http://gamingtrend.com
October 25, 2014, 04:29:56 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: 1 ... 7 8 [9] 10 11   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: [PC/360/Ps3] Bioshock: Infinite - Impressions Incoming! Impressions pg 6  (Read 19023 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Harpua3
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 2727


View Profile
Re:
« Reply #320 on: April 07, 2013, 01:40:47 AM »

Quote from: Caine on April 06, 2013, 09:37:04 PM

Quote from: Harpua3 on April 06, 2013, 05:22:42 PM

Quote from: Autistic Angel on April 06, 2013, 03:58:47 PM

No, everyone, pay more attention to me!  What a bold, discerning maverick I am, forging against the tide of popular opinion to denigrate my betters!  Anyone can score a game against contemporary standards, but only the most cunning of auteurs can transform a game review into a sweeping commentary on industry marketing by holding the finished product up against the fantastical expectations dreamed up while gorging on pre-release spoilers for the last three years.  OVERHYPED ARGLE BARGLE!

Now get out of my way!  I'm off to participate in a panel discussion about the philosophical themes in Bioshock Infinite!  Obviously, every miserable failure of effective world-building and competent storytelling deserves a forty minute deconstruction of the inspirations drawn from Koyaanisqatsi.  I just hope there'll be a good opportunity to connect phrases like "reductive verisimilitude" and "vomit waffles" in conversation so I can underscore the intelligence of my critique without losing any street cred.  Someone stencil "Senior" onto the start of all my business cards!

Weapon upgrades?  Come again?  Durr, I though all the vending machines sold exactly the same thing so I just ignored them!  Even the ones with totally different color schemes and sounds.  Thank god my inability to comprehend basic gameplay elements has zero effect on my opinion or, apparently, my credibility!

Oh, what's this?  "Extremely High Voltage!"  Well, I don't need safety gloves, because I'm Homer Sim-

-Bzzzzzt




I'm confused. Sarcasm?
That or drunk.

Hey, I drink alot! Don't blame it on that!;)
Logged
Harpua3
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 2727


View Profile
« Reply #321 on: April 07, 2013, 01:42:19 AM »

Quote from: Greg Wak on April 06, 2013, 10:41:53 PM

Quote from: CeeKay on April 06, 2013, 09:41:07 PM

and done.  pretty fun game.  at some point, maybe next year, I'll replay the game to pick the choices I didn't take.


I wonder what direction the DLC will take.

I have said this in the past, like Witcher 2, and the ME games, and Fallout 3 NV and yet, I have never gone back. There is always something new and shiny waiting.

Same here. Gaming ADD...
Logged
msduncan
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 2993


Roll Tide!!!!


View Profile
« Reply #322 on: April 07, 2013, 03:06:36 AM »

Consider my mind completely blown.   Only read if you've beaten the game:

Spoiler for Hiden:
The scene where Songbird is warped to Rapture and dies in the water.    He lets out a soul piercing screech as he normally does.

Well....

Spoiler for Hiden:
Someone has discovered in the original Bioshock (released 2007) that in the death of Fitzgerald scene you can hear Songbird's death.    That means that in 2007, an easter egg was present in the game FOR a game that wouldn't be created for 6 years......

Here are the two scenes:


 eek eek eek
Logged
leo8877
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 12765



View Profile
« Reply #323 on: April 07, 2013, 05:26:49 AM »

If that's legit then it's pretty crazy alright!
Logged
Harpua3
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 2727


View Profile
« Reply #324 on: April 07, 2013, 06:41:21 AM »

Even though I'm exhausted I'm going to sit down and play this again for a few hrs tonight. So, ive read numerous accounts of this being shorter than I'm seeing. What's the average completion time? Still really digging it!
Logged
Harpua3
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 2727


View Profile
« Reply #325 on: April 07, 2013, 06:46:28 AM »

Also...as I'm on the throne reading through this thread again...SARCASMISM or not?!? Or am I just feeding banana feces to... Nm.
Logged
Turtle
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 9425



View Profile WWW
« Reply #326 on: April 07, 2013, 06:50:00 AM »

Actually guys, I think that's just a coincidence. They're using the same sound library, there's bound to be sounds that carry over.
Logged
CeeKay
Gaming Trend Staff
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 71766


La-bibbida-bibba-dum! La-bibbida-bibba-do!


View Profile
« Reply #327 on: April 07, 2013, 06:53:51 AM »

Quote from: Harpua3 on April 07, 2013, 06:41:21 AM

Even though I'm exhausted I'm going to sit down and play this again for a few hrs tonight. So, ive read numerous accounts of this being shorter than I'm seeing. What's the average completion time? Still really digging it!

according to Steam I played for 16 hours.
Logged

Because I can,
also because I don't care what you want.
XBL: OriginalCeeKay
Wii U: CeeKay
TiLT
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 6620


Preaching to the choir


View Profile WWW
« Reply #328 on: April 07, 2013, 08:43:26 AM »

14 hours here.
Logged
msduncan
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 2993


Roll Tide!!!!


View Profile
« Reply #329 on: April 07, 2013, 01:36:58 PM »

Quote from: Turtle on April 07, 2013, 06:50:00 AM

Actually guys, I think that's just a coincidence. They're using the same sound library, there's bound to be sounds that carry over.

Spoiler for Hiden:
Could be Turtle, but on the other hand it appears that the screeches are only heard ONCE during all of Bioshock 2007.   The screech is such a prominent announcement of Songbird's presence in Infinite.   At the very least its totally mind altering freaky.

If that sound was heard periodically throughout the game like the other ambient sounds I would have automatically dismissed it.

Logged
Turtle
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 9425



View Profile WWW
« Reply #330 on: April 07, 2013, 02:04:50 PM »

Quote from: msduncan on April 07, 2013, 01:36:58 PM

Quote from: Turtle on April 07, 2013, 06:50:00 AM

Actually guys, I think that's just a coincidence. They're using the same sound library, there's bound to be sounds that carry over.

Spoiler for Hiden:
Could be Turtle, but on the other hand it appears that the screeches are only heard ONCE during all of Bioshock 2007.   The screech is such a prominent announcement of Songbird's presence in Infinite.   At the very least its totally mind altering freaky.

If that sound was heard periodically throughout the game like the other ambient sounds I would have automatically dismissed it.

Spoiler for Hiden:
Listen to the scene you're in, they added those screeches to accent just how messed up things were and probably come from a sound library

Also Songbird is more known for his creepy laughter as well.

Lastly, the youtube command on the Bioshock 1 video summs it up: "it can't be Song Bird because he dies before the plane hits the underwater bridge at the start of Bioshock. When Song Bird dies in infinity, the bridge is still intact."
Logged
msduncan
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 2993


Roll Tide!!!!


View Profile
« Reply #331 on: April 07, 2013, 02:51:49 PM »

Quote from: Turtle on April 07, 2013, 02:04:50 PM

Quote from: msduncan on April 07, 2013, 01:36:58 PM

Quote from: Turtle on April 07, 2013, 06:50:00 AM

Actually guys, I think that's just a coincidence. They're using the same sound library, there's bound to be sounds that carry over.

Spoiler for Hiden:
Could be Turtle, but on the other hand it appears that the screeches are only heard ONCE during all of Bioshock 2007.   The screech is such a prominent announcement of Songbird's presence in Infinite.   At the very least its totally mind altering freaky.

If that sound was heard periodically throughout the game like the other ambient sounds I would have automatically dismissed it.

Spoiler for Hiden:
Listen to the scene you're in, they added those screeches to accent just how messed up things were and probably come from a sound library

Also Songbird is more known for his creepy laughter as well.

Lastly, the youtube command on the Bioshock 1 video summs it up: "it can't be Song Bird because he dies before the plane hits the underwater bridge at the start of Bioshock. When Song Bird dies in infinity, the bridge is still intact."

Spoiler for Hiden:
But as others have pointed out, it could be that he put those sounds in there in a grand vision of another future game.... and that the only thing that is inconsistent is the timing of when you hear the screech.     Perhaps it's one of those inconsistencies that plague even the best movies or television crews when they put something together.

I just know 2 things:

1.  That screech matches Songbird.
2.  That screech is only ever heard ONCE in the previous Bioshock games during that scene.   It might be in the sound library, but it was only used once across two games.
Logged
msduncan
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 2993


Roll Tide!!!!


View Profile
« Reply #332 on: April 07, 2013, 06:26:02 PM »


Something else about that scene Turtle:

Spoiler for Hiden:
In Bioshock, Fitzpatrick is killed with the silhouettes of girls with scissors behind him
In Infinite, Fitzroy is killed by Elizabeth stabbing her with scissors from behind.
Logged
Turtle
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 9425



View Profile WWW
« Reply #333 on: April 07, 2013, 06:37:03 PM »

Anomaly hunting much? slywink
Logged
msduncan
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 2993


Roll Tide!!!!


View Profile
« Reply #334 on: April 07, 2013, 06:49:58 PM »

Quote from: Turtle on April 07, 2013, 06:37:03 PM

Anomaly hunting much? slywink

Oh wow... this too:

Spoiler for Hiden:
Someone posted a screenshot showing that the tunnel damage from the tail of the airplane is indeed IN this scene:



So Jack would have already arrived and been through here by the time this event takes place.    Meaning that the screech you hear later on would have been timed appropriately.

Logged
Turtle
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 9425



View Profile WWW
« Reply #335 on: April 07, 2013, 07:00:29 PM »

Spoiler for Hiden:
Timed appropriately across an entire 10 hour game.

A game which I doubt anyone has really replayed through the entire thing with volume in high to find all instances of the sound, or heck, go and extract the sound file out of the game. A sound which they probably used for a lot underwater squeeking, heck, they probably realized during the development of Infinite that for the times when songbird was underwater they could reuse some Bioshock 1 audio.

A plethora of circumstantial, after the fact evidence doesn't make good evidence.

The scissors thing is just silly, of course they took things from the original game. Of course they're going to make cheeky hints by plucking out elements of past games, or they could just be inspired by the same stuff. Hey look, there's a lighthouse, and another city. They have an entire game to go back and pluck cheeky little hints back to the original bioshock, why? Because it already fits with the theme of Infinite.

But this sound bit people are obsessed over? Terrible positioning for a cameo don't you think? Played behind the audio for a creepy character moment? I'd expect it to play in a quieter area between zones. Game development doesn't really work like that, sorry. The stuff people are picking up on are random things after the fact. The reality is, unless they patched it in much later, they don't plan stuff like this that far in advance. Ken Levine himself said he doesn't plan the story that far in advance, as he needs to make sure it works with the gameplay and editing decisions.

This is the same stuff that's like Mass Effect Indoctrination Theory. People reading way too much more into things.

Now, I actually wouldn't mind if they cheekily stealth patched Bioshock 1 and 2 to include a real cameo sound.
Logged
msduncan
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 2993


Roll Tide!!!!


View Profile
« Reply #336 on: April 07, 2013, 07:53:45 PM »


Spoiler for Hiden:

Evidence:

1.  Fitzgerald is the piano player in the scene with the screech
2.  Shadow figures of women killing someone with scissors on wall during this scene
3.  Fitzroy is killed by Liz with scissors.   Fitzroy and Fitzgerald is awfully close.
4.  Screech sounds identical to Songbird
5.  Screech isn't used but once in the entire Bioshock best that anyone can tell.    This doesn't seem consistent with ambient sound usage where you should hear that pop up several times over the course of the game
6.  People have found 2010 youtube videos of that scene that show the screech is there.    Therefore it was not patched in recently.
Logged
Turtle
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 9425



View Profile WWW
« Reply #337 on: April 07, 2013, 08:34:11 PM »

Spoiler for Hiden:
Again, a lot of bad evidence doesn't make it good evidence.

Your list reads like a 9/11 or moon landing denier's list.

All your points are all the result of them deliberately going back through Bioshock 1 and plucking out elements that they wanted to use in Bioshock Infinite. You are confusing hindsight for foresight. Looking back at a prior game and picking out details, or assets, to reuse is the first thing you do when tasked with making a sequel.

Of course the Fitzes have a similar name. That's because they wanted more parallels and chose the names deliberately for Infinite, they didn't send telepathic messages into the future to tell themselves to use the names again.

Of course there's images of women using scissors to kill someone, it's a striking image, and one they reused for Infinite. Again, they reuse this imagery because all of Infinite is supposed to be about parallel worlds.

And stop making such a big deal out of single screech. It's just one sound bit, likely mixed directly into the guy's monologue in the background of that scene to make it even creepier to hear crazy screeching that was vaguely underwater sounding. Doesn't matter that it is played once.

Then when it came to 2012-2013 while developing Infinite, the sound designer realizes he needs a sound and goes back into the Bioshock 1 sound library and finds something perfect for his uses that wasn't overplayed in Bioshock 1.

People like to hunt through stuff for anomalies and point them out, making a bigger deal of things, like they are in on some kind of secret.

I think it's wonderful that they went back to Bioshock 1 and grabbed so much side stuff to pack into Infinite. But just like the Lighthouse, the city, and the man, it's really all a part of Infinite, and not some conspiracy. It's a cool element, but sometimes a scary sound is just a scary sound in the background.
Logged
Zarkon
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 4848


View Profile WWW
« Reply #338 on: April 07, 2013, 09:18:05 PM »

Quote from: The Grue on April 03, 2013, 07:41:19 PM

Am I the only person who was pretty amazed with the game right up until the point where I put skyhook through a guy's head?  I know this is a shooter and all, but it seems these guys went with violence for violence's sake.  It honestly soured my impressions of the game.  This is the type of game that could have really done something meaningful if they were going to put that kind of violence in (they minorly address it, from what I hear), but for such a smart game, they really sank into the "murder simulator" mode on this one.

That was about my reaction yes.  We're in the minority, but we're not alone.  There've been stories on Polygon, Kotaku and a few other places also.  Hell, CliffyB is even saying it's overdone, and that's .... saying something.
Logged
Turtle
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 9425



View Profile WWW
« Reply #339 on: April 07, 2013, 09:22:57 PM »

Irrational needs to stop making FPS games, sadly, they are now probably stuck doing them from 2K.
Logged
msduncan
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 2993


Roll Tide!!!!


View Profile
« Reply #340 on: April 07, 2013, 09:44:12 PM »

Quote from: Zarkon on April 07, 2013, 09:18:05 PM

Quote from: The Grue on April 03, 2013, 07:41:19 PM

Am I the only person who was pretty amazed with the game right up until the point where I put skyhook through a guy's head?  I know this is a shooter and all, but it seems these guys went with violence for violence's sake.  It honestly soured my impressions of the game.  This is the type of game that could have really done something meaningful if they were going to put that kind of violence in (they minorly address it, from what I hear), but for such a smart game, they really sank into the "murder simulator" mode on this one.

That was about my reaction yes.  We're in the minority, but we're not alone.  There've been stories on Polygon, Kotaku and a few other places also.  Hell, CliffyB is even saying it's overdone, and that's .... saying something.

He was a Pinkerton.   They aren't known for subtlety.
Logged
msduncan
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 2993


Roll Tide!!!!


View Profile
« Reply #341 on: April 07, 2013, 09:47:27 PM »

Quote from: Turtle on April 07, 2013, 08:34:11 PM

Spoiler for Hiden:
Again, a lot of bad evidence doesn't make it good evidence.

Your list reads like a 9/11 or moon landing denier's list.

All your points are all the result of them deliberately going back through Bioshock 1 and plucking out elements that they wanted to use in Bioshock Infinite. You are confusing hindsight for foresight. Looking back at a prior game and picking out details, or assets, to reuse is the first thing you do when tasked with making a sequel.

Of course the Fitzes have a similar name. That's because they wanted more parallels and chose the names deliberately for Infinite, they didn't send telepathic messages into the future to tell themselves to use the names again.

Of course there's images of women using scissors to kill someone, it's a striking image, and one they reused for Infinite. Again, they reuse this imagery because all of Infinite is supposed to be about parallel worlds.

And stop making such a big deal out of single screech. It's just one sound bit, likely mixed directly into the guy's monologue in the background of that scene to make it even creepier to hear crazy screeching that was vaguely underwater sounding. Doesn't matter that it is played once.

Then when it came to 2012-2013 while developing Infinite, the sound designer realizes he needs a sound and goes back into the Bioshock 1 sound library and finds something perfect for his uses that wasn't overplayed in Bioshock 1.

People like to hunt through stuff for anomalies and point them out, making a bigger deal of things, like they are in on some kind of secret.

I think it's wonderful that they went back to Bioshock 1 and grabbed so much side stuff to pack into Infinite. But just like the Lighthouse, the city, and the man, it's really all a part of Infinite, and not some conspiracy. It's a cool element, but sometimes a scary sound is just a scary sound in the background.

Spoiler for Hiden:
Whatever man.   It's an amazing set of coincidences.    It's also amazing that they had a birdlike screech in a city under the ocean in ONE place in the original Bioshock.   It's also amazing that whoever came up with the sound library for the game said 'hey I like this bird screech, let's put it in there'.   It's also very convenient that the big baddie of Infinite happens to be a bird guy with that screech.  
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 09:49:22 PM by msduncan » Logged
Roman
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 1283


XboxLive: RomyBolognaPony


View Profile
« Reply #342 on: April 07, 2013, 10:30:30 PM »

I'm finding myself feeling like I have to play this game icon_neutral its simply not clicking with me.
Elizabeth just cut her hair. how much longer do I have?
Logged

Xbox Live Gamertag: RomyBolognaPony
Travis
Gaming Trend Reader

Offline Offline

Posts: 181


View Profile
« Reply #343 on: April 08, 2013, 04:13:06 AM »

Quote from: Roman on April 07, 2013, 10:30:30 PM

I'm finding myself feeling like I have to play this game icon_neutral its simply not clicking with me.
Elizabeth just cut her hair. how much longer do I have?
A ways yet.  I felt the same during parts of the game but just beat it.  Can't say it blew my mind, but go ahead and beat it so you can talk about it I suppose.  It does pick up and get more suspenseful towards the end.
Logged
Turtle
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 9425



View Profile WWW
« Reply #344 on: April 08, 2013, 07:08:41 AM »

Quote from: msduncan on April 07, 2013, 09:47:27 PM

Quote from: Turtle on April 07, 2013, 08:34:11 PM

Spoiler for Hiden:
Again, a lot of bad evidence doesn't make it good evidence.

Your list reads like a 9/11 or moon landing denier's list.

All your points are all the result of them deliberately going back through Bioshock 1 and plucking out elements that they wanted to use in Bioshock Infinite. You are confusing hindsight for foresight. Looking back at a prior game and picking out details, or assets, to reuse is the first thing you do when tasked with making a sequel.

Of course the Fitzes have a similar name. That's because they wanted more parallels and chose the names deliberately for Infinite, they didn't send telepathic messages into the future to tell themselves to use the names again.

Of course there's images of women using scissors to kill someone, it's a striking image, and one they reused for Infinite. Again, they reuse this imagery because all of Infinite is supposed to be about parallel worlds.

And stop making such a big deal out of single screech. It's just one sound bit, likely mixed directly into the guy's monologue in the background of that scene to make it even creepier to hear crazy screeching that was vaguely underwater sounding. Doesn't matter that it is played once.

Then when it came to 2012-2013 while developing Infinite, the sound designer realizes he needs a sound and goes back into the Bioshock 1 sound library and finds something perfect for his uses that wasn't overplayed in Bioshock 1.

People like to hunt through stuff for anomalies and point them out, making a bigger deal of things, like they are in on some kind of secret.

I think it's wonderful that they went back to Bioshock 1 and grabbed so much side stuff to pack into Infinite. But just like the Lighthouse, the city, and the man, it's really all a part of Infinite, and not some conspiracy. It's a cool element, but sometimes a scary sound is just a scary sound in the background.

Spoiler for Hiden:
Whatever man.   It's an amazing set of coincidences.    It's also amazing that they had a birdlike screech in a city under the ocean in ONE place in the original Bioshock.   It's also amazing that whoever came up with the sound library for the game said 'hey I like this bird screech, let's put it in there'.   It's also very convenient that the big baddie of Infinite happens to be a bird guy with that screech. 

Spoiler for Hiden:
There is only one minor anomaly/coincidence that is easily explained when you know how games are made, and exactly how far in advance they are really planned. That is the screech that everyone is harping on is the only slight oddity.

Everything else you list as evidence is not a coincidence, nor is it good evidence, but rather, it is simply the developers of Infinite deliberately looking back to Bioshock 1 and pulling stuff from that game. It is just deliberate looking back and taking ideas and visual cues from the prior game. It's something that's very cool, and they did a great job with.

But it's like saying the entire Art Deco movement was put in place because that they knew that some day Bioshock 1 would use that art style to represent an underwater city, rather than Bioshock simply looking back at all the design choices of the Art Deco movement and using it for their game.
Logged
Zarkon
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 4848


View Profile WWW
« Reply #345 on: April 08, 2013, 10:48:09 AM »

Quote from: msduncan on April 07, 2013, 09:44:12 PM

Quote from: Zarkon on April 07, 2013, 09:18:05 PM

Quote from: The Grue on April 03, 2013, 07:41:19 PM

Am I the only person who was pretty amazed with the game right up until the point where I put skyhook through a guy's head?  I know this is a shooter and all, but it seems these guys went with violence for violence's sake.  It honestly soured my impressions of the game.  This is the type of game that could have really done something meaningful if they were going to put that kind of violence in (they minorly address it, from what I hear), but for such a smart game, they really sank into the "murder simulator" mode on this one.

That was about my reaction yes.  We're in the minority, but we're not alone.  There've been stories on Polygon, Kotaku and a few other places also.  Hell, CliffyB is even saying it's overdone, and that's .... saying something.

He was a Pinkerton.   They aren't known for subtlety.

I'm not saying he needs to be subtle.  I'm playing Bioshock 1 right now, and it's just as violent.

However.

Bioshock 1 didn't have heads exploding.  It doesn't have nearly the gore that I experienced in just under 2 hours in Infinite.  I'm not saying there shouldn't be blood.  I'm saying that in Infinite it almost appears that the blood and gore are there just for the sake...of having blood and gore.  It's like they learned lessons on how to do combat from Bulletstorm or something.  *shrug*

I'm not slamming the game, by any means (haven't played enough to do that), but isn't it time that 'mature' meant something more than titillation and gore? 

I felt more dread from seeing everyone with the baseballs than I did shooting and dodging.  THAT is the mature experience I want.  Tell me an awesome story, don't drown me in blood to go "Oooh, matuuuuure".
Logged
skystride
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 2216



View Profile
« Reply #346 on: April 08, 2013, 02:37:08 PM »

Maybe I am desensitized but I didn't find BI gory at all.  After finishing it I went back to Tomb Raider.  That is so much worse in terms of gore (not that I mind).  BI is just too cartoonish (a bit like Dishonored) for the violence to resonate much.  On the other hand falling onto dead bodies and watching head roll around in TR is a bit creepy.
Logged
spigot
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 828


All of the bacon and eggs you have.


View Profile
« Reply #347 on: April 08, 2013, 03:23:20 PM »

Part of me wants to think that Ken Levine nefariously plotted all of this from the very first game in an attempt to implant the strange, wonderful and quirky metaphysical weirdness of the Bioshock universe and fiction into our heads and mind f**k us all in our waking moments if nothing for his own personal amusement. Another part of me thinks people are just grasping at straws and trying desperately to find connections to everything else, no matter how tenuous they may or may not be, because our minds just need to make sense of things.

The reality that we're in now is obviously one of infinite parallel universes spawned from the decision in which Ken Levine chose the path of game designer. Constants and variables ... constants and variables ...
« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 11:10:42 PM by spigot » Logged

XBL GamerTag: RoboSim
Lordnine
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 1531


Lord of the Rutabagas


View Profile WWW
« Reply #348 on: April 08, 2013, 11:13:58 PM »

I donít think the gore has to do with trying to be mature so much as giving the player a clear cut representation of combat.  Gore as used in Infinite makes the combat feel more responsive.  If a personís head explodes you know instantly that they are dead and you can switch targets.  It may only be a couple seconds different but itís enough to change the flow and feel of combat.  This is actually something that bothers me in FPS that donít use some form of damage modeling.
Logged
Gratch
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 12522


GO UTES!!


View Profile
« Reply #349 on: April 09, 2013, 03:27:53 AM »

Just finished.  Trying to wrap my brain around that ending...it isn't working too well.  Looking forward to reading the spoilers in this thread.

As a shooter, I thought it was pretty 'meh'.  However, the atmosphere and narrative (baffling as it was at times) were incredibly well done.  Liked the first Bioshock better, but this one was still pretty damn good.
Logged

ďMy next great decision is just lying in wait.
The action might turn out to be the world's most grievous mistake."
- Bad Religion, Past is Dead
Harpua3
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 2727


View Profile
« Reply #350 on: April 09, 2013, 05:35:46 AM »

Quote from: Lordnine on April 08, 2013, 11:13:58 PM

I donít think the gore has to do with trying to be mature so much as giving the player a clear cut representation of combat.  Gore as used in Infinite makes the combat feel more responsive.  If a personís head explodes you know instantly that they are dead and you can switch targets.  It may only be a couple seconds different but itís enough to change the flow and feel of combat.  This is actually something that bothers me in FPS that donít use some form of damage modeling.

I agree with that 100%.
Logged
Bullwinkle
Gaming Trend Staff
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 15622


Watch me pull a rabbit outta my hat.


View Profile
« Reply #351 on: April 09, 2013, 06:36:29 PM »

Just finished this.  Hooray! Loved it.

Reading through some old comments, I wanted to address this:

Spoiler for Hiden:

Quote from: Turtle on April 02, 2013, 08:34:04 PM

Quote from: Covenant on April 02, 2013, 06:21:38 PM

Quote from: Soulchilde on April 02, 2013, 06:16:20 PM

So I have more questionsÖ


Spoiler for Hiden:
How come Comstock is so old if heís a version of Booker in 1912?  Shouldnít he have been 38 too?  Was he aged due to the portals?


Spoiler for Hiden:
Best theory I read is that using the rifts has prematurely aged him as well as made him sterile.

Spoiler for Hiden:
However, that does not explain all of the aging. The reality is, the game definitely has an element of time travel through tears, considering the songs and locations found through them are definitely in the future, not to mention that an older version of Elizabeth summons you from the future to send you back to save a version of her past self.

It's best not to overthink things and just remember, tears are magic that can take you anywhere in time and space.

It's funny how people coming up with some explanations forget the whole fact that there was time travel.

Spoiler for Hiden:
Actually, it's not just an external theory.  One of the Vox Tapes has Lady Lutece explaining this exact thing.  Comstock in their world has aged unusually fast.

Speaking of the Lutece siblings:

Spoiler for Hiden:
I kept waiting for an explanation that they are, in fact, the same person.  IIRC, most of the vox tapes referenced only one of them for a long time. I'm missing 3 tapes, so it's entirely possible that I missed it.
Logged

That's like blaming owls because I suck at making analogies.
Teggy
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 8703


Eat lightsaber, jerks!


View Profile
« Reply #352 on: April 09, 2013, 08:56:56 PM »

So I have been thinking about the ending, and while I get what is supposed to be happening in the end, I don't understand how the actions in the end accomplish this.
Spoiler for Hiden:
What benefit is there to killing the Booker whose point of view we have? He has already passed the decision point. Killing him changes nothing with regards to Comstock. You would have to kill the 20-something-year old Booker.
Logged

"Is there any chance your jolly Garchomp is female?" - Wonderpug
Turtle
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 9425



View Profile WWW
« Reply #353 on: April 09, 2013, 09:46:09 PM »

Quote from: Teggy on April 09, 2013, 08:56:56 PM

So I have been thinking about the ending, and while I get what is supposed to be happening in the end, I don't understand how the actions in the end accomplish this.
Spoiler for Hiden:
What benefit is there to killing the Booker whose point of view we have? He has already passed the decision point. Killing him changes nothing with regards to Comstock. You would have to kill the 20-something-year old Booker.

Spoiler for Hiden:
Using a Tear, Elizabeth brought him back to his 20-something self just before the baptism and drowned him there. They establish that when Elizabeth creates tears, she doesn't just go through, she changes everything and combines worlds, as evidenced by the people you killed going crazy after you go through a tear.

Also evidenced by Booker gaining dead Rebel Booker's memories in the alternate timeline.

Because you just killed comstock, this has a similar effect.

Anyone else really like how they just let the final airship battle be the final battle, and didn't try to spoil everything with a cheesy final boss like Bioshock 1, and so many other shooters?

After such an intense fight, you basically get a have a wonderful endgame sequence.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 09:48:38 PM by Turtle » Logged
Lordnine
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 1531


Lord of the Rutabagas


View Profile WWW
« Reply #354 on: April 09, 2013, 09:49:14 PM »

Quote from: Bullwinkle on April 09, 2013, 06:36:29 PM



Speaking of the Lutece siblings:

Spoiler for Hiden:
I kept waiting for an explanation that they are, in fact, the same person.  IIRC, most of the vox tapes referenced only one of them for a long time. I'm missing 3 tapes, so it's entirely possible that I missed it.

Spoiler for Hiden:
I believe the missing tapes you are looking for are in the Lutece Lab.  If I recall there were two there.  One explains what the Luteces are and the other explains a bit more about the relationship between Sir and Lady Comstock.  The lab is more or less across the road from the graveyard.
Logged
Gratch
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 12522


GO UTES!!


View Profile
« Reply #355 on: April 09, 2013, 10:41:00 PM »

Quote from: Turtle on April 09, 2013, 09:46:09 PM

Quote from: Teggy on April 09, 2013, 08:56:56 PM

So I have been thinking about the ending, and while I get what is supposed to be happening in the end, I don't understand how the actions in the end accomplish this.
Spoiler for Hiden:
What benefit is there to killing the Booker whose point of view we have? He has already passed the decision point. Killing him changes nothing with regards to Comstock. You would have to kill the 20-something-year old Booker.

Spoiler for Hiden:
Using a Tear, Elizabeth brought him back to his 20-something self just before the baptism and drowned him there. They establish that when Elizabeth creates tears, she doesn't just go through, she changes everything and combines worlds, as evidenced by the people you killed going crazy after you go through a tear.

Also evidenced by Booker gaining dead Rebel Booker's memories in the alternate timeline.

Because you just killed comstock, this has a similar effect.

Anyone else really like how they just let the final airship battle be the final battle, and didn't try to spoil everything with a cheesy final boss like Bioshock 1, and so many other shooters?

After such an intense fight, you basically get a have a wonderful endgame sequence.

Here's the other part that was gnawing at me last night.  I'm sure there's an logical explanation that I'm just missing:

Spoiler for Hiden:
Booker kills Comstock by bashing his head against the fountain.  In doing so, he's basically killing...himself.  Seems that would cause at least a minor paradox/ripple/confusion, but they seemed to jump right on past it.  The only thing I can figure is that since the Booker that kills Comstock is from a alternate reality, it doesn't have any effect in this one.  But that just seems...off, somehow.  With all the dimension jumping, wouldn't killing yourself have at least some sort of an effect?

Maybe I'm just overthinking it...
Logged

ďMy next great decision is just lying in wait.
The action might turn out to be the world's most grievous mistake."
- Bad Religion, Past is Dead
Gratch
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 12522


GO UTES!!


View Profile
« Reply #356 on: April 09, 2013, 10:42:20 PM »

A few additional thoughts after having a day to digest it (crossposted from OO).

I finished Bioshock Infinite last night, and I can't get that damn ending out of my head.  Been mulling it over all day, and it even kept me up most of the night last night. I'm still not entirely sure I understand it all, but boy does it make you think.

The game took a while to click with me, but once it did...hoo boy.  There were a few amazing moments for me:

Spoiler for Hiden:
-  When 'Old Elizabeth' reaches out and pulls you up on the ledge to see modern day New York burning.
-  Jumping through the tear and ending up in Rapture.  Maybe I'm just thick, but I did not see that coming at all.  My jaw about hit the floor.
- The Booker/Comstock connection.
-  The entire sequence at Comstock House where you are trying to save Elizabeth from being tortured.  YK mentioned turning around to see the sentry standing behind you...I also jumped out of my seat.
-  The first time I heard CCR through a tear.  Also, I had been pretty much ignoring the olde-timey music coming from the phonographs until I hit Shantytown.  Then I stopped for a second and thought, "Wait, isn't that 'Tainted Love'?"

As a shooter, I didn't think BI was particularly special (although I don't play many FPS games, so there's not a big frame of reference there).  However, the environment, the atmosphere, the character, and the incredible story made up for any shortcomings in the shooty department.  They did an amazing job crafting a world you actually felt immersed in and characters that you truly cared about, Elizabeth in particular.  When I:

Spoiler for Hiden:
heard her being tortured at Comstock House, there was a true sense of urgency in figuring out how to get there and save her because I didn't want to see anything bad happen to her.

Most escort characters are simply annoyances, but the way they handled Elizabeth was amazing.  The pacing, the tension, the head-scratching moments (especially involving music)...all of it was brilliantly executed.

Regarding weapons & vigors:

Spoiler for Hiden:
I was preferential to the Carbine and Burst gun.  I didn't use Vigors overmuch, but was partial to either Shock Jockey or Murder of Crows.  It's fascinating to me to read how we all chose very different paths in regards to weapon and vigor combinations.  I think it speaks to how well crafted the game was.

I wasn't crazy about the fact that I always felt like I was low on ammo, and was practically required to search out every trash can and desk drawer to find more.  That got somewhat annoying after a while, but I recognize it partially as a function of how awful I am at FPS games.  I imagine I used double the amount of ammo as most of you, seeing as how I can't hit the broad side of a barn.  smile  I also really disliked the skyhooks, as I would get totally disoriented whenever I latched on to one.

Other than those minor gripes, I thought it was an excellent game.  I think I still like the original Bioshock best, but this one comes awfully close.
Logged

ďMy next great decision is just lying in wait.
The action might turn out to be the world's most grievous mistake."
- Bad Religion, Past is Dead
Bullwinkle
Gaming Trend Staff
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 15622


Watch me pull a rabbit outta my hat.


View Profile
« Reply #357 on: April 09, 2013, 10:49:22 PM »

Quote from: Gratch on April 09, 2013, 10:41:00 PM

Quote from: Turtle on April 09, 2013, 09:46:09 PM

Quote from: Teggy on April 09, 2013, 08:56:56 PM

So I have been thinking about the ending, and while I get what is supposed to be happening in the end, I don't understand how the actions in the end accomplish this.
Spoiler for Hiden:
What benefit is there to killing the Booker whose point of view we have? He has already passed the decision point. Killing him changes nothing with regards to Comstock. You would have to kill the 20-something-year old Booker.

Spoiler for Hiden:
Using a Tear, Elizabeth brought him back to his 20-something self just before the baptism and drowned him there. They establish that when Elizabeth creates tears, she doesn't just go through, she changes everything and combines worlds, as evidenced by the people you killed going crazy after you go through a tear.

Also evidenced by Booker gaining dead Rebel Booker's memories in the alternate timeline.

Because you just killed comstock, this has a similar effect.

Anyone else really like how they just let the final airship battle be the final battle, and didn't try to spoil everything with a cheesy final boss like Bioshock 1, and so many other shooters?

After such an intense fight, you basically get a have a wonderful endgame sequence.

Here's the other part that was gnawing at me last night.  I'm sure there's an logical explanation that I'm just missing:

Spoiler for Hiden:
Booker kills Comstock by bashing his head against the fountain.  In doing so, he's basically killing...himself.  Seems that would cause at least a minor paradox/ripple/confusion, but they seemed to jump right on past it.  The only thing I can figure is that since the Booker that kills Comstock is from a alternate reality, it doesn't have any effect in this one.  But that just seems...off, somehow.  With all the dimension jumping, wouldn't killing yourself have at least some sort of an effect?

Maybe I'm just overthinking it...

I thought you might be right about this, but thinking a bit further...

Spoiler for Hiden:
The soldiers and such that were killed in the game were normal when Booker and Elizabeth met them in the next dimension, but were in a twisted state when they returned to them, IIRC.  This might be how Booker avoided being affected by the prophet's death.  Also, storytelling.

EDIT:
Spoiler for Hiden:
Actually, AA's great summary above points out another likely reason, if Elizabeth is really meshing the two worlds together. That didn't happen at the point where Comstock got his head bashed in.  OTOH, wouldn't that lead to the various DeWitts having issues each time she brought worlds together in the story?

And, Teggy, yes.  Big thumbs up on the "non-traditional" ending stuff, though it really should be traditional because, you know:
Spoiler for Hiden:
storytelling

Quote from: Lordnine on April 09, 2013, 09:49:14 PM

Quote from: Bullwinkle on April 09, 2013, 06:36:29 PM


Speaking of the Lutece siblings:

Spoiler for Hiden:
I kept waiting for an explanation that they are, in fact, the same person.  IIRC, most of the vox tapes referenced only one of them for a long time. I'm missing 3 tapes, so it's entirely possible that I missed it.

Spoiler for Hiden:
I believe the missing tapes you are looking for are in the Lutece Lab.  If I recall there were two there.  One explains what the Luteces are and the other explains a bit more about the relationship between Sir and Lady Comstock.  The lab is more or less across the road from the graveyard.

I thought I found a couple in there.  Maybe I still missed some, though.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 12:34:00 PM by Bullwinkle » Logged

That's like blaming owls because I suck at making analogies.
Turtle
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 9425



View Profile WWW
« Reply #358 on: April 09, 2013, 10:55:35 PM »

More endgame discussion:
Spoiler for Hiden:
What I really liked about the rapture cameo was that, if you were just sitting back and not looking around, all you would see is Songbird underwater in a very emotional scene.

I didn't move the mouse, just watched the scene. Then realized as the lighting changed and the music came in that it was Rapture.

Also very glad they didn't throw in any splicers to fight, that would have been annoying.
Logged
Autistic Angel
Gaming Trend Senior Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 3633


View Profile
« Reply #359 on: April 09, 2013, 11:02:39 PM »

Quote from: Gratch on April 09, 2013, 03:27:53 AM

Just finished.  Trying to wrap my brain around that ending...it isn't working too well.  Looking forward to reading the spoilers in this thread.


It took me a couple hours myself, especially once I realized how far down the rabbit hole some of plot elements go.  There were a few "Oh, *that* explains it!" moments.

I think it's impossible to understand the ending without discussing the beginning, so here is my understanding of the story in its entirety.  The first thing you read inside the spoiler tag is a critical spoiler.

Spoiler for Hiden:
Following the massacre of Native Americans at the battle of Wounded Knee, a veteran named Booker DeWitt is besieged by his conscience and seeks absolution from a local preacher.  He undergoes an anabaptism, being dunked completely underwater in a creek to signify his readiness to wash away all his sins, and rededicates his life to the gospel of the Lord.  

As part of his spiritual rebirth, Booker DeWitt changes his name to Zachary Comstock.

Meanwhile, a brilliant physicist named Rosalind Lutece delves into the realm of quantum mechanics and begins successfully experimenting with particles that defy the normal laws of physics.  The most obvious result is the invention of the "Lutece Field" which allows infinitely heavy objects to be suspended in mid-air.  The United States congress commissions her to use her invention to levitate an entire city into the sky where it can serve as a roaming beacon for the American way of life.  War hero and rising religious magnate Zachary Comstock is selected to be the leader of Columbia.

The Lutece Field, however, turns out to have several unexplored side-effects.  First, it begins to thin the barrier between worlds, creating small momentary "tears" in specific areas that reveal visions of other times and places.  Comstock mistakes this for divine communication and comes to believe the Archangel Gabriel is rewarding his devotion with the gift of prophecy.  

Rosalind Lutece continues her experiments and comes to discover that they are, in fact, glimpses into the alternate timelines of parallel universes.  She uses modulations in the field to begin trying to communicate with these alternate realities and makes contact with another version of herself.  Or, almost: Robert Lutece is the same person, experimenting with the same technology in an different timeline where the difference of a single chromosome caused him to be born a man.  The two Luteces combine their genius to vastly expand the scope of their work towards stabilizing doorways between dimensions.

Perhaps as a result of the Luteces' work, Comstock catches increasingly vivid peeks at timelines in which Columbia becomes a nation unto itself, raining righteous judgement down upon the surface of the earth.  He becomes obsessed with fathering a child after realizing that the common element in every vision is that the future Columbia is lead by his daughter.  His holy quest, however, is frustrated by the fact that prolonged experimentation with the Lutece field has rendered him completely sterile.

The Luteces' success at bringing Robert through the dimensional barrier to join Rosalind in Columbia provides Comstock with a new plan: if he cannot sire a child of his own, he'll take one from a version of himself in an alternate universe.  Literally the daughter he never had.

Robert and Rosalind isolate a timeline in which Booker Dewitt backed out of the baptism, decided there were no fresh starts in life, and never took the name Comstock.  He married instead, but when his wife died during childbirth, his depression fueled a gambling binge that left him deeply in debt.  Robert crosses the threshold and brokers a deal to purchase Anna, Dewitt's daughter, in exchange for eliminating his gambling debts.  

Dewitt agrees at first, but consumed once again by his guilt, he chases down Robert Lutece and confronts Comstock as they are taking Anna through the portal into Columbia.  They struggle and the infant's pinky finger is severed by the closing rift.

Comstock renames the child Elizabeth and explains the sudden appearance of an heir by crafting an elaborate myth about his wife bringing her to term in a single week.  This is effective at cementing his rule as one of divine lineage...except for the fact that his wife becomes less and less content to play along.

Bringing up Elizabeth presents its own challenges.  Unbeknownst to Comstock, leaving a piece of herself in another world has granted the girl the ability to manipulate space-time tears at will.  At first it's small things, such as changing the color of a book cover or transforming coffee into tea, but even as child, Elizabeth starts showing signs of being able to change reality at will.  Comstock attempts to keep her powers in check by locking her in an immense tower where the Lutece Fields she generates can be constantly siphoned away until a more permanent solution can be found.

The city of Columbia formally secedes from the United States after Comstock responds to the Boxer Rebellion by annihilating Peking, China.  In the years that follow, interdimensional rifts begin to appear in elsewhere in the city, causing technological breakthroughs to come at a haphazard rate as inventions from alternate worlds are reverse engineered by members of the populace.  Jeremiah Fink perfects the assembly line using slave-wage labor ahead of Henry Ford.  His brother becomes a shockingly prolific composer, producing hits like Cindi Lauper's "Girls Just Wanna Have Fun" and Tears for Fears' "Everybody Wants to Rule the World" decades before their time.  Plasmid and Big Daddy technology taken from Rapture are used to produce a secret police force called the Raven Society, mechanized workers called Handymen, and an enormous winged sentry called Songbird.

The silent conspiracy around Elizabeth's birth begins to unravel when Comstock's wife threatens to go public with her belief that the child is the result an affair.  Comstock has her killed, pinning the murder on a house slave named Daisy Fitzroy, and decides to preemptively take down everyone else who knows the truth.  This includes Cornelius Slate, an old army buddy who fought at Wounded Knee and becomes embittered by Comstock's constant self-aggrandizement.  He plots to expose Elizabeth as Comstock's illegitimate child after dicovering Lady Comstock's diaries.

Slate, Fitzroy, Elizabeth, and Dewitt himself do not recognize Comstock as an alternate Dewitt because, as one of the audio logs explains, a lifetime of intense vision seeking in the Lutece Fields has aged him prematurely.

Comstock also tries to kill the Rosalind and Robert Lutece by sabotaging their interdimensional doorway, but rather than dying, the twins splinter and begin existing simultaneously in a multitude of possible realities.  They examine the various probabilities and decide the best chance to set things right is to employ an unbaptised Booker Dewitt to rescue Elizabeth.  Dewitt is yanked from his reality, scrambling his memories with a flurry of coexistant possibilities in the process, and left at the lighthouse beneath Columbia with instructions to bring the girl back to New York.

This is where the game begins.

Over the course of the campaign, Elizabeth uses her burgeoning abilities to make some pivotal changes to the timeline, revealing this is not the first time the twins brought Booker Dewitt to Columbia.  During one other attempt, for example, Booker never encountered Elizabeth but instead fell in with the Vox Populi and died a martyr to their cause.  One of the audio logs also *insinuates* that Songbird is guided by the slaved consciousness of an alternate Dewitt which would explain its single-minded protectiveness, but it's left ambiguous.

The bizarre side effects of her powers suggest that she's not entering another dimension, but rather collapsing two similar realities together in ways that are driving the citizenry mad as they try to reconcile conflicting memories.

In the final act of the game, Elizabeth is seized by Songbird and returned to the tower.  When Dewitt tries to follow, he is pulled into the year 1984 by an aged and weary Elizabeth who grew up to be the great destroyer Comstock always envisioned.  She reveals that he successfully broke her, shackled her powers, and she has spent a lifetime saving up enough to give him a clue on how to control Songbird.

Dewitt and Elizabeth destroy the Siphon, unleashing a massive wave stored quantum energy and fully restoring Elizabeth's powers.  Now capable of weighing every potential outcome of every possibility, she creates a nexus point in the river where Dewitt -- presumably *every* Dewitt -- is drowned in the river.  No baptism, no gambling, and all the possible Elizabeths wink out of existence.

Then that post-credit thing happens.  At that point, your guess is as good as mine.


That's my understanding, anyhow.

-Autistic Angel
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 7 8 [9] 10 11   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.195 seconds with 103 queries. (Pretty URLs adds 0.038s, 2q)