullaby and the kid tells me the other half of the song which it turns out will put any Goron to sleep.  So now I know the whole song and, again, even if I perma-save I never need to replay that segment or any of the segments here. 

- Going back up near the temple and I now have the ability to put hte Goron ghost blocking my path to sleep and enter the tempel.  *And* there is another owl statue up here so I can always warp immediately to the temple entrance. 

During that entire segment, at any moment I could warped to an owl statue and temp saved the game and quit and started up again exactly where I was.  If I had perma saved I would still have retained the items and the songs necessary to proceed and the amount I could theoretically half to replay was never any longer than content in most other console checkpoint saves.  It's also worth noting that all of these areas I was travelling thorugh were relatively small and only took about 30 seconds to a minute to run thorugh so you never had far to travel. 
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« Reply #109 on: January 06, 2007, 07:58:34 PM »

Thanks for the posts Kevin. The farthest I got in MM was about halfway through the stuff you talked about there. I think it's just frustrating for me knowing that even with the slow time song, when you don't know where to go/what to do it's very frustrating to have to play "beat the clock". I also really wish the owls would give you a perma-save. That way I could feel free to explore without worrying about replaying large sections over again. One of the fun things about Zelda is to explore around and look through every nook and cranny, and I never feel close to comfortable enough to do that in MM. I really don't think I ever learned the owl song before, or, if I did, I didn't understand what it did. I do want to play it again some time, but I still say the save system was a big flaw. I hate savepoints to begin with, but at least they are savepoints. MM doesn't even give you that! And, I played several 3 day segments where I would explore around, find cool stuff, save thinking I would still have it only to find they were gone. Frustrating. (Sorry it's been a few years so I can't name anything specific.)

Can anyone elaborate on the bugginess of the cube version? Is there anything gamebreaking in it? If so, maybe I'll wait for a VC release.

Also, all those quests that have various "appointments" in your date book. My memory says that you can hit the first say 4 out of 5 events in that datebook, but if you miss the 5th, you have to start over again. I hated that! (Correct me if I am remembering it wrong.)

I love the content in MM, and I am huge fanboy for Zelda, but the 2-3 times I have tried to play it (even with liberal use of walkthroughs) I always get frustrated with the time limit, waiting for the right time in the right day for the sidequests, save system, etc. and I always quit. But, it's the game I most regret not finishing so I am sure I'll take another crack at it some time.
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« Reply #110 on: January 06, 2007, 08:24:07 PM »

Quote from: JCC on January 06, 2007, 07:58:34 PM

Can anyone elaborate on the bugginess of the cube version? Is there anything gamebreaking in it? If so, maybe I'll wait for a VC release.

Also, all those quests that have various "appointments" in your date book. My memory says that you can hit the first say 4 out of 5 events in that datebook, but if you miss the 5th, you have to start over again. I hated that! (Correct me if I am remembering it wrong.)


MM on the Cube is prone to occassional lockups though there seems to be little rhyme or reason behind them though I have head that it's a good idea to avoiid entering Clocktwon via the Western Gate.  Some people play through the whole thing with no problems, only a few problems, lots of problems, etc.  But, to due the save system, lockups can be really frustrating.  Because of that I stick with playing it on the N64. 

You remember correctly on the appointments and it can be annoying but generallly it's pretty quick and easy to redo since you have lots of ways to fast forward (though I wish the old lady who can send you forward just two hours was available continuously).  But I'd really like to have a song available where you can determine down to the hour how fast you want to go forward. 

I don't think the exporation elements really gets hurt.  The only things you lose are disposables like arrows, bombs, etc which I do think is kind of annoying but can easily be stocked up just by whacking the bushes right outside of the gate.  Money can be deposited in the bank so it's never lost and masks, items, hearts, and songs are all retained permanently.  I find general Zelda style exploration pretty painless since not only do you have copious amounts of time if you slow time, but general exporation isn't tied to the three day cycle so you can just rewind without penalty to Day One and then Warp back to the statue in the area you were exploring and continue on.  Plus, MM is probably the most dense Zelda game in terms of content per square foot so the areas aren't so large that they take much time to trek through. 

Dungeons are the same way- they can theoretically be beaten in a single slowed three day period however I believe that all of the doors you unlocked, items gained, etc stay the same even through a time rewind so rewinding time in a dungeon isn't a big deal, nor is warping out for a temp save if you need to stop playing.  I'm about to tackle the second dungeon though, so I'll check for sure. 

In general, I would say that while I'm cognizant of the time, I never sweat it so I don't feel the pressure. 

But, yeah, if you never figured out how the owl statues worked or the Song of Soaring, the game would be about 100% harder and more frustrating. 
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« Reply #111 on: January 06, 2007, 08:34:14 PM »

I should also mention that you might want to investigate playing it emulated on the PC since that will allow for permanent save states. 
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« Reply #112 on: January 06, 2007, 10:57:50 PM »

Majora's Mask sounds really cool.
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« Reply #113 on: January 06, 2007, 11:01:25 PM »

Quote from: Kevin Grey on January 06, 2007, 08:34:14 PM

I should also mention that you might want to investigate playing it emulated on the PC since that will allow for permanent save states. 

Yeah. Believe it or not the first time I ever played it was on the PC, and I STILL didn't stick with it even with a quicksave!  retard

Actually, I think I had some sort of PC/hard drive/video card meltdown or something that required a reinstall and I lost my progress. The farthest I ever got was with the cube. I need to get my Zelda Collectors Disc back from a co-worker who has borrowed it for like 2 years and give it another spin. (Just as soon as I finish TP for the 2nd time and play my other Wii games more thoroughly.)

I enjoy all the MM talk. It makes me want to tackle it (yet) again.

The (other) worst part of MM is the beginning, where it's pretty easy to get done in like the first half day or so and then you wait... and wait... and wait... and wait... for the end to come with no way of speeding it up. BOOO~!  icon_smile
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« Reply #114 on: January 07, 2007, 12:40:08 AM »

Quote from: JCC on January 06, 2007, 11:01:25 PM

The (other) worst part of MM is the beginning, where it's pretty easy to get done in like the first half day or so and then you wait... and wait... and wait... and wait... for the end to come with no way of speeding it up. BOOO~!  icon_smile

Completely agreed.  That first hour or so is painful. I never agreed with all of the "Twilight Princess has a slow and boring beginning" stuff- I loved it pretty much from the start but MM truly takes a bit to get going.  Though there is a way to speed through part of it- talking to the scarecrow on the path to the telescope allows you to skip from sunset to dawn to sunset, etc but there is no way to skip those last six hours from sunset on the third day to midnight when the door opens. 
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« Reply #115 on: January 07, 2007, 03:52:14 AM »

I think TP deserves a bit of criticism as it does take quite a while to get to the first dungeon. Plus... well I guess I'll...

Spoiler for Hiden:
protect this. That first cat quest in the village can be a real time waster. First off, it's easy to think you have to catch the cat since he will run away from you. I know I chased him for a while. Secondly, when you get around to fishing, you can catch a fish only to have the cat not want it (bug?) so if you don't keep fishing, you could get stuck for a while. Also the goat herding is pretty lame.

Still, I agree it's a little overly criticized as I was pretty enthralled with Zelda's beginning the first time through. The 2nd time through I found it tedious.
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« Reply #116 on: January 07, 2007, 04:47:18 AM »

Quote from: JCC on January 07, 2007, 03:52:14 AM

I think TP deserves a bit of criticism as it does take quite a while to get to the first dungeon. Plus... well I guess I'll...

Still, I agree it's a little overly criticized as I was pretty enthralled with Zelda's beginning the first time through. The 2nd time through I found it tedious.


I think it is the time it takes to get to the first dungeon that throws people off- If there is something major that TP brings to the series it's the emphasis on setpiece adventures on the overworld.  But when you're conditioned by previous games to think that the game really doesn't get started until your technically in a dungeon it can be a bit disconcerting. 

Between leaving the village for the first time and entering that dungeon you:

Spoiler for Hiden:
- Have to follow the kids and "rescue" them from the monkey
- Encounter the twilight realm for the first time and do essentially a mini dungeon in Twilight Realm Hyrule castle
- Get returned to the real world in wolf form and have to stalk through the village at night to get sword and shield
- Enter Twlight Faron Woods and clear the bugs from the area so that the normal world can be restored

And only after all of that do you get to the first dungeon.  But all of that is real quality exciting gameplay but the expectation the entire time is "am I at the first dungeon yet?"  It's a shift for the series but once I got used to it I loved all of those setpieces up through the third dungeon and was actually a bit disappointed that there were fewer of them in the mid and late game. 

I imagine the village intro probably is tedious the second time through but I appreciated it the first time because I really did need some adapting to the new control scheme. 
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« Reply #117 on: January 07, 2007, 08:03:32 PM »

Finally finished the game lasty night with about sixty hours on my last save file. Part of it is because I hit the wall with the game at about the fifty hour mark and had to force myself to finish it, but I found the last two dugeons and boss battles anticlimactic.

TP's ending suffers in comparison to Wind Waker. Sure, the Tri-Force hunt dragged the game down at the end, but the ending itself was special and a great payoff for slogging through it. TP's ending is pedestrian by comparison.

This isn't to say that the game isn't good; it's still one of the best games to come out last year. I was just expecting the game to capture the magic that Wind Waker and Minish Cap held and it came up just a bit short. 

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« Reply #118 on: January 07, 2007, 09:58:34 PM »

I need to get back to it, but it isn't compelling me.  The stuff I am playing on the PS2 is far far better IMO.

But I am going to give it a good 4-5 more hours, if it doesn't draw me in better, its done and I will go back to the PS2 stuff I am having a blast with.
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« Reply #119 on: January 08, 2007, 12:22:07 AM »

Quote from: Andrew Mallon on January 07, 2007, 08:03:32 PM

Finally finished the game lasty night with about sixty hours on my last save file. Part of it is because I hit the wall with the game at about the fifty hour mark and had to force myself to finish it, but I found the last two dugeons and boss battles anticlimactic.

I liked the last two dungeons.  It helped that I knew they weren't full scale dungeons to begin with but I enjoyed that they were more combat heavy since I really enjoy Zelda combat.  After the mamoth seventh dungeon I frankly didn't want to deal with anything on that scale again.  I also loved the visual aesthetic of the second to last dungeon.  I enjoyed this one's take on the traditional "refight" the previous boss battles which I usually hate but thought it was cleverly and painlessly integrated this time out. 

I thought the ending itself was fine if not particurly memorable- not great but not poor.  I have to admit though that I don't really share the love for Wind Waker's ending- I see it come up all the time in the "best ending" discussions but, quite frankly, I can barely remember what happened other than

Spoiler for Hiden:
Ganon taking a blade right through the face.

I think I felt about Wind Waker's ending the way you felt about TP's- I was just ready to be done with the game by that point.  I'm thinking about replaying WW, with an emphasis on throughline and less on exporation, and maybe I'll enjoy the ending more this time out. 
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