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Author Topic: 360 will support 1080p!  (Read 1378 times)
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happydog
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« on: September 20, 2006, 03:06:20 PM »

As noted at /.

http://games.slashdot.org/games/06/09/20/1219227.shtml

So does this mean much to anyone? (Other than Sony)
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« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2006, 03:09:00 PM »

Quote from: happydog on September 20, 2006, 03:06:20 PM

So does this mean much to anyone? (Other than Sony)

No, because it still doesn't support HDMI.  It goes back to the same argument with the $500 Sony SKU- while it can *technically* output 1080p for movies and games over a component connection, the number of 1080p sets on the market that support 1080p over component (vice HDMI) is so absurdly small you'd be better off going to look for Bigfoot.

It's a nice bullet point and shot against Sony's "the only true HD is 1080p" line, but it's of almost no value to actual consumers.   
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shaggydoug
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« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2006, 03:24:13 PM »

Quote from: Kevin Grey on September 20, 2006, 03:09:00 PM

Quote from: happydog on September 20, 2006, 03:06:20 PM

So does this mean much to anyone? (Other than Sony)

No, because it still doesn't support HDMI.  It goes back to the same argument with the $500 Sony SKU- while it can *technically* output 1080p for movies and games over a component connection, the number of 1080p sets on the market that support 1080p over component (vice HDMI) is so absurdly small you'd be better off going to look for Bigfoot.

It's a nice bullet point and shot against Sony's "the only true HD is 1080p" line, but it's of almost no value to actual consumers.   

But then there is always this cable here.

referenced from engadget



- shaggy
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shaggydoug
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« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2006, 03:27:59 PM »

I realized after posting the above I've opened up the fact that it doesn't exist yet.  I know that.  It seems likely that it is coming though with the various data points we're getting.

- shaggy
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« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2006, 03:34:55 PM »

Quote from: shaggydoug on September 20, 2006, 03:24:13 PM

Quote from: Kevin Grey on September 20, 2006, 03:09:00 PM

Quote from: happydog on September 20, 2006, 03:06:20 PM

So does this mean much to anyone? (Other than Sony)

No, because it still doesn't support HDMI.  It goes back to the same argument with the $500 Sony SKU- while it can *technically* output 1080p for movies and games over a component connection, the number of 1080p sets on the market that support 1080p over component (vice HDMI) is so absurdly small you'd be better off going to look for Bigfoot.

It's a nice bullet point and shot against Sony's "the only true HD is 1080p" line, but it's of almost no value to actual consumers.   

But then there is always this cable here.

referenced from engadget



- shaggy

The problem is how do you add HDMI support to a console when the port doesn't exist in the first place?  I don't think a USB to HDMI converter would work since it is my understanding that USB 2.0 can't handle the throughput of uncompressed HD. 

Hmm, you might be able to do a component to HDMI conversion.  It is illegal to do component to HDMI (and vice versa) conversion using HDCP protection but they might be able to get by with it if they don't include HDCP but I'm not sure.  But if that's the case, then that would mean Sony could offer up the same and they've made no mention of it . 

They could, of course, add an HDMI port to the new 360 rev next year, but that seems like a crappy thing to do. 
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Knightshade Dragon
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« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2006, 03:38:00 PM »

1080p can be done with component cables.  HDMI is Sony's attempt at adding a copy protection layer.
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« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2006, 03:41:44 PM »

Quote from: Knightshade Dragon on September 20, 2006, 03:38:00 PM

1080p can be done with component cables.  HDMI is Sony's attempt at adding a copy protection layer.

Not really.  First see my comment above- 1080p can be done with component but the vast majority of 1080p TVs don't support it.

Sony doesn't really care about a copy protection layer for games- the HDCP flags are just present to prevent capture of the video itself- obviously something you want to prevent for movies but useless for preventing game piracy. Sony gains nothing by enabling the ICT (Image Constraint Token) for gaming.  And Sony (or any other movie studio) have yet to implement ICT in any Bluray/HD-DVD disc and aren't really expected for another five years or so. 
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« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2006, 03:53:59 PM »

Quote from: Kevin Grey on September 20, 2006, 03:34:55 PM

The problem is how do you add HDMI support to a console when the port doesn't exist in the first place?  I don't think a USB to HDMI converter would work since it is my understanding that USB 2.0 can't handle the throughput of uncompressed HD. 

Hmm, you might be able to do a component to HDMI conversion.  It is illegal to do component to HDMI (and vice versa) conversion using HDCP protection but they might be able to get by with it if they don't include HDCP but I'm not sure.  But if that's the case, then that would mean Sony could offer up the same and they've made no mention of it . 

They could, of course, add an HDMI port to the new 360 rev next year, but that seems like a crappy thing to do. 

Is the 360 video cable converting from a proprietary format to component in the fat piece that connects to the 360? Perhaps we just plug an HDMI port adapter into the prioretary port on the back of the console (or that is the fat piece of the proprietary HDMI cable).

I'm guessing here, I have no idea what's in the cable and what's in the 360.
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« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2006, 04:07:52 PM »

Quote
Not really.  First see my comment above- 1080p can be done with component but the vast majority of 1080p TVs don't support it.
True, but you could also say that most people don't own a 1080p capable TV as well.  Most recent ones do - mine does. smile

Quote
Sony doesn't really care about a copy protection layer for games- the HDCP flags are just present to prevent capture of the video itself- obviously something you want to prevent for movies but useless for preventing game piracy. Sony gains nothing by enabling the ICT (Image Constraint Token) for gaming.  And Sony (or any other movie studio) have yet to implement ICT in any Bluray/HD-DVD disc and aren't really expected for another five years or so. 
Also true.  I wasn't very specific.  I also don't see it working very well once pirates have it for 30 or so minutes.
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« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2006, 04:13:20 PM »

Quote from: coopasonic on September 20, 2006, 03:53:59 PM

Is the 360 video cable converting from a proprietary format to component in the fat piece that connects to the 360? Perhaps we just plug an HDMI port adapter into the prioretary port on the back of the console (or that is the fat piece of the proprietary HDMI cable).

I'm guessing here, I have no idea what's in the cable and what's in the 360.

I'd forgot about that port was somewhat generic but I'm somewhat doubtful.  That port is analog unless the 360 cables themselves are somehow performing digital to analog conversion (which I doubt) but then again I haven't looked at my 360 video cable since I hooked it up.

Still, if MS had an HDMI solution that was compatible with the existing console then the announcement of the HD-DVD add-on and 1080p would have been the time to announce it.   
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Kevin Grey
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« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2006, 04:19:07 PM »

Quote from: Knightshade Dragon on September 20, 2006, 04:07:52 PM

[True, but you could also say that most people don't own a 1080p capable TV as well.  Most recent ones do - mine does. smile

Your TV supports 1080p over component?  What model if you don't mind me asking?

Anyway, if 10% of the current install base of HDTVs support 1080p, maybe 1% of that 10% supports 1080p over component- that's the size of the customer base that MS and Sony are targeting with their non-HDMI 1080p stuff.
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« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2006, 04:26:55 PM »

Quote from: Kevin Grey on September 20, 2006, 04:19:07 PM

Quote from: Knightshade Dragon on September 20, 2006, 04:07:52 PM

[True, but you could also say that most people don't own a 1080p capable TV as well.  Most recent ones do - mine does. smile

Your TV supports 1080p over component?  What model if you don't mind me asking?

Anyway, if 10% of the current install base of HDTVs support 1080p, maybe 1% of that 10% supports 1080p over component- that's the size of the customer base that MS and Sony are targeting with their non-HDMI 1080p stuff.

It is a Mitsubishi DLP 56" Widescreen.  I don't know the model number, but I do remember watching the little 'built in' advertisement whatnot that runs until you turn it off.  It shows 1080p versus 720p and states that it supports 1080p through component or HDMI.

Oh, and I've heard the HDTV installbase is 25% of the total market.  So this'd be 10% of that 25%.  Makes that number even smaller.
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« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2006, 04:32:43 PM »

Quote from: Knightshade Dragon on September 20, 2006, 04:26:55 PM


It is a Mitsubishi DLP 56" Widescreen.  I don't know the model number, but I do remember watching the little 'built in' advertisement whatnot that runs until you turn it off.  It shows 1080p versus 720p and states that it supports 1080p through component or HDMI.

This one?  That's the only Mits 56" 1080p DLP, but it only supports 1080p via HDMI.  Component is 1080i and under.  The only manufacturer I've heard widespread support of 1080p via component is Westinghouse. 

Quote
Oh, and I've heard the HDTV installbase is 25% of the total market.  So this'd be 10% of that 25%.  Makes that number even smaller.

Oh absolutely- that's what I meant. 
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« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2006, 04:35:29 PM »

Quote from: Kevin Grey on September 20, 2006, 03:34:55 PM

Quote from: shaggydoug on September 20, 2006, 03:24:13 PM

Quote from: Kevin Grey on September 20, 2006, 03:09:00 PM

Quote from: happydog on September 20, 2006, 03:06:20 PM

So does this mean much to anyone? (Other than Sony)

No, because it still doesn't support HDMI.  It goes back to the same argument with the $500 Sony SKU- while it can *technically* output 1080p for movies and games over a component connection, the number of 1080p sets on the market that support 1080p over component (vice HDMI) is so absurdly small you'd be better off going to look for Bigfoot.

It's a nice bullet point and shot against Sony's "the only true HD is 1080p" line, but it's of almost no value to actual consumers.   

But then there is always this cable here.

referenced from engadget



- shaggy

The problem is how do you add HDMI support to a console when the port doesn't exist in the first place?  I don't think a USB to HDMI converter would work since it is my understanding that USB 2.0 can't handle the throughput of uncompressed HD. 

Hmm, you might be able to do a component to HDMI conversion.  It is illegal to do component to HDMI (and vice versa) conversion using HDCP protection but they might be able to get by with it if they don't include HDCP but I'm not sure.  But if that's the case, then that would mean Sony could offer up the same and they've made no mention of it . 

They could, of course, add an HDMI port to the new 360 rev next year, but that seems like a crappy thing to do. 

I don't think uncompressed HD is more than 480mbps? I was thinking that was USB2.0's limit. I could be wrong though, I haven't read up much on HD over USB.
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« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2006, 04:40:46 PM »

Quote from: jblank on September 20, 2006, 04:35:29 PM

I don't think uncompressed HD is more than 480mbps? I was thinking that was USB2.0's limit. I could be wrong though, I haven't read up much on HD over USB.

Hmm, I think you're right- a quick search shows Bluray movies at 54 Mbps.  Still, I'm not sure that USB 2.0 is HDCP compliant. 
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« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2006, 04:57:09 PM »

Quote from: Kevin Grey on September 20, 2006, 04:40:46 PM

Quote from: jblank on September 20, 2006, 04:35:29 PM

I don't think uncompressed HD is more than 480mbps? I was thinking that was USB2.0's limit. I could be wrong though, I haven't read up much on HD over USB.

Hmm, I think you're right- a quick search shows Bluray movies at 54 Mbps.  Still, I'm not sure that USB 2.0 is HDCP compliant. 

I'd bet its not.
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« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2006, 05:05:52 PM »

Maybe a dumb question, but assuming we're just talking about games for the moment, then there's supposed to be a software update to allow uprez of existing games to 1080p. But itsn't it a good bet that any tv that supports 1080p can already do the upconversion by itself?
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« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2006, 05:08:14 PM »

Quote from: jblank on September 20, 2006, 04:57:09 PM

Quote from: Kevin Grey on September 20, 2006, 04:40:46 PM

Quote from: jblank on September 20, 2006, 04:35:29 PM

I don't think uncompressed HD is more than 480mbps? I was thinking that was USB2.0's limit. I could be wrong though, I haven't read up much on HD over USB.

Hmm, I think you're right- a quick search shows Bluray movies at 54 Mbps.  Still, I'm not sure that USB 2.0 is HDCP compliant. 

I'd bet its not.

I'm going to backpedal again too since I realized that 54 Mbps is how fast the player reads the disc, which is the compressed bitrate.  Any transfers out of the 360 are uncompressed, so that bitrate is going to be significantly higher. 
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« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2006, 05:20:08 PM »

Quote from: Misguided on September 20, 2006, 05:05:52 PM

Maybe a dumb question, but assuming we're just talking about games for the moment, then there's supposed to be a software update to allow uprez of existing games to 1080p. But itsn't it a good bet that any tv that supports 1080p can already do the upconversion by itself?

It will upconvert the signal, yes. This is why some people try to buy upconverting DVD players that do 480i over HDMI so the scaler on their TV can do the work.
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« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2006, 06:16:07 PM »

Since we've noted that 1080p doesn't NEED double the bandwidth (using television's 3:2 pulldown), all that really means is that the sets that can output 1080p will be able to do so with the signal provided, right?

I think the output from the 360 isn't analog until it hits the bulkhead connector; the VGA (which are admittedly analog high density 15 pin) are able to alter screen resolution. The fact that the 360 knows what kind of cable is plugged in, and can select SD vs HD on the cables leads me to believe that the cable portion can handle the higher throughput (even if it IS analog going into the cable).

Look at it this way : we don't know what the max data throughput is from the 360 to the cable itself (MS's proprietary bulkhead connector). If they include tech in the cable to convert 1080p analog to digital outside the 'box, it doesn't matter as long as it hits the TV using HDMI / DVI D etc...).

I'm sure this was a consideration as to why MS didn't just put component out jacks on the back of the 360; that would have been the cheapest way to go at implementation time. I believe these upgrades are not reactional to Sony; they were looking at BD vs HDDVD whilst they were building the 360. It should come as no great surprise if they made backroads to be able to accomplish step-ups that in previous consoles were unattainable without a complete hardware upgrade.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2006, 06:18:47 PM by Purge » Logged

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« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2006, 06:25:01 PM »

Quote
Since we've noted that 1080p doesn't NEED double the bandwidth (using television's 3:2 pulldown), all that really means is that the sets that can output 1080p will be able to do so with the signal provided, right?

I'm not sure 3:2 pulldown is relevant when dealing with games.  3:2 pulldown is just a method used for converting 24 fps film to 60 Hz video.  For true 1080p gaming, you are talking about delivering the full 1920x1080 frame sixty times a second. 

Quote
I'm sure this was a consideration as to why MS did NOT just put component out jacks on the back of the 360; that would have been the CHEAPEST way to go at implementation time. These steps, believe it or not; are not reactional.

If they have an HDMI solution then now would have been the time to announce it. 
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« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2006, 06:55:08 PM »

They have X06 next week. I doubt they're going to blow their load all today.

If they are going to debase and rock the h/w platform of the Sony boat, it's going to be more than one wave.
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« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2006, 06:58:50 PM »

Quote from: Purge on September 20, 2006, 06:55:08 PM

They have X06 next week. I doubt they're going to blow their load all today.

If they are going to debase and rock the h/w platform of the Sony boat, it's going to be more than one wave.

Maybe, but splitting this news doesn't make sense here because all this does is introduce confusion.  Surely there will be other, major announcements coming next week, but I don't think they gain anything by announcing 1080p this week and HDMI the next.  Their point would be bolder and clearer had they come out and said "full 1080p and HDMI support for movies and games"  in one announcement, whether it be at X06 or TGS.   
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« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2006, 07:01:18 PM »

I don't don't disagree; however this is the first day of TGS and there were no other hardware announcements today. Maybe tomorrow?
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« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2006, 07:06:35 PM »

It would be kind of weird since this was at MS's press conference so they already shot their load, so to speak.  Then again, Nintendo did announce the new Super Smash Brothers after their E3 conference, so anything is possible, I suppose. 
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« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2006, 07:14:51 PM »

Here's some more stuff to chew on:

Anandtech maintains that 360 can output digital signal
Gizmodo "confirms-sorta" that a cable will be available.
Blurry rumours of HDMI ports being built-in to a new 360
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