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Author Topic: Achievements, Smoked Eels and Corndogs.  (Read 3445 times)
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HankRaptor
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« on: January 16, 2008, 04:45:16 PM »

I have been giving “achievements” on the Xbox 360 a lot of thought as of late. A friend of mine is egging me on, and I’m still not motivated to run around and collect “insert item here”. Maybe, I’m old and have lost my competitive edge much like a bloated steroid injected out of work bowling star.

Everyone gets a different buzz from gaming. I personally am not a “completionist” gamer anymore, there was a time… I would spend 14 hours looking for new islands in Pirates! for the commodore 64 but lately, the fun in gaming to me is not getting every possible do dangle and orb, the fun in gaming, is just that, the fun. That said, I will be the first to admit a certain level of satisfaction whenever I hear that little ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED sound, telling me what a good little boy and gamer I have been. For me, achievements are not the way, the truth and the life, unless I’m having one hell of a great time collection. But many “completionist” gamers are going GAGA over achievements, and if that is their motivation for making it all the more fun, Im thrilled for them. 

I think this has to do with me being a NINTENDO junkie. I have ALREADY wasted too much time collecting every puzzle piece in Banjo and Tooie and Yooie, Donkey Kong 64 collect-o-thons, Super Mario stars… on and on and I have been there and done that to death. A good friend of mine once gave me sage advice he got from his mother, I love to read books, but life is too damn short to read a bad one, If I bought a book then DAMN IT (shakes his fist to the sky in a mocking fashion)  I was going to finish that damn book! Now, I give the book away… or just toss it aside. Life is too damn short for me to arduously collect dangle mcfiddleywops anymore.

Understand, I want to be clear, I enjoy achievements, but they are not the reason I play games… rather they are an enhancer much like a sexual stimulant, if they make it feel better to play then I’m all for it.

 
« Last Edit: January 16, 2008, 04:48:55 PM by HankRaptor » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2008, 04:49:05 PM »

I'd be lying if I said I don't go out of my way to get some achievements.
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« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2008, 04:51:39 PM »

ever since I discovered you can turn off the pop up's for them I haven't even given them a second thought.
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« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2008, 04:53:05 PM »

Whether I care about the achievements depends upon the game.  If I really love a game, I want to explore all of it and that includes doing most things to get the achievements.  I don't try too too hard to get them though.  But I will play through a game again to get more if I really enjoyed it.

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« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2008, 04:54:57 PM »

I like some achievements (like Crackdown) where the game encourages you to try new things. By no means are they mandatory, but I enjoy them none-the-less.
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« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2008, 04:55:26 PM »

I like them and enjoy getting them. They've even added some extra life to a few games where I've gone back to try and work on an achievement. They're not the reason I play games either though.
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« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2008, 05:05:49 PM »

Quote from: Purge on January 16, 2008, 04:54:57 PM

I like some achievements (like Crackdown) where the game encourages you to try new things. By no means are they mandatory, but I enjoy them none-the-less.

That is the thing for me as well - it has to feel like it is encouraging you to do something fun or it is just filler for me.  Call of Duty 4 for instance just encourages you to complete the game on Veteran.  Gears of War on the other hand asks you to get 10,000 headshots and that is just stupid.
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« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2008, 05:08:34 PM »

I avoid and ignore them as much as I can.  I personally think they're bad for gaming, but I won't go into detail since I know a lot of folks here are big fans of them.
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« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2008, 05:11:07 PM »

I think I spent a month interested in achievements. What I realized is that Achievement-whoring just isn't fun, and that's what I play games for - fun.

For example: One can get 1,000 gamerscore out of playing Avatar for about 5 minutes. I can think of a lot of ways I'd rather spend that game-rental time and that five minutes than playing a game I have no intention of actually playing.

However, I still read the achievements in a game. I decide based on how difficult it sounds if I'll bother. For example: Half Life 2 episode 2: Pedal to the Metal - 5 minutes, 2 re-tries to do it, no problem. I did it. Send the garden gnome into space. - carry a stupid gnome through the entire game with you. Meh. Never going to do it. Heck, even easy achievements like "Barnacle Bowling" - I missed that in the early part of the game, and I have no intention of going back for it. 30 minutes of my time isn't worth it.

I did however play through 940 points of Oblivion for achievements. I felt that playing through these quest lines was enjoyable, so it didn't bother me to do it. I didn't really do it for the 'score', as much as I did it for the fun of it.

It does also bother me when a game makes ALL their gamer-score points ridiculously hard to get. In Guitar Hero 3, for example, one can reasonably expect to get < 100 points by the time they've completed hard. And some of the achievements there are outright retarded. You buy a guitar controller with your game, and yet to get achievements you have to play on a standard controller? That's not just annoying, but it's outright dumb.  (Yeah, I was just looking for an opportunity to rip on GH3 again)

I do believe that they're good for gaming in general, as they encourage and give a way to 'show the community' that you've done certain challenging things within a game. If you're that kind of person. Kind of like how people claim to have gotten to zero world in SMB1 or whatever. But for me, I think that there should be a balance of 'easy, medium, hard and stupid' achievements in a game. I think if you finish a game on normal difficulty you should reasonably expect 300-500 achievement points. Not all the achievements have to be things you go out of your way to do, and only a handful of achievements should be set for the most dedicated gamer.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2008, 05:14:02 PM by DragonFyre » Logged
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« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2008, 05:12:09 PM »

This is like the exact recap of a post I made with almost the same point a few months ago, so I won't reiterate my impressions. Do a search Sam!
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« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2008, 05:16:17 PM »

Quote from: wonderpug on January 16, 2008, 05:08:34 PM

I avoid and ignore them as much as I can.  I personally think they're bad for gaming, but I won't go into detail since I know a lot of folks here are big fans of them.

LOL,i actually think they are one of the best added features of video games for a long time...no i dont go out ofmy way to get them all.......but i will admit that i have played games for longer than i usually would ...or done things i never would have....for example,PGR4..take a picture in 3-D and get an achievement,well..okay then...wouldnt really care otherwise,but it only takes a second...and then again for those people who dont like achievements,i am guessing it really doesnt spoil any games for you,if you dont care for them........i think though,perhaps i would of liked achievements not to have a score attached,so there isnt all this crap about whose got the biggest score etc..but thats just me

edit:yeah i wished i hadnt done the gnome thing in HL2
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« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2008, 05:27:53 PM »

I don't give two shits about achievements...
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wonderpug
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« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2008, 05:35:42 PM »

Quote from: metallicorphan on January 16, 2008, 05:16:17 PM

edit:yeah i wished i hadnt done the gnome thing in HL2

Well there's a great example right there.  Compare people having an annoying time carrying around the gnome because of an achievement to people keeping Dogmeat alive in Fallout because they want to.
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« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2008, 05:43:02 PM »

I like them, in that they can get you to get more of your money's worth out of a game. But in my short time with the 360 I've already discovered that I am not going to go too far out of my way to get achievements if I am not really into the game.  I really enjoyed Tomb Raider: Legends, so I had a good time going back and replaying some parts to grab some achievements.  With Kameo, though, I am getting the feeling I will want to finish the game but not want to go back and try to get "A" ratings. So I'd say overall, achievements are a good thing for me.

The part of achievements that I think became useless within a week of the 360's release is the gamerscore.  There are people out there with huge gamerscores, and while some of them are gamers who just play a lot, you know that a lot more are people who just rent games to boost their score or people that share a gamertag.
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« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2008, 05:47:11 PM »

They can definitely add some fun to the games.  The way I approach them mostly is I let them happen.  I don't usually go out of my way.  There are exceptions, of course, like me doing all the free citizen missions in each city in Assassin's Creed to get those.  I usually don't bother even reading them ahead of time before playing the game, though, to see if there are any I am willing to get.  I mostly just let them come as they may and I do enjoy hearing the sound when they happen.
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« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2008, 05:59:25 PM »

What's hilarious is when a multi-platform game comes out and people cite "achievements" as a reason for going with the 360 version, like the achievement points do anything to enhance the game or fulfill some kind of goal.

Neat idea by Microsoft, not my thing, though.
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« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2008, 06:13:28 PM »

I'm an achievement whore, but I'll still play games where I know I won't most of the achievements (wtf GH3), and spend tons of time in MP games where there are no achievements (COD4).  To me, achievements are "goals" to accomplish when playing a game.  That doesn't mean its game over and the credits start rolling as soon as you get 100% of the achievements in a game.  Like Knightshade said, they can encourage you to maybe try beating a game on a harder difficulty. 
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« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2008, 06:17:26 PM »

RPG's are about the only games I care about obtaining specific achievements in. Since there's none too many of them on the X360 I that I want to play that would make me not very achievement focused. Otherwise I'll take the achievements as they come, but will do little or nothing to go out of my way to get them; I'll leave that up to my son.  slywink
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« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2008, 06:22:05 PM »

Quote from: TheMissingLink on January 16, 2008, 05:59:25 PM

What's hilarious is when a multi-platform game comes out and people cite "achievements" as a reason for going with the 360 version, like the achievement points do anything to enhance the game or fulfill some kind of goal.

Neat idea by Microsoft, not my thing, though.

Is it any different than buying a DVD with directors commentary that you may or may not actually use? I heartily agree that for some that wouldn't be motivation enough; if that is the only reason they've opted to go with a 360 version of a game it seems a little silly. I mean, how much external validation does one need?
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« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2008, 06:24:01 PM »

Quote from: TheMissingLink on January 16, 2008, 05:59:25 PM

What's hilarious is when a multi-platform game comes out and people cite "achievements" as a reason for going with the 360 version, like the achievement points do anything to enhance the game or fulfill some kind of goal.
Who says they don't? (besides you, obviously).  I feel they absolutely *do* enhance the game, if done properly (see the aforementioned 10,000 headshots in Gears as a poor example)

Quote from: depward
]I don't give two shits about achievements...
I'm noticing a pattern here.  Turtle, care to weigh in?
« Last Edit: January 16, 2008, 06:29:03 PM by Laner » Logged
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« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2008, 06:48:42 PM »

While I stated previously that I personally only care about achievements in RPG's, I'm very glad they were there in the RPG's I played. I particular I found them compelling and motivating in both Marvel Ultimate Alliance and Mass Effect and I was pleased that I achieved 1/2 or more of them in my 1st play throughs. I also enjoyed the achievement system in Metroid Prime 3.

My son has also really enjoyed and been challenged by the achievements in Guitar Hero II and Kameo. So although they aren't my cup of tea in most games, I think they do ehance the gameplay experience.
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« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2008, 06:57:47 PM »

Quote from: Laner on January 16, 2008, 06:24:01 PM

Quote from: TheMissingLink on January 16, 2008, 05:59:25 PM

What's hilarious is when a multi-platform game comes out and people cite "achievements" as a reason for going with the 360 version, like the achievement points do anything to enhance the game or fulfill some kind of goal.
Who says they don't? (besides you, obviously).  I feel they absolutely *do* enhance the game, if done properly (see the aforementioned 10,000 headshots in Gears as a poor example)

That's terrific and I have no problem with what you think.  The "besides you, obviously" comment is a tad mean-spirited, unwarranted and downright wrong (see other responses here as well as a multitude of other forums), but I'll just shrug it off, since you think the only reason I don't like the idea and execution of achievements are because they are on the 360 and not the PS3.  Which is an unnecessary correlation.

If achievement points were redeemable for something, maybe, 10,000 points = 1 free song on the Zune marketplace, I'd be more inclined to work towards the goal of obtaining more achievement points.
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« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2008, 06:59:13 PM »

Quote from: Laner on January 16, 2008, 06:24:01 PM

Quote from: TheMissingLink on January 16, 2008, 05:59:25 PM

What's hilarious is when a multi-platform game comes out and people cite "achievements" as a reason for going with the 360 version, like the achievement points do anything to enhance the game or fulfill some kind of goal.
Who says they don't? (besides you, obviously).  I feel they absolutely *do* enhance the game, if done properly (see the aforementioned 10,000 headshots in Gears as a poor example)

Quote from: depward
]I don't give two shits about achievements...
I'm noticing a pattern here.  Turtle, care to weigh in?

You're looking into it waaaay too much bro.  Keep on baiting.  The truth of the matter is - I don't really care about achievements.  It doesn't make me want to do anything and I certainly don't go out of my way to go about getting them.
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« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2008, 07:23:33 PM »

Quote from: TheMissingLink on January 16, 2008, 05:59:25 PM

What's hilarious is when a multi-platform game comes out and people cite "achievements" as a reason for going with the 360 version, like the achievement points do anything to enhance the game or fulfill some kind of goal.

Well I think they provide goals just like the game provides you goals.  The interesting and/or contentious point is that because they "belong" to the OS instead of the game, some people feel they're worthless goals.  I definitely think you can let yourself get locked into a pattern of achievement pursuing, but I'm not sure I see the significance of that, since it's simply another goal.  For instance, completing Call of Duty on Veteran is a fool's errand regardless of the presence of achievements or not.  The mountain would still be there to climb and people would still climb it if there wasn't a pop-up at the end. 

In any case, I can understand people who don't care about them, but I find it very difficult to understand people who claim they are completely valueless or even bad.
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« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2008, 10:17:35 PM »

Quote from: depward on January 16, 2008, 06:59:13 PM

Quote from: Laner on January 16, 2008, 06:24:01 PM

Quote from: TheMissingLink on January 16, 2008, 05:59:25 PM

What's hilarious is when a multi-platform game comes out and people cite "achievements" as a reason for going with the 360 version, like the achievement points do anything to enhance the game or fulfill some kind of goal.
Who says they don't? (besides you, obviously).  I feel they absolutely *do* enhance the game, if done properly (see the aforementioned 10,000 headshots in Gears as a poor example)

Quote from: depward
]I don't give two shits about achievements...
I'm noticing a pattern here.  Turtle, care to weigh in?



You're looking into it waaaay too much bro.  Keep on baiting.  The truth of the matter is - I don't really care about achievements.  It doesn't make me want to do anything and I certainly don't go out of my way to go about getting them.

wait, I said I don't care about them either.  does that make me part of the team?  Tongue
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« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2008, 10:45:56 PM »

This thread has alot of talk about achievements, but is sorely lacking in Corndog discussion.

I remember my first Corndog.
It was at the Illinois State Fair in 1970.
I was 8. We lived in Chicago and I remember thinking how long of a ride it was to get there.
We had alot of Amusement parks in our area and I couldnt understand what the attraction would be that would cause my parents to drag 5 kids in the family station wagon across the state just to go on some rides and see some animals. As soon as we got there, I could literally smell the excitement, both good and bad. One moment you were smelling acres of animal dung and the next you would be smelling popcorn and all kinds of food. All depended on where you were walking. But I distinctly recall my Dad walking us over to a stand and ignoring our calls for popcorn as he told us to back-off and ordered. A few agonizing moments later he walked back and handed us each a strange looking popsicle. WTF? After having a hardy laugh at the puzzled looks on our faces, he divulged what we were holding. Yes it was a hotdog on a stick.
We howled in laughter at the sight of this. What a wacky concept.
Then, after a slight hesitation, it happened. I took the first bite.
OMG. I had NEVER tasted anything so perfect in my life!!!
My brothers and I were giddy and jumping around like we just discovered gold. My sisters pretended they didnt know us, as usual. My oldest brother was the daring one who came up with the idea to try it with mustard and ketchup. I refused at first, not wanting anything to get between my taste buds and this deep fried hunk of heaven. But after seeing the joy on his face after dipping it, I relented and followed suit.
It was like finding a dollar after just finding a quarter.
Till this day, each time I bite into one, I am transported back to that day.
Just like I am after cleaning up after the dog in the yard.
I cherish both memories.

As far as Smoked Eels....yuck.
I'll leave those stories to someone else.

And also, I'm not into the achievements thing either. Unless they add something to the gameplay, or are things I stumble upon, I have no interest in hunting down every shell on the beach.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2008, 10:49:01 PM by stimpy » Logged
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« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2008, 10:50:29 PM »

depward choked on a corndog in the 2nd or 3rd grade, and the Principle of our elementary school saved his life.
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« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2008, 11:00:04 PM »

i've played my fair share of games with an eye on the achievements, but i don't get too obsessive about it any more.  i also have a fair number of games with low gs scores associated with them (lost planet).

i like them for a different reason.  when you compare your games to other people's, it's like a mini quantitative review of how much they liked/played the game.  unless they're whoring for points, you can see people's tastes pretty clearly. 

i also like it when they push you into doing odd things, ala crackdown.  would i have juggled a car or body in the air for x seconds if not for an achievement?  not likely, as i wouldn't even have thought of doing it. 
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« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2008, 11:22:20 PM »

Achievements have encouraged me to change my gaming in a couple of ways: 

1. play the game somewhat differently in ways that I might not have.  Example: the sandtrap achievement in HL2.  Yes, I got it.  It wasn't that hard.   However, I wouldn't have reloaded the few times I made the sand rumble.   I might have gone a little more straight ahead shooting as well.

2.  Replay HL2.   I've played it several times.   Not sure I would have done it again if it weren't for the achievements.

3.  Play a game at harder difficulty.   COD4 on veteran is a much different experience than on normal.

- shaggy
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« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2008, 11:24:49 PM »

Indeed I was choking on a corndog in 4th grade when my principal came up and did the Heimlich on me.  DAMNEAR SAVED MY LIFE

And I've never tried smoked eel.  Don't really feel up to ever trying it actually... not a big seafood fan.
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« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2008, 01:09:57 AM »

I certainly won't go out of my way to get an achievement.  I won't be doing any of the "collect 60 flags" achievements in Assassin Creed, for instance.

However, I really dig how Mass Effect does achievements.  You hit level 50 with a character, not only do you get the achievement, you get +10% exp for the next playthrough.  You kill 150 enemies with the shotgun, you unlock the shotgun skill; you use overload 75 times, you unlock overload skill.  Next time you play, and start a new character, you can select one bonus skill from the unlocked skills.

Therefore, you can start say...an Adept (basically a mage), and pick assault rifle (making it an adept, using the soldier-only weapon).

That's pretty cool.

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« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2008, 01:35:08 AM »

Yeah, the way Mass Effect handles things is really good.  I hope more developers start doing things like that.
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« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2008, 01:50:42 AM »

Quote from: depward on January 16, 2008, 11:24:49 PM

Indeed I was choking on a corndog in 4th grade when my principal came up and did the Heimlich on me.  DAMNEAR SAVED MY LIFE

only damnear??  what,are you a zombie or something?
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« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2008, 02:22:33 AM »

Quote from: wonderpug on January 16, 2008, 05:35:42 PM

Quote from: metallicorphan on January 16, 2008, 05:16:17 PM

edit:yeah i wished i hadnt done the gnome thing in HL2

Well there's a great example right there.  Compare people having an annoying time carrying around the gnome because of an achievement to people keeping Dogmeat alive in Fallout because they want to.

Yep.  Well said.
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« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2008, 01:27:56 PM »

Quote from: TheMissingLink on January 16, 2008, 06:57:47 PM

Quote from: Laner on January 16, 2008, 06:24:01 PM

Quote from: TheMissingLink on January 16, 2008, 05:59:25 PM

What's hilarious is when a multi-platform game comes out and people cite "achievements" as a reason for going with the 360 version, like the achievement points do anything to enhance the game or fulfill some kind of goal.
Who says they don't? (besides you, obviously).  I feel they absolutely *do* enhance the game, if done properly (see the aforementioned 10,000 headshots in Gears as a poor example)

That's terrific and I have no problem with what you think.  The "besides you, obviously" comment is a tad mean-spirited, unwarranted and downright wrong (see other responses here as well as a multitude of other forums), but I'll just shrug it off, since you think the only reason I don't like the idea and execution of achievements are because they are on the 360 and not the PS3.  Which is an unnecessary correlation.

If achievement points were redeemable for something, maybe, 10,000 points = 1 free song on the Zune marketplace, I'd be more inclined to work towards the goal of obtaining more achievement points.

I will tell you one thing TML if the PS3 had an achievement system I would buy one in a heartbeat.  I love the achievement system in the "added goal" kind of way.  I view them almost like mini missions within a game.  It harkens back to my days playing Wing Commander on the PC when you would receive medals/trophy's from completing missions (and can view said medals/trophy's in your characters locker or medal case) and you rise up the killboard as you rack up Kilrathi kills.  It's like a little personal reward and it makes me feel good when I get one.  And the overall gamerscore is a nice way to track my progress in game playing compared to other friends on my list.  Not in a competitive way but a tracking way.  And if I need advice on a particular hard part in a game I can ask somebody who already got that achievement or passed that point.  I've done this several times already.

So you see they do have a value to me and they are just plain fun.  Like shaggydoug, achievements have also pushed me to try playing games on higher difficulty levels as well and they do make me approach a game differently, which is a good thing and has inspired me more to play games.

I don't own a PS3 by choice for now but if I did have one and an identical game was available for both the X360 and the PS3, I would most certainly pick it up on the X360 because of the added fun (as stated above) of achievements.  I've been hearing rumors of the PS3 adding some kind of achievement system and I hope they do.  I don't even care if they copy Microsoft and call them achievements.  The PS3 having some sort of achievement system would certainly push me closer to picking one up and moving over to the Dark Side of gaming.  icon_wink
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WalkingFumble
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« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2008, 03:26:21 PM »

Quote from: Starshifter on January 17, 2008, 01:27:56 PM



I will tell you one thing TML if the PS3 had an achievement system I would buy one in a heartbeat.  I love the achievement system in the "added goal" kind of way. 

Home for PS3 is supposed to have 'trophies' which are basically the same.
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« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2008, 03:28:37 PM »

Quote from: WalkingFumble on January 17, 2008, 03:26:21 PM

Quote from: Starshifter on January 17, 2008, 01:27:56 PM



I will tell you one thing TML if the PS3 had an achievement system I would buy one in a heartbeat.  I love the achievement system in the "added goal" kind of way. 

Home for PS3 is supposed to have 'trophies' which are basically the same.

Yeah, but, there is no info on how many there will be for each game, what format they will display when you get them, and early rumors at least is that they will ONLY be viewable from home (what a stupid idea) so you can't even access your list from the dashboard. Discounting how absurd I think the idea of home is (and it catching on as some sort of phenomenon and spurring PS3 sales-please, lets not descend into insantiy), that is a major issue if they can't integrate the "score" easily into the XMB.
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« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2008, 03:47:59 PM »

Quote from: Starshifter on January 17, 2008, 01:27:56 PM

I will tell you one thing TML if the PS3 had an achievement system I would buy one in a heartbeat. 

what if Bullet Witch 2 was a PS3 exclusive?  how far would you go to get yourself some Alice?  Tongue
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« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2008, 03:49:35 PM »

Quote from: warning on January 17, 2008, 02:22:33 AM

Quote from: wonderpug on January 16, 2008, 05:35:42 PM

Quote from: metallicorphan on January 16, 2008, 05:16:17 PM

edit:yeah i wished i hadnt done the gnome thing in HL2

Well there's a great example right there.  Compare people having an annoying time carrying around the gnome because of an achievement to people keeping Dogmeat alive in Fallout because they want to.

Yep.  Well said.

I think it's a completely spurious comparison.  The gnome achievement is one that's clearly meant to be difficult.  It's a goal provided by the game developers for those who want an extra layer of challenge.  You want to make a seperation based on what the player "wants to do" but that requires the assumptions that the gnome achievement is never fun for anyone and that keeping Dogmeat alive is always fun and never becomes an annoyance.  For me, the issue still seems to be that people are uncomfortable about being given goals outside of the game's context, even though the goals are provided by the game designers themselves.  I'm not saying that attitude is in the wrong, but I'm not sure I see how it's bad for gaming.
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« Reply #39 on: January 17, 2008, 04:33:16 PM »

If it weren't for Achievements, I would have stopped playing Crackdown after about ninety minutes.  Instead, I stopped playing after I spent about forty minutes scaling the Shai-Gen's obnoxious M.C. Escher-esque skyscraper, reached the summit, got knocked down by a single enemy grenade, and watched my agent lie motionless on the ground while enemies spent the next four minutes gradually shooting him to death.

The Crackdown disc is now in several small pieces at the bottom of my trashbin, but I'll rest easy knowing that the Achievement points I earned will stay with me forever. thumbsup

-Autistic Angel
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