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Author Topic: Achievements > Trophies  (Read 3217 times)
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ATB
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« on: October 29, 2009, 03:14:09 PM »

I don't know what it is, as it's virtually the same concept, but personally I do not care two squirts about tropies...however in a lot of cases I'll replay a game or modify how I play it to get achievements.

What say you?
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« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2009, 03:21:39 PM »

I have no idea what's so great about achievements compared to trophies. I only have a PS3, but from what I've seen of the 360, its achievements seem completely unexciting. I'd much rather work towards levels with some significance and division into various levels of trophies instead of looking at a generic gamerscore. It's very satisfying to bring up my PSN card and see that I'm level 12, that I have 7 platinum trophies, that I have 26 gold trophies, etc. Seeing that I have, say, a gamerscore of 25390 would only be a number without meaning and wouldn't catch my interest.
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« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2009, 03:23:49 PM »

I actually agree with TiLT. I think that the trophy level and platinum trophies give you information about the gamer you can't get from achievement points at a glance. I still like achievements, but there's something to be said for trophies.

The bigger problem is that they are not available for all games, so it does not give an impression of how much you have really played your PS3.
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« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2009, 03:27:45 PM »

Quote from: SensuousLettuce on October 29, 2009, 03:14:09 PM

I don't know what it is, as it's virtually the same concept, but personally I do not care two squirts about tropies...however in a lot of cases I'll replay a game or modify how I play it to get achievements.

What say you?


Agreed.  All other factors being equal, I'll pick the 360 version for the Achievements.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2009, 03:28:10 PM »

The main difference for me is that gamerscore is displayed prominently across all friends lists.  No matter where you look, you usually see name and gamerscore.  That makes it very easy to compare against your friends.  On the PS3, you have to dig a bit to find and compare trophies.

The other thing that bugs me about the trophies display on PS3 is that it shows you a completion percentage against all trophies available across all games you've ever played.  To me, that emphasizes my failure to get most of them, since mine and most of my friends completion % is below 20%.  The 360 approach is to simply show you what you've gotten, which tends to emphasize your accomplishments.  
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« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2009, 03:41:35 PM »

Gamasutra had a nice article this week by one of the MSFT usability specialists; it has a couple charts showing the percentage of achievement points earned from a number of titles, and the top completion percentages for campaigns.  North of 70% completed COD4's campaign, for example.

The primary focus of the article is about the right way to provide goals to players to prevent frustration and encourage effort; I would love for developers to take the message to heart and reduce some of the more punitive punishments for in-game failure.
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« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2009, 03:44:44 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on October 29, 2009, 03:41:35 PM

Gamasutra had a nice article this week by one of the MSFT usability specialists; it has a couple charts showing the percentage of achievement points earned from a number of titles, and the top completion percentages for campaigns.  North of 70% completed COD4's campaign, for example.

The primary focus of the article is about the right way to provide goals to players to prevent frustration and encourage effort; I would love for developers to take the message to heart and reduce some of the more punitive punishments for in-game failure.

I read this yesterday and thought it was a great read!
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« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2009, 03:47:54 PM »

While I love my PS3, the trophies make little sense to me... They first of all take time to calibrate for some reason, and that annoyes me...secondly, I like the way the Xbox displays things instead, where its easy to see things, instead of just having a long list of names and numbers as it seems trophies are...to be honest, I havent looked at my trophies at all, but I do like my achievements! My kids and my GF likes them as well, and kinda compete...but not on the PS3 - its just too well hidden there for easy accesability...
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ATB
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« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2009, 03:54:44 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on October 29, 2009, 03:41:35 PM

Gamasutra had a nice article this week by one of the MSFT usability specialists; it has a couple charts showing the percentage of achievement points earned from a number of titles, and the top completion percentages for campaigns.  North of 70% completed COD4's campaign, for example.

The primary focus of the article is about the right way to provide goals to players to prevent frustration and encourage effort; I would love for developers to take the message to heart and reduce some of the more punitive punishments for in-game failure.

The problem with that article though is that almost every game on that list has MP as the primary gameplay mode or a significant component of it.

I barely touched the SP of W@W, but I played the MP for days- so did I 'complete' it? No. If there was a gauge for completing the MP, I'm sure I would have....

Also, I played bad company for months before going back and beating the campaign....

So i think the numbers are a bit skewed.
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« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2009, 03:59:11 PM »

Quote from: Razgon on October 29, 2009, 03:47:54 PM

While I love my PS3, the trophies make little sense to me... They first of all take time to calibrate for some reason, and that annoyes me...

Agreed - as soon as you get an achievement, it's on xbox.com.  I'm pretty puzzled as to how trophies get synched, other than going in an looking at them in the XMB.
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« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2009, 04:20:09 PM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on October 29, 2009, 03:27:45 PM

Quote from: SensuousLettuce on October 29, 2009, 03:14:09 PM

I don't know what it is, as it's virtually the same concept, but personally I do not care two squirts about tropies...however in a lot of cases I'll replay a game or modify how I play it to get achievements.

What say you?


Agreed.  All other factors being equal, I'll pick the 360 version for the Achievements.

-Autistic Angel

Thirded.  I can't say exactly why.  I will go out of my way to get an Achievement but I couldn't care less about Trophies.  Maybe I just care about Achievements more because I was exposed to them first.  Also I have less than 10 people on my PSN FL so no one will see my Trophies anyway.  I have had a PS3 for a long time and I have no idea how to even check on another players' Trophy list.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2009, 04:22:20 PM by denoginizer » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2009, 04:24:16 PM »

Quote from: SensuousLettuce on October 29, 2009, 03:14:09 PM

I don't know what it is, as it's virtually the same concept, but personally I do not care two squirts about tropies...however in a lot of cases I'll replay a game or modify how I play it to get achievements.

What say you?

yup,pretty much the same here,i have a few Trophies....but didn't really pay attention to them like i do with 360 achievements,and i don't think its the points that do it,as i am not that bothered about my actual gamerscore,i just love achievements and 7 cases out of 10 i will usually go out of my way to go get one
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TiLT
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« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2009, 04:49:52 PM »

Hmmm, I guess you Americans don't have official Playstation Network cards yet, do you? One of the things that makes trophies appealing is the card that we get in Europe for posting online, like this: (It's in Norwegian)



If we maintained a list of trophy cards here at GT, how would this skew your opinions about achievements vs trophies?
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« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2009, 05:18:43 PM »

The main difference is that achievements give you one number.  Quick, simple, easy to grok with a single glance.  Sony's implementation isn't confusing, but it's not as easily digestible.  Looking at Tilt's card - there's six figures.  The 812 isn't immediately discernible, unless you bother to look at the individual trophy scores.  And what about the 12?  What  does that represent?  

And there's also the fact that *every* 360 title has achievements built in.  PS3 titles are hit and miss.

Not that I care much either way... after I hit 10,000 on the 360, it became unimportant.  My PS3 trophy score is even less so.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2009, 05:22:58 PM by Laner » Logged
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« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2009, 05:19:16 PM »

Quote from: Laner on October 29, 2009, 05:18:43 PM

The main difference is that achievements give you one number.  Quick, simple, easy to grok with a single glance.  Sony's implementation isn't confusing, but it's not as easily digestible.  Looking at Tilt's card - there's six figures.  The 812 isn't immediately discernible, unless you bother to look at the individual trophy scores.  And what about the 12?  What  does that represent?  

That's the one they want you to see.  12 is his gamer "level". 
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« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2009, 05:20:01 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on October 29, 2009, 04:49:52 PM

Hmmm, I guess you Americans don't have official Playstation Network cards yet, do you? One of the things that makes trophies appealing is the card that we get in Europe for posting online, like this: (It's in Norwegian)



If we maintained a list of trophy cards here at GT, how would this skew your opinions about achievements vs trophies?

WOW, you have 7 Platinum's?

Alright, I just displayed why I think Trophy's have the edge on Achievements and my reason actually deals with the Trophy and Achievement. I noticed alot of people replying saying Trophy's are hard to find on the PS3, they don't update as fast, etc. Well personally I believe that is a PS3 system software issue, not a Trophy issue.

I like Trophy's because they are broken down into categories. And you get a PLATINUM one for getting every single other trophy. Your gamerscore just gets another 1000G added to it, so who knows how many games you have completed 100%? You would have to go through the list and look. By looking at TiLT42's card I can see they have beaten 7 games 100%, without even turning on my PS3.

And yes we do have those nice Trophy cards, I'm sure no one uses.

Anyways all in all, they are the same. Trophy's are just categorized and based on difficulty. Achievements are numbers that add up for you to display. Achievements come in different values, 30g, 50g, etc. Which you could compare, a 30g is a Bronze Trophy. 50g, is a Silver, etc.

I believe they are technically the same, Sony came out with their system after, which in a way it should be more refined and better, which I believe is true in some ways.

I like both, I just play PS3 more, I actually sold my 360 recently. I have a friend who has 48000 gamerscore, but still likes getting Trophies.

Also I believe since December 2008 Sony has made it mandatory for every game to have Trophy's.

The thing I don't like about Trophies is the Level. I just don't think they added that in very well. What is the max level? What is the goal?
« Last Edit: October 29, 2009, 05:22:26 PM by Darren8r » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2009, 05:20:50 PM »

It's that little mostly empty bar on there that I was talking about.  It kind of undermines TiLT's achievements.  Yes, he's got all those trophies, but look at all the ones he doesn't have.
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« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2009, 05:22:00 PM »

I like that both systems have some kind of system like this.  I buy more games for my PS3 now than 360, so it's nice to still get some points for playing.  For both systems I sometimes go out of the way to get an achievement or trophy.
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« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2009, 05:24:15 PM »

Quote from: Darren8r on October 29, 2009, 05:20:01 PM

Your gamerscore just gets another 1000G added to it, so who knows how many games you have completed 100%? You would have to go through the list and look. By looking at TiLT42's card I can see they have beaten 7 games 100%, without even turning on my PS3.

The 360 will also quickly display how many games you have maxed out, at least on the dashboard (I think it's the second or third panel under "My Xbox" where it shows your total achievement score).  No idea if it's visible to others.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2009, 05:26:57 PM by Laner » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2009, 05:26:41 PM »

Quote from: Chaz on October 29, 2009, 05:20:50 PM

It's that little mostly empty bar on there that I was talking about.  It kind of undermines TiLT's achievements.  Yes, he's got all those trophies, but look at all the ones he doesn't have.

That isn't what you think it is. It's my "XP bar", representing how far into level 12 I am. When it reaches 100%, I become level 13.
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« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2009, 05:27:52 PM »

As I started reading this thread, I was in the "same difference, both meaningless" camp. I was a gamerscore whore at one point, but I got over it. Seeing TiLTs PSN card, I think the trophy concept is better as the different levels of trophies give an idea of how they were earned. A gamerscore can be inflated by getting the easy achievements in lots of games. There's nothing in there telling you that I got all the achievements in a ton of games or just got the easiest 200 points in 5 times as many games.

I'm still in the "same difference, both meaningless" camp, but I've learned an appreciation for the trophy concept that I didn't have before.

I'm still buying multi-platform games on the xbox for the controller. slywink
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« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2009, 05:37:31 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on October 29, 2009, 05:26:41 PM

Quote from: Chaz on October 29, 2009, 05:20:50 PM

It's that little mostly empty bar on there that I was talking about.  It kind of undermines TiLT's achievements.  Yes, he's got all those trophies, but look at all the ones he doesn't have.

That isn't what you think it is. It's my "XP bar", representing how far into level 12 I am. When it reaches 100%, I become level 13.

Ah, see, this I didn't know.  Probably because it's not explained anywhere. 

That said, I still prefer the 360's easily digestible gamerscore.  While trophy tiers are neat, I have to actually sit and look at them to get the information I want.  Is the 812 in that pic the total number of trophies? If so, since that's the easiest number to grok, were I an e-peen farmer, I'd probably just go collecting bronzes, which isn't terribly different than farming 360 achievements.
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« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2009, 05:40:30 PM »

Quote from: SensuousLettuce on October 29, 2009, 03:54:44 PM

If there was a gauge for completing the MP, I'm sure I would have....

Sure there is.  It's called getting the highest prestige along with the highest level in that prestige.

I doubt you did that, so then no, you didn't "complete" the MP.
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« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2009, 05:42:34 PM »

Quote from: Chaz on October 29, 2009, 05:37:31 PM

Ah, see, this I didn't know.  Probably because it's not explained anywhere. 

That said, I still prefer the 360's easily digestible gamerscore.  While trophy tiers are neat, I have to actually sit and look at them to get the information I want.  Is the 812 in that pic the total number of trophies? If so, since that's the easiest number to grok, were I an e-peen farmer, I'd probably just go collecting bronzes, which isn't terribly different than farming 360 achievements.

Trophies won't make all that much sense unless you yourself use a PS3, in much the same way as the 360 gamerscore doesn't make sense unless you use a 360. For example, Darren8r mentioned a guy having a gamerscore of 48000. To me that's just a random number that doesn't tell me anything about whether it's good or bad unless I have some context to place it in. It's the same with the PS3, except that if you get some of the concepts explained it will make more sense. If I tell you that the uppermost trophy type shows how many games I've gotten all trophies in, everyone will have some concept of my accomplishments.

Also, in a competitive environment you wouldn't get much respect from farming bronze trophies. It's the Platinums that count, followed by the level.
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« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2009, 06:08:46 PM »

See, the thing is that I do have a PS3.  My point is that a system that breaks the achievements into different categories is more detailed, but harder to take in at a glance.  It's the difference between a baseball game's regular final score and the box scores.  Most people mainly care about the final score, and the box score is there for people who want the full story of the game.  The 360 puts the final score front and center, while the PS3 puts more emphasis on the box score. 
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« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2009, 07:27:08 PM »

achievements are more social and i know way more people with a 360 than a ps3. i like seeing how i stack up against other friend's in the same game.
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« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2009, 07:54:55 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on October 29, 2009, 03:21:39 PM

I have no idea what's so great about achievements compared to trophies. I only have a PS3, but from what I've seen of the 360, its achievements seem completely unexciting. I'd much rather work towards levels with some significance and division into various levels of trophies instead of looking at a generic gamerscore. It's very satisfying to bring up my PSN card and see that I'm level 12, that I have 7 platinum trophies, that I have 26 gold trophies, etc. Seeing that I have, say, a gamerscore of 25390 would only be a number without meaning and wouldn't catch my interest.

This is an interesting discussion.

I am the complete opposite of you, and I totally agree with Sensuous Lettuce.  To me, numbers have much more meaning than platinum/gold/silver.  You do know that for Achievements, it's not just one total number... you can also see individual numbers for each specific game?
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« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2009, 07:59:14 PM »

Quote from: KePoW on October 29, 2009, 07:54:55 PM

you can also see individual numbers for each specific game?

That you can do with trophies too. You can see each game's individual distribution of trophy types at a glance, and can see each single trophy if you wish. You can also do side-by-side comparisons against friends and easily see which trophies they have compared to you. These tools are also available on the Playstation website.

The gamerscore is a poor way to present accomplishments because the number in itself means nothing. If you gain 1000 points maximum from each game, a score of 10,000 doesn't tell me if you have maxed out 10 games or found 10% of the achievements in 100 games. I can't see the appeal at all.
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« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2009, 08:04:56 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on October 29, 2009, 05:42:34 PM

Quote from: Chaz on October 29, 2009, 05:37:31 PM

Ah, see, this I didn't know.  Probably because it's not explained anywhere. 

That said, I still prefer the 360's easily digestible gamerscore.  While trophy tiers are neat, I have to actually sit and look at them to get the information I want.  Is the 812 in that pic the total number of trophies? If so, since that's the easiest number to grok, were I an e-peen farmer, I'd probably just go collecting bronzes, which isn't terribly different than farming 360 achievements.

Trophies won't make all that much sense unless you yourself use a PS3, in much the same way as the 360 gamerscore doesn't make sense unless you use a 360. For example, Darren8r mentioned a guy having a gamerscore of 48000. To me that's just a random number that doesn't tell me anything about whether it's good or bad unless I have some context to place it in. It's the same with the PS3, except that if you get some of the concepts explained it will make more sense. If I tell you that the uppermost trophy type shows how many games I've gotten all trophies in, everyone will have some concept of my accomplishments.

Also, in a competitive environment you wouldn't get much respect from farming bronze trophies. It's the Platinums that count, followed by the level.

This really is a great subject... because the fact of the matter is I do have a PS3.  In fact I have a 60gb launch one, so I've had it a long time.

And I *still* think that Trophies are a hell of a lot harder to understand and find and compare, as many others have said.  I think one reason is that with the 360, you can directly see the Gamerscore of everyone on your entire Friends list without having to go into any other menus or moving your cursor.  It just seems like with the PS3 you gotta go through multiple button presses to hunt for people's trophy info.

And again, numbers make a lot more sense to me than different color levels.
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KePoW
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« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2009, 08:14:34 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on October 29, 2009, 07:59:14 PM

Quote from: KePoW on October 29, 2009, 07:54:55 PM

you can also see individual numbers for each specific game?
The gamerscore is a poor way to present accomplishments because the number in itself means nothing. If you gain 1000 points maximum from each game, a score of 10,000 doesn't tell me if you have maxed out 10 games or found 10% of the achievements in 100 games. I can't see the appeal at all.

I guess my personal feeling is that I don't care so much if a friend has *fully* completed a game or not.  That is irrelevant to me, it's more about how much total gaming time or experience a friend has accomplished.

If I see a friend with 30000 gamerscore, I know they have definitely played and gotten a good amount of games/achievements.  It doesn't matter whether that 30k came from 30 different games or 90.

<edit> At this point, there is definitely no doubt that I would much rather play a multi-platform game on the 360 for Achievements, rather than the PS3 version for Trophies.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2009, 08:16:23 PM by KePoW » Logged
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« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2009, 08:23:49 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on October 29, 2009, 07:59:14 PM

Quote from: KePoW on October 29, 2009, 07:54:55 PM

you can also see individual numbers for each specific game?

That you can do with trophies too. You can see each game's individual distribution of trophy types at a glance, and can see each single trophy if you wish. You can also do side-by-side comparisons against friends and easily see which trophies they have compared to you. These tools are also available on the Playstation website.

The gamerscore is a poor way to present accomplishments because the number in itself means nothing. If you gain 1000 points maximum from each game, a score of 10,000 doesn't tell me if you have maxed out 10 games or found 10% of the achievements in 100 games. I can't see the appeal at all.


don't remember where, but there is indeed a place online to see what % of each game that you've played you've maxed as well as the total % of achievements possible you've played.  Everything you say about the achievements is there, it just wasn't when they were released.

I also couldn't care less about getting full score on a game.  I'm about to get my first 1000 on Borderlands, but only because you can get them all in multi.  I played hundreds of hours of Forza 2, CoD4 and CoD:WaW and I think my max is under 400 for each of those.

edit: not quite what i was looking for, but the first thing on the list of games played on XBOX.com is '103 Game(s) Played
20715 of 76355 Gamerscore'  which does give an idea of how you got the points you have.
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« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2009, 08:39:10 PM »

Quote from: Harkonis on October 29, 2009, 08:23:49 PM

20715 of 76355 Gamerscore

Interestingly, this is exactly the kind of thing Chaz commented that he doesn't like with the PS3's trophies (it shows exactly how much you HAVEN'T completed). It then seems to turn out that the 360 is the only console to display how much you're missing on a total basis, while the PS3 doesn't.  icon_lol
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« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2009, 08:49:29 PM »

Quote from: jersoc on October 29, 2009, 07:27:08 PM

achievements are more social and i know way more people with a 360 than a ps3.

I agree with this.  The people I regularly play games with all have 360s.  If for whatever reason we all played on PS3s I might care about Trophies more.
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TiLT
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« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2009, 08:52:03 PM »

Yeah, I on the other hand only know one guy with a 360, but multiple people with PS3s. The Playstation brand is way more popular over here than the Xbox is.
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« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2009, 08:58:28 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on October 29, 2009, 08:52:03 PM

Yeah, I on the other hand only know one guy with a 360, but multiple people with PS3s. The Playstation brand is way more popular over here than the Xbox is.

Well then that would definitely be part of your preference (understandably).

It sure as hell is no fun comparing your achievements or trophies to only one other person.
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Chaz
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« Reply #35 on: October 29, 2009, 10:28:26 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on October 29, 2009, 08:39:10 PM

Quote from: Harkonis on October 29, 2009, 08:23:49 PM

20715 of 76355 Gamerscore

Interestingly, this is exactly the kind of thing Chaz commented that he doesn't like with the PS3's trophies (it shows exactly how much you HAVEN'T completed). It then seems to turn out that the 360 is the only console to display how much you're missing on a total basis, while the PS3 doesn't.  icon_lol

Fair enough.  Though the main thing that gets displayed on the 360 when looking at your friends list and your tag in the top right of the dashboard is your raw score, and when you compare games with friends, you compare raw scores as well.

The other part of it is the ease of comparing scores, since they're displayed front and center along with gamertag.  I don't remember my PSN friends list doing anything like that with trophies, instead requiring that I (I think) highlight a friend, hit triangle, hit compare trophies, and then wait quite a while it synchronizes our trophies.  The 360's method is just quicker.
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KePoW
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« Reply #36 on: October 29, 2009, 10:34:32 PM »

Quote from: Chaz on October 29, 2009, 10:28:26 PM

The other part of it is the ease of comparing scores, since they're displayed front and center along with gamertag.  I don't remember my PSN friends list doing anything like that with trophies, instead requiring that I (I think) highlight a friend, hit triangle, hit compare trophies, and then wait quite a while it synchronizes our trophies.

Yeah, this is definitely the part that bothers me the most about the whole comparison.
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Canuck
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« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2009, 11:43:08 PM »

Anybody who cares about achievements or trophies are just huge nerds.  All I care about is the good feeling I get whenever I hear that sound and the little notice pops up in the top righthand corner.  Other than that I don't care.  I've never looked any any of your gamer cards and I never will.
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DamageInc
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« Reply #38 on: October 30, 2009, 01:57:30 AM »

I just try to accomplish as many goals in a playthrough as possible.
I look at them as mini goals. I play many long games like RPGs so I typically only play through a game once.

With short games I will try to beat the game on a harder difficulty for the challenge.

In the end, they don't mean much because they are not evenly weighted.

I can spend 120 hours + in an RPG and maybe get half the trophies/achievements, but I can spend 10 to 20 hours in another game and get most of the trophies/achievements

So the aggregate is no big deal. I just like the mini-challenges.

I am not a "booster". I play the games I want to play and that's it. No Avatar and all that other BS.
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MaxSteele
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« Reply #39 on: October 30, 2009, 02:01:02 AM »

Quote from: Canuck on October 29, 2009, 11:43:08 PM

Anybody who cares about achievements or trophies are just huge nerds.  All I care about is the good feeling I get whenever I hear that sound and the little notice pops up in the top righthand corner.  Other than that I don't care.  I've never looked any any of your gamer cards and I never will.

Yes I am.
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