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Author Topic: Black & White 2 ....  (Read 9848 times)
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Calvin
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« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2005, 06:46:28 PM »

Quote from: "Harpua3"
hehe. I`m a sucker fo rthis stuff :wink: , plus...I...loved...black...and...white...I`m running now... Tongue


Woot! We have a guinea pig!
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Harpua3
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« Reply #41 on: September 26, 2005, 12:57:58 AM »

I`m starting to think you will have one. And I`m starting to think it will be me :wink: .
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« Reply #42 on: September 26, 2005, 06:44:37 PM »

Hellz yes I'm in!  Black and White 1 was great!  Already Preordered B&W2 (I never preorder)... I want my TIGER!  I wish Molyneux would make sequels to some of Bullfrogs old greats....  Magic Carpet, Dungeon Keeper, I digress.
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« Reply #43 on: September 26, 2005, 09:38:00 PM »

Heya Phil!

Yeah, there's a lot of hating going on in this thread. Ah well; Pete opened his mouth too wide with Fable and put both feet in up to the knees.
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« Reply #44 on: September 28, 2005, 06:50:12 PM »

The magazine reviews so far...

GamesMaster: 91%
Gamestar: 82%
Some other german magazine: 80%
EDGE: 7/10
PCFormat: 67%
PCGamer UK: 76%
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Harpua3
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« Reply #45 on: September 28, 2005, 08:47:41 PM »

Quote from: "siege"
The magazine reviews so far...

GamesMaster: 91%
Gamestar: 82%
Some other german magazine: 80%
EDGE: 7/10
PCFormat: 67%
PCGamer UK: 76%


 Lol, those seem to be ALL over the place. A 91% and a 67%... :? , I`ll wait and see I guess :wink: .
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« Reply #46 on: September 28, 2005, 09:07:20 PM »

Quote from: "siege"
The magazine reviews so far...

GamesMaster: 91%
Gamestar: 82%
Some other german magazine: 80%
EDGE: 7/10
PCFormat: 67%
PCGamer UK: 76%


Wow, that is all over the map-suprised PCGamer UK gave it such a low score-dont they usually review games early and give them like 9.5s?
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Harpua3
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« Reply #47 on: September 28, 2005, 09:16:12 PM »

Quote from: "Calvin"
Quote from: "siege"
The magazine reviews so far...

GamesMaster: 91%
Gamestar: 82%
Some other german magazine: 80%
EDGE: 7/10
PCFormat: 67%
PCGamer UK: 76%


Wow, that is all over the map-suprised PCGamer UK gave it such a low score-dont they usually review games early and give them like 9.5s?


 Not to sound like ass(I don`t sound like one, but rest assured, I am one :wink: )but...I really only look at gamespy, gamespot, and IGN. I really don`t like any of them, but used together, I think they get the job done. I`ve never used ANY of the sources above. That`s not to say the aren`t good sources, just I`ve never used them before.
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Harpua3
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« Reply #48 on: September 28, 2005, 09:16:56 PM »

BTW, at a glance I find gamerankings really helpful too!
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Clay
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« Reply #49 on: September 29, 2005, 02:31:43 PM »

I thought that the IGN review was pretty positive.  
http://pc.ign.com/articles/654/654547p1.html

I loved the original, so if my computer will run this one, I'll probably pick it up.
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Harpua3
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« Reply #50 on: September 30, 2005, 04:22:54 AM »

Wow, great link thanks. I go away fromt he PC for a day or two and ... :wink:
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Harpua3
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« Reply #51 on: October 02, 2005, 05:32:01 AM »

It`s coming in a few days...
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Ascendent
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« Reply #52 on: October 04, 2005, 04:54:43 AM »

Oh boy my copy shipped, love that free overnight shipping goodness.

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« Reply #53 on: October 04, 2005, 04:35:24 PM »

Wonder if any of the Ebgames or Gamestops have it right now.
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Autistic Angel
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« Reply #54 on: October 04, 2005, 07:02:59 PM »

Eurogamer has posted its review of Black & White 2.  Apparently the game is fatally broken in every conceivable way, from its terrible writing to its braindead AI to its miserable gameplay, and is completely unplayable.  Final score?  6-out-of-10, because it's a good *idea* for a game, so long as Lionhead Studios isn't the one to make it. (?!?)

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #55 on: October 04, 2005, 07:15:32 PM »

Quote from: "Autistic Angel"
Eurogamer has posted its review of Black & White 2.  Apparently the game is fatally broken in every conceivable way, from its terrible writing to its braindead AI to its miserable gameplay, and is completely unplayable.  Final score?  6-out-of-10, because it's a good *idea* for a game, so long as Lionhead Studios isn't the one to make it. (?!?)

After reading this review, I'm definitely out on this one. B&W1 was fun until the later stages, but it had some basic flaws that should've been caught and fixed.

The sequel looks to be little better.
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Sepiche
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« Reply #56 on: October 04, 2005, 07:52:14 PM »

Quote from: "Autistic Angel"
Eurogamer has posted its review of Black & White 2.  Apparently the game is fatally broken in every conceivable way, from its terrible writing to its braindead AI to its miserable gameplay, and is completely unplayable.  Final score?  6-out-of-10, because it's a good *idea* for a game, so long as Lionhead Studios isn't the one to make it. (?!?)

-Autistic Angel

I don't know if I'd put much stock on that review... the reviewer seems to have a beef with the game from the beginning.  I'll wait for cooler heads to pony up their thoughts.

s
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« Reply #57 on: October 04, 2005, 07:59:07 PM »

lol.

Just as predicted, Black and White 2 turns out to be an atrocity against the senses.  And yet there are still poor nubbins out there who refuse to heed the big flashing neon sign that reads IT'S A TRAP!

No wonder EA and Lionhead stay in business.  "Wait for cooler heads" my ass.  The game sucks worse than the first one, (I didn't think it was possible either!), and you're a moron if you buy it.

This game isn't even worth pirating.
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Ascendent
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« Reply #58 on: October 04, 2005, 08:18:53 PM »

I refuse to accept that I'm a moron because I enjoy the game. Go figure right? I mean I enjoy interacting with the villagers, my creature, and the world. I enjoy the concept, and I like how it's implemented. Do I think it's perfect, no but am I enjoying it none the less, absolutely.

I just finished playing for about 3 hours or so, I think it's a vast improvement over the first one. Takes a while to figure out how things work (still don't know how to select a new building to build) but the improved creature interaction is great. You can see everything they've done so far and you can punish or reward him for it. Very nice! I love the fact you can head him off before he gets into more trouble "I want to drop a load on the temple" yeah no more of that.

 But if you don't like the whole concept then stay away, the best advice I can give you, because while a few things have changed it's still very wide open game, and some people enjoy more linear type games.


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Sepiche
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« Reply #59 on: October 04, 2005, 08:28:03 PM »

Quote from: "-Lord Ebonstone-"
lol.

Just as predicted, Black and White 2 turns out to be an atrocity against the senses.  And yet there are still poor nubbins out there who refuse to heed the big flashing neon sign that reads IT'S A TRAP!

No wonder EA and Lionhead stay in business.  "Wait for cooler heads" my ass.  The game sucks worse than the first one, (I didn't think it was possible either!), and you're a moron if you buy it.

This game isn't even worth pirating.

You know, that was dangerously close to a personal attack LE.  Maybe you should take a deep breath and stop reading posts about games that annoy you, eh?

s
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« Reply #60 on: October 04, 2005, 08:38:32 PM »

That one article mentioned that you no longer put your creature on a leash to train him, you just buy his abilities. Is that true?

Because that was the most inspired part of the first game for me.  The improvement they needed was to make the creatures more trainable, not to remove that element entirely.
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« Reply #61 on: October 04, 2005, 08:44:27 PM »

Hope is the first step on the path of disappointment.
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« Reply #62 on: October 04, 2005, 08:49:58 PM »

My post was intended to point out the absurdity of a review that absolutely slams every possible element of Black & White 2 and then awards it anything higher than a one-out-of-ten.  I mean, based solely on the text, the game sounds like it's *aggressively* unplayable.

I loved Black & White.  Anyone who doubts that should check out the Cheeto Trailer I posted on the first page of this thread.  If Black & White 2 cost three times the price of a normal game, I'd still be inclined to buy it, and a single venomous review from a website I'd never heard of before certainly isn't sufficient for me to rethink that position.

The only thing that makes me sad is that my Creature won't be in Black & White 2.  If anyone could help me add him into the game, I'd be a friend for life.  frown

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #63 on: October 04, 2005, 08:57:19 PM »

Quote from: "gameoverman"
That one article mentioned that you no longer put your creature on a leash to train him, you just buy his abilities. Is that true?

Because that was the most inspired part of the first game for me.  The improvement they needed was to make the creatures more trainable, not to remove that element entirely.


No, I haven't bought any abilities for him. I've been training him like you did in Part 1. Put the leash on him, tell him what you want him to do. Then you reward/punish him as needed. Haven't seen miracles yet though maybe thats what they were referring to. Oh and there are some abilities you can buy, like multi-hand grabbing instead of one tree/rock you can grab multiples. A couple more upgrades like that I saw.

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« Reply #64 on: October 04, 2005, 10:09:01 PM »

Quote from: "Autistic Angel"
If Black & White 2 cost three times the price of a normal game, I'd still be inclined to buy it, and a single venomous review from a website I'd never heard of before certainly isn't sufficient for me to rethink that position.
I weep for humanity.

'Venomous' tone or not, the EuroGamer review seems to stick pretty hard to, well, facts about the game.   Unless they're flat-out lying, (which I'm sure someone is going to start claiming soon enough), the game sounds just god-awful:

Quote
Tribute is earned through completing the string of tasks silently appointed at the start of each new island. With no ceremony or connection to the story arc, a vast array of what are best described as chores, are given. These vary from the obligatory: take over the island; the vaguely interesting: build a wonder, take over three towns without force; and then in huge numbers the worryingly tedious: deforest the land, build eight fields, collect 8000 ore, make 20 breeders... To understand quite how laborious and un-game-like these are, know that creating a breeder entails picking up a person, and dropping them near another person. Collecting ore involves dropping people near the ore mine. Over and over. And over. That these challenges are so lacking in imagination is an indication of quite how limited B&W2 is. It wouldn't have been possible for Lionhead to come up with more creative tasks, because B&W2 possesses nothing to support such creativity.

The other means of gaining credit is by completing the silver-scroll tasks. These are essentially mini-games scattered about islands, available to play at any time whether you've conquered their location or not. If you played the original, think the singing sailors and their request. And if you're curling up in pain at that memory, stay there. These micro-missions are so wantonly pedestrian as to be an insult. Lionhead clearly couldn't care less about these, dumping in the most obvious and cumbersome time-fillers possible.

One particularly dreadful example involves catching lambs fired into the air from the apparently pneumatic vagina of a very pregnant sheep. As they come toward you, you're supposed to catch them in your hand. It turned out, clicking pretty much anywhere on the screen, at pretty much any point during their trajectory was enough to count as a catch, and no matter how many were missed, it didn't seem to care. And then after an apparently arbitrary 22 caught lambs, it told me I'd won. It's hard to imagine a less satisfactory victory.

Another is a completely broken game where you're supposed to help a kung-fu student to smash rocks with his fist. Not explaining what you're supposed to do leaves you to fumble about, waggling the mouse until you stumble upon the technique, only to discover that it seemingly only works 50 per cent of the time. Since you have to complete it three times in a row, the broken engine's statistics are against you, and against your even bothering. And anyway, in every other part of the game my powers allow me crack rocks with a mere touch. Why is that suddenly impossible now? Which is to say nothing of the mystery behind the early waterfall-clearing mini-game. There are some rocks blocking the water's flow. But you can't, for some unexplained reason, pick up them up. So you have to clear the fall by, er, picking up some rocks and throwing them at it. Idiotic beyond belief.

Talking of broken, it's time to talk about the combat. Running with the Good/Evil theme, your behaviour defines your alignment, and hence the way you play. Needlessly kill your people, and you're a mean god. Look after them well, and don't drop rocks on their houses, and you're lovely. This also extends to how you go about taking over each island. The angel imp insists that there's no need to go to war, the demon encouraging such violent behaviour enthusiastically. Create an army, and you can march them off to a neutral or enemy town, fight the locals if necessary, and then surround the central hub and take it over. This process is supposed to speed up when there are more men in your army, and when the town's defences are weaker. No evidence of this was apparent. In fact, when one platoon of 75 was reduced to a single solitary soldier by the enemy's Creature, the process continued at the same pace. Enemy platoons appear to work like those battery-driven toy cars you used to get that drove until they hit a wall, turned, and drove off in another direction. Should they stumble upon your army, they might fight it, or they might run about in confused circles. Should there happen to be something so enormously complex as a wall between your army and theirs, then they'll stand there, staring, dreaming crazy AI dreams of what must be on the other side.


Did you folks buy Dungeon Lords too?
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« Reply #65 on: October 04, 2005, 11:02:59 PM »

Hmm sounds vaguely like the first game, but with less focus and prettier graphics. Sigh.I had high hopes.

Though some may parse over the Eurogamer review, the fact that IGN gave it a 8.8 sends up a red flag for me (I still remember their MOOIII review) frown

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« Reply #66 on: October 05, 2005, 01:43:51 PM »

Quote from: "I"
If Black & White 2 cost three times the price of a normal game, I'd still be inclined to buy it, and a single venomous review from a website I'd never heard of before certainly isn't sufficient for me to rethink that position.


Quote from: "Then -Lord Ebonstone-"
I weep for humanity.


I'm not sure why my intention to spend my money on a game I want to buy for myself would offend you so much, but unless you've actually spent some time with the finished version of Black & White 2 and have something constructive to say about the experience, you should probably find something better to do with your energy.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #67 on: October 05, 2005, 05:03:34 PM »

As someone said on OO, the waterfall things is part of the tutorial where they are trying to teach you to throw things, that is why you can't simply move them. It makes me wonder if the rest of the complaints are from the tutorial or the real game.

Edit: LE you are a little quick on assuming the game is bad. One review hated it, but rated it good, and the others seem to like it. But it is still early to be drawing such drastic conclusions.
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« Reply #68 on: October 05, 2005, 07:33:15 PM »

Quote from: "Lee"
Edit: LE you are a little quick on assuming the game is bad. One review hated it, but rated it good, and the others seem to like it. But it is still early to be drawing such drastic conclusions.

LE is the "Voice of Doom" here.  After a while, you get used to it as background noise or static.
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« Reply #69 on: October 05, 2005, 07:43:31 PM »

Quote from: "Lee"
One review hated it, but rated it good, and the others seem to like it. But it is still early to be drawing such drastic conclusions.

I'm really going to avoid reviews on this and rely on people I know who have played/are playing the game.  I still remember the reviews from the first game...
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Autistic Angel
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« Reply #70 on: October 05, 2005, 10:49:51 PM »

I played Black & White 2 today for about two hours, and I was having a great time.  I have no interest at all in forcing my Creature to fulfull "roles" at the moment, so I've left him in Free Will Mode and shown him how to collect resources, eat food from the fields, construct buildings, and use trees to work out.  I've also given him a teddy bear toy, and he seems to enjoy playing with it when he's not finding things to help the villagers with.

I'm still on the first post-tutorial world, and I haven't learned any miracles yet.  The game's controls definitely seem a bit touchier than the first Black & White, but unlike that game, you seem to be able to interact with *everything*: rocks, fences, barrels, potted plants -- with more things for your hand to interact with, it's only natural that you'd have to be more selective about what you grabbed.  Also, using the mouse-wheel to zoom in or out is much more sensitive than I would have liked, but there may be a way to tweak that which I just haven't found yet.

For Black & White fans: the mouse buttons for Action or Movement are reversed by default in the new game.  One of the first things I did was return them to the old style, and the game's tutorial images immediately updated to reflect the new controls.  Nice.

Unlike Black & White, it's also very, very tempting to be evil and warlike in this game.  Maybe that's just because I want to see how battles work and let my Creature go to town on some of the pagans beyond the city limits, but I've been resisting that temptation so far.  City building is a lot of fun in its own way: there seem to be a couple dozen different types of buildings, including granaries, taverns, shops, wells, and so forth, and those are just the things that are unlockable now.

At this point, the Eurogamer review seems out of line on a number of points.  The waterfall challenge, as someone already pointed out, is one of the first things in the game and is *clearly* intended as a tutorial on how to throw things.  Also, while the reviewer seemed mystified (and angry) about whether he should ever want to build a Rest Home for senior villagers, the player is informed in-game and in the manual about the value of placing a good variety of buildings in your city.  Finally, where the reviewer talks about buying new abilities for your Creature in lieu of training it, all of the purchaseable upgrades I've seen so far come in the form of new buildings or abilities for myself (the logic being that the more the villagers believe in you, the more versatile you become.)

I'm really looking forward to spending more time with the game this evening.  I'll post more impressions as I have them.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #71 on: October 06, 2005, 12:46:49 AM »

The gamespot review is up. They gave it an 8.2
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Harpua3
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« Reply #72 on: October 06, 2005, 07:21:46 AM »

This game flat out rock. I just played for a few hours and wow. I had to force myself to put it down. I`m very pleased with this so far, this game is seriously in a league of it`s own. Great game. The only this is...heh. I think the drivers im running don`t like the game, Im running the 77.77 I think on 6800 gt and my creature looks like he has ropes hanging off of him , it`s odd and no, it`s not the leash... :roll: . I figure it`s something fixable, so I`m off to look around. Great game though, really great so far.
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« Reply #73 on: October 06, 2005, 07:48:28 AM »

I looked around and...there is a patch coming out already, lots of fixes. I did not see this one though, has anyone here witnessed the issue I spoke of?

 Actually, this is it, have a look...http://allboards.lionhead.com/showthread.php?t=98257

 Correct me if I`m wrong, but doesn`t it say that the 78.01 or whatever the newest ones are have no changes from the 77.77  aside from the 6500 supports, or something or other?
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« Reply #74 on: October 06, 2005, 01:27:33 PM »

I have a GeForce 6800 Ultra, the driver version in Device Manager reads "77.72," and the game has been displaying fine for me so far.  Hopefully the patch will fix your problem, but I don't think I'm using the most up-to-date drivers, so you might want to try downgrading to an earlier version if the patch isn't released promptly.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #75 on: October 06, 2005, 03:59:46 PM »

Check out the official forum. I hear there are some complaints of display issues with Nvidia cards.
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« Reply #76 on: October 06, 2005, 07:43:28 PM »

Thx. If I need to I`ll try the 77.72, are they official? BTW, what other games do you play with them, and with what results? Thx again :wink: !
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« Reply #77 on: October 06, 2005, 08:41:08 PM »

Nvidia has released 81.84 beta drivers for B&W 2.

http://www.nzone.com/object/nzone_downloads_rel70betadriver.html
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« Reply #78 on: October 06, 2005, 09:55:26 PM »

Thanks for the heads up on that beta driver, but if I can get a official one that works, I`ll go that route first. So who here has nvidia hardware, 6800gt or other, and what drivers are you using? Thanks again.
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« Reply #79 on: October 07, 2005, 02:52:31 PM »

I played for a good 6 hours or so last night and I have to agree with AA and Harpua3... lots of fun.

Admitedly I have a big weakness for city building games, and thats where I think part of the attraction comes for me.  They've fleshed out the city building from B&W1 to be quite a lot of fun.  You have many different building types to add to your city now, and as you progress and get Tribute (your reward from completing quests) you can purchase more buildings to use, in addition to new powers and abilities.  They also have a nice selection of buildings for both good and evil leaders.  A good leader would want to build villas and manors for his people in addition to wells and lamps, etc.  For the gods of war among us they have prisons, torture squares, hovels, and other assorted not so nice things for your peasants.

Having a pet along as well opens up even more fun in the game.  One of my biggest peeves from the first game was being unable to tell what you were rewarding/punishing your pet for, and with the addition of thought bubbles that tell you what your pet is doing or considering doing, it's easy as pie to tailor his behavior to whatever situation comes up.  They've also added roles you can tell your pet to perform.  Basically a way of telling him to gather or fight or build without any input from you.  The method for teaching your pet spells has changed.  No longer does he get spells through watching you, but you purchase them with your tribute rewards.  While it was perhaps a little more flavorful to teach your pet skills like in B&W1, the system is a lot cleaner and less frustrating in B&W2 IMHO.  I've given my the water spell so far and he's been having a fun time running around the town helping to water the fields for me.  Another thing to mention is that you can upgrade your pets skills from the tribute menu now too.  You can improve his building, gathering, entertaining, and soldiering.  Each of those upgrades makes him better and more efficient at performing those jobs.

As AA mentioned the gameplay difference between Good and Evil basically comes down to "Are you a builder or a warrior?".  If you build up a nice beautiful city, this will increase it's impressiveness, and if you have more impressiveness than your neighboring gods, your enemies people on the island will flock to you and make your city even greater.  On the other hand if you choose the way of combat you can use your pet and your armies to take over the other settlements of the island you are on.  Whenever you perform an act that is good or evil (and most actions do change your alignment, even if only slightly) it shows on the screen an indication of the change.  Things like picking up trees, attacking towns, killing off your people are all evil acts to a greater or lesser degree, while taking in refugees, helping the people gather, etc are good actions.  Don't think that you can't have any crossover in your actions though.  Even though my pet and I are both solidly good we've still performed our share of evil acts.  My pet has fought off numerous norse infantry platoons (an evil act) but I've purchased him a nice teddy bear to cuddle with between battles, and that has the effect of raising his alignment.  Likewise I've done thing here and there that have hit my alignment, but as the majority of my actions are good my alignment has gotten pretty high pretty fast.

Combat in the game is so far simple to use and fun to watch.  You can build an armory in your town that allows you to raise infantry platoons.  The number of men available for drafting depends on your population, so even if you are evil it pays to have a good sized population (you just don't have to treat them as well :twisted:).  Raising a platoon is as easy as setting the muster point and selecting the size of teh platoon to raise.  Once started, men from around your settlement will head to your armory to equip and deploy.  Then you can use the number keys to select your platoon and move them about the map.  One fun thing to watch is your troops if you leave them stationary for a bit.  After a time you will see them build fires and some will go to the fires to relax while others will gather up and spar with each other.  I haven't got to the point of sieges, but there are rather impressive city walls in B&W2, and I noticed you can deploy platoons to the tops of the walls.  I'm sure that will come into play soon.

Your pet in battle is pretty fun to watch.  He controls pretty much the same as a platoon if you use the leash, or you can tell him to fight around a certain spot, or just set him to soldier mode and let him roam free.  In battle he runs around and smashes enemies like ants.  It's quite fun to watch.  I haven't seen any pet fights yet, but I'm sure it's coming.

Well that's pretty much it for now.  As far as final thoughts go, I think if you enjoyed the idea of the original Black and White, but not the execution.. I'd give this one a chance.  So far I've been very pleased with the game in it's role as a god simulator.  All the ideas that could have made B&W1 an instant classic are present in B&W2 IMHO.  However, if you are looking for a new RTS/town building game... well that's not really the point of B&W.  While those features are fun, they don't make the game by themselves, and can't compare to a game that only focuses on those points.

I got up to the end of the second main island last night, and I will most likely have to start over since the patch due out today seems to invalidate save games from all accounts.  Annoying, but not enough to keep me from planning on playing most of the weekend. smile

I think I may build an evil empire with a cow as my pet tonight... no one expects a simple cow to be a killer. slywink

s
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And when he had failed to find these boons in things whose laws are known and measurable, they told him he lacked imagination, and was immature because he preferred dream-illusions to the illusions of our physical creation
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