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Author Topic: 360 Propaganda Idiocy, courtesy of J. Allard  (Read 3991 times)
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« on: October 09, 2005, 09:10:47 PM »

Remorselessly stolen wholesale from Quarter to Three:

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Just saw this article on Edge Online about Allard's X05 interview regarding the Xbox 360 SKU without a hard disk.


Quote

Faced with the suggestion that Microsoft might have let down developers by removing the guarantee of a hard drive in every box, Allard said: “I don’t know who we’ve let down. There isn’t a game on 360 that you can’t play without a hard drive, so I think that’s a good thing for consumers. We’ve made a commitment to broadening the audience, and while I think most of our energy here at X05 is about the hardcore, over time we’re really setting the stage for making this a bigger category for everybody. [...] So that seems like a win for developers – I’m not sure who’s supposed to be disappointed.

It was put to Allard that Saint’s Row developer Volition had expressed difficulty in realising some of its ambitions for the project since the removal of the hard drive from the equation (citing issues with streaming and caching), to which he responded: “Sometimes doing the right thing means doing the hard thing. Are there developers who are disappointed? Yeah, sure. I wish there was a hard drive and I wish there were four terabytes of memory; I wish it were free to consumers and I wish we could put one in every TV set – there are a lot of wishes that I have but at the end of the day we’re trying to run a business, and you have to make those trade-offs. It was a difficult one – I was the biggest fan of the hard drive and its potential, but the problem is that we sold 22million Xbox consoles and 5million, maybe 10million just don’t care about it. But we paid for it. So who pays for it this time? We can either ask the gamer to pay for it, pay for it ourselves, or prove that there’s enough value in it and have the gamer say ‘I want to pay for it’ – I think that’s the right model. [...]

You know, being first you sometimes get some crap, and we’ve had some crap. But I think it’s very pro-consumer and very pro-developer, and I think that in five years everybody will look back and say that this was a very, very good move on our part to launch worldwide and to have the flexibility for consumers to decide on their products.”



One site visitor posted the only appropriate reply to this embarrassing propaganda drivel:

Quote

I can't believe this Allard is such an idiot, so I guess he's taking the consumers for idiots.


Link:  http://www.quartertothree.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=21986

Fuck M$.
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« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2005, 09:34:13 PM »

LOL, J. Allard is a joke.  That's just silly.
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« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2005, 09:47:10 PM »

:lol:

That said, I'm still getting one.  It's not like Hitler created it :wink:
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« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2005, 09:52:10 PM »

I agree that I still like the real 360, but J. Allards spin is out of control. Its just poppycock. Horseshit. Nonsense.
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« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2005, 10:57:20 PM »

Shameful PR spin really.  Nobody wants to say that they did it to hit the 299 price point, so thousands and thousands of people and quite a few analysts are saying it for him.  Personally, I'd rather step up and say it myself - no real mystery then.
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« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2005, 11:22:20 PM »

He is saying they took it out to make the $299 price point:

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So who pays for it this time? We can either ask the gamer to pay for it, pay for it ourselves, or prove that there’s enough value in it and have the gamer say ‘I want to pay for it’ – I think that’s the right model.


I don't think it is a bad model.  How many XBox users really cared there was a hard drive?  Sure, it was nice for saves, but so are memory cards.  I don't think a lot of people ripped music, or took advantage of the hard drive.  Most developers didn't really use the hard drive to any significant extent either.   I'm sure people on this forum used it, but then people here tend to be a little more demanding then the average gamer I'd bet.

So why should Microsoft pay for another hard drive on the 360?  Gamers will stlil be able to buy it and use it to the same extent as they did with the XBox.  

Developers will use the lack of the hard drive to complain, and to use it as an excuse to cut features because they aren't smart enough, can't plan enough, or rush the games to quickly.  Forums will complain as well.

Allard's point is valid:
Quote
I wish there was a hard drive and I wish there were four terabytes of memory; I wish it were free to consumers and I wish we could put one in every TV set – there are a lot of wishes that I have but at the end of the day we’re trying to run a business,

More memory would go a lot further then any hard drive.  So would a lot of other things, but Microsoft I'm sure wants to eventually make money on this, so they had to draw the line somewhere.

Pretty easy for people on forums, who don't examine numbers, don't really understand what programmers can use the hard drive for, and who don't have to care about making and losing money; to complain and complain.

If you don't like it without the hard drive standard, don't buy it and wait for the PS3 without its hard drive.  

People here whine worse then my 2 and 5 year olds smile.
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« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2005, 11:33:28 PM »

I stand corrected.  Nonetheless, I'm a 1st day adopter with a hard drive. smile  I'll support the idea that its safe to support the HDD in ways other than music rips and such.  Give me fast loading and unlimited saves. smile
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« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2005, 11:34:04 PM »

Quote from: "Scott"

People here whine worse then my 2 and 5 year olds smile.


 :  :  biggrin  biggrin  frown  :lol:  :cry:  :wink:  :cry:  :lol:  frown  smile  biggrin  biggrin  biggrin  :idea:  :idea:  :!:

I agree.  We dont even know when the PS3 is going to come out, we dont know the full specs on it, we dont even know the price of it, but it seems like a lot of people here are for it and against the 360.  If you can, why not get the 360 now and enjoy next-gen sooner.  I want to play better games now.  I also want the PS3 and Revolution.  So, if the 360 ends up sucking I will simply trade it in towards a PS3 when it comes out.  I cant see where siding with one system and hating another will benefit anyone.  This guy does spin more than a DJ and Baghdad bob combined.
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« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2005, 11:46:21 PM »

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Give me fast loading and unlimited saves

Then you'll get the hard drive package as you said, and will be happy.  I'm sure just as many games will take advantage of the hard drive in the 360, as they did in the original XBox.
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« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2005, 01:13:17 AM »

Heh, I'm not exactly sure whether that's a sly jab you made with your last sentence there, Scott, because from what I understand, pretty much the only game to utilize the HD beyond "faster cache processing/custom soundtrack" was Blinx.

With regards to the HD, I've said it before, but I always thought that was one very right step that Microsoft did with its Xbox, and I was hoping that the next generation would have it as default across all consoles.
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« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2005, 01:22:00 AM »

Quote from: "Scott"
Quote
Give me fast loading and unlimited saves

Then you'll get the hard drive package as you said, and will be happy.  I'm sure just as many games will take advantage of the hard drive in the 360, as they did in the original XBox.
Which was next to none.

M$ was in the position to advance the console platform by seriously utilizing an HDD.  Not only did they choose not to do that, which is idiotic enough, they also had the gall to lie about it.

The 360 will be the XBox all over again, aka, a vapid system for sports and racing games with the occasional Halo n to maintain some kind of killer app mascot.  And its only redeeming feature will continue to be XBox Live -- which, if Microsoft continues in this line of devolving product and marketing design, will be completely missing from the XBox 720, or whatever, assuming Bill hasn't seen the light and pulled the plug on this fiasco by then.
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« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2005, 02:18:35 AM »

Quote from: "-Lord Ebonstone-"
Quote from: "Scott"
Quote
Give me fast loading and unlimited saves

Then you'll get the hard drive package as you said, and will be happy.  I'm sure just as many games will take advantage of the hard drive in the 360, as they did in the original XBox.
Which was next to none.

M$ was in the position to advance the console platform by seriously utilizing an HDD.  Not only did they choose not to do that, which is idiotic enough, they also had the gall to lie about it.

The 360 will be the XBox all over again, aka, a vapid system for sports and racing games with the occasional Halo n to maintain some kind of killer app mascot.  And its only redeeming feature will continue to be XBox Live -- which, if Microsoft continues in this line of devolving product and marketing design, will be completely missing from the XBox 720, or whatever, assuming Bill hasn't seen the light and pulled the plug on this fiasco by then.


Of course putting "M$" in your post instantly shows a bias which in turn causes me to disregard everything you say.  Last time I checked, KOTOR, KOTOR II, Jade Empire, Morrowind, Ninja Gaiden, Fable, Unreal Championship 2, Mech Assault, Panzer Dragoon, Far Cry Instincts, The Chronicles of Riddick, Oddworld Strangers Wrath are just a few of the non-"sports, racing, and Halo n" games available for the Xbox.  Obviously Bill Gates is making money or there wouldnt be a 360.  I see no reason why he should "pull the plug."
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« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2005, 02:31:31 AM »

Quote from: "GatorFavre"
Obviously Bill Gates is making money or there wouldnt be a 360. I see no reason why he should "pull the plug."


If by Bill Gates you mean Xbox then, no, the Xbox is not making money.  There was an article that was discussed here recently which had MS's losses on the Xbox in the realm of 4 billion.  IIRC the Xbox has had only one profitable quarter which was last year when Halo 2 was released.  

Now, the plan all along was to take losses in the first generation and profit the second.  Interviews from Robbie Bach and Bill Gates concerning the 360 make it seem pretty darn important that Xbox sees a profit in the coming generation or there very likely won't be a third after that.
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« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2005, 02:59:31 AM »

*cough* http://www.consolegold.com/News/news.php?NewsID=4007 *cough*

See LE, you could be pissing and moaning about this thing a full three days earlier if you checked the front page.  slywink
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« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2005, 03:06:09 AM »

:oops:

Sorry Graham, I didn't read that... guess the title wasn't evocative/descriptive enough for me to have clicked it...
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« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2005, 05:42:23 AM »

Time for the old standby:

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« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2005, 05:52:42 AM »

I heart you.
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« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2005, 06:07:46 AM »

Oh pff, it's copyright 2002.  Dredging up a comic that old or fuck, posting any Penny Arcade comic is just as bad a geek sin as the cliche 'M$'.
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« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2005, 01:05:59 PM »

Quote
The 360 will be the XBox all over again, aka, a vapid system for sports and racing games with the occasional Halo n to maintain some kind of killer app mascot. And its only redeeming feature will continue to be XBox Live -- which, if Microsoft continues in this line of devolving product and marketing design, will be completely missing from the XBox 720, or whatever, assuming Bill hasn't seen the light and pulled the plug on this fiasco by then.

Don't buy one then.  I don't think any of us will care.  Don't you have anything better to do then pick on Microsoft and its games/systems?  Any other hobbies?

 
Quote
they also had the gall to lie about it.

How are they lying?  They've been honest that they don't want to pay for it, and are letting gamers decide.  No one used the XBox's hard drive, so even if they included it with the 360 standard, why would developers suddenly start using it?  Come on.  You can do better then attacking the same things over and over.
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« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2005, 01:17:22 PM »

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The 360 will be the XBox all over again, aka, a vapid system for sports and racing games with the occasional Halo...


PERFECT!!!

Exactly what I, and most others, want.

If it is as LE claims, then MS is doing the right thing!
 
RANK - TITLE - PLATFORM - PUBLISHER
1 - Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas - PS2 - Take II Interactive
2 - Halo 2* - XBX - Microsoft
3 - Madden NFL 2005* - PS2 - Electronic Arts
4 - ESPN NFL 2K5 - PS2 - Take II Interactive
5 - Need For Speed: Underground 2 - PS2 - Electronic Arts
6 - Pokemon Fire Red W/ Adapter - GBA - Nintendo of America
7 - NBA Live 2005 - PS2 - Electronic Arts
8 - Spider-Man: The Movie 2 - PS2 - Activision
9 - Halo - XBX - Microsoft
10 - ESPN NFL 2K5 - XBX - Take II Interactive

Of the 10 top selling games of '04, you have 5 sports and racing games and 2 of 'the occasional Halo".

Taking LE's advice would have MS aiming their system squarley at 30% of the market rather than 70%.
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« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2005, 01:50:04 PM »

Quote from: "Devil"
Taking LE's advice would have MS aiming their system squarley at 30% of the market rather than 70%.
Only 30% of that list is XBox anyway....
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« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2005, 01:58:46 PM »

Quote from: "Scott"
Don't buy one then.  I don't think any of us will care.  Don't you have anything better to do then pick on Microsoft and its games/systems?  Any other hobbies?

Say what?  How frequently have I picked on Microsoft?  Yeah, I recently complained about Age of Empries 3, because it seems like a really weak game, but on the other hand, I recently praised Dungeon Siege 2, which is a pretty strong game.  I'd like to think I'm calling a spade a spade.

Quote
How are they lying?
 
You don't remember the gigantic thread which resulted from Microsoft annoucing there would be two XBoxes, one ghetto, one real?  How they'd said all along that features like the HDD and wireless controllers would be standard -- but that turned out to be a lie, as they weren't standard at all, but part of a 'premium' pack which doomed the HDD to actually seeing use this iteration?

Quote
No one used the XBox's hard drive, so even if they included it with the 360 standard, why would developers suddenly start using it?  Come on.  You can do better then attacking the same things over and over.

Because the idea and impression I always got, and an impression I think alot of others got too, was that Microsoft would encourage more use of the HDD, either nicely via various incentives or "use it or else."  Either way would ultimately be better for the advancing the platform itself.
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« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2005, 02:11:48 PM »

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Only 30% of that list is XBox anyway....


The point remains. 70% of the best selling games were Halo or Sports/Racing. That's where the focus SHOULD be.
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« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2005, 02:26:14 PM »

Quote from: "Scott"


 
Quote
they also had the gall to lie about it.

How are they lying?  They've been honest that they don't want to pay for it, and are letting gamers decide.  No one used the XBox's hard drive, so even if they included it with the 360 standard, why would developers suddenly start using it?  Come on.  You can do better then attacking the same things over and over.


Just a quick note on the lying bit:  J. Allard said at the Microsoft event at E3 that 1) there would be only one SKU, 2) it would have the hard drive and 3) it would be 'around $300'.  This info comes from Knightside Dragon, so there ya go.

Now, it's entirely possible that he was told this before E3 and it changed just after E3.  We don't know exactly what happened.  So while technically he didn't -lie- (if he didn't know that the info was changing), he gave out solid information that turned out to be false...which is nothing that Bill Gates hasn't done in the past.  Halo 3 for PS3 launch date, anyone?
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« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2005, 03:32:42 PM »

Quote
Just a quick note on the lying bit: J. Allard said at the Microsoft event at E3 that 1) there would be only one SKU, 2) it would have the hard drive and 3) it would be 'around $300'. This info comes from Knightside Dragon, so there ya go.

Features change right?  I don't remember all of those E3 comments being set in stone.  The only comments that matter were the final release packages and prices, and Microsoft has been honest about the reasons why they've changed, which is what I meant.  I really didn't care what they said at E3, or along the way, as I figured it could and probably will change, as it has in the past.

Quote
Because the idea and impression I always got, and an impression I think alot of others got too, was that Microsoft would encourage more use of the HDD, either nicely via various incentives or "use it or else." Either way would ultimately be better for the advancing the platform itself.

I'm not disagreeing with you that the hard drive as a standard item wouldn't be cool.   I imagine Microsoft did push the hard drive first for the first XBox, and I remember reading about it a lot.  What probably happened, is that Microsoft pushed the hard drive, and it still wasn't utilized in any great manner.  Multiplatform games probably didn't take advantage of it, and those few XBox exclusives that did, probably didn't in any great manner.  So, Microsoft, seeing that the hard drive wasn't fully utilized, decided to not put it on the console as a standard item.

If you think about it, even if the hard drive costs Microsoft $20 for each XBox 360, that's huge.  If the Xbox 360 only sells 1 million units, Microsoft saves themselves $20 million dollars, for a feature, that at its best, was really minimal in impact for the XBox.  Why spend all that money, for something in the end doesn't make much difference.

Microsoft did step up and double the RAM in the system I believe, which makes a tremendous difference.  One of the XBox magazines mentions this.

Quote
Say what? How frequently have I picked on Microsoft?

Sorry then.  So many people are complaining about the hard drive, it gets kind of old.  I also survived a weekend with a cold and two whiny kids, so I wasn't in the best of moods smile.
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« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2005, 07:22:11 AM »

Quote from: "Scott"
How are they lying?  They've been honest that they don't want to pay for it, and are letting gamers decide.  No one used the XBox's hard drive, so even if they included it with the 360 standard, why would developers suddenly start using it?  Come on.  You can do better then attacking the same things over and over.



The actual running of the game isn't the only way you can use the HD. Allot of MS marketing basically requires the HD. They pump up Live all the time and you are going to need the HD to really take advantage of all the stuff they talk about.. DL's like new maps/ units takes up space. They want to offer demos which takes space etc etc. You need a HD for MMO games unless you want to just port a  games that been running for years already like they did with Everquest on the PS2. The measly 64MB memmory card will barely cover the average gamers saves.

The bottom line is Allards talk of thats its for the consumer is a joke. The core system is just bad deal. Compare all that you get with the $400 dollar system with the "true" cost of the basic system and its not even that much more. The "true" part is the fact that you have to buy a memmory card anyways with the core system so its only $60 less then. Well I guess you don't if you never plan on saving a single game.

They gimped developers out of the HD to meet some stupid marketing point so they can meet the $300 price point of previous generations.
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« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2005, 12:35:32 PM »

Quote from: "-Lord Ebonstone-"
Oh pff, it's copyright 2002.  Dredging up a comic that old or fuck, posting any Penny Arcade comic is just as bad a geek sin as the cliche 'M$'.

And yet it remains incredibly accurate...
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« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2005, 03:58:27 PM »

Quote
The core system is just bad deal. Compare all that you get with the $400 dollar system with the "true" cost of the basic system and its not even that much more.

Definitely a bad deal, but yet, for $300, some parent may buy the system for their kid instead of at the $400 price point.  I'm sure Microsoft has done a ton of research into the price points at which people will buy.  They didn't just pull these numbers out of their collective butts.
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« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2005, 05:00:47 PM »

Okay, I couldn't care less about all the politics, truths, lies, or J. Allard - or even Bill.  The XBox is my favorite console - because of the games first, and the hard drive next.  I find more games that I like to play on the XBox, and I don't even play sports games.  Also, I prefer the hard drive to a memory card system, and, of the non-exclusive titles that I've compared, every one has simply looked better on the Box.  It's still mostly the game preferences, though.  I suspect I'd play more PS2 games than XBox games if I liked turn-based RPG's, lol.

Now, here's something to think about (maybe):
Quote
The core system is just bad deal.
Jumangi, you are totally correct!  It is a crap deal, no doubt about it - but:  IF the 360 hard drive is easy to remove - it's location makes it easy, but I don't know how it attaches. Add that Mom and Dad may realize that they made a mistake buying the core system.  So will a few people who couldn't get the hard drive version, and "settled."  There should be some pretty good deals available for used non-HD 360's. IF the drive is easy to detach, and IF you're like me and know you'll get a second one eventually... le voila! (I hope)...  Now you have two, and you just take your HD to the unit you want to use at the time.  Is this crazy, or brilliant?  I'm hoping brilliant!  :lol:

Now, anyone here know how the HD will attach and detach?  Tongue
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« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2005, 06:01:22 PM »

The two different models is really silly; can't argue that.  I never got that upset over it though -- until official annoucements are made, I consider it all just talk trying to create a buzz.

But yet the more I think about it, I didn't use my XBox harddrive for anything except saving games and some Halo2 map downloads.  If the $399 edition of the 360 didn't include the wireless controller and the component cables, this might actually be something I'd have to pause and think about.  As it stands, I'm still looking forward to opening mine up whenever my local EB gets their second shipment.
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« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2005, 08:43:33 PM »

Quote from: "mytocles"
 IF the 360 hard drive is easy to remove - it's location makes it easy, but I don't know how it attaches.


Well its got to be designed so your "average" consumer can hook it up, so I'm sure its fairly easy too do.
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« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2005, 08:59:56 PM »

Quote from: "Laner"
Quote from: "-Lord Ebonstone-"
Oh pff, it's copyright 2002.  Dredging up a comic that old or fuck, posting any Penny Arcade comic is just as bad a geek sin as the cliche 'M$'.

And yet it remains incredibly accurate...
Lamer, you're really falling behind on your personal attacks against me.  Step it up some, son... I'm beginning to think you've lost interest in your spiteful crusade.
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Calvin
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« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2005, 09:24:11 PM »

Quote from: "-Lord Ebonstone-"
Quote from: "Laner"
Quote from: "-Lord Ebonstone-"
Oh pff, it's copyright 2002.  Dredging up a comic that old or fuck, posting any Penny Arcade comic is just as bad a geek sin as the cliche 'M$'.

And yet it remains incredibly accurate...
Lamer, you're really falling behind on your personal attacks against me.  Step it up some, son... I'm beginning to think you've lost interest in your spiteful crusade.


Guys cut it out. Let's not make every thread derail happy like the other forum. Come on guys, back to how badly J. Allard has bullshited us for 6 months.
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« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2005, 09:35:41 PM »

Personally everything prior to the machine coming off the production line is speculation and I take it as such.  I wonder was there this much outrage over the PS2 which failed to deliver on many a promise? I will be buying a 360 and it has nothing to do with Microsofts decision to release 2 different sku's, or due to promises that were eluded to in the past while the hype machine was running full force.  I like what I see in the games and that is reason enough for me.  Every company in the world likes to make big promises to entice the consumer and they aren't always able to back it up.  Sometimes the fantastical ideas businessmen have just don't work out and so a comprimise happens.  When Microsoft saw what the cost would be to have every 360 with a hard drive, reality set in, plain and simple.

If I listened to all the hype and reports and articles that have been written over the years then I would be outraged over the fact that I don't have a flying car, that there is yet to be domestic space travel, no lunar colonies, no robotic servants/maids etc......instead I choose to live in reality and let what happens happen.
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Calvin
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« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2005, 10:05:05 PM »

Quote from: "Arkon"
Personally everything prior to the machine coming off the production line is speculation and I take it as such.  I wonder was there this much outrage over the PS2 which failed to deliver on many a promise? I will be buying a 360 and it has nothing to do with Microsofts decision to release 2 different sku's, or due to promises that were eluded to in the past while the hype machine was running full force.  I like what I see in the games and that is reason enough for me.  Every company in the world likes to make big promises to entice the consumer and they aren't always able to back it up.  Sometimes the fantastical ideas businessmen have just don't work out and so a comprimise happens.  When Microsoft saw what the cost would be to have every 360 with a hard drive, reality set in, plain and simple.

If I listened to all the hype and reports and articles that have been written over the years then I would be outraged over the fact that I don't have a flying car, that there is yet to be domestic space travel, no lunar colonies, no robotic servants/maids etc......instead I choose to live in reality and let what happens happen.
Listen Arkon, what you are saying is fine. It makes sense. It's correct for a different situation, but it's not applicable here. The issue is that Allard and Bach misled not only us, but developers and publishers as well, and I know this for a fact. At E3, and after (which, for the record, was 6 months before the launch of the 360), Allard and Robbie Back swore up one side and down the other that there was ONE SKU, and it came with a HDD. Developers were building their games around it, consumers were planning their purchases for it. It was 6 months before launch. Do you honestly, in any world, think that they decided 3 months ago when the dual SKU launches were announced to have two versions? That, frankly, is unpossible. They needed to have manufacturing specs for both machines, hell, they needed to be in manufacturing. They needed to have marketing and press materials for them. They needed to have a strategy for how to sell this. Bach and Allard got up at E3, told you, me, other gamers, and most game developers banking on their new system that there was one system, it would come with a HDD, and it would be the second coming. They lied. The flat-out, straight up, no joke, lied. At some point, they got so scared of Sony, that they felt it was important to have a console, even a shitty, bastardized console, out at the 299.99 price point at launch. Because for some reason they thought in the long run that would impress some nameless group of people that I doubt exist. No one in the business community, the financial analysis community, the gaming community, the developing/publishing community-NO ONE thinks it was a good idea. No one thinks their reasons make any sense or ring true.

They lied to us, and in a way, screwed everyone over by denying us the possibility of a standard SKU and a standard HDD. Maybe it wasn't used much in this gen, but have you seen the titles coming out? I don't believe for one moment that a game like Oblivion would not benefit tremendously from a standardized hard drive.

Listen, I am as big a Microsoft apologist as anyone on this board. I love the XBox, I will love the 360 I am sure, and I know I will buy it day one. But I am getting tired of being told I don't understand business or expectations are made to be broken. I get how it works, I really do and this, right here, what Microsoft did, was bad business. The lie wasn't small enough to get past us without trouble. It was too big, and too important.

In about a year I imagine they will cease selling or supporting the core system, and only certain games will come out that will be playable on it. If Sony comes with a HDD standard you can expect that sooner rather than later.

I know this is kind of like arguing over nothing. We can't change it now, we are going to get what we are going to get, and we are probably going to be happy with it. But don't tell me I am wrong for being pissed off. They screwed the pooch with this one, and no amount of "plans change" is going to convince me that they didn't know they were lying when they did it.
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« Reply #35 on: October 11, 2005, 11:49:55 PM »

Calvin is wrong about one thing. J Allard et al did not lie to developers. They were told for some time not to expect a HDD with every package, and to develop games to function without it. They told the rest of us that there would be one SKU and it would have the HDD. I don't think anyone is really bitching about the price point, either. $400 for a kick-ass console is a fair price. $400 for a (slightly) crippled one isn't.
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« Reply #36 on: October 11, 2005, 11:59:00 PM »

Quote from: "adamsappel"
Calvin is wrong about one thing. J Allard et al did not lie to developers. They were told for some time not to expect a HDD with every package, and to develop games to function without it.


Actually they were told to be able to support the configuration where no hard disk would be inserted into the 360.  More than one developer has stated that they assumed this was due to the fact that the hard disks were removable, and MS had never specifically told them it was because they were going to sell a version without a HD.  Granted, I think they were given enough of a notice to make any required changes (it sounded like this happened shortly after E3) but a couple developers have said that they had to change the design of some of its games features due to this 'revelation'.

I agree with Calvin - just call a spade a spade and own up to the fact that you're only doing this to prevent the 'clueless mommys' from balking at the price tag; don't try to tell us that we are going to "look back at this decision and say it was great for the market".
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« Reply #37 on: October 12, 2005, 02:11:25 AM »

Quote from: "Calvin"
Quote from: "Arkon"
Personally everything prior to the machine coming off the production line is speculation and I take it as such.  I wonder was there this much outrage over the PS2 which failed to deliver on many a promise? I will be buying a 360 and it has nothing to do with Microsofts decision to release 2 different sku's, or due to promises that were eluded to in the past while the hype machine was running full force.  I like what I see in the games and that is reason enough for me.  Every company in the world likes to make big promises to entice the consumer and they aren't always able to back it up.  Sometimes the fantastical ideas businessmen have just don't work out and so a comprimise happens.  When Microsoft saw what the cost would be to have every 360 with a hard drive, reality set in, plain and simple.

If I listened to all the hype and reports and articles that have been written over the years then I would be outraged over the fact that I don't have a flying car, that there is yet to be domestic space travel, no lunar colonies, no robotic servants/maids etc......instead I choose to live in reality and let what happens happen.
Listen Arkon, what you are saying is fine. It makes sense. It's correct for a different situation, but it's not applicable here. The issue is that Allard and Bach misled not only us, but developers and publishers as well, and I know this for a fact. At E3, and after (which, for the record, was 6 months before the launch of the 360), Allard and Robbie Back swore up one side and down the other that there was ONE SKU, and it came with a HDD. Developers were building their games around it, consumers were planning their purchases for it. It was 6 months before launch. Do you honestly, in any world, think that they decided 3 months ago when the dual SKU launches were announced to have two versions? That, frankly, is unpossible. They needed to have manufacturing specs for both machines, hell, they needed to be in manufacturing. They needed to have marketing and press materials for them. They needed to have a strategy for how to sell this. Bach and Allard got up at E3, told you, me, other gamers, and most game developers banking on their new system that there was one system, it would come with a HDD, and it would be the second coming. They lied. The flat-out, straight up, no joke, lied. At some point, they got so scared of Sony, that they felt it was important to have a console, even a shitty, bastardized console, out at the 299.99 price point at launch. Because for some reason they thought in the long run that would impress some nameless group of people that I doubt exist. No one in the business community, the financial analysis community, the gaming community, the developing/publishing community-NO ONE thinks it was a good idea. No one thinks their reasons make any sense or ring true.

They lied to us, and in a way, screwed everyone over by denying us the possibility of a standard SKU and a standard HDD. Maybe it wasn't used much in this gen, but have you seen the titles coming out? I don't believe for one moment that a game like Oblivion would not benefit tremendously from a standardized hard drive.

Listen, I am as big a Microsoft apologist as anyone on this board. I love the XBox, I will love the 360 I am sure, and I know I will buy it day one. But I am getting tired of being told I don't understand business or expectations are made to be broken. I get how it works, I really do and this, right here, what Microsoft did, was bad business. The lie wasn't small enough to get past us without trouble. It was too big, and too important.

In about a year I imagine they will cease selling or supporting the core system, and only certain games will come out that will be playable on it. If Sony comes with a HDD standard you can expect that sooner rather than later.

I know this is kind of like arguing over nothing. We can't change it now, we are going to get what we are going to get, and we are probably going to be happy with it. But don't tell me I am wrong for being pissed off. They screwed the pooch with this one, and no amount of "plans change" is going to convince me that they didn't know they were lying when they did it.


 - Where did I ever say you were wrong for being pissed?  I stated my own personal opinion, and how I feel.  I didn't direct my post at anyone.

 - Manufacturing specs...they are the same base system, same manufacturing specs, just different accessories in the box.

 - Wether we think thier decisions make sense or not, they are providing a luxury item, not a neccessity.  They can do as they please.  If we don't like it, we won't buy it and we show Microsoft how we feel the only way we can, with our wallets.  They didn't screw is in any way shape or form.

 - The fact still remains that the HDD was supposed to revolutionize this gen via the XBox and next to no one used it.  If the 360 was one SKU with HDD standard, but PS3 comes out without a HDD, do you think a single third party developer would actually try to utilise the HDD when making a game that is for multiple systems when only 1 system has the HDD?  

As much as I would have loved for the 360 to have been only 1 SKU and HDD standard, this didn't happen.
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RamPanther
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« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2005, 02:33:08 AM »

Quote
The 360 will be the XBox all over again, aka, a vapid system for sports and racing games with the occasional Halo...


You can't really mean this. After all:


Dai Senryaku VII
Otogi
Otogi II
Deathrow
Crimson Skies
Phantom Dust
Breakdown
Phantom Crash
Chronicles of Riddick
Fatal Frame I and II
Psychonauts
Fable
Oddworld: Stranger's Wrath
Sudeki
Mechassault
Steel Battalion

The list goes on and on...


And in regards to not having a HD as a necessity, I'm absolutely ecstatic about this. If you ever lost all your saved games because of a dead HD, or if you ever wanted to transfer a saved game to a memory stick so you could show your friend (only to discover it cannot be transferred) you'd feel my pain.
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CeeKay
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« Reply #39 on: October 13, 2005, 03:19:11 AM »

Quote
Actually they were told to be able to support the configuration where no hard disk would be inserted into the 360. More than one developer has stated that they assumed this was due to the fact that the hard disks were removable, and MS had never specifically told them it was because they were going to sell a version without a HD.


What, did they think  the HD would be out catching some rays or something?    I don't know about you, but I don't see my 360 HD being a nice coffee table centerpiece.
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